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[Fliesen]

It's not a great one, there's a whole barrel of reasons why in any base comparison it doesn't work with this situation and I think in doing so you're either really over-inflating one issue or really really cheapening and showing a great deal of ignorance for another.

i would if i had compared the actual issues to one another. i was merely comparing rhetorical fallacies.
let's not further derail the thread by you trying to make me sound like i am comparing the global impact "gamergate"(? isn't that a website?!) to conflicts with countless human casualties.

 

[Nome]

I normally like boogie, but I feel like I learned something about him with this video that I didn't know before. I felt like this video/argument was supremely lazy.

Whether or not you agree with any given point swirling around the twitters and blogs and polygons and kotakus these days, I don't think anyone is actually arguing that "all gamers are bigots". I can't think of anyone who's making this claim, and this is the premise of boogie's video -- that evil jerks who want to ruin games are saying all gamers are bigots. No one is saying that.

This isn't an intellectual video.

If he wants to think about who he's talking to and who he's aligning himself with when he makes such an argument as this, he should look at the comments as they pour in. I haven't studied them closely, but I'm psychic: I bet they're nearly uniformly ignorant and/or revolting.

The issue he discusses is that articles addressing bigotry make the assumption that the *majority*, or at least a representative minority, of gamers fulfill the stereotypes, when in fact it's a *tiny* minority. This is indeed reflective even of a lot of stuff that gets posted on Gaf that talks about what's wrong with *gamers* right now, rather than saying what's wrong with bigots in the gamer community.

 

[HUELEN10]

Disappointed in Boogie. Whatever his true intentions are, he should know better than to willfully attach his name to this thing. I don't think all #GamerGate supporters are anti-inclusive. But the roots of the "movement" and its loudest voices very clearly are. People are only making themselves look worse by digging their heels so deep into this particular controversy.

He attached his name to it, even though he's been on /v/ following it since day one anonymously (as he just confirmed minutes ago) because he's not doing it for views or anythign like that, but he feels that this needs to be voiced. I respect and admire Boogie for being passionate about his beliefs like this, especially when done in the respectful manner of his video.

As for the "roots" of this, the roots are the corruptions in the industry. As for the controversy, the heels haven't been stuck on things like specific people as much as it has been exposing multiple examples of why the industry is corrupt and why it must stop. At of day 18 or 19, however you count it of this, that is where it is right now, and it is working.

Check what's trending on twitter right now. For or against this, one thing that can't be denied is that this will not go away anytime soon due to various factors including but not limited to specific people, specific sties, and specific cases.

 

[Dio]

But boogie did. That's his point. Boogie is claiming these people are slandering EVERYONE that plays games.

It should be made clear that some people believe "gamer" is a term that applies to everyone who has ever played a game, and some people believe "gamer" is a term for people who only play core games and the like, and that this difference in viewpoint is fucking with everyone's perception of the situation.

 

[Bodom78]

I'm so confused, can I still play video games or what?

 

[Odrion]

There are quite a few people on twitter right now saying shit like this constantly:

Yeah.

I don't know how wise it is to compare the defenders to #NotAllMen, as the goal from the opposing side really seems to be "associate gamers w/ bigotry and destroy the gamer identity."

I'm so confused, can I still play video games or what?

literally no

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Disappointed in Boogie. Whatever his true intentions are, he should know better than to willfully attach his name to this thing. I don't think all #GamerGate supporters are anti-inclusive. But the roots of the "movement" and its loudest voices very clearly are. People are only making themselves look worse by digging their heels so deep into this particular controversy.

This type of crap doesn't help though, you get that right? This whole situation is like some odd trench warfare, us/them. People would rather individuals not say anything at all on the issue than have them say something and come out on the 'wrong side'. What he said was heartfelt, honest, and imo harmless. Yet, here we are, all ready pushing him into the wrong camp.

You want dialog? Stop slamming people into X/Y camp.

I'm so confused, can I still play video games or what?

Thankfully, you can. I would stay out of any thread dealing with anything of substance though, you don't want to be labeled something that you aren't.

 

[ExVicis]

I'm so confused, can I still play video games or what?

