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[cajunator]

This.

Anime fans will swear up and down otherwise, but the truth is that I've never met one who wasn't creepy or severely maladjusted in some way and so it's pretty easy for me to dismiss them. All of the ones I saw in high school and college were usually unattractive/obese and awkward with poor hygiene, never had girlfriends, and were super obnoxious and wanted to shove all of their spiky-haired naruto ninjas and moe waifus down everyone's throats because they thought enjoying something "foreign" somehow made them edgy hipster connoisseurs when they were just circlejerking over cartoons.

It was always obvious to me that it was just a hobby for miserable, socially-stunted losers and emos who used Japanese cartoons as an opiate to distract themselves from being depressed and a shallow pretext for forming friendships with each other because they couldn't navigate normal human interaction otherwise. Everyone stayed as far away from them as possible, especially in college because watching cartoon as an adult (and not just that, but TELEGRAPHING it to other people as LOUDLY as possible) is the biggest red flag imaginable that you're a sexless manchild. There was a guy on the floor or my dorm that we would never invite to parties because he wore nothing but Dragon Ball Z shirts and smelled like he hadn't showered in a month and we all laughed at him behind his back over it.

With all the articles I've read on GAF about how Japanese anime and video games are catering to pedophiles and how anime fans have waifus and watch "moe girls" shit, I can't help but think that anime fans here are either in deep denial about their deviancy or straight-up lying about not jerking it to underage girls when they all have avatars of little girls. Just like every anime fan I've seen IRL they wear their "I watch shows about fucking cartoon children" badge on their sleeve but don't want to be called out on it. The kneejerk defensiveness from fans you see in every thread that exposes the depraved reality of anime is a dead giveaway.

It's creepy as fuck and if you have anime avatar, I'll ignore anything you type on your cum-encrusted keyboards because it's an admission that you don't actually know anything about real life and there's a good chance that you're a pedophile. You shouldn't be on NeoGAF, you should be in prison for CP. I'm glad that the GAF community has fostered an environment that promotes the marginalization and dismissal of fans of anime because they've earned it.

You are a genius

Im gonna buy you a beer someday.

 

[Dragonborn]

This.

Anime fans will swear up and down otherwise, but the truth is that I've never met one who wasn't creepy or severely maladjusted in some way and so it's pretty easy for me to dismiss them. All of the ones I saw in high school and college were usually unattractive/obese and awkward with poor hygiene, never had girlfriends, and were super obnoxious and wanted to shove all of their spiky-haired naruto ninjas and moe waifus down everyone's throats because they thought enjoying something "foreign" somehow made them edgy hipster connoisseurs when they were just circlejerking over cartoons.

It was always obvious to me that it was just a hobby for miserable, socially-stunted losers and emos who used Japanese cartoons as an opiate to distract themselves from being depressed and a shallow pretext for forming friendships with each other because they couldn't navigate normal human interaction otherwise. Everyone stayed as far away from them as possible, especially in college because watching cartoon as an adult (and not just that, but TELEGRAPHING it to other people as LOUDLY as possible) is the biggest red flag imaginable that you're a sexless manchild. There was a guy on the floor or my dorm that we would never invite to parties because he wore nothing but Dragon Ball Z shirts and smelled like he hadn't showered in a month and we all laughed at him behind his back over it.

With all the articles I've read on GAF about how Japanese anime and video games are catering to pedophiles and how anime fans have waifus and watch "moe girls" shit, I can't help but think that anime fans here are either in deep denial about their deviancy or straight-up lying about not jerking it to underage girls when they all have avatars of little girls. Just like every anime fan I've seen IRL they wear their "I watch shows about fucking cartoon children" badge on their sleeve but don't want to be called out on it. The kneejerk defensiveness from fans you see in every thread that exposes the depraved reality of anime is a dead giveaway.

It's creepy as fuck and if you have anime avatar, I'll ignore anything you type on your cum-encrusted keyboards because it's an admission that you don't actually know anything about real life and there's a good chance that you're a pedophile. You shouldn't be on NeoGAF, you should be in prison for CP. I'm glad that the GAF community has fostered an environment that promotes the marginalization and dismissal of fans of anime because they've earned it.

Are you actually being serious? Because if you are, I can't help but laugh. Honestly, everything you wrote is so... off. Jesus. But if you're joking, then that's right on point.

