2014 FIFA World Cup |OT6| The beautiful game in all its thrilling glory

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Re: Regarding Player Development in the US

People who say the US is behind in soccer simply because our best athletes play other sports know nothing about youth soccer or even soccer in general. Lebron even if he focused solely on soccer most of his life, would probably make a mediocre soccer player.

Yes there are some common attributes that are shared across top athletes. But a great basketball player will not make a great soccer player if we're talking at the highest levels. Yes soccer players have gotten bigger and taller over the years, but there's still a ceiling. Someone who is '6'9 will not have the agility and center of gravity needed to have world class technical ability and change of speed of someone a foot shorter. There's always exceptions but just look at Peter Crouch. So it's not just about funneling all our best athletes toward soccer. They still need to have a proportional body type and posses exceptional balance and talent with their feet. Some kids you can throw a ball at their feet and after 15-20 minutes it almost feels like they were born with the ball at their feet. Other kids it sometimes takes years for them to look like a natural with the ball even if they are exceptional athletes.

Another huge thing and this is the biggest reason why we struggle to compete in soccer. Our whole youth and to pro system in America is based around high school and college. Generally you try to play well in high school so you get recognize by a top college. You then play baseball, football, or basketball at that top college and hope to get picked up by the pros. That's how it works for all the professional sports in America.

The problem is, this doesn't work at all for soccer. In the rest of the world, players get recruited at ages 7-9 years old and play at full-time soccer academies (often sponsored by major clubs) and then they turn pro around 16 or 18 at the latest. So in the US, the college system puts us at a severe disadvantage because they usually stay in high school until 18 and then spend another 4 years playing soccer at a college (which probably has mediocre to terrible quality soccer). American players don't get out of the system and turn pro until there about 22 years old. This puts us 4-6 years behind the equivalent European player. Imagine if Neymar wasn't at this World Cup but instead still stuck playing at Duke University coached by someone who doubles as a history professor.

If you look at the youth national tournaments, the US is actually pretty competitive with the rest of the world in the u17 age groups. But we just lose so much ground when the players are 16-22 years old.

Also in the US we have child labor laws where you can't sign kids to professional contracts. However in the rest of the world for the most part, there's no such rules. Clubs can have kids sign contracts and they own the rights to those 9-10 year olds. They in turn spend money developing those players, so hopefully when they get older they can sell the players for a transfer fee. It's a business and it's business that is incompatible with the US labor laws. So there isn't incentive to train little kids in soccer as intense in the US as in other parts of the world because there isn't a perceived payoff. Instead the Youth soccer system in America is "pay to play" and it's mostly composed of middle and upper middle class kids who can afford the club fees and travel.

This is the real reason why we are behind the technical curve with soccer in America. Not because Lebron is playing basketball.

[/realtalk]

This is why people should be rooting for the NCAA to be abolished and for college sports to go away. We shouldn't make world class athletes pretend to care about academics. It's absurd. Let NBA teams scout and sign guys as teenagers and develop them themselves.
 

Fularu

Banned
Re: Regarding Player Development in the US

People who say the US is behind in soccer simply because our best athletes play other sports know nothing about youth soccer or even soccer in general. Lebron even if he focused solely on soccer most of his life, would probably make a mediocre soccer player.

Yes there are some common attributes that are shared across top athletes. But a great basketball player will not make a great soccer player if we're talking at the highest levels. Yes soccer players have gotten bigger and taller over the years, but there's still a ceiling. Someone who is '6'9 will not have the agility and center of gravity needed to have world class technical ability and change of speed of someone a foot shorter. There's always exceptions but just look at Peter Crouch. So it's not just about funneling all our best athletes toward soccer. They still need to have a proportional body type and posses exceptional balance and talent with their feet. Some kids you can throw a ball at their feet and after 15-20 minutes it almost feels like they were born with the ball at their feet. Other kids it sometimes takes years for them to look like a natural with the ball even if they are exceptional athletes.