You can do whatever you like dude, it's not as if anyone's gonna stop you here, on twitter or youtube.

 

[DocSeuss]

But boogie did. That's his point. Boogie is claiming these people are slandering EVERYONE that plays games.

Remember that one freelance journalist who wrote "just because I hate all men doesn't mean that if you're a man I hate you"?

That's the kind of people who are saying this. Some are normally cool, rational people who are just plain fed-up with the hate their friends are getting, but there is definitely an undercurrent of people with some really toxic worldviews latching on to both sides of this discussion as a means to spread their hate for various groups of people.

Some of them absolutely are slandering everyone who plays games. Some of them are slandering everyone who writes about games.

As someone who does both, I feel caught in the middle and completely ignored.

 

[jorma]

"not everyone" is the natural response to broad and generalised statements. No one likes to be stereotyped.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

For some reason the only thing that caused me concern while watching is that Francis seems to have got bigger.

 

[JackDT]

The irony that #notyourshield was started by 4chan to literally *be a shield* is blowing my mind?

 

[Jobbs]

The issue he discusses is that articles addressing bigotry make the assumption that the *majority*, or at least a representative minority, of gamers fulfill the stereotypes, when in fact it's a *tiny* minority. This is indeed reflective even of a lot of stuff that gets posted on Gaf that talks about what's wrong with *gamers* right now, rather than saying what's wrong with bigots in the gamer community.

This is somewhat unrelated to the original point, and I don't mean to derail, but since you brought it up, given my experience with online MP and other things I have a hard time believing that revolting attitudes inhabit only a "tiny" minority of people who play games.

My first exposure to console multiplayer in any big way was xbox 360 -- and in the early days I remember wondering often why so many people were calling me or others "nigger", because where I'm from you pretty much never hear this term used in real life. Eventually I stopped using headsets.

Ask a girl or woman what happens if they go into an MP game with strangers and speaks into the mic. Somehow this "tiny" minority of jerks seems to really get around.

And don't get me started on league of legends. It can feel really rare to find someone who isn't an enormous asshole. And while that may be a bit hyperbolic, nearly every match has people behaving horribly in it, despite the proprietors of the game (Riot) doing everything to promote a healthy and polite culture and discourage bad behavior.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

He attached his name to it, even though he's been on /v/ following it since day one anonymously (as he just confirmed minutes ago) because he's not doing it for views or anythign like that, but he feels that this needs to be voiced. I respect and admire Boogie for being passionate about his beliefs like this, especially when done in the respectful manner of his video.

As for the "roots" of this, the roots are the corruptions in the industry. As for the controversy, the heels haven't been stuck on things like specific people as much as it has been exposing multiple examples of why the industry is corrupt and why it must stop. At of day 18 or 19, however you count it of this, that is where it is right now, and it is working.

Check what's trending on twitter right now. For or against this, one thing that can't be denied is that this will not go away anytime soon due to various factors including but not limited to specific people, specific sties, and specific cases.

Considering their role in this whole thing /v/ isn't exactly a bias-free source to be reading up about all this.

Neither is Twitter or the other places that are up in arms about this either, but if I was him I'd have probably left out the part out of my argument.

 

[Petrae]

I feel like what's going on in the gaming press is just an extension of what went on back in the "gamers are so entitled and disgusting" days. The words have changed, but the sentiment has changed: "we hate our gross audience."

Agreed. This battle has been going on since Mass Effect 3, when many folks within games press took consumers to the verbal woodshed... and the relationship between the two groups has been strained since then. It had to come to a head at some point, when consumers finally got tired of being berated by the press corps that covers their hobby.

Now it's just an ugly, tangled mess of topics.

 

[Will]

I can't recall much in the way of discrimination or abuse thrown at me or people I know just because of people's preconceived notions of what "gamers" are. I am sure that some of that exists, but it is not something I witness on a daily or even weekly basis. What I have seen is a lot of discrimination and abuse thrown at people because of preconceived notions of what a person's race, gender or sexual orientation means. I like Boogie but his argument really makes it sound like the plight of the "gamer" is as bad as the plight of any other disenfranchised minority.

