redwolflim
Neo Member
Well, at least she published around 40~50 scholar articles that is related, or influences to feminist movement and academic, compared to someone who just make "Women VS Trope" Video......
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Boogie2988: I Am NOT A Bigot. Are You?
- Thread starter HUELEN10
- Start date
Well, at least she published around 40~50 scholar articles that is related, or influences to feminist movement and academic, compared to someone who just make "Women VS Trope" Video......
Leigh Alexander's piece does not insult gamers.
Edit:
Let me refrain myself. Leigh Alexander's piece was not meant to insult gamers. Her language, however, obviously insulted a few people who may not have understood the point of the article.
hooijdonk17
Member
I'm saying my inference is that she extracted favorable mentions from reviewers/journalists who ended up having sex with her, which implies they were possibly recepients or expectees of sexual favors before or after the deed. So yes, in a matter of way, I am suggesting that it's a possibility, and nobody wants to talk about it.
where is the evidence for her bribing game reviewers with sex?
PROTIP: this did not happen. with that out of the way, what are you talking about?
edit
jesus christ
possibilities
"why should zoe be left alone"
what about possibilities
what if this thing i've constructed in my head is true
possibilities
plutoknight
Member
Yeah, I had the wrong article in mind. Went and fixed my post.
plagiarize
Banned
Thank you. That's all I was looking for. I don't think these are 'two sides' of an issue or debate or war though. They're two separate issues, and parts of those two sides are at odds with each other.
I'm a gamer. The 'gamersgate' people are trying to make out like every gamer is on their side. To me that is equivalent to the people who are criticizing all gamers. Either way it's taking the fact that I'm a gamer, and presuming or projecting a stance onto me.
The people hiding within #gamergate though... I mean... I don't see a group like that on the other side. Sure, we likely have some corrupt journalists, but are they as bad as those who have thrown actual death threats?
Maybe you think so... but I just don't see how the two issues can be equated myself.
whoosh, right over your head
I honestly have no clue what your example in the first paragraph is supposed to be. Could you rephrase it?
As far as why she seems different, well, it's the reason you quoted me. She panders to your crowd. That's her entire career. She doesn't scold men, like you suggest. Her talks are almost universally about women.
hooijdonk17
Member
She had sex with journalists that wrote favorable mentions of her game as well as a judge on a competition she won.
Your point is?
i'm 30 years old. i've been playing video games all of my life. i have a pretty extensive collection of Japanese video games from the Famicom upwards. While I do enjoy the hobby quite a bit, and I probably have a collection that easily shames many self-identified "gamers", I would never describe myself as one. I like to think of myself as having varied and robust interests in other things. To me, and many others I would imagine, the "gamer" connotation implies an interest in gaming above all else. this means immersion in the "culture", the reduced and/or sacrificed time that eats into things like sociability, or the preference of gaming over all other visual mediums (though I'm not sure how I feel as games as art right now considering the childish reactions displayed by "gamers" when their hobby of choice is shown the tiniest of criticism that all other expressive mediums have endured for quite some time). the highs of gaming simply never reach the highs of good music, literature, art or film. even when I 1CC classic action Japanese action games (my preferred type of game) i don't typically feel i gleaned a new insight or perspective afforded by the aforementioned mediums. it's a different type of hobby that, while important to me, isn't something that i'd use to define me as a person.
She didn't win a competition. She was one of 24 alternative type game nominees in a category that doesn't have winners. Basically an honorable mention for alternative type games.
These favorable mentions do not exist. Unless you count a news article mentioning 50 other Greenlight titles as favorable.
DoktorEvil
Banned
I didn't know who she was or why she was important in indie until all of this "drama", but not liking Zoe Quinn or her game doesn't make you apathetic to progressive causes.
You can follow indie and still not hear of her. I had my interest in actually decent games, like Fez or Braid or Bastion or Shovel Knight. Depression Quest would be the very last idea I would have of a good indie game. It's passable as meeting the bar for being a video game, but it's not good at what it's supposed to be doing, which is manipulating the end user into sympathizing with depression.
Edit: Has she contributed to any bigger indie titles people heard of? Maybe I haven't gotten the big picture here. She could've done work on an indie game I've played.
lorebringer
Member
I know right, it's almost as if there's actually some other reason this whole shitstorm kicked off in the first place and all this "journalism" shit is just a weak ass smokescreen for the real issue people have.
Oh.
hooijdonk17
Member
The article singles out two of the fifty games, and curiously depression quest, which should arguably not have even been greenlighted, is one.
why's that?
SerTapTap
Member
This is how I feel when people post things like this on Twitter:
I would as well, but I'm seeing a lot of it from people who's opinions I respect, and who, oddly enough, are definitely gamers. Otherwise I'd just block them immediately, or better yet I wouldn't see their posts in the first place. I guess it really depends who you follow, but if you follow a lot of devs and journalists on twitter I don't think you could claim that no one is excessively backlashing against "gamers".
Eniko on Twitter has been making some good points about it (do not yell at her if you disagree, yell at me).
KojiKnight
Member
This thread quickly derailed into a witch hunt...
Not even going to address the competition thing then?
As far as greenlight, have you seen Greenlight, actually? Outside of the first couple months, it has been incredibly easy to get greenlit. It's not a feat of strength.
plagiarize
Banned
Just so we're clear, I wasn't implying that you were using vitriol in this thread
I do disagree though that vitriol should be used at all, even with the people who truly are incredibly sexist or saying horrible things. If someone is doing that they are either super ignorant, or a super asshole. If the former, there is a chance at education and improvement that 'mean words' won't solve. If the latter, they have then succeeded in bringing you down to their level. You won't convince an asshole not to be an asshole. The only thing you can do with people like that is isolate them as best you can from public communities to keep it from spreading.
Don't think for one second I think I can convince someone not to be a sexist by yelling at them.
But I think I can convince them that if they want to say sexist things that they can't expect civil discourse, and I think I can convince some people who might lend their voices in support not to.
Like I said earlier, gaming seems to be an environment that either attracts more of these people or that more of these people think they are free to be openly bigoted within.
Vitriol can definitely change that perception I think.
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
They've apparently found their leader/hero. (Mind you, the usage of that poster here calling for Sommers to be 'their leader' is quite strange)
Anyway, this video, just like the totalbiscuit article