Another huge thing and this is the biggest reason why we struggle to compete in soccer. Our whole youth and to pro system in America is based around high school and college. Generally you try to play well in high school so you get recognize by a top college. You then play baseball, football, or basketball at that top college and hope to get picked up by the pros. That's how it works for all the professional sports in America.

The problem is, this doesn't work at all for soccer. In the rest of the world, players get recruited at ages 7-9 years old and play at full-time soccer academies (often sponsored by major clubs) and then they turn pro around 16 or 18 at the latest. So in the US, the college system puts us at a severe disadvantage because they usually stay in high school until 18 and then spend another 4 years playing soccer at a college (which probably has mediocre to terrible quality soccer). American players don't get out of the system and turn pro until there about 22 years old. This puts us 4-6 years behind the equivalent European player. Imagine if Neymar wasn't at this World Cup but instead still stuck playing at Duke University coached by someone who doubles as a history professor.

If you look at the youth national tournaments, the US is actually pretty competitive with the rest of the world in the u17 age groups. But we just lose so much ground when the players are 16-22 years old.

Also in the US we have child labor laws where you can't sign kids to professional contracts. However in the rest of the world for the most part, there's no such rules. Clubs can have kids sign contracts and they own the rights to those 9-10 year olds. They in turn spend money developing those players, so hopefully when they get older they can sell the players for a transfer fee. It's a business and it's business that is incompatible with the US labor laws. So there isn't incentive to train little kids in soccer as intense in the US as in other parts of the world because there isn't a perceived payoff. Instead the Youth soccer system in America is "pay to play" and it's mostly composed of middle and upper middle class kids who can afford the club fees and travel.

This is the real reason why we are behind the technical curve with soccer in America. Not because Lebron is playing basketball.

[/realtalk]

Indeed

Also the drafting system doesn't work for football, while it may work for most american sports (Basketball, Baseball and American Football), it just doesn't fit with how you nurture, build and design a football team, how you train your future stars, how you give them an identity, an ability to play with the best at a very young age.

The good thing about the american system, though, is that it gives many of its top sports athletes an education and a future once they're done playing.
 
I like how the system works for the NHL, where a majority of kids that are drafted are scouted as young as 14 years old. At that point should the team draft said player, they can either develop with their junior team until they're ready to play or play for their college team until they're ready.
 
I could not follow the thread for the match but just checked from the extra time and oh shit was this thread crazy.

Great game, I think the USA could have done a better job in the normal time but it is what it is, great effort and very entertaining match, specially extra time. They really gave their heart out and yes, you always want to win, but if you lose and your team gave all they had, at least that is also satisfying. Making better shots, passes comes from more work.

Good job USA and I am not from USA.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
I'm sure others have mentioned this but hats off to Belgium for being a really classy side too. Partly had to do with just such bad defensive pressure by the US but almost no diving by either side or cheap shots. Also really late I think it was Jones or someone got clocked hard with the ball and the Belgian player ran over to him. I hate that they beat us and were better but if you're gonna lose might as well be to a classy team while giving it your best.
 
the US lacked offense. They tried to pull the same things as they did in the Ghana game but without any goals. Going Greek Style can only get you so far when the counter-attack goes in your favor but when you shit the bed because you are getting outshot 4 to 1. You deserve to be eliminated
 

artist

Banned
you seem to have the most ridiculous vendettas. Except when it comes to the Indian cricket team. Then you just become a terrible poster.
Umm, I'm equally harsh on the Indian team.

They are shit and wont do squat in the England series.

Back to this, I think so far the best teams have been NED and COL. Then FRA & GER. And then BEL & ARG. I dont even want to name the other two.

1. NED, COL
3. FRA, GER
5. BEL
6. ARG


I could not follow the thread for the match but just checked from the extra time and oh shit was this thread crazy.

Great game, I think the USA could have done a better job in the normal time but it is what it is, great effort and very entertaining match, specially extra time. They really gave their heart out and yes, you always want to win, but if you lose and your team gave all they had, at least that is also satisfying. Making better shots, passes comes from more work.

