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[Toxi]

Absolutely not. Items require skill to properly use and evade.

Please tell me how the Fox player could have properly used and evaded the random items here.

 

[BGBW]

If the skill required to properly use and evade items were comparable instead of wildly unbalanced then West Coast smashers would still be using them. It's exactly the same skewed risk/reward scenario that leads to the evasion clause.

Is there something special about west coast players that makes their opinion of particular interest over say the rest of the world?

 

[Toxi]

Is there something special about west coast players that makes their opinion of particular interest over say the rest of the world?

No, but they were the last to drop items in the states.

 

[Troubled Bat]

Isaac is coming out of his Assist Trophy status, and becoming a playable character. With Matthew being an alternate costume. There is no doubt!

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Please tell me how the Fox player could have properly used and evaded the random items here.

Lmao

 

[BGBW]

No, but they were the last to drop items in the states.

I'm pretty sure there are still people in the States who use items.

 

[Tomohawk]

I think currently how items are in smash they destroy what little balance there is. Thats not to say items dont belong in a competitive environment. nintendo just hasn't implemented a way for items to be acceptable in that environment.

 

[Dryk]

I usually don't have items on, and I don't think I'm a snob for it, either. I just have more fun maneuvering around without being interrupted constantly by random shenanigans. Sakurai made the core mechanics of dashing, jumping, dodging and rolling so fun that I simply prefer to have the room to appreciate it.

I do love setting Pokeballs to Very High and playing an all-Pokémon match on the Pokémon stages, however. Fandom overload!

This is how my friends gravitated towards items in Melee too, we realised that at some point all we were doing with beam swords was throwing them at each other because otherwise they were just getting in the way of the core mechanics.

Is there something special about west coast players that makes their opinion of particular interest over say the rest of the world?

They started with more partyish rules than the East, East went full 1v1, no items, final destination. They eventually met in the middle after the great unification wars of 1968.

 

[StreetsAhead]

OMG today's pic is clearly Sakurai trolling about how there's going to be playable Waddle Dee.

 

[SkullHydra]

I'm pretty sure there are still people in the States who use items.

I still use items. I tend to enjoy that extra bit of randomness to keep me on my toes. And if those items cost me the game, so be it.

 

[Deap92x]

I am surprised how many people here play with items LMAO.

 

[Toxi]

I'm pretty sure there are still people in the States who use items.

Yes, there are.

You're unlikely to find a tournament that uses items these days though. Items were dropped from tournaments on the West Coast.

 

[Freezie KO]

[url="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7EFx0-Zkn54]Please tell me how the Fox player could have properly used and evaded the random items here.[/url]

I don't think tournaments or any competitive play should use items. I even enjoy casual play without items.

That said, the Fox in that video didn't play that very well considering the items.

First item, he simply gets a capsule thrown at him. He stood there, watching, as it hit his face. He could've just easily shielded or evaded it.

Second item, he attacks a capsule. That capsule recently appeared, but given the speed that Fox is floating towards it with his nair, I think he could've changed direction. In fact, he still had his double jump. If you strike a container, you risk an explosion. That's just a rule of the game.

The third item is the star. Fox forces a confrontation with Sheik directly on top of a barrel with them both attacking. This is going to lead to only a few options. It explodes, a neutral item drops out, or a powered item lands in one of their hands. This time it happened to be a star that landed on Sheik. The star was probably the most "random" of these items, but that confrontation was easily avoidable.

The last one is a repeat of the second item. Fox, for no reason, decides to jump up and drill a barrel that's just sitting there. It explodes, but again, that is a very defined risk when attacking containers.

Not to say that all item play is "fair", but when you dissect that clip, it's not nearly as bad as it appears.

 

[JoeM86]

This is how my friends gravitated towards items in Melee too, we realised that at some point all we were doing with beam swords was throwing them at each other because otherwise they were just getting in the way of the core mechanics.

The items are a major part of the game's core mechanics. They can't get in the way of themselves.

 

[Poltergust]

I'm pretty sure there are still people in the States who use items.

Items are perfectly fine to use outside of a competitive setting. Even I play with items if I'm up for something a little different.