As for this debate, I don't know, I find it hilarious that gamers, who are pretty much enjoying a niche activity (core gaming that is) which is often ridiculed, go on to make fun of another niche community (in this case anime) in the same exact way. Hypocritical is the word I'd use.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

Anime wouldn't make a great target for SJW outrage (hentai aside). It's one of the few entertainment types that utilizes strong females fairly frequently. Sure, they might also often be voluptuous, but being attractive shouldn't be considered a negative, especially when the character is otherwise created pretty well.

Uh..what the hell anime are you watching? A lot of the anime I see have misogynist writing ("I'm not strong enough to do this because I'm a woman!" like flat out just saying that haha.) and garbage fanservice. Anime that doesn't have any of these things is pretty rare, not frequent in my experience. You can't even watch a stupid show aimed at children about cartoon pirates or ninjas without fanservice.

(Yeah yeah those are shonen and are for boys but you know girls like fighting shows too every now and then!)

Like there are obviously exceptions to this and not everything is super 100% terrible, but a lot of it is and a lot of it is popular.

I'm also not convinced by your "They're attractive, who has a problem with that?" argument when the problem isn't them being attractive, but the constant boob physics and jiggling and camera sweeping to show upskirts or butt shots. Not..exactly well intentioned, you know? So I think anime makes a pretty decent target for "SJW outrage". This isn't even counting the large amounts of underage character fanservice.

 

[Dragonborn]

Uh..what the hell anime are you watching? A lot of the anime I see have misogynist writing ("I'm not strong enough to do this because I'm a woman!" like flat out just saying that haha.) and garbage fanservice. Anime that doesn't have any of these things is pretty rare, not frequent in my experience. You can't even watch a stupid show aimed at children about cartoon pirates or ninjas without fanservice.

(Yeah yeah those are shonen and are for boys but you know girls like fighting shows too every now and then!)

Like there are obviously exceptions to this and not everything is super 100% terrible, but a lot of it is and a lot of it is popular.

I'm also not convinced by your "They're attractive, who has a problem with that?" argument when the problem isn't them being attractive, but the constant boob physics and jiggling and camera sweeping to show upskirts or butt shots. Not..exactly well intentioned, you know? So I think anime makes a pretty decent target for "SJW outrage". This isn't even counting the large amounts of underage character fanservice.

You said it yourself, "a lot", not all. There are plenty of anime that show otherwise. If you only look at the bad stuff, you'll find it in any fandom. This is one of the things I personally don't like about the whole representation issue (which I'm not trying to downplay in any way). People focus to much on the bad stuff, rather than on the good stuff. There's always going to be shitty aspects for pretty much anything (movies, tv shows, games, anime, manga, comics, etc). If you spend all your time looking only at those that do it bad, you're never going to enjoy anything.

 

[HighResTomato]

Don't really have an issue with Anime in general. Just the (perhaps majority) ones that depict teenage girls in an overly sexualised and perverted manner. How can anyone not think it's sick that a 50 something year old illustrator depicts young girls that way.

EDIT:

This.

Anime fans will swear up and down otherwise, but the truth is that I've never met one who wasn't creepy or severely maladjusted in some way and so it's pretty easy for me to dismiss them. All of the ones I saw in high school and college were usually unattractive/obese and awkward with poor hygiene, never had girlfriends, and were super obnoxious and wanted to shove all of their spiky-haired naruto ninjas and moe waifus down everyone's throats because they thought enjoying something "foreign" somehow made them edgy hipster connoisseurs when they were just circlejerking over cartoons.

It was always obvious to me that it was just a hobby for miserable, socially-stunted losers and emos who used Japanese cartoons as an opiate to distract themselves from being depressed and a shallow pretext for forming friendships with each other because they couldn't navigate normal human interaction otherwise. Everyone stayed as far away from them as possible, especially in college because watching cartoon as an adult (and not just that, but TELEGRAPHING it to other people as LOUDLY as possible) is the biggest red flag imaginable that you're a sexless manchild. There was a guy on the floor or my dorm that we would never invite to parties because he wore nothing but Dragon Ball Z shirts and smelled like he hadn't showered in a month and we all laughed at him behind his back over it.

