I think it's double the draw calls to render two independent meshes even if they're half as detailed as a regular mesh.
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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread XIII: Leak Dynasty
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I'd agree with this if just because I think Nintendo could (and should) get away with the games-as-service vision and, like Valve, use franchises like Smash and Kart as freely growing/evolving products to keep people playing. But at the same time I don't think charging would be a big deal. They could just do it the same way every other game does it: DLC is downloaded automatically so you can play against all new characters/content, but must buy access for yourself. I think Smash is a progressive enough series with such a strong multiplayer audience that a huge percentage of fans would happily put down cash for DLC anyway.
If the game is updated to support seeing the DLC characters online, what would the issue be?
They could easily do it like Pikmin 3 and give you a freebie in the update, but have very clear store links somewhere to guide you to where to purchase the other characters.
Which would be awesome because I dislike Brawl Mario/Smash 4 Mario, the inclusion of FLUDD always bothered me because the way they implemented it was not how I envisioned it as a move. What they did with FLUDD just didn't work and it's probably still not going to be that great in Smash 4. Plus, the tornado (Down B) did not feel good as an aerial move -- it felt really tacked on and just blechhhh. I muchhhhh prefer the drill Dair he had in 64/Melee and if Doc being in the game means he gets that Dair, I'm probably never going to play regular Mario in Smash 4 lol.
I'm worried Doc Mario is going to be more of a clone than he was in Melee. Not hating on Lucina, but she sets a bad precedent.
I'm supposed to happily put down extra cash just to unlock my main character and then buy the game twice across multiple platforms to have the full experience? I don't really think paid DLC fits Smash thematically, as silly as that might sound. It's supposed to be a celebration of all things Nintendo, and locking out pieces of that history from certain players just feels weird.
Wasn't the game originally designed for the 3DS? We should be happy that there's a Wii U version, considering Sakurai probably had to be convinced that a Wii U version was needed. As for the DLC, I highly doubt that this will lead to roster splitting. Nintendo probably has offline players in mind as well as the core audience, and any DLC added wouldn't be added to the Wii U roster by launch.
Sauce
EDIT: Shit, late.
As I was saying, I don't really see that big of a problem with Nintendo charging for DLC characters, unless they were voluntarily holding back on-disc content. Smash games last a long time. Considering that there's only one Smash game per console, I just see it as a way not just to extend the life, but to make it deeper and more complex, and we've never had the opportunity to bypass the "as is character limit" until now.
BassForever
Member
This sounds like my vision of an apocalyptic nightmare future.
I just want Smash. I want it to be complete when it releases. Then I want them to start preparing to make the next one six years from now.
But yeah, that's viable and I think most people would probably like it.
PreyingShark
Member
I wouldn't mind Ice Climbers going away because the times I got wobbled made me hate them beyond anything even vaguely resembling a rational amount of hate.
Honestly, the supposed DLC lineup sounds perfect.
You have a huge third-party hook in the form of Snake, which would be a guaranteed infusion of hype for the WiiU version and a second wind for the 3DS version, depending on how they time it. If it's paid DLC, Konami could get a bigger cut, and if nothing else it helps build goodwill for Snake's next outing in MGS5, similar to Snake in Brawl mere months before MGS4.
You have a badass in the form of Wolf, and a lovable lil' boy in the form of Lucas. You have a truly unique character in the form of Ice Climbers, benefitting from extra optimization time to run smoothly at 60 fps on the 3DS, even in a four-way mirror match with items on very high.
And then you have the Chorus Men, a potential three-man character, the likes of which will no doubt show Sakurai flexing his creative muscle and dazzling everyone with his genius.
If it's paid, you'll probably be required to download an update so you can still face other players using those characters, even if you yourself don't own them. This then encourages you to want to buy the characters yourself. It's in-game advertising. And Nintendo isn't oblivious to how lucrative microtransactions can be, so I wouldn't put it past them to charge for some, if not all, of the characters.
But it could also be a free update. We'll see. In the meantime, the rumored DLC lineup feels right. The inclusion of Ice Climber and Rhythm Heaven enemies in Smash Run could even be a way to grease the wheels, establishing a presence before the characters even arrive.
You have a huge third-party hook in the form of Snake, which would be a guaranteed infusion of hype for the WiiU version and a second wind for the 3DS version, depending on how they time it. If it's paid DLC, Konami could get a bigger cut, and if nothing else it helps build goodwill for Snake's next outing in MGS5, similar to Snake in Brawl mere months before MGS4.
