What is it about western comics manga readers are turned off by? (& vice-versa)
- Thread starter PsychBat!
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Mental Atrophy
Banned
Are Japanese comics still grayscale/black and white?
First sentence shows that don't know what you are even talking about. There is no GT manga material to begin with.
Secondly you point to summaries for comics, because they are hard to get into, but you have a problem to use the same principle for manga. Tz
Yes.
You have color pages sometimes though in the magazines.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
Marvel and DC's main universes I feel are an inherently and fundamentally terrible way to tell a story, shit never ends, it changes writers all the time and everything being connected leads to both a ton of plotholes and nothing mattering in the long run. If the same thing was done in Manga form I'd still hate it.
I have no real problem with most Western comics, I think The Goon is pretty rad and The Watchmen is one of my favorite pieces of media, but generally I really don't like the artstyle most Western comic artists tend to use. It all looks the same to me and is generally pretty ugly. I'm also not a fan of musclemen outside of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, so that design type being far more common in Western comics is also a turnoff. I also think colored comic/manga art in general looks really shitty.
I think the absolute biggest difference for me is the difference in the way the two styles draw faces. I really, REALLY do not like the way 99% of Western artists draw faces.
Also, now, I haven't been able to bring myself to stand the art long enough to read very many full comics, but based on them and everything I've seen/heard in the periphery, Western comics tend not to have a very big focus on the actual fighting in most action stories. Like, there seems to be less of a focus on the big finishing moves and attacks and more seems to have one or two panels of zip zap zoom and puncharoo then the bad guy is on the ground.
The big unbeatable guy doesn't seem ever be beat by fighting spirit, they always beat everyone then there's a big moment where they disable his super stuff and suddenly they've won the fight. But, I am probably completely wrong, that's just what I've seen from most of them, I'm sure there are plenty with amazing fights and big climactic finishing moves, but that's not the general product I associate with Western comics.
I have no real problem with most Western comics, I think The Goon is pretty rad and The Watchmen is one of my favorite pieces of media, but generally I really don't like the artstyle most Western comic artists tend to use. It all looks the same to me and is generally pretty ugly. I'm also not a fan of musclemen outside of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, so that design type being far more common in Western comics is also a turnoff. I also think colored comic/manga art in general looks really shitty.
I think the absolute biggest difference for me is the difference in the way the two styles draw faces. I really, REALLY do not like the way 99% of Western artists draw faces.
Also, now, I haven't been able to bring myself to stand the art long enough to read very many full comics, but based on them and everything I've seen/heard in the periphery, Western comics tend not to have a very big focus on the actual fighting in most action stories. Like, there seems to be less of a focus on the big finishing moves and attacks and more seems to have one or two panels of zip zap zoom and puncharoo then the bad guy is on the ground.
The big unbeatable guy doesn't seem ever be beat by fighting spirit, they always beat everyone then there's a big moment where they disable his super stuff and suddenly they've won the fight. But, I am probably completely wrong, that's just what I've seen from most of them, I'm sure there are plenty with amazing fights and big climactic finishing moves, but that's not the general product I associate with Western comics.
It's printed on cheap and recycled paper. Think about the consequences of using color on those.
IIRC Jump Live is fully colored and digital.
Alx
Member
I never thought I'd see some Ibañez praise @ GAF
Clever & Smart can be very funny but... I can't get over the fact that Ibañez so obviously ripped off Franquin, more than once.
Seriously...
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Diprosalic
Banned
Dragonball, Ranma 1/2 and Detective Conan all start at #1 and you read it in order. DB and Ranma are finished. Nobody would pick up any other issue than #1 to start and read to the last issue.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
I like both, but US comics are, generally speaking, super hero stuff, which I personally find to be mindnumbingly boring garbage. Doesn't help that there's X amounts of different universes involving the same characters, and series that never seem to end, which is why I prefer series and graphic novels that have a definite ending, like Sandman, V for Vendetta, From Hell, Don Rosa's Duck comics etc.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
while the scenario is more than often not true, comics often have "fighting spirit" scenes. hell, thats spideys go to. speech and all
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
Like I said, I've not really read many, but what about finishing moves? Like, the best moments of every Shonen Manga is when they do their big super move at the end of an arc and that's the moment to look back on. I never hear about that stuff in comics.