With all the articles I've read on GAF about how Japanese anime and video games are catering to pedophiles and how anime fans have waifus and watch "moe girls" shit, I can't help but think that anime fans here are either in deep denial about their deviancy or straight-up lying about not jerking it to underage girls when they all have avatars of little girls. Just like every anime fan I've seen IRL they wear their "I watch shows about fucking cartoon children" badge on their sleeve but don't want to be called out on it. The kneejerk defensiveness from fans you see in every thread that exposes the depraved reality of anime is a dead giveaway.

It's creepy as fuck and if you have anime avatar, I'll ignore anything you type on your cum-encrusted keyboards because it's an admission that you don't actually know anything about real life and there's a good chance that you're a pedophile. You shouldn't be on NeoGAF, you should be in prison for CP. I'm glad that the GAF community has fostered an environment that promotes the marginalization and dismissal of fans of anime because they've earned it.

Some truth it that man.

 

[munchie64]

To be fair strong, amazingly written female characters and horrible/creepy/misogynistic fan service don't have to be separate to exist.

See: Game of Thrones.

 

[Basketball]

People with anime avatars are weirdos and are definitely jerks

 

[DonasaurusRex]

...Maybe in the US? i dont think so though i see plenty of younger kids latching on to various anime. Theres so much of it there no reason to hate it in general you cant watch it all...well shouldnt be able to, some of it is over the top stupid and some of it is damn good tv/film. Those guys are a bit old to be so critical anyway you gotta respect the context in which people enjoy the stuff anyway. Im sure a guy my current age 33 wouldnt be all that into DBZ when i was 15 years ago either but i'd probably still like GTO or NaNa.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

You said it yourself, "a lot", not all. There are plenty of anime that show otherwise. If you only look at the bad stuff, you'll find it in any fandom. This is one of the things I personally don't like about the whole representation issue (which I'm not trying to downplay in any way). People focus to much on the bad stuff, rather than on the good stuff. There's always going to be shitty aspects for pretty much anything (movies, tv shows, games, anime, manga, comics, etc). If you spend all your time looking only at those that do it bad, you're never going to enjoy anything.

When these shows aren't a minority the "You're only looking for the bad stuff to complain about" argument doesn't really work because, well, a LOT of these shows do that shit haha. Like don't get me wrong there are good anime that don't do this (and unfortunately good anime that does do this, which is the problem.) but when a large amount of anime give off that impression it's no mystery why it turns a lot of people off.

 

[Mumei]

We should just force people to watch Trigun, that'll fix the problem.

Let's not. Trigun exists in that border between "mediocre" and "pretty good."

 

[supergiz]

That's because anime just looks silly to most of the exposure people have to it in public. They don't see the people watching the serious anime. They see some guy who smells of body odor hunched over watching the harem type.

Advertising is usually what dictates the public opinion on something. And advertising for anime right now is all focused on kids channels and geared towards kids.

I know with my job now if I was on the train watching any kind of anime and my coworkers saw be and word got around my career would be in trouble.

 

[DeaviL]

Let's not. Trigun exists in that border between "mediocre" and "pretty good."

And me thinking people loved that show...

Well now you've done it, Fist of The North Star for all of you...
TWICE IN A ROW

 

[jstripes]

This.

Anime fans will swear up and down otherwise, but the truth is that I've never met one who wasn't creepy or severely maladjusted in some way and so it's pretty easy for me to dismiss them. All of the ones I saw in high school and college were usually unattractive/obese and awkward with poor hygiene, never had girlfriends, and were super obnoxious and wanted to shove all of their spiky-haired naruto ninjas and moe waifus down everyone's throats because they thought enjoying something "foreign" somehow made them edgy hipster connoisseurs when they were just circlejerking over cartoons.

It was always obvious to me that it was just a hobby for miserable, socially-stunted losers and emos who used Japanese cartoons as an opiate to distract themselves from being depressed and a shallow pretext for forming friendships with each other because they couldn't navigate normal human interaction otherwise. Everyone stayed as far away from them as possible, especially in college because watching cartoon as an adult (and not just that, but TELEGRAPHING it to other people as LOUDLY as possible) is the biggest red flag imaginable that you're a sexless manchild. There was a guy on the floor or my dorm that we would never invite to parties because he wore nothing but Dragon Ball Z shirts and smelled like he hadn't showered in a month and we all laughed at him behind his back over it.