Good job USA and I am not from USA.
This thinking still beats me. Good job USA? For what? Waking up in the second extra time? Letting so many shots on the goal?

Great job Howard and good job Yedlin. The team not so much.
 

Draconian

Member
I'm pretty happy with the way we played today. Not necessarily in terms of stats (well, outside of Howard saving just about everything), but we played with a lot of spirit and put in a great showing during this World Cup. Of course, as a Chelsea fan, it hurt pretty bad that Lukaku was involved in both goals. He does everything for every team he plays for except the one I care about. smh
 

alejob

Member
Don't kid yourselves, the USA group was not the group of death. It was a marketing ploy by the US media to bring attention and hype.

Uruguay, Italy, England and Costa Rica was the real group of death.
 

Slurmer

Banned
Don't kid yourselves, the USA group was not the group of death. It was a marketing ploy by the US media to bring attention and hype.

Uruguay, Italy, England and Costa Rica was the real group of death.

Pfff, a group so bad that it was won by a CONCACAF country!
 
This thinking still beats me. Good job USA? For what? Waking up in the second extra time? Letting so many shots on the goal?

Great job Howard and good job Yedlin.
The team not so much.

This right there is why the US did not deserve to go through.

Howard (as amazing and godlike as he was during the entire match) would not have had to set a record breaking number of saves in a WC match if weren't for the complete defensive failure of the US team. Seriously.

The US depended way too much on the prowess of one man and paid the ultimate price for it. There are only so many shots a GK can take before he will crumble. It's just statistics.
 

woodchuck

Member
Re: Regarding Player Development in the US

People who say the US is behind in soccer simply because our best athletes play other sports know nothing about youth soccer or even soccer in general. Lebron even if he focused solely on soccer most of his life, would probably make a mediocre soccer player.

Yes there are some common attributes that are shared across top athletes. But a great basketball player will not make a great soccer player if we're talking at the highest levels. Yes soccer players have gotten bigger and taller over the years, but there's still a ceiling. Someone who is '6'9 will not have the agility and center of gravity needed to have world class technical ability and change of speed of someone a foot shorter. There's always exceptions but just look at Peter Crouch. So it's not just about funneling all our best athletes toward soccer. They still need to have a proportional body type and posses exceptional balance and talent with their feet. Some kids you can throw a ball at their feet and after 15-20 minutes it almost feels like they were born with the ball at their feet. Other kids it sometimes takes years for them to look like a natural with the ball even if they are exceptional athletes.

Another huge thing and this is the biggest reason why we struggle to compete in soccer. Our whole youth and to pro system in America is based around high school and college. Generally you try to play well in high school so you get recognize by a top college. You then play baseball, football, or basketball at that top college and hope to get picked up by the pros. That's how it works for all the professional sports in America.

The problem is, this doesn't work at all for soccer. In the rest of the world, players get recruited at ages 7-9 years old and play at full-time soccer academies (often sponsored by major clubs) and then they turn pro around 16 or 18 at the latest. So in the US, the college system puts us at a severe disadvantage because they usually stay in high school until 18 and then spend another 4 years playing soccer at a college (which probably has mediocre to terrible quality soccer). American players don't get out of the system and turn pro until there about 22 years old. This puts us 4-6 years behind the equivalent European player. Imagine if Neymar wasn't at this World Cup but instead still stuck playing at Duke University coached by someone who doubles as a history professor.

If you look at the youth national tournaments, the US is actually pretty competitive with the rest of the world in the u17 age groups. But we just lose so much ground when the players are 16-22 years old.

Also in the US we have child labor laws where you can't sign kids to professional contracts. However in the rest of the world for the most part, there's no such rules. Clubs can have kids sign contracts and they own the rights to those 9-10 year olds. They in turn spend money developing those players, so hopefully when they get older they can sell the players for a transfer fee. It's a business and it's business that is incompatible with the US labor laws. So there isn't incentive to train little kids in soccer as intense in the US as in other parts of the world because there isn't a perceived payoff. Instead the Youth soccer system in America is "pay to play" and it's mostly composed of middle and upper middle class kids who can afford the club fees and travel.