One Piece does this in every arc, it's one of the main draws to keep reading.
Naruto is essentially just fluff between big dumb finishing moves.
I don't know, that's just what I usually look for in battles.
Finaika
Member
Western comics (including Bandes Dessinées) are too expensive compared to manga, especially when you can buy and read the stuff from Japan. Drop the stupid colour, it just makes it more costly!
The manga scene is also much broader.
The manga scene is also much broader.
I mean, just compare the amount of erotic or porn comics to hentai.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
That's pretty awesome and I have heard about that in the past, but how common is stuff like that? Whenever I read it there's very little fighting with the big enemy.
Just for the record, in case I'm unclear on this with my wording, I'm not trying to demean comics or get argumentative, I just don't have a great frame of reference for these types of comics and am genuinely curious.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Both genres have really stupid shit in them. I don't find one better than the other just different.
Anyone who is still reading Naruto but swears Superhero comics are dumb is remedial.
Anyone who is still reading Naruto but swears Superhero comics are dumb is remedial.
Oh, sorry, I'm not too familiar with manga but I always thought it was a genre. You learn something new everyday.
When it comes to comics, does any other country put out slice of life stuff like Japan? Seems like most western stories need to have some kind of goal.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
pretty much my opinion.
Chainsawkitten
Member
If it involves superpowers, lots of action or convoluted timelines, count me out.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
I only know like, one or two people that still read Naruto that claim it's not dumb, everyone else I know who still reads (Like, 5-6) openly admit it's terrible but they're too deep in. But, pretty much everyone I know who likes comics (8 or so people) all claim the mainline DC and Marvel are all great and that people don't give it a fair chance.
Not saying that's the consensus, just my personal experience.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
Because comics are niche, Marvel and DC aren't.
plasmawave
Banned
I'm not a fan of the actions in the comics. They look really stilled and lack momentum and speed.
Speaking from personal experience, I'd say character growth is what important. You have a sense of progression from characters in manga, even in average shounen/battle manga; that you don't normally get from western superhero comics.
I felt like if I stopped reading a superhero series at one point in time, and pick it up years later, I won't feel like I'm missing anything. I can't say the same with One Piece, for example.
Granted, I stopped reading comics years ago and went fully into manga so I probably missed on more recent offerings. Gotham Central and The Sandman were probably my favourite superhero series (If you can call it that.)
I felt like if I stopped reading a superhero series at one point in time, and pick it up years later, I won't feel like I'm missing anything. I can't say the same with One Piece, for example.
Granted, I stopped reading comics years ago and went fully into manga so I probably missed on more recent offerings. Gotham Central and The Sandman were probably my favourite superhero series (If you can call it that.)
If we're comparing western (really American) comics and manga, it kind of helps to be aware of the breadth of both if you're going to participate in the discussion, no? Almost all the complaints against "western" comics in here are really just complaints about the big two. But the OP didn't ask "why don't you like superhero comics?" He asked "why don't you like western comics?" and even made sure to include non-Marvel/DC stuff in the OP.
Word.
Angelus Errare
Banned
I mean how am I suppose to respond to anecdotal evidence? I mean I guess I could post my own that runs counter to yours but that's rather pointless.
By this argument most of these slice of life type manga people like and are using as their argument are niche, while the battle shonen like Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece aren't.
plasmawave
Banned
Yeah. The fully coloured JoJo manga is gorgeous tho.
I usually just buy trade paperbacks of comics, self contained story arcs. I'd go crazy trying to catch up with every issue in every week and stuff.