With all the articles I've read on GAF about how Japanese anime and video games are catering to pedophiles and how anime fans have waifus and watch "moe girls" shit, I can't help but think that anime fans here are either in deep denial about their deviancy or straight-up lying about not jerking it to underage girls when they all have avatars of little girls. Just like every anime fan I've seen IRL they wear their "I watch shows about fucking cartoon children" badge on their sleeve but don't want to be called out on it. The kneejerk defensiveness from fans you see in every thread that exposes the depraved reality of anime is a dead giveaway.

It's creepy as fuck and if you have anime avatar, I'll ignore anything you type on your cum-encrusted keyboards because it's an admission that you don't actually know anything about real life and there's a good chance that you're a pedophile. You shouldn't be on NeoGAF, you should be in prison for CP. I'm glad that the GAF community has fostered an environment that promotes the marginalization and dismissal of fans of anime because they've earned it.

There's a lot of good arguments in there, but it kinda went off the rails in the last paragraph.

 

[Foggy]

Anime is an easy target. Always will be. People planting their flag of superiority over something in pop culture? Always gonna happen.

 

[Mumei]

And me thinking people loved that show...

Well now you've done it, Fist of The North Star for all of you...
TWICE IN A ROW

I'm pretty sure you're right, but I've never been a big fan. It had moments where I loved it, and long stretches where I was bored stiff.

 

[cajunator]

Also yall should watch Millennium Actress.

I will never ever stop talking about my favorite movie!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpGrD5wUzKE

 

[Crash Station]

Don't really have an issue with Anime in general. Just the (perhaps majority) ones that depict teenage girls in an overly sexualised and perverted manner. How can anyone not think it's sick that a 50 something year old illustrator depicts young girls that way.

What about a teenage illustrator drawing sexualized 50 year olds?

 

[Dragonborn]

When these shows aren't a minority the "You're only looking for the bad stuff to complain about" argument doesn't really work because, well, a LOT of these shows do that shit haha. Like don't get me wrong there are good anime that don't do this (and unfortunately good anime that does do this, which is the problem.) but when a large amount of anime give off that impression it's no mystery why it turns a lot of people off.

True and I get that. I've just pretty much accepted that that kind of stuff will come with the territory. Japan wants to sell anime and that's what sells over there. Hence we get totally pointless stuff like beach episodes. It's just the culture over in Japan seems so drastically different than here, which causes even more issues as people look at it from a western point of view.

Still, I don't think it fair to judge someone solely based on having an anime or manga avatar. That'd be like going to a movie forum and getting judged (and/or dismissed) for having a gaming avatar.

 

[DeaviL]

I'm pretty sure you're right, but I've never been a big fan. It had moments where I loved it, and long stretches where I was bored stiff.

Well, it's not like you have to like it...
Anime is varied enough for all, that's what i love about it.

Spoiler

gotta go watch some Glass Mask now
... or Skip Beat. Choices,choices.

 

[BocoDragon]

That's because anime just looks silly to most of the exposure people have to it in public. They don't see the people watching the serious anime. They see some guy who smells of body odor hunched over watching the harem type.

Advertising is usually what dictates the public opinion on something. And advertising for anime right now is all focused on kids channels and geared towards kids.

I know with my job now if I was on the train watching any kind of anime and my coworkers saw be and word got around my career would be in trouble.

That's so true. If I wasn't invested in anime, my contact points would be:

-The most obvious anime geeks, bags adorned in pins and dolls.
-Flipping past whatever random anime is still on TV, which is probably some unremarkable kids show
-Pictures of bad cosplay in memes and such, which inevitably float up to whatever internet sites I use
-Whatever mainstream portrayal of anime and its fans in shows like Big Bang Theory, which is probably "haha, manbaby nerds".

Really, zero contact with what most of its discerning fans like about it.

 

[Jex]

Let's not. Trigun exists in that border between "mediocre" and "pretty good."

You're too generous. I'd say it exists between "mediocre" and "good". The fact that it's still talked about simply demonstrates that people put far too much wait on shows they say when they were growing up. If it had aired say, two years ago, it would already be forgotten.

 

[ishibear]

I'm pretty sure you're right, but I've never been a big fan. It had moments where I loved it, and long stretches where I was bored stiff.