This is the real reason why we are behind the technical curve with soccer in America. Not because Lebron is playing basketball.

[/realtalk]

I agree with all this. But would also like to add with American sports obsession on winning at a young age as opposed to developing skills and technical ability. There's too much emphasis on wins at a young age or which kids can run the farthest or the fastest as opposed to which kids can fucking just trap the ball. We need to hire someone Dutch to complete overhaul the youth soccer system.
 

elty

Member
The good thing about the american system, though, is that it gives many of its top sports athletes an education and a future once they're done playing.

I always have the impression that many of them just get some garbage degree (probably custom designed by the college so a monkey can pass) that will be absolutely useless.
 
Just caught the replays of today's matches. Looks like there were no surprises in the final 16 stage. Everyone that was expected to advance, advanced.

Wicked match ups for Friday though.
 

Nesotenso

Member
Re: Regarding Player Development in the US

People who say the US is behind in soccer simply because our best athletes play other sports know nothing about youth soccer or even soccer in general. Lebron even if he focused solely on soccer most of his life, would probably make a mediocre soccer player.

Yes there are some common attributes that are shared across top athletes. But a great basketball player will not make a great soccer player if we're talking at the highest levels. Yes soccer players have gotten bigger and taller over the years, but there's still a ceiling. Someone who is '6'9 will not have the agility and center of gravity needed to have world class technical ability and change of speed of someone a foot shorter. There's always exceptions but just look at Peter Crouch. So it's not just about funneling all our best athletes toward soccer. They still need to have a proportional body type and posses exceptional balance and talent with their feet. Some kids you can throw a ball at their feet and after 15-20 minutes it almost feels like they were born with the ball at their feet. Other kids it sometimes takes years for them to look like a natural with the ball even if they are exceptional athletes.

Another huge thing and this is the biggest reason why we struggle to compete in soccer. Our whole youth and to pro system in America is based around high school and college. Generally you try to play well in high school so you get recognize by a top college. You then play baseball, football, or basketball at that top college and hope to get picked up by the pros. That's how it works for all the professional sports in America.

The problem is, this doesn't work at all for soccer. In the rest of the world, players get recruited at ages 7-9 years old and play at full-time soccer academies (often sponsored by major clubs) and then they turn pro around 16 or 18 at the latest. So in the US, the college system puts us at a severe disadvantage because they usually stay in high school until 18 and then spend another 4 years playing soccer at a college (which probably has mediocre to terrible quality soccer). American players don't get out of the system and turn pro until there about 22 years old. This puts us 4-6 years behind the equivalent European player. Imagine if Neymar wasn't at this World Cup but instead still stuck playing at Duke University coached by someone who doubles as a history professor.

If you look at the youth national tournaments, the US is actually pretty competitive with the rest of the world in the u17 age groups. But we just lose so much ground when the players are 16-22 years old.

Also in the US we have child labor laws where you can't sign kids to professional contracts. However in the rest of the world for the most part, there's no such rules. Clubs can have kids sign contracts and they own the rights to those 9-10 year olds. They in turn spend money developing those players, so hopefully when they get older they can sell the players for a transfer fee. It's a business and it's business that is incompatible with the US labor laws. So there isn't incentive to train little kids in soccer as intense in the US as in other parts of the world because there isn't a perceived payoff. Instead the Youth soccer system in America is "pay to play" and it's mostly composed of middle and upper middle class kids who can afford the club fees and travel.

This is the real reason why we are behind the technical curve with soccer in America. Not because Lebron is playing basketball.

[/realtalk]

MLS is not relying on the draft as it once was though. Most of the younger talent in the MLS is coming from the academies. Case in point Yedlin. My team, SKC, has a 17 year old CB on its roster and he is getting first team minutes this season ( There were rumors Juventus were interested in him). Combine the MLS academies with the drive for MLS teams to have B or 2nd sides to compete in the USL Pro ( 3rd division in the US soccer pyramid) and we are doing a lot of things right when it comes to player development. It will take time but it is going in the right direction.
 