I have a disinterest in manga because it's near impossible to find in stores at a good price. and when I do find it, it's stuff I have no that looks off-putting, it's also censored most of the time. Even if the subject matter disgusts me, censorship disgusts me even more,
I have a disinterest in manga because it's near impossible to find in stores at a good price. and when I do find it, it's stuff I have no that looks off-putting, it's also censored most of the time. Even if the subject matter disgusts me, censorship disgusts me even more,
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I actually like quite a number of Western comics, but I'm just not interested in superhero stories. Same with me for manga though. I'd much rather read slice of life or other stories that don't focus on superpowers and fighting. It's just that manga caters to that a lot more than western comics.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Don't read much of either, although I can't imagine ever wanting to delve into anything in the world of Marvel or DC outside of isolated side stories or maybe a graphic novel here or there. I have Watchmen in my bookshelf and my copy of Sandman Omnibus vol. 1 arrived in the post today, although I haven't had a chance to read any of it yet. I'm hoping it's mainly a stand-alone thing that doesn't require knowledge of the DCU, but I'm going in basically blind on recommendations from others.
For me it's generally art style preferences. It's also easier (for me) to find more unique looking manga than it is to find unique looking comics.
I know not every western comic is "muscle guy / girl in suit fighting other human enemies" but I guess I'm not exposed to enough other material think otherwise. Show me nice western art / mechs and I'll read.
I know not every western comic is "muscle guy / girl in suit fighting other human enemies" but I guess I'm not exposed to enough other material think otherwise. Show me nice western art / mechs and I'll read.
Sandman requires no knowledge of the DCU to enjoy. It technically exists in that universe, but the most that's ever come of that are small guest spots from SM characters in odd issues of mainline DC titles.
Some aren't niche
These are the 10 best selling manga series. 3 of them are shonen battle but this is still a pretty diverse set of titles.
One Piece
Golgo 13
Dragon Ball
Kochikame
Conan
Naruto
Oishinbo
Slam Dunk
Doraemon
Touch
Dokaben
And even within the genre One Piece is about pirates, Naruto Ninjas, Dragonball is based of chinese folktales etc.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
Comics/manga themselves are niche, which is why most of this thread is only about the ones that aren't. Because people who don't actually read comics are going to post anyway and only know of the big two. It's just the problem with this type of discussion taking place on a forum not dedicated to comics/manga, not everyone that is going to see the thread is going to have the same level of exposure or interest in the discussion, but they see it anyway and there's no reason they can't post.
Also, not using it an argument, just using my experience to show that some people acknowledge the quality of what they're reading to be low.
Riposte
Member
sorakirosaki
Member
is that oh great? because my god i love his two page spreads in air gear(crappy story but my god those spreads)
edit: also i guess im one of the few people on gaf who still kinda likes naruto ( storys been kinda going up and down but its not been all bad :T bleach to be honest is kinda meh)
Biorg Trinity and Sidonia!
sorakirosaki
Member
OMGGGGGG Biorg trinity was done by oh great!! holy shit thank you XD gotta read these two
On average I prefer manga because holy shit comics can be so fucking bad, but the best of comics easily kicks manga's ass to the curb. I've yet to read a manga series as good as Watchmen, Arkham Asylum, Hellblazer or Sandman, to name a few.
The annoying thing about the average comic(I'm going to generalize a bit here) is that they try to be super detailed and realistic, but that makes the errors and flaws all the more apparent, and the composition can be stilted and sterile. Compared to the average manga, which can be quite dynamic and visceral western comics can often look like a series of pictures just haphazardly put together with no real thought. The artists/writers don't make good use of the amount of space, control and production values they have. But when they do, the results are breathtaking.
The annoying thing about the average comic(I'm going to generalize a bit here) is that they try to be super detailed and realistic, but that makes the errors and flaws all the more apparent, and the composition can be stilted and sterile. Compared to the average manga, which can be quite dynamic and visceral western comics can often look like a series of pictures just haphazardly put together with no real thought. The artists/writers don't make good use of the amount of space, control and production values they have. But when they do, the results are breathtaking.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Oh Great should really never write again; his shit makes Naruto read like fucking Nobel Prize material.
That's a strength because this way people CAN be exposed to these lesser known manga/comics.
On a forum dedicated to manga and comics this thread would turn out about the same. One group who doesn't actually read anything from the other group making assumptions and making a list of things they hate about said group while claiming what they read is better and writing a list of reasons why. Both lists can be attributed to the other group.
