Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 8: Put mii in, coach

Oh, I read some impressions from a Zelda player on smashboards and it sounds like Zelda's kicks (forward air and back air) really suck in this game. They still have to be sweetspotted but they really don't... KO very well.
 
Revven said:
This is the kind of shit that's toxic. Stop it, you're not being any better than the people who are being overreactionary.

Look, let me explain this again: it has nothing to do with making the game like Melee. Melee is just the closest, no, the pinnacle example of a competitive game in the Smash series. People compare to it because they really don't know what to describe in it that makes it so good for competition. They just use it as an example because it's quick and easy. Oh and I should clarify, by they I mean the low-mid level players that are shitposting on smashboards and r/smashbros. The people who actually compete at tournaments could describe it very easily, describe what they'd want out of Smash 4 without using the word 'Melee'.

Let me tell you what makes Melee competitive: movement options out the wazoo. Your dash/run can be stopped by crouching, this gives you access to both your down smash and down tilt as approach options. From a crouch, you could then switch to standing instead and use a different tilt or even a different smash attack. That is just one example of the kind of movement option that makes Melee what it is. And that, again, is not even wavedashing. It is an intuitive option that even a casual player can benefit from knowing, just as much as a casual player benefits from being able to shield the end of their run to gain access to their grounded moves.

And I guarantee you that run -> crouch was intentionally programmed in Melee, just like run -> shield works in all the games. It's something you can do out of your run just like you can do an Usmash out of your run with the C-stick. It doesn't hurt casual players at all to have this option in the game yet Sakurai took it out.

All people want are intuitive, non-glitch, movement options. And an ability to use those options to expand the game at a higher level -- whether that's through combos, mind games, etc etc. That is seriously it. And if you somehow have qualms with people being able to crouch out of their run, you have some serious issues on this.

Again, that is just one example of a movement option. Another example that wouldn't hurt casual players is one that exists in all platformers: momentum being carried from your run into your jump. What that does is it allows characters with faster running speeds to leap across the stage to approach a character. What happens right now in Brawl and seemingly Smash 4 is this momentum is not carried and therefore your character essentially is awkwardly moving in the air as if they just jumped from a standing position. It is logical physics, as well, because when you run in any platformer (hell, even Mario games) you carry the momentum from your jump. It was amazing to have this in Melee and not just because it was in Melee but because every character could make use of it and it helped them in various ways to put up an offense on someone.

But it seems to be absent from Smash 4, again. Taking that particular option out only hurts characters that have speed built-in with them in mind such as Captain Falcon, Fox, Sonic, etc etc. You might say that's a good thing but again look at how Captain Falcon was in Brawl. He was terrible. A large part of that was because of the lack of this option existing in Brawl. Secondly, it might appear good because it makes the fast characters on the same playing field as the slower characters but in actuality the slower characters could make use of it this just as much. Characters like Mario, DK, and even Ganondorf had really good approach options just from this physics-related option that was in the game. And you can even see how they benefit from this in Project M, as PM re-added it.

If you have zero understanding of what makes competitive Smash, you shouldn't shit on people who do. There are definitely people who are overreacting and expressing themselves on gut reactions because they really don't want a game that will likely not advance the community forward. People want to like and play this game seriously but they can't if the game doesn't offer these kinds of options and from what people played and saw, the options aren't there. It's frustrating to, once again, not get heard from the developer of the series you love. You think after all these years, with so much tournament footage available on Youtube, they would have an understanding of what the competitive players are looking for: intuitive movement options.

I hope this post has been enlightening to some degree because man, I am so tired of posts like the above. It is not healthy for the entire community whatsoever. If you have nothing good to say, don't say it at all.
Click to expand...

Everyone should read this post.

Revven said:
Oh, I read some impressions from a Zelda player on smashboards and it sounds like Zelda's kicks (forward air and back air) really suck in this game. They still have to be sweetspotted but they really don't... KO very well.
Click to expand...

Lots of kill moves seem to be nerfed. Fox's up smash doesn't kill at like 120%. The stages are all so huge. Battlefield looked like Dreamland 64.
 
In Melee: WOAH GIGA BOWSER that's awesome I want to play that, get me hacks to make him playable

In Brawl: WOAH we get to play as Giga Bowser this is AWESOME

In Smash 4: Giga Bowser? Man that's so lame and makes no sense, give us something that makes sense for Bowser

the-shrug400.jpg
 
BassForever said:
In Melee: WOAH GIGA BOWSER that's awesome I want to play that, get me hacks to make him playable

In Brawl: WOAH we get to play as Giga Bowser this is AWESOME

In Smash 4: Giga Bowser? Man that's so lame and makes no sense, give us something that makes sense for Bowser

the-shrug400.jpg
Click to expand...

People grew up... or the more logical reason: you're reading the opinions of different people.
 
BassForever said:
In Melee: WOAH GIGA BOWSER that's awesome I want to play that, get me hacks to make him playable

In Brawl: WOAH we get to play as Giga Bowser this is AWESOME

In Smash 4: Giga Bowser? Man that's so lame and makes no sense, give us something that makes sense for Bowser

the-shrug400.jpg
Click to expand...