 

[Dryk]

I agree it's not a very good demonstration

 

[Tomohawk]

I think alot of people assume items being ramdom is why their bad competitively. Theres nothing wrong with random elements in a competitive setting. In fact it makes the game more enjoyable. examples being stitch faces and missfires. As long as one can react to the randomn element and it has an equal chance of benefiting both players then it is acceptable. Unfortunately the current setup of items isnt like that.

 

[Dimitri LH]

Yeah, I wouldn't say that confirms parasol. Waddle Dees were already shown using them in the Smash Direct.

HA! Keep adding surprises to these.

 

[Banjotanooki]

Yeah, I wouldn't say that confirms parasol. Waddle Dees were already shown using them in the Smash Direct.

LOL, keep doing these every day, ignore what people say.

 

[DisconnectD]

YES, and at times even more than lurking. more like reading thru the new pages then waiting up hitting refresh to see if anyone has said anything. it can be quite a mental strain to keep watching conversations which you are not involved in.

fun fact i also stalked neogaf very closely when the original scribblenauts game was being set to release, and i recognize a fair amount of you guys from there, which is impressive since that was a couple years back.

well yea, love the gaf community, and love smash bros like no other

Haha.. same here dude. We are twins! I mainly recognize ShockingAlberto and his Conan Scribblenauts Avatar that he still is rockin, ha.

Welcome officially to the fold.

 

[BGBW]

The Official South London Smash Scene uses items. I would know since I run it.

Also do people assume when others say they use items they have them all turned on. I have about 50% of them turned off.

 

[SmithnCo]

I play with and without items because smash has a revolutionary feature where you can change the options

 

[Pietepiet]

I play with and without items because smash has a revolutionary feature where you can change the options

This. I can't believe people are still arguing about what the "correct" way to play Smash is...

 

[Regulus Tera]

Absolutely not. Items require skill to properly use and evade.

Super Sonic three-stocking people in one Smash Ball approves of this message.

The Official South London Smash Scene uses items. I would know since I run it.

Also do people assume when others say they use items they have them all turned on. I have about 50% of them turned off.

I'm curious now. How do you define which items are tournament-legal or not?

 

[Poltergust]

I think alot of people assume items being ramdom is why their bad competitively. Theres nothing wrong with random elements in a competitive setting. In fact it makes the game more enjoyable. examples being stitch faces and missfires. As long as one can react to the randomn element and it has an equal chance of benefiting both players then it is acceptable. Unfortunately the current setup of items isnt like that.

No, that's not how it works. It has little to do with reactions, and the random item spawns do actually have an equal chance of benefiting both players.

The issue is with control. You can some semblance of control when you pull up a turnip or get a misfire, because you as a player intentionally did those moves.

Item spawns, on the other hand, is something players have absolutely no control over. You cannot control what item will spawn, where it will spawn, or when it will spawn. As a result, you can lose to something well beyond the control of your opponent. Your opponent didn't beat you, the RNG did. Same thing goes for if you win due to an item spawn. There's no sense of accomplishment for hitting an off-stage opponent with a Bob-omb that just happened to spawn right next to you. Something like that is completely unacceptable in a competitive environment, as it undermines skill in favor of luck.

There's a reason why we also have a limited stage list for tournaments as well, and randomness is a big part of determining stage legality.

 

[Tomohawk]

The Official South London Smash Scene uses items. I would know since I run it.

Also do people assume when others say they use items they have them all turned on. I have about 50% of them turned off.

Is there a reason for only 50% being on.

 

[SaintMadeOfPlaster]

I'm a bit worried, long term, about what the For Glory mode might mean for future Smash titles.

Odds are, the serious competitive community won't be using For Glory mode often. Each character has stages they are good on and stages they are bad on, and the current competitive scene embraces that. In fact, Final Destination is one of the least played stages in the current competitive landscape.

Instead, I imagine most online tourneys will be in For Fun mode with custom rules (items turned off, 4-stock, 8 mins, etc.). Now, when Sakurai and co. look and see that there's not a thriving competitive community on For Glory mode, there's a good chance they'll look at it and think "well, looks like catering to the competitive scene was a waste of resources..."