That's a strength because this way people CAN be exposed to these lesser known manga/comics.
On a forum dedicated to manga and comics this thread would turn out about the same. One group who doesn't actually read anything from the other group making assumptions and making a list of things they hate about said group while claiming what they read is better and writing a list of reasons why. Both lists can be attributed to the other group.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
It seems that in this thread there's a lot of people talking way outside their spheres of reference, especially manga fans looking at western comics. I see a few people mentioning 40+ year stories and that just isn't the case. While western properties might be monolithic and decades old, they're broken down into what is known as "runs" - this is usually a set number of issues by a creative team or writer and when finished, can and should be considered (if executed well) a complete story. For example, Joss Whedon's X-Men run is four volumes and that's it. You can read just these four books and get a story with a beginning, middle and end. The same is true for the vast majority of comics - they have a malleable shared history, but the runs themselves are very often self contained and complete.
On the flipside, the idea of a 40+ volume story makes my head spin, there's very little in western comics that approaches that - I think maybe Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man run is the only thing similar to manga in its structure (200 issues and counting, one story).
I guess most of the time it comes down to aesthetics. I enjoy some manga but while I enjoy the art styles, it's not the main style that I enjoy. I like the inventiveness and sheer scope of western comics more, I think there is a much broader amount of styles to choose from. But I guess that's merely what I've been exposed to, as with most folks in this thread.
On the flipside, the idea of a 40+ volume story makes my head spin, there's very little in western comics that approaches that - I think maybe Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man run is the only thing similar to manga in its structure (200 issues and counting, one story).
I guess most of the time it comes down to aesthetics. I enjoy some manga but while I enjoy the art styles, it's not the main style that I enjoy. I like the inventiveness and sheer scope of western comics more, I think there is a much broader amount of styles to choose from. But I guess that's merely what I've been exposed to, as with most folks in this thread.
Wiktor
Member
Western comics or western superhero comics? Big difference.
I can say that superhero comics are a tough sell. Mangas tell a coherent story, from start to finish. Superhero comics are never ending grind, with endless stories, restarts, heroes stuck in limbo and never ageing, multiple series about the same characters being released at the same time. It's a pure mess.
Realistically unless you're a hardcore fan getting into superhero comics monthly is a terribly unappealing proposition. If you want to engage somebody with those stories give them paperbacks that collect concrete arcc and specific creator's runs.
I can say that superhero comics are a tough sell. Mangas tell a coherent story, from start to finish. Superhero comics are never ending grind, with endless stories, restarts, heroes stuck in limbo and never ageing, multiple series about the same characters being released at the same time. It's a pure mess.
Realistically unless you're a hardcore fan getting into superhero comics monthly is a terribly unappealing proposition. If you want to engage somebody with those stories give them paperbacks that collect concrete arcc and specific creator's runs.
It's like anime threads where people who don't like them say it's just about underage girls.
Honestly that's not something that would make me read them.
In the manga industry most series belong to one author/duo, this is what I like. Of course sometimes you can have a couple of spin-offs especially when your series is highly popular but still, that's different. You don't have constant reboots/new run of old series. I see why some people might love that though.
I'm not sure that we'll get new Naruto/whatever series in 40 years by new authors (I could be wrong of course).
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Cool. Hope it's as good as people are saying.
He came to rule them all
It's a shame all of the best JoJo parts didn't receive official translations
*Unless you live in Italy. Go read Vento Aureo if that's the case!
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
I'm not saying it's all a negative, it's just a reason why a good amount of this discussion is so, for lack of a better term, surface.
As for the discussion, I think it would have a lot of the same posts, but the ratio of informed to not informed would be leaning more towards the informed side of things. But, manga and comic fans can't seem to get along for shit, so there'll never really be a forum dedicated to both without constant arguing making the point moot. I guess GAF is as good a middle ground as any.
TatteredHat
Member
I'm really not a fan of US superhero comics, but I grew up with comics like Spirou and Fantasio, Suske en Wiske, Asterix and Gaston.
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