It's like your neighbor's house is on fire and the fire has spread to a tiny patch of grass in your backyard. Look, we can all see you have a little fire there, but how about we focus our energy on putting the big one out first?

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

But boogie did. That's his point. Boogie is claiming these people are slandering EVERYONE that plays games.

It's a fight over definitions. One side wants, for ideological reasons, to limit the scope of the term to undesirables, and to use circumlocutions like "people who play games" to refer to normal, well-adjusted gamers. The other side, for equally ideological reasons, wants to expand the scope of the term to include normal people, and to use terms like "people sending death threats" to refer to the undesirables. The first side wants to collapse distinctions between the subculture and the bad apples within it (this is why you see people making arguments like "it's not just some bad apples"), the second side wants to expand the definition of the word "gamer" so as to obscure the boundaries of the subculture, precisely in order to defend their subculture from accusations of bigotry.

You've got a lot of people like Boogie who are arguing in good faith but just don't seem to understand what's going on, and you've got a lot of people like Leigh Alexander who understand what's going on and aren't arguing in good faith, and the whole thing is just a mess.

 

[Odrion]

like did everyone miss that "gamers in four words" hashtag?

 

[IrishNinja]

I like Boogie a lot, but this is pretty much textbook #notallmen :/

in one

 

[DocSeuss]

Agreed. This battle has been going on since Mass Effect 3, when many folks within games press took consumers to the verbal woodshed... and the relationship between the two groups has been strained since then. It had to come to a head at some point, when consumers finally got tired of being berated by the press corps that covers their hobby.

Now it's just an ugly, tangled mess of topics.

To me it feels like massive attempts at ad hominem from either side. They want to discredit each other, so they're making stuff up. All us normal people are like "please, guys, just... leave my Twitter feed, okay?"

 

[SocksForWoks]

Good video a message but I believe these issues are incredibly small, insignificant, irrelevant even to most gamers.

 

[entremet]

Is there a Lionel mandrake summary on all this stuff? It's very confusing for those who don't want to read through huge threads some already locked.

 

[HUELEN10]

Considering their role in this whole thing /v/ isn't exactly a bias-free source to be reading up about all this.

Neither is Twitter or the other places that are up in arms about this either, but if I was him I'd have probably left out the part out of my argument.

Finding a bias-free source is hard, but that is why one who is passionate MUST do their own research.

I can only speak for myself, but I have checked and double-checked the points I follow from the Internet Aristocrat, and many of the stuff and stories and conversations from some people on /v/, and you know what? As far as the stuff I've researched and checked on is concerned, it's spot on.

The only reason Boogie made the video is that we are nearing 20 days of this, and he felt he can help make a difference, a positive one.

Is there a Lionel mandrake summary on all this stuff. It's very confusing for those who don't want to read through huge threads.

The Internet Aristocrat's Quinnspiracy Theory series (up to 3 episodes so far) is an excellent primer from one person's point of view. You don't have to agree with him, but you can use what he presents to help you do your own research to confirm his findings or contest them. Recently got done watching episode 3, and it really is getting all kinds of insane, yet real.

 

[reptilescorpio]

I agree with him.

Decrying people but using the term 'gamer' was a poor idea.

 

[Corpekata]

Remember that one freelance journalist who wrote "just because I hate all men doesn't mean that if you're a man I hate you"?

That's the kind of people who are saying this.

Some of them absolutely are slandering everyone who plays games.

No? I'm not familiar with the quote.

But let's take for instance, Leigh Alexander, who is probably the one most people are offended by. In that article alone there are multiple paragraphs talking about enjoying games that aren't attached to the "gamer" identity. Here's even a direct quote "A new generation of fans and creators is finally aiming to instate a healthy cultural vocabulary, a language of community that was missing in the days of “gamer pride” and special interest groups led by a product-guide approach to conversation with a single presumed demographic. "

I mean, if she's slandering all people that play games, then I guess she just insulted the people she's talking about as the future of gaming? Even in this one, easily the most inflammatory article, it's pretty clear she's not talking about everyone.

 

[ponpo]

like did everyone miss that "gamers in four words" hashtag?

What's that? Can't keep track of the tri-hourly gamer hashtags.