MLS is not relying on the draft as it once was though. Most of the younger talent in the MLS is coming from the academies. Case in point Yedlin. My team, SKC, has a 17 year old CB on its roster and he is getting first team minutes this season ( There were rumors Juventus were interested in him). Combine the MLS academies with the drive for MLS teams to have B or 2nd sides to compete in the USL Pro ( 3rd division in the US soccer pyramid) and we are doing a lot of things right when it comes to player development. It will take time but it is going in the right direction.

I remember reading that the MLS is now doing Contracts with younger players to skip college and join the MLS instead. As a part of the contract, the team will pay for the player's college after they leave. I think that's a brilliant way to deter parents' drive to get their kids to go to college immediately.

Not really sure whether the above is prevalent throughout the league, but someone (here?) mentioned it was being done.
 
Wow CRC beated Uruguay and Italy in convincing fashion, tied with England when they were already in top 16. Then they measured against a very very complicated and hungry Greece team that has a very good defense and certainly most of the time does not let the other team play. CRC was 1-0 and was not conceded a penalty, so they could have been 2-0 and certainly not suffer like they did. Ref was handing yellow cards like candy, although the red card you could argue that was fair. In the end they had to fight like 60 minutes with 10 men and still got the result, yes not pretty in the end but the result nevertheless. Wow and still CRC does not have the respect they have deserved in this WC, but I like it like that after all, it is great to have a chance to surprise most people again!!
 

Tex117

Banned
I wouldn't say it was a lack of heart, it was simply just the fact that Belgium was a better team than the U.S. and it showed. I mean I'd say quite the opposite, the U.S. did show heart and they definitely tried but that can only get you so far when you're playing a team with better talent.
Dat American midfield...
 

meanspartan

Member
This World Cup more than any I can remember of the few I have been old enough to pay attention to (Basically since 1998 on, so this is #5) is sooo wide open.

If I had to pick the finals, I'd say Colombia vs. Netherlands right now, but it's far from a sure thing. Literally any of the remaining teams can win other than Costa Rica and maybe even Brazil (yep, I said it. Not impressed much at all).
 

Rockyrock

Member
I wouldn't say it was a lack of heart, it was simply just the fact that Belgium was a better team than the U.S. and it showed. I mean I'd say quite the opposite, the U.S. did show heart and they definitely tried but that can only get you so far when you're playing a team with better talent.

yea, basically this. Has nothing to do with the U.S. not wanting it enough.

Belgium just has disgustingly good young talent across the board.

They will probably be top 3 favorites come Russia 2018. No shame in losing to them.
 
Just watched the game on ESPN3 replay. Just realized when they put 1 minute up in the 120th for stoppage time you could actually hear Klinnsman say "1 minute?! where the fuck does 1 minute come from?!"
 

Fireblend

Banned
Wow CRC beated Uruguay and Italy in convincing fashion, tied with England when they were already in top 16. Then they measured against a very very complicated and hungry Greece team that has a very good defense and certainly most of the time does not let the other team play. CRC was 1-0 and was not conceded a penalty, so they could have been 2-0 and certainly not suffer like they did. Ref was handing yellow cards like candy, although the red card you could argue that was fair. In the end they had to fight like 60 minutes with 10 men and still got the result, yes not pretty in the end but the result nevertheless. Wow and still CRC does not have the respect they have deserved in this WC, but I like it like that after all, it is great to have a chance to surprise most people again!!