You have a badass in the form of Wolf, and a lovable lil' boy in the form of Lucas. You have a truly unique character in the form of Ice Climbers, benefitting from extra optimization time to run smoothly at 60 fps on the 3DS, even in a four-way mirror match with items on very high.
And then you have the Chorus Men, a potential three-man character, the likes of which will no doubt show Sakurai flexing his creative muscle and dazzling everyone with his genius.
If it's paid, you'll probably be required to download an update so you can still face other players using those characters, even if you yourself don't own them. This then encourages you to want to buy the characters yourself. It's in-game advertising. And Nintendo isn't oblivious to how lucrative microtransactions can be, so I wouldn't put it past them to charge for some, if not all, of the characters.
But it could also be a free update. We'll see. In the meantime, the rumored DLC lineup feels right. The inclusion of Ice Climber and Rhythm Heaven enemies in Smash Run could even be a way to grease the wheels, establishing a presence before the characters even arrive.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Probably my biggest concern is turning on Smash 4 in 15 years and being able to have the entire roster.
Smash games have HUGE life spans. 64 is even still played in minor tournaments, and obviously Melee is still huge.
Imagine if Mewtwo or Pichu had been DLC in Melee. The DLC servers would have been down years ago and those two characters lost to time.
Now patching has the same issues, but eventually Nintendo would probably print carts with the patch adding the characters (if they were free), so it might not be a problem. And my thought is the WiiU version will have the entire roster, so it hopefully won't be an issue there.
Green Mamba
Member
Considering he's listed alongside Lucina who seems to be even more of a clone than Doc was in Melee and not alongside his normal franchise like the other less similar clones Falco, Ganondorf, and Toon Link, I wouldn't count your eggs before they hatch.
My prediction, if the leak is true--Dr. Mario has FLUDD, his moveset is entirely the same as Mario's with the properties changed like he was in Melee and like Lucina is.
EDIT: I missed the discussion on it earlier--but the leak's stage roster is still rancid shit, and if there's any reason to want it to be fake it is the stage roster. Indefensibly awful.
Masked Man
I said wow
There's also the idea that they could have him play similar to another character that used a bird for most of his moves...
This is what I'm most hoping for regarding DHD's playstyle. Just think: for all intents and purposes, we would be getting Banjo and Kazooie in Smash without any of the sticky legality issues! If only Megaconglomocorp hadn't bought out Rare...
Let's take a look...
"The Masked Man ... shook his head and knelt down next to DICKS AHOY. [He] undid the belt..."
Yep, sounds like a typical Saturday night for me.
Waka waka!
OK, I fell off on following the competitive scene for Brawl years ago, but Lucas was worse than Ness in that game how?
Also, I'm arguing strictly on the basis of how the character plays, I'll give Ness his dues for being in Smash longer but that's it really.
balladofwindfishes
Member
It wouldn't be hard to give Doc his tornado. The animation exists for Mario's down air. That would mean 1 whole animation required, for Doc's down air, and considering Doc will probably have 3 taunts, 4 animations is really not that much different than 3 animations.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Your main is your main for the game you main it in, there's never been any promise your main from one game will appear in the base package of the next. The idea of paid DLC is that new content is made post release and priced reasonably as a way of extending and growing the base, complete game instead of having to wait for another game to be released in order to access that content. So, in the fair world, if a character is cut from the roster it is done so for good reason. And if it is added as DLC it was made post-release and priced fairly. No game truly releases content complete. It's the artist problem: nothing is ever finished until you're forced to finish it, because creators will keep adding/changing stuff forever if left to their own devices.
That being said, all of this is subjective and I can see how it would suck to main a character that has appeared in most releases so far (like Ice Climbers) and then seen that character cut from the franchise only to be added later as priced DLC, especially if that price is unfair (something I'm not confident Nintendo has a full grasp of yet). And again, like Valve, I really think Nintendo would benefit from adopting a "free update" policy for Smash and Kart. Well, maybe that's not economically realistic as the Wii U takes, but you get my point.