 

[Fliesen]

The issue he discusses is that articles addressing bigotry make the assumption that the *majority*, or at least a representative minority, of gamers fulfill the stereotypes, when in fact it's a *tiny* minority. This is indeed reflective even of a lot of stuff that gets posted on Gaf that talks about what's wrong with *gamers* right now, rather than saying what's wrong with bigots in the gamer community.

yes and no.
asking "what's wrong with bigots in the gamer community" is a pretty self-explanatory question - "they're bigots".

i do believe the question needs to be asked whether or not the gaming community as a whole is one where bigots like this can express and spread said bigotry much too freely.
i'm not saying it is or isn't - if so it's most likely not due to inherent corruption of the minds of gamers but their tech savvyness when it comes to modern means of communication.
Still, it's something that needs to be adressed and not derailed by saying "not all gamers" and "not only gamers".
Don't worry, other communities are receiving their share of issues as well - just look at pro-sports where being a homosexual is still a possibly career ruining move. Not all people involved in soccer are bigots, but the industry as a whole still seems to have issues with openly homosexual players.
pointing fingers "wasn't me, also look at those guys over there, they're even worse" doesn't seem reasonable to me.

 

[ExVicis]

I can't recall much in the way of discrimination or abuse thrown at me or people I know just because of people's preconceived notions of what "gamers" are. I am sure that some of that exists, but it is not something I witness on a daily or even weekly basis. What I have seen is a lot of discrimination and abuse thrown at people because of preconceived notions of what a person's race, gender or sexual orientation means. I like Boogie but his argument really makes it sound like the plight of the "gamer" is as bad as the plight of any other disenfranchised minority.

It's like your neighbor's house is on fire and the fire has spread to a tiny patch of grass in your backyard. Look, we can all see you have a little fire there, but how about we focus our energy on putting the big one out first?

That's really oversimplifying it though. It's more like a bunch of people in trying to stop the other fire started lighting fires around it to mitigate the damage of the larger one and in doing so are in actuality spreading the fire around when there was no need.

Did this weird tirade against the term gamer really need to happen? Was this really such a necessary outcome?

 

[Odrion]

What's that? Can't keep track of the tri-hourly gamer hashtags.

it's a hashtag where a bunch of duders were describing gamers in four words

like "stupid virgin bigot racist"

 

[DICKS AHOY]

To me it feels like massive attempts at ad hominem from either side. They want to discredit each other, so they're making stuff up. All us normal people are like "please, guys, just... leave my Twitter feed, okay?"

I quit Twitter years and years ago because even before this sort of controversy seemed to happen every second week every person I wanted to follow either spent most of their tweets responding to dickheads or acting like a dickhead. It wasn't pleasant.

Something about the site just seems to encourage people to be as vitriolic as possible to one another and for flamewars to start, and I say this as someone who still fairly regularly goes on 4chan.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

This whole thing remains embarassing.

 

[Corpekata]

Finding a bias-free source is hard, but that is why one who is passionate MUST do their own research.

I can only speak for myself, but I have checked and double-checked the points I follow from the Internet Aristocrat, and many of the stuff and stories and conversations from some people on /v/, and you know what? As far as the stuff I've researched and checked on is concerned, it's spot on.

The only reason Boogie made the video is that we are nearing 20 days of this, and he felt he can help make a difference, a positive one.

The Internet Aristocrat's Quinnspiracy Theory series (up to 3 episodes so far) is an excellent primer from one person's point of view. You don't have to agree with him, but you can use what he presents to help you do your own research to confirm his findings or contest them. Recently got done watching episode 3, and it really is getting all kinds of insane, yet real.

Did you not check on the TFYC? Who have since admitted they were not actually DDOSed? Did his first video where he rants about "favorable coverage" from Nathan Grayson not lead you to find out that favorable coverage was a mention among 50 other Greenlight games? His videos are filled with blatantly misrepresented facts and sometimes outright lies and are a terrible primer.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

I agree with him.

Decrying people but using the term 'gamer' was a poor idea.

Agreed.

Lets be honest though, that requires much more work.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

No? I'm not familiar with the quote.