Trigun picked up once Wolfwood shown up, but that's about all I can remember. Still, I've got fond memories of it. The animation was nice and the characters were very entertaining.

I place Trigun with Outlaw Star and Wolf's Rain in terms of overall presentation.

You're too generous. I'd say it exists between "mediocre" and "good". The fact that it's still talked about simply demonstrates that people put far too much wait on shows they say when they were growing up. If it had aired say, two years ago, it would already be forgotten.

Or maybe they like the old school anime vibe from it (much like the fondness for Space Dandy)? A lot of us grew up on Naruto and Bleach too but you hardly see many giving those two the same hype.

 

[HK-47]

You're too generous. I'd say it exists between "mediocre" and "good". The fact that it's still talked about simply demonstrates that people put far too much wait on shows they say when they were growing up. If it had aired say, two years ago, it would already be forgotten.

Harsh

 

[munchie64]

There's a lot of good arguments in there, but it kinda went off the rails in the last paragraph.

The fact that people (not just you of course) are saying this scares me a little quite frankly.

 

[Nickle]

Trigun was good until the halfway point where Vash

Spoiler

breaks down in tears whenever some random person dies.

 

[Jex]

When was the last time anyone talked about Badlands Rumble oh right never.

(Maybe you shouldn't make a movie for your show 10 years after it was popular. What the hell, Madhouse.)

 

[The Silver]

Let's not. Trigun exists in that border between "mediocre" and "pretty good."

I would order everyone to watch Monster, Gankutsuou, and Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

And then School Days for a good old fashioned troll.

 

[DeaviL]

When was the last time anyone talked about Badlands Rumble oh right never.

(Maybe you shouldn't make a movie for your show 10 years after it was popular. What the hell, Madhouse.)

Wow wow, lay of my poor Trigun.
You've hurt him enough already.

 

[Crash Station]

The fact that people (not just you of course) are saying this scares me a little quite frankly.

Kind of what madp set out to do. It's like Sacha Baron Cohen trying to expose people's prejudices and whatnot.

 

[ishibear]

I didn't get to see Badlands Rumble. Was it good?

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Ikuhara is back (again), so anime is saved for one, maybe two cours.

People with anime avatars are weirdos and are definitely jerks

Maintaining and upholding this reputation represents a lot of work.

 

[Narag]

I didn't get to see Badlands Rumble. Was it good?

I liked it but others didn't. Given where it fell in the timeline, it couldn't disrupt the status quo in any meaningful way so the regular show cast are ostensibly supporting cast for someone else's story which I was fine with.

 

[gretos]

You're too generous. I'd say it exists between "mediocre" and "good". The fact that it's still talked about simply demonstrates that people put far too much wait on shows they say when they were growing up. If it had aired say, two years ago, it would already be forgotten.

Then how about someone who saw this anime for the first time this year and still loved it more then anything was showing nowdays? would you still say nostalgia hit them??

 

[Jex]

Then how about someone who saw this anime for the first time this year and still loved it more then anything was showing nowdays? would you still say nostalgic hit them??

I'd say that they're quite lucky because that means there must be many, many anime out there that they haven't watched yet. A whole world awaits!

 

[ishibear]

I liked it but others didn't. Given where it fell in the timeline, it couldn't disrupt the status quo in any meaningful way so the regular show cast are ostensibly supporting cast for someone else's story which I was fine with.

Thanks!

 

[Korosenai]

When these shows aren't a minority the "You're only looking for the bad stuff to complain about" argument doesn't really work because, well, a LOT of these shows do that shit haha. Like don't get me wrong there are good anime that don't do this (and unfortunately good anime that does do this, which is the problem.) but when a large amount of anime give off that impression it's no mystery why it turns a lot of people off.

Yeah i know right. Fuck those guys.

 

[Nanashrew]

I've actually lost a lot of interest in anime recently. At least modern anime. Recently I've been looking at older anime from early 2000's and farther back into the 70's-80's.

 

[Risette]

tv anime peaked in the 70s

 

[Jex]

Trigun picked up once Wolfwood shown up, but that's about all I can remember. Still, I've got fond memories of it. The animation was nice and the characters were very entertaining.

I place Trigun with Outlaw Star and Wolf's Rain in terms of overall presentation.