Don't worry so much about people thinking Costa Rica's success has been mostly luck. I think most people even here recognize getting to a fifth world cup game after coming up on top of a group of death takes a bit more than luck. Plus, there'll be no doubt about it once we defeat the Oranje team on Saturday ;)
 
Don't worry so much about people thinking Costa Rica's success has been mostly luck. I think most people even here recognize getting to a fifth world cup game after coming up on top of a group of death takes a bit more than luck. Plus, there'll be no doubt about it once we defeat the Oranje team on Saturday ;)

Never! I respect Costa Rica for playing amazing at this wc, but Holland will beat your ass. You gonna get robbened.
 

zert

Member
http://miguelherreraforengland.com/

tumblr_n7y6cb6RYp1tfv1reo1_500.png
 

Fireblend

Banned
Never! I respect Costa Rica for playing amazing at this wc, but Holland will beat your ass. You gonna get robbened.

Sure they will.
If that's what you need to tell yourself to sleep at night.

Seriously though, in the absence of Costa Rica kicking everyone's ass I'd be really really happy with a Colombia - Netherlands final. Crossing my fingers for that.
 

Wazzy

Banned
I don't think I'm ready for Fridays game. I won't be able to handle it emotionally.

I'll also be at work and not at a pub which sucks.
 

Braag

Member
Can't wait for the France vs Germany game. Dunno which one to root for since so far I've always wanted both of these teams to win and hoped they would somehow get to the semi finals together :p I'll probably lean a bit to France's side...
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Don't worry so much about people thinking Costa Rica's success has been mostly luck. I think most people even here recognize getting to a fifth world cup game after coming up on top of a group of death takes a bit more than luck. Plus, there'll be no doubt about it once we defeat the Oranje team on Saturday ;)

5mxqaos.gif


D'aww you're so cute.

Nothing warms my heart more than watching the little ones talk about their hopes and dreams, and nothing brings a big fuzzy smile to my face quite like seeing the universe snuff out those dreams and slap them right back down to reality.
 
MLS is not relying on the draft as it once was though. Most of the younger talent in the MLS is coming from the academies. Case in point Yedlin. My team, SKC, has a 17 year old CB on its roster and he is getting first team minutes this season ( There were rumors Juventus were interested in him). Combine the MLS academies with the drive for MLS teams to have B or 2nd sides to compete in the USL Pro ( 3rd division in the US soccer pyramid) and we are doing a lot of things right when it comes to player development. It will take time but it is going in the right direction.

Yep, this is true. The US Soccer/MLS academy system just got started in 2007. So we're just now starting to see the first wave of players who grew-up through that system. I definitely think we'll start seeing some really good results in 7-10 years when a couple of generation of players have gone through it and the kinks have been worked out in the system. It's a great step in the right direction, MLS academies are always free so a family's income is less of an issue. We still need to find a consistent way to train "pre-academy" players who are 7-12 years old but can't afford the super expensive soccer clubs.

I remember reading that the MLS is now doing Contracts with younger players to skip college and join the MLS instead. As a part of the contract, the team will pay for the player's college after they leave. I think that's a brilliant way to deter parents' drive to get their kids to go to college immediately.

Not really sure whether the above is prevalent throughout the league, but someone (here?) mentioned it was being done.

These are called "Generation Adidas" contracts I believe. There's a limited amount of these available, so you really have to be an astounding player to take advantage of this even if you're already MLS bound. But I think it's a great program and it would be nice if it was standard for every MLS player contract.
 
So what are the chances of MLS actually taking off to a point where will would see American talent comparable to a league such as the EPL, La Liga, bundesliga, etc.?

Lets say in 20-30 years, will it be possible?
 

Kevtones

Member
Flawed but gritty. That was an American performance despite the loss.



Hurts though - this felt like a springboard game but we just didn't have enough up front. We needed Donovan. We really did.
 

Massa

Member
http://i.imgur.com/5mxqaos.gif[IMG]

D'aww you're so cute.

Nothing warms my heart more than watching the little ones talk about their hopes and dreams, and nothing brings a big fuzzy smile to my face quite like seeing the universe snuff out those dreams and slap them right back down to reality.[/QUOTE]

Man, one would think the Netherlands have won a World Cup with that kind of talk. Let me check:

NED: 0
CRC: 0

Yep, that's what I thought.
 
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