It was more like:

Before Brawl launched: Woah, we get to play as Giga Bowser! That is awesome!

After Brawl launched: Man, a lot of these final smashes are kind of lame. Hopefully they get fine tuned or some more attention the next go around.

Before Smash4: Oh, looks like Giga Bowser didn't.
 
BassForever said:
In Melee: WOAH GIGA BOWSER that's awesome I want to play that, get me hacks to make him playable

In Brawl: WOAH we get to play as Giga Bowser this is AWESOME

In Smash 4: Giga Bowser? Man that's so lame and makes no sense, give us something that makes sense for Bowser

the-shrug400.jpg
Click to expand...

Haha this represents me perfectly.

It's just that back in Brawl, it was a really awesome idea to transform him into Giga Bowser, but now the charm has worn off. Looking at characters with new FS taken straight from their games like Pit and Luigi is just more appealing. I feel the same way about Mario FS.

Brawl: YO MARIO SHINKU HADOKEN IS RAD

Smash 4: Aww man, it's back? Give him something form his games.
 
Anth0ny said:
Lots of kill moves seem to be nerfed. Fox's up smash doesn't kill at like 120%. The stages are all so huge. Battlefield looked like Dreamland 64.
Click to expand...

Honestly I wonder if there even any differences in stage boundary sizes in this game. Mushroom Kingdom U looked to have the same death boundary sizes as Battlefield did. Am I wrong? I'd like to be...
 
BassForever said:
In Melee: WOAH GIGA BOWSER that's awesome I want to play that, get me hacks to make him playable

In Brawl: WOAH we get to play as Giga Bowser this is AWESOME

In Smash 4: Giga Bowser? Man that's so lame and makes no sense, give us something that makes sense for Bowser

the-shrug400.jpg
Click to expand...

But I thought it was lame in Brawl.
 
Revven said:
This is the kind of shit that's toxic. Stop it, you're not being any better than the people who are being overreactionary.

Look, let me explain this again: it has nothing to do with making the game like Melee. Melee is just the closest, no, the pinnacle example of a competitive game in the Smash series. People compare to it because they really don't know what to describe in it that makes it so good for competition. They just use it as an example because it's quick and easy. Oh and I should clarify, by they I mean the low-mid level players that are shitposting on smashboards and r/smashbros. The people who actually compete at tournaments could describe it very easily, describe what they'd want out of Smash 4 without using the word 'Melee'.

Let me tell you what makes Melee competitive: movement options out the wazoo. Your dash/run can be stopped by crouching, this gives you access to both your down smash and down tilt as approach options. From a crouch, you could then switch to standing instead and use a different tilt or even a different smash attack. That is just one example of the kind of movement option that makes Melee what it is. And that, again, is not even wavedashing. It is an intuitive option that even a casual player can benefit from knowing, just as much as a casual player benefits from being able to shield the end of their run to gain access to their grounded moves.

And I guarantee you that run -> crouch was intentionally programmed in Melee, just like run -> shield works in all the games. It's something you can do out of your run just like you can do an Usmash out of your run with the C-stick. It doesn't hurt casual players at all to have this option in the game yet Sakurai took it out.

All people want are intuitive, non-glitch, movement options. And an ability to use those options to expand the game at a higher level -- whether that's through combos, mind games, etc etc. That is seriously it. And if you somehow have qualms with people being able to crouch out of their run, you have some serious issues on this.

Again, that is just one example of a movement option. Another example that wouldn't hurt casual players is one that exists in all platformers: momentum being carried from your run into your jump. What that does is it allows characters with faster running speeds to leap across the stage to approach a character. What happens right now in Brawl and seemingly Smash 4 is this momentum is not carried and therefore your character essentially is awkwardly moving in the air as if they just jumped from a standing position. It is logical physics, as well, because when you run in any platformer (hell, even Mario games) you carry the momentum from your jump. It was amazing to have this in Melee and not just because it was in Melee but because every character could make use of it and it helped them in various ways to put up an offense on someone.

But it seems to be absent from Smash 4, again. Taking that particular option out only hurts characters that have speed built-in with them in mind such as Captain Falcon, Fox, Sonic, etc etc. You might say that's a good thing but again look at how Captain Falcon was in Brawl. He was terrible. A large part of that was because of the lack of this option existing in Brawl. Secondly, it might appear good because it makes the fast characters on the same playing field as the slower characters but in actuality the slower characters could make use of it this just as much. Characters like Mario, DK, and even Ganondorf had really good approach options just from this physics-related option that was in the game. And you can even see how they benefit from this in Project M, as PM re-added it.

If you have zero understanding of what makes competitive Smash, you shouldn't shit on people who do. There are definitely people who are overreacting and expressing themselves on gut reactions because they really don't want a game that will likely not advance the community forward. People want to like and play this game seriously but they can't if the game doesn't offer these kinds of options and from what people played and saw, the options aren't there. It's frustrating to, once again, not get heard from the developer of the series you love. You think after all these years, with so much tournament footage available on Youtube, they would have an understanding of what the competitive players are looking for: intuitive movement options.