They're already clearly unable to look at the fighting game community and realize that Melee still has a vibrant competitive fan base. Nintendo seems to instead look at its own data and come up with its own conclusions that way.

 

[Toxi]

The Official South London Smash Scene uses items. I would know since I run it.

Also do people assume when others say they use items they have them all turned on. I have about 50% of them turned off.

Can I see your rules set?

Most people assume all items turned on because otherwise you have to deal with the debate of which items are over the line. Pokeballs and Starmen seem obvious.

 

[1upmuffin]

I'm a bit worried, long term, about what the For Glory mode might mean for future Smash titles.

Odds are, the serious competitive community won't be using For Glory mode often. Each character has stages they are good on and stages they are bad on, and the current competitive scene embraces that. In fact, Final Destination is one of the least played stages in the current competitive landscape.

Instead, I imagine most online tourneys will be in For Fun mode with custom rules (items turned off, 4-stock, 8 mins, etc.). Now, when Sakurai and co. look and see that there's not a thriving competitive community on For Glory mode, there's a good chance they'll look at it and think "well, looks like catering to the competitive scene was a waste of resources..."

They're already clearly unable to look at the fighting game community and realize that Melee still has a vibrant competitive fan base. Nintendo seems to instead look at its own data and come up with its own conclusions that way.

That wouldn't be For Fun mode then, For Fun and For Glory are just matchmaking. Custom matches are separate from those two.

 

[Poltergust]

I'm a bit worried, long term, about what the For Glory mode might mean for future Smash titles.

Odds are, the serious competitive community won't be using For Glory mode often. Each character has stages they are good on and stages they are bad on, and the current competitive scene embraces that. In fact, Final Destination is one of the least played stages in the current competitive landscape.

Instead, I imagine most online tourneys will be in For Fun mode with custom rules (items turned off, 4-stock, 8 mins, etc.). Now, when Sakurai and co. look and see that there's not a thriving competitive community on For Glory mode, there's a good chance they'll look at it and think "well, looks like catering to the competitive scene was a waste of resources..."

They're already clearly unable to look at the fighting game community and realize that Melee still has a vibrant competitive fan base. Nintendo seems to instead look at its own data and come up with its own conclusions that way.

Online tourneys will be completely ignoring For Fun/For Glory altogether because they're only used when fighting against random people online.

 

[SaintMadeOfPlaster]

That wouldn't be For Fun mode then, For Fun and For Glory are just matchmaking. Custom matches are separate from those two.

Online tourneys will be completely ignoring For Fun/For Glory altogether because they're only used when fighting against random people online.

Ah, I wasn't aware it was only for random matchmaking. Thank God.

Never mind, then. Carry on.

 

[Poltergust]

Are you sure? I thought I remember the Direct saying that For Fun lets you have custom rules.

Yes, that's true. And...? =P

EDIT: NO NINJA EDIT FOR YOU.

 

[KHlover]

Please tell me how the Fox player could have properly used and evaded the random items here.

He def. could have caught that first capsule. That would already have changed this entire sequence of events.

 

[Poltergust]

He def. could have caught that first capsule. That would already have changed this entire sequence of events.

Assuming that these guys usually play with items off, I think he was just surprised that an item spawned. He sort of just stood there lol.

 

[Benzychenz]

He def. could have caught that first capsule. That would already have changed this entire sequence of events.

He doesn't move in the entire time the Sheik player jumps up, grabs the capsule, drops back down, throws it, and it flies through the air and hits him.

Lol.

 

[BGBW]

I'm curious now. How do you define which items are tournament-legal or not?

Is there a reason for only 50% being on.

The ones that I like at the time.

Most people assume all items turned on because otherwise you have to deal with the debate of which items are over the line. Pokeballs and Starmen seem obvious.

Easy way round that, my house my rules. Simple innit.

 

[Tomohawk]

No, that's not how it works. It has little to do with reactions, and the random item spawns do actually have an equal chance of benefiting both players.

The issue is with control. You can some semblance of control when you pull up a turnip or get a misfire, because you as a player intentionally did those moves.