Ultimately it comes down to the idea that "games as services" is a great philosophy when handled by producers/developers who have a respect for their audience. There's no reason for people to oppose the idea of DLC yet openly welcome another fucking game years down the road that, for most part, advertises new stages and characters as a way to differentiate from the last entry. Realistically Mario Kart 8 and Smash 4 are very, very similar to their predecessors, and the appeal is we get new tracks, new visuals, and a new roster. Everything else is gravy. DLC helps circumnavigate this compartmentalised release schedule by growing the product that exists now into something bigger and more beautiful. I adore the idea that I could buy Smash 4 this year and, in three years, still be playing it with new characters and stages that didn't exist three years prior. Same goes for Kart. These franchises would benefit tremendously from evolving content, in the same way many other fighters, shooters, and racing games do. If I'm happy to pay AU$80 for a new game a few years from now, I'll happily pay money for similarly bulk content (or drip fed over time) to grow the game that exists now.
But yeah, pricing fairness is a really big, subjective question mark that means different things for different fans, and it's easy for the audience to get "screwed" out of good content by unreasonable pricing. Amiibo is ripe for this, because locking digital content behind high priced physical objects is bullshit, but thankfully Smash doesn't seem to be going down this path (touch wood for Kart). In the end I do hope Smash sees DLC, and a lot of it. And I don't mind it priced, as long as it's fair.
With DLC, I think Nintendo is not going to go the paid route for characters and stages. Instead, they'll have other trophies (ehhh I'm unsure if I should say trophies) and alts/costumes that will be paid DLC. And looking at the fact that stages will have music limits yet they will still have bonus songs in game to listen to, I think music series packs will happen as well.
Hey, leaks are serious business!More like most spam heavy fan base
All the games so far are incredibly replayable. They don't really need the extras. That work is better spent making the next one.
Disclaimer: Just my opinion, and a lot of it probably comes from me being biased and old fashioned. I recognize that most would justifiably disagree.
The Great Gonzales
Member
Jawmuncher
Member
I could see the DLC being patched in and you have to buy if you want to play as those characters. So if you just go to online it won't affect anything.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Really, wasn't it said that the Sakurai interview was mistranslated?
I think $5 is probably the absolute max for individual characters. $10-15 for packs of three. But it's Smash Bros so I'd definitely pay more.
Sigismundo
Member
Would just like to chime in and say I really, really hope we don't have to pay for on-disc/on-cart DLC. It was terrible when it happened with SFxT and it would be even worse for SSB4.
georly said:
Assuming this is the full roster and full stage selection, 7.5.
I was apprehensive at first, but after letting this sink in for a while I actually really like the newcomer selection here. I was in love with DHD at first sight, and I've always been a Shulk supporter but I wasn't a Bowser Jr. fan, nor one of Dark Pit or Dr. Mario. After some time to reflect, I really like all five.
That said, I am livid at the cuts. The Ice Climbers are unique and a Smash staple. I'm disappointed at Snake though I can understand as he is a 3rd party and it could've been out of Nintendo's hands. I came to terms with Squirtle and Ivysaur long ago, but I do like Lucas, and Wolf is one of my mains. Cuts es no bueno.
The stage selection is pretty horrid to boot.
However, if you include the supposed DLC, that would bring me down to around a 3.5. The cut veterans showing up fashionably late would ease a lot of my problems with this.
I really would've liked Ridley and Paper Mario, but somebody has to be left over for Smash 6, no?
However, yanking Mewtwo's chain like this is just wrong.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Paid or not, being condition to old school expansion packs I'd personally prefer a "big update" over little updates. A fairly priced pack of new characters, stages, assist trophies, or whatever that acts as an expansion to the game 6 - 12 months later.
I mean, I suppose it goes into whether it will be "fair" for someone to have a character another person knows nothing about that they are fighting against.
Stages seem more ok to have as paid DLC since if you want fair, you can always go do For Glory matches which will just FD every stage I think.
I'm not sure how other fighting games do it though so I don't know lol.
balladofwindfishes
Member
It would be kind of cool if a new game comes out and they patch in an Assist Trophy to advertise it.
Like a Splatoon assist trophy patched in right before the game is released.
I don't think they'd charge for Assist Trophies, it's not really a thing I would see anyone honestly paying for.
Like a Splatoon assist trophy patched in right before the game is released.
I don't think they'd charge for Assist Trophies, it's not really a thing I would see anyone honestly paying for.