But let's take for instance, Leigh Alexander, who is probably the one most people are offended by. In that article alone there are multiple paragraphs talking about enjoying games that aren't attached to the "gamer" identity. Here's even a direct quote "A new generation of fans and creators is finally aiming to instate a healthy cultural vocabulary, a language of community that was missing in the days of “gamer pride” and special interest groups led by a product-guide approach to conversation with a single presumed demographic. "

I mean, if she's slandering all people that play games, then I guess she just insulted the people she's talking about as the future of gaming? Even in this one, easily the most inflammatory article, it's pretty clear she's not talking about everyone.

It's not clear who exactly she is talking about, though, and that's the problem. Her apologists read a very pointed critique of mysogynists, her detractors read an indiscriminate screed against "gamers" (the subculture, not the people who play games).

 

[Alienous]

He attached his name to it, even though he's been on /v/ following it since day one anonymously (as he just confirmed minutes ago) because he's not doing it for views or anythign like that, but he feels that this needs to be voiced. I respect and admire Boogie for being passionate about his beliefs like this, especially when done in the respectful manner of his video.

As for the "roots" of this, the roots are the corruptions in the industry. As for the controversy, the heels haven't been stuck on things like specific people as much as it has been exposing multiple examples of why the industry is corrupt and why it must stop. At of day 18 or 19, however you count it of this, that is where it is right now, and it is working.

Check what's trending on twitter right now. For or against this, one thing that can't be denied is that this will not go away anytime soon due to various factors including but not limited to specific people, specific sties, and specific cases.

The root isn't "corruption". That's the excuse. That's the slip-up, the opening, to try to target and discredit specific people and viewpoints, through their degrees of separation to the original target.

Games journalism hasn't been legitimate for years. The recent dialogue about illicit developer/journalist sex and relationships is a small facet of this 'corruption'. 'Journalists' and developer's relationships are inappropriately close, they just aren't usually sexual. Sometimes it's paid review scores. Sometimes it's expensive gifts. The Zoe Quinn events just provide a unique opportunity to shit on a person directly, with something that is easy to point at and shout "Wrong! Wrong!". It's pathetic.

I'm finding it hard to deny the the root cause is some level of anti-inclusiveness.

 

[alstein]

There's two discussions that are intertwined and causing all the vitriol, because each side feels like they're being targeted.

On one hand, you've got folks rightfully calling out misogyny in gaming.

On the other, you've got folks rightfully calling out the crap attitudes and hypocrisy some in the games media have, and the hypocrisy of some of the social justice folks.

You can oppose both, but it's hard when both groups are at each other's throats because they feel like they have to be.

 

[Aeana]

The irony that #notyourshield was started by 4chan to literally *be a shield* is blowing my mind?

Yes. It was started to deliberately distract people from other issues, and people latched on without educating themselves. There are a ton of well-meaning people who have aligned themselves with these causes without fully understanding what they were signing their names to. Now people have been whipped up into a frenzy over generalizations about the word "gamer" while people like Jenn Frank are being driven from the industry by clueless masses. It's absolutely infuriating to see.

 

[ExVicis]

I quit Twitter years and years ago because even before this sort of controversy seemed to happen every second week every person I wanted to follow either spent most of their tweets responding to dickheads or acting like a dickhead. It wasn't pleasant.

Something about the site just seems to encourage people to be as vitriolic as possible to one another and for flamewars to start, and I say this as someone who still fairly regularly goes on 4chan.

I find twitter in some ways to be like a giant forum where you can drag and involve almost nearly anyone you want. One of the bigger faults of it. In some ways twitter really leads to a lot of trouble for a lot of people for a lot of different reasons and I really wish people would show more restraint when using it.

At this point it's going to get to (or is already at) youtube comment levels of terrible.

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

This is pretty rich coming from a guy who's famous for acting out negative nerd stereotypes.

 

[Tigress]

Excuse me, every fanbase in history has a toxic element amongst them. I love how you suggest it's my fault lol. Seriously I do feel sorry for the people who suffer harassment in gaming, or movies or football, but you have zero right to try to send me on a guilt trip cause of it. You do not visualise the majority of games because of the minority which is exactly what your reply to me indicates you are doing.