Item spawns, on the other hand, is something players have absolutely no control over. You cannot control what item will spawn, where it will spawn, or when it will spawn. As a result, you can lose to something well beyond the control of your opponent. Your opponent didn't beat you, the RNG did. Same thing goes for if you win due to an item spawn. There's no sense of accomplishment for hitting an off-stage opponent with a Bob-omb that just happened to spawn right next to you. Something like that is completely unacceptable in a competitive environment, as it undermines skill in favor of luck.

There's a reason why we also have a limited stage list for tournaments as well, and randomness is a big part of determining stage legality.

I dont think it benefits characters equally as it currently is since certain characters like ice climbers can pick up two, different animation lengths for certain characters with items and more mobile characters can get items which i think makes the game more unbalanced then it already is.

Also I disagree with the assertion that random item spawns are uncompetitive because of control. For example the bob-bomb has an equal likelihood of appearing infront of both of you and therefore both of you have an equal chance of getting it. For example stages like halbred are legal in brawl. They have stage hazards that affect the player and which player it affects is out of the players control, but since there equal chance of both getting targeted and its easy to react to. The problem with items arises when say the bob-omb drops mid attack animation and you hit it. There's no way you could react to that. That's why I think the reason items are banned in competition is because of the inability to react to certain ones and how it messes with balance. Hopefully this changes in the future.

 

[KHlover]

Assuming that these guys usually play with items off, I think he was just surprised that an item spawned. He sort of just stood there lol.

He doesn't move in the entire time the Sheik player jumps up, grabs the capsule, drops back down, throws it, and it flies through the air and hits him.

Lol.

Just watched again...that was a full second without any input. This either is staged or the Fox player simply sucks.

Holmes, we've cracked the case

EDIT:
More and more possibilities incoming. He could have reflected the first capsule. He also could have grabbed the second capsule instead of attacking it/leave it be and use reflector - he can jump out of that in 1 frame should he need to afterall. Not jumping towards the exploding barrel with an invincible Sheik chasing him also would have increased his life expectancy. Of course he couldn't know that the barrel would explode, but what good would that barrel have done him anyways? Way to take an unnecessary risk, cowboy.

Yeah...he sucks.

 

[Jagsrock]

items I usually turn on are the Beam swords, pokeballs,homerun bats,and sticky bombs, mines. My favorite though is only pokeballs on and highest frequency.

 

[Alfredo]

Speaking of items, I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but do you guys think Legendary Pokemon will only appear out of Masterballs and not regular Pokeballs? I think that'd be a neat feature to ban OP Pokemon by turning Masterballs off while keeping weaker Pokemon still in play.

 

[HawthorneKitty]

Speaking of items, I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but do you guys think Legendary Pokemon will only appear out of Masterballs and not regular Pokeballs? I think that'd be a neat feature to ban OP Pokemon by turning Masterballs off while keeping weaker Pokemon still in play.

Pretty sure Palkia came from Pokeball in the direct.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Speaking of items, I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but do you guys think Legendary Pokemon will only appear out of Masterballs and not regular Pokeballs? I think that'd be a neat feature to ban OP Pokemon by turning Masterballs off while keeping weaker Pokemon still in play.

Pretty sure that it's this.

 

[SkullHydra]

Pretty sure Palkia came from Pokeball in the direct.

Yup.

 

[RiggyRob]

I'm sure it's been mentioned in the thread, but it sums up my opinion perfectly: Real men use items.

Edit:

Speaking of items, I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but do you guys think Legendary Pokemon will only appear out of Masterballs and not regular Pokeballs? I think that'd be a neat feature to ban OP Pokemon by turning Masterballs off while keeping weaker Pokemon still in play.

But the legendary Pokemon are the most fun to use.

 

[Poltergust]

I dont think it benefits characters equally as it currently is since certain characters like ice climbers can pick up two, different animation lengths for certain characters with items and more mobile characters can get items which i think makes the game more unbalanced then it already is.

Fair enough, I suppose.