StreetsAhead
Member
If we are getting character DLC - paid or otherwise - I would hope it would come with stages, music, and/or trophies to make the character feel a proper part of the game and not just an after-thought add-on.
Lucas has been worse than Ness for quite a while now. He's actually a really trashy character, easily one of the worst in the game. If you're wondering why he sucks, it's because he's got one of the worst aerials in the game. It's double bad because aerials are often used to approach, so basically, most characters could simply wait until Lucas comes to them and exploit him. He also lacked any aerial KO moves. In other words, Lucas has to be grounded if he wanted to kill someone, which is a huge, huge, huge problem because it limits his options. Even worse, his stupid grab release animation. God must have really hated Lucas, because he's got a grab longer animation than your average character, which meant characters grab Lucas, intentionally release him, and use a Smash Attack (or in some cases, regrab him). All of that, plus a nonexistant grab game made him a truly underpowered character.
Ness was pretty bad too (dreadful recovery, an even worse-grab release animation that allowed for infinites and chaingrabs) but he had a strong aerials and sweet grab game.
If we're talking playstyles, I still prefer Ness; Lucas was quite one-dimensional.
BassForever
Member
Nintendo and Sakurai could put out DLC for any and all characters
and I'd be like
minus the duck hunt dog
Lack of DK representation in Smash has always been weird. Items are hard because the games don't actually have many items to pull ideas from, but I can't believe we have never seen an animal buddy appear in Smash (not as a trophy).
Animal Crate would be a cool Assist Trophy. A random animal buddy appears to help you. It could feature Rambi, Squawks and Squitter. Enguarde wouldn't really work sadly.
At the very least, we should get new DK stages. DKCR was on Wii and 3DS so I expect a shared stage.
I know this was discussed like 20 pages ago but this threads moves so stupidly fast haha.
Animal Crate would be a cool Assist Trophy. A random animal buddy appears to help you. It could feature Rambi, Squawks and Squitter. Enguarde wouldn't really work sadly.
At the very least, we should get new DK stages. DKCR was on Wii and 3DS so I expect a shared stage.
I know this was discussed like 20 pages ago but this threads moves so stupidly fast haha.
Nintendo and Sakurai could put out DLC for any and all charactersand I'd be likeminus the duck hunt dog
i'd pay for an adventure mode like
Which interview?
If Snake is in as DLC, I expect a Metal Gear pack. Would guess at $8.
I like that better too, now that you mention it. That's not much different from the Capcom model, though.
WiiRevolution1
Member
Its obvious the reason that most characters revealed have had recent games is because they want to advertise those said games.
It is also the reason why characters like Duck Hunt will be secret unlockables, because he has no game to advertise.
The only ither characters that fit into this criteria of keeping hidden are other characters without recent games, or clones like Lucina, Dr. Mario, or Dark Pit. Lucina was probably only revealed to help advertise FE and/or because IS wanted to show her off because of the huge fanbase.
I would argue LM might have made more sense as a secret since I'm sure the Wii game is out of stock by this point but I guess that was to advertise to the many western fans that wanted him. And of course, third parties have to be revealed prerelease.
Though, I would argue that Rosalina should've been unlockable with Koopa Car as the starter. Would've made more sense to advertise NSMB games or even Mario Kart 8 but whatever.
I feel Shulk will be the last starter and the last character to get a trailer to advertise Xenoblade X. We shall see.
*insert more ramblings here.*
Yep.
But if each Bowser Jr. Alt is a Koopa Kid, that doesn't make sense... or does it? Completely different voices and models, but same stats?
Don't understand why Ice Climbers would be cut anyway. Can the 3DS really not keep up with the Gamecube?
KelpPlankton
Member
Yeah, that's exactly what Sakurai's saying there. As long as their attacks and hitboxes are identical, they're just going to share the same slot even if their model and voicework varies.
You could squeeze all the koopa kids into the same hitbox, if that leak was accurate. I still don't trust that one but it seems to line up with other details from this leak so.
I'd imagine that if they went this route, characters from new Nintendo IPs would be fast tracked for DLC combatants over being ATs. Smash games would then become grounds to represent everything current in that era of Nintendo.
At the same time, I'm an optimist and thus wouldn't be surprised nor would I be upset at the idea of ATs now, playable next time.
Oh wow. I must be too fond of early Brawl then when nair, bair meteor and any Smash were enough. I just latched onto Lucas far more than I ever did Ness.
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