How about this? Instead of griping how you aren't one of them, why not instead condemn the behavior as a gamer who is appalled at other gamers who act like that? Which I think was the point of the person who you responded to (maybe a little oversimplified). You'll do a lot more to make yourself not look like them and you might help in getting people who have that attitude realize that people don't condone their attitude.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

As for the "roots" of this, the roots are the corruptions in the industry. As for the controversy, the heels haven't been stuck on things like specific people as much as it has been exposing multiple examples of why the industry is corrupt and why it must stop. At of day 18 or 19, however you count it of this, that is where it is right now, and it is working.

This never would have happened if not for the slut shaming of Zoe Quinn, and the slut shaming of Zoe Quinn never would have happened if she wasn't already unpopular for acting against what some assholes think all video games should be about. And I can't read two messages in support of this thing without seeing somebody going off on "social justice warriors."

I'm sorry, the movement is tainted. The conversation about corruption in games journalism is probably forever tainted by this shit. People say games journalism is an echo chamber occupied by people with disdain for their audience. Congratulations, you've given them ample fuel for that disdain.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

That's how I feel. I have no idea what any of this is about, and reading some comments has only made me even more confused.

 

[Daingurse]

This thread is making me realize I am not up to speed at all. Good lord.

Edit: It's a damn shame if I need to clarify that I'm not a bigot, just for identifying as a gamer. Because I play games? Hence gamer by definition. Gamer has truly been tarnished in that case.

 

[SenorArdilla]

What's that? Can't keep track of the tri-hourly gamer hashtags.

#DescribeAGamerIn4Words
https://twitter.com/hashtag/describeagamerin4words

 

[John Rabbit]

The recent dialogue about illicit developer/journalist sex and relationships is a small facet of this 'corruption'. 'Journalists' and developers relationships are inappropriately close, they just aren't usually sexual.

you're right, and there's quite literally no evidence to suggest that Zoe Quinn and Nathan Grayson's relationship was anything other than two consenting adults engaging in sexual relations. there's NOTHING "inappropriate" about it, unless you have an issue with two people having sex.

does it make for a moral gray area? absolutely. did Nathan Grayson maintain his journalistic integrity insofar as his relationship with Zoe Quinn was concerned? absolutely.

there's literally no issue there.

 

[Benzychenz]

Am I supposed to care if some people on twitter and youtube are saying gamers are bigots?

Like, no one in real life is going to hear I play games and immediately assume I'm a bigot and hate me.

I don't understand 'internet drama' x___x

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I still have no clue what's going on.

 

[Dio]

How about this? Instead of griping how you aren't one of them, why not instead condemn the behavior as a gamer who is appalled at other gamers who act like that? Which I think was the point of the person who you responded to (maybe a little oversimplified). You'll do a lot more to make yourself not look like them and you might help in getting people who have that attitude realize that people don't condone their attitude.

Why assume he doesn't condemn them already? A lot of the horrible shit I've heard over the years (this is anecdotal so bear with me) was spouted by people under 16 and was easily shut down the moment someone a little bit older than them got on the mic and told them to shut the fuck up and play the video game.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

This is pretty rich coming from a guy who's famous for acting out negative nerd stereotypes.

Key word.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

How about this? Instead of griping how you aren't one of them, why not instead condemn the behavior as a gamer who is appalled at other gamers who act like that? Which I think was the point of the person who you responded to (maybe a little oversimplified). You'll do a lot more to make yourself not look like them and you might help in getting people who have that attitude realize that people don't condone their attitude.

I grew up Muslim. I heard this sort of ridiculous argument all the time: well if you really don't support terrorism why don't you preface every political opinion you have with a condemnation of terrorism? Why doesn't every Muslim preface every political opinion they have with a condemnation of terrorism? It's the same argument as the conservative meme about black people not talking about black-on-black crime. Oh you're black and you want to talk about police brutality? Well why don't you condemn black-on-black crime first?

Suffice to say, I don't much care for this line of argumentation. People shouldn't have to explicitly distance themselves from extremists, it should be assumed unless they say or do something that would cause a reasonable person to assume they agree with extremists.