By presentation do you mean production quality, background art, animation quality etc? Because Trigun is a very uneven show that frequently looks bad. I really can't say the same for Wolf's Rain which looks pretty great most of the time.

 

[gretos]

I'd say that they're quite lucky because that means there must be many, many anime out there that they haven't watched yet. A whole world awaits!

Oh my poor Trigun, you have shredded it to too many pieces : (

Spoiler

but still I like you

 

[jstripes]

The fact that people (not just you of course) are saying this scares me a little quite frankly.

Oh, I'm not some outside spectator.

I was a geeky anime fan in high school in the '90s, when it was still fairly obscure, and I watched it grow from that point.

I had a moment of clarity one Friday night, early in the '00s, while in the audience at a college anime club showing. I took a close look at the people I was surrounded by, and didn't like what I saw. Not one bit.

I still like watching a series now and then, and I still have my favourites, but I seriously readjusted my priorities after that moment.

 

[Mumei]

You're too generous. I'd say it exists between "mediocre" and "good". The fact that it's still talked about simply demonstrates that people put far too much wait on shows they say when they were growing up. If it had aired say, two years ago, it would already be forgotten.

Wait, isn't that more or less what I said?

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

tv anime peaked in the 70s

It was all downhill after Anne of Green Gables.

 

[Mumei]

I would order everyone to watch Monster, Gankutsuou, and Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

And then School Days for a good old fashioned troll.

<3

I like you. Now just add the Rurouni Kenshin prequel OVA and Mushishi and you'll have rounded out my 10/10s.

 

[Nanashrew]

I would order everyone to watch Monster, Gankutsuou, and Legend of the Galactic Heroes.

And then School Days for a good old fashioned troll.

Monster is one of my favorites. Same for Mushishi and the Rurouni Kenshin OVAs that Mumei said.

 

[Shergal]

tv anime peaked in the 70s

Television peaked in 70s anime, trufax

 

[Jex]

Wait, isn't that more or less what I said?

This is a videogame forum, surely the difference between a 6.5 and a 7 is deeply, truly important and meaningful?!

This.

I see justice was swift.

 

[ishibear]

By presentation do you mean production quality, background art, animation quality etc? Because Trigun is a very uneven show that frequently looks bad. I really can't say the same for Wolf's Rain which looks pretty great most of the time.

Presentation: Characters, story, pacing, appeal, art/animation quality, etc.

Outlaw Star also looked pretty rough at times, as did Inuyasha, and even my favorite ever, Yu Yu Hakusho. While that's quite a setback (LOL), they were still drawn nicely enough of the time for me to praise it.

Wolf's Rain was really pretty...

 

[FlyingSaucer]

It was all downhill after Anne of Green Gables.

More or less what Miyazaki has been saying since the 80s.

 

[NYClyde]

Hatred of anime only seems to be growing in "nerd" culture. I've always noticed there is a class structure in nerdom where fans of a certain niche look down other nerds. That way they can appear to be "normal" to those outside of the culture. Last night, I heard a fellow video game player disparage "anime" games at a friend's house, and he was white, overweight, neckbearded, and socially challenged (Anecdotal evidence works both ways). Its becoming a problem in the gaming community because ethnocentrism and good old fashioned white supremacy are back in style due to the whole West vs. East divide in video gaming.

Is anime sexist? Sure, a lot of the time it really is. However, the most popular TV show among people my age is Game of Thrones. A show that depicts naked females for no apparent reason, and they are being subjugated in most episodes and raped in others. For example:

Spoiler

When Jamie raped Cersi in Season 4, its pretty obvious they tried to make it seem like she wanted it despite her constantly saying no .

Mainstream critics ripped that scene apart, but the nerd community didn't care. Why? Because it was made by white people in the West.

The mainstream doesn't care about anime, but it certainly doesn't hate it. There are a pair of Air Jordan VI's coming out this fall based on the anime Slam Dunk. Almost all of my sneaker collecting friends are fiending for these shoes and none of them are anime fans. They just like what they like and don't give a shit about where it comes from, much like the rest of the mainstream. The hate of anime and other Eastern forms of entertainment are just the nerds looking down on other nerds in an effort to make themselves feel less like nerds. Much like middle class people who look down on poor people so they can feel like upper class people.