I hope this post has been enlightening to some degree because man, I am so tired of posts like the above. It is not healthy for the entire community whatsoever. If you have nothing good to say, don't say it at all.
Click to expand...
Dude, seriously, I can't thank you enough for doing this. I was actually going to write something like this myself but eventually I gave up and just wrote one sentence.

Ignorance needs to be called out.
 
BassForever said:
In Melee: WOAH GIGA BOWSER that's awesome I want to play that, get me hacks to make him playable

In Brawl: WOAH we get to play as Giga Bowser this is AWESOME

In Smash 4: Giga Bowser? Man that's so lame and makes no sense, give us something that makes sense for Bowser

the-shrug400.jpg
Click to expand...

Seriously, what the hell? lmao

Only thing I don't like about him this time is that primary colors don't really work well with him. :/
 
I'm looking for that pic of the 3 3rd party characters (Megaman, Pacman, & Sonic) standing there in Smash, with another shot below of a tombstone, ugly pacman, and Sonic's legs.

Can somebody help me find that? I've been scouring google for like 15 minutes.

NVM GOT IT!
 
Would Sakurai consider any concerns via tweets? I'm sending one (YES, in Japanese) but since it's limited to like 100 characters I want to make sure I nail my concerns.
 
HK-47 said:
Chron was an easy guess with how popular FEA was. Shulk and the Chorus Boys are definitely the most unlikely out of all the predictions, even including the first list.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but no, Wii Fit Trainer is truly unlikely compared to ANY other 1st/2nd party Nintendo character. Heck there are 3rd party characters that would make more sense then that.
 
BassForever said:
I'm sorry but no, Wii Fit Trainer is truly unlikely compared to ANY other 1st/2nd party Nintendo character. Heck there are 3rd party characters that would make more sense then that.
Click to expand...

That is true. I forgot about WFT. She and Chorus Kids are predictions no one was making.
 
R0ckman said:
Would Sakurai consider any concerns via tweets? I'm sending one (YES, in Japanese) but since it's limited to like 100 characters I want to make sure I nail my concerns.
Click to expand...

We have no idea if he reads any tweets he gets from fans, because as you know he did close his Twitter for awhile at one point last year to avoid fan speculation of the game. He probably gets tons of fan tweets a day, even. I very much doubt he takes any fan tweets seriously when it comes to suggestions or concerns. You could still try but I feel like the only way he would hear any concerns is if it was in a large bulk and even that is questionable to work.

Also, just as an aside... I noticed Bowser's back air was autocanceled (finished the move before landing) in this video. I can't tell if it's a short hop or full hop, though, but you can clearly see the move is quick enough for Bowser to finish before landing and not suffer any landing lag from the aerial (because its animation played out).

This will only be useful knowledge for a handful of moves though, I imagine. I didn't doubt you could finish an aerial and then land with no lag to begin with, though, so this isn't surprising.

ALSO, no more tilting the character select screen with the C-Stick. RIP cool feature. ;~;
 
Kouichi said:
Haha this represents me perfectly.

It's just that back in Brawl, it was a really awesome idea to transform him into Giga Bowser, but now the charm has worn off. Looking at characters with new FS taken straight from their games like Pit and Luigi is just more appealing. I feel the same way about Mario FS.

Brawl: YO MARIO SHINKU HADOKEN IS RAD

Smash 4: Aww man, it's back? Give him something form his games.
Click to expand...

Same. I think mega man changed my opinion. Once I saw how awesome a character could be if everything he did was directly pulled from his games, I wanted every character to only have moves that were directly pulled from their games. Then, megaman's final smash, while awesome, isn't from his games. He makes up for it, though, because it has other mega man characters represented. Palutena does this whole thing perfectly, too. Every move she has is from KI:U. It's great.

For some reason, moves that were invented just for smash bros are a bit disappointing to me, now. Once we saw luigi had the poltergust as his final smash, we all had this glimmer of hope that 'oh man, maybe EVERYONE'S final smash is from their games now!'

Nope :/
 
HK-47 said:
That is true. I forgot about WFT. She and Chorus Kids are predictions no one was making.
Click to expand...

Most believe the first leak because of Wii Fit Trainer because no one predicted her. They are just sceptical of the second because they don't want to fall for the trap of because they believe the first the second must be true.

People were predicting/wishing for a Rhythm Tengoku rep however.
 
I'm totally okay with the c-stick screen shaking being gone, was just a waste of time that made picking characters/options more difficult in multi player
 
BassForever said:
I dunno if I would have said Chorus Kids/Men, but if you had asked me "what's more believable WFT or a Rhythm Heaven rep" I'd probably have said a RH rep
Click to expand...

Ok but I'm talking Chorus Kids specifically. There are a bunch of RH characters I would have thought could be in Smash (and people were bandying about). They werent among them.
 
georly said:
Once we saw luigi had the poltergust as his final smash, we all had this glimmer of hope that 'oh man, maybe EVERYONE'S final smash is from their games now!'

Nope :/
Click to expand...
I like to think since they gave Snake's old smash to ZSS, they are giving Luigi's old Smash to Mewtwo. I still want to believe!
 
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