Also I disagree with the assertion that random item spawns are uncompetitive because of control. For example the bob-bomb has an equal likelihood of appearing infront of both of you and therefore both of you have an equal chance of getting it. For example stages like halbred are legal in brawl. They have stage hazards that affect the player and which player it affects is out of the players control, but since there equal chance of both getting targeted and its easy to react to. The problem with items arises when say the bob-omb drops mid attack animation and you hit it. There's no way you could react to that. That's why I think the reason items are banned in competition is because of the inability to react to certain ones and how it messes with balance. Hopefully this changes in the future.

I didn't say that the amount of time a player can react to items (and other random elements, like Halberd's stage hazards) isn't a factor, it's just not nearly as much of a factor as not being able to control items (which you didn't really argue against).

Seriously, if there was a systematic, nonrandom way to spawn items, then they would be looked at more favorably competitive-wise because it would simply add more ways to play the game with skill. There's a reason why people are OK with Peach pulling Bob-ombs out of the ground or with Mr. Game & Watch getting a 9. Once control is taken away from the players, it essentially ceases to be a fair 1-on-1 fight.

Let me go back to the Halberd example. Yes, the stage is legal, but it's also purely a counterpick stage. The point of the stage is that it's not supposed to be a fair 1-on-1 fight. That's why you would take someone there, because it would favor you a lot more than it would favor your opponent.

 

[SaintMadeOfPlaster]

The game is definitely more fun with items...unless you're just stuck in a competitive mindset and get too upset about losing due to an RNG.

However, if you really want to test somebody's skill at the game (especially in the form of a tournament), then thinking items are ok is ridiculous. It throws any balance the game might have out of the window, introduces FAR too much random RNG nonsense, etc.

Some people like to point to Peach's stitch-faces and Game & Watch's 9-Hammer as an example of randomness that is already in the game as an argument to support items. However, those characters obviously have other weaknesses that make up for their potential to randomly KO. Otherwise, everybody would just main one of those 2 and spam their attacks that have a random chance to KO.

Two different rule-sets for two different styles of play. Neither one is inherently better than the other. I like both. There's nothing worse than the guy at a Smash party complaining about items being turned on the whole time. On the other hand, there's also nothing worse than people saying that items aren't a problem in skill-based, competitive matches.

 

[RMS Gigantic]

Even at its most random, Smash Bros. is still less random/luck-based than poker tournaments, and followers and players of those events still count them as being highly competitive!

 

[SaintMadeOfPlaster]

Even at its most random, Smash Bros. is still less random/luck-based than poker tournaments, and followers and players of those events still count them as being highly competitive!

Not a good comparison. The fundamental nature of poker is that it relies on luck and being able to hide when you're lucky.

The fundamental nature of competitive Smash is being able to read an opponent, quickly take advantage of a situation, and have the chops to execute what you want to execute quickly.

 

[soviet prince]

The West also got Shulk, Palutena, and Chorus Men. The first two are also highly requested characters in the West, and the while the Chorus Men weren't requested anywhere, Rhythm Heaven is popular in both regions. You might as well be saying "Japan got Ike" about Brawl.

shulk is the top 4 character demanded in japan and while the game is good shuly is not really all that popular here. plalutena is also wanted more in japan and think she popular here because everyone expected her because she is sakurai new baby, rhythem heaven aint that popular in america but it's big in japan.

Dude, the fact of the matter is that we all know you wouldn't be saying any of this shit if Ridley was confirmed. The crazy part is he's not even deconfirmed and you're acting like Sakurai is the worst dude ever. Palutena, chorus kids, shulk, Ridley, NONE of those dudes are confirmed or deconfirmed and SO MUCH of this game is still up in the air. There's so much left to be seen and it's way too early to start claiming that Sakurai doesn't love you.

oh no I would not if ridley and rool is in because then sakurai would have hit the top 2 characters in the west( rool argueably, ridley no contest). Even I have to admit ridley chances did a skydive as soon as the boss thing was shown and when sal leaked his second group of newcomers. I am not claiming sakurai does not love me personaly I actually could care less, it's that he does not care enough for the western side to do proper research. How does it make proper buisness since to leave out ridely when you can not even go one page in a smash thread without him popping up.

 

[Beaniedude]

Items forever!
It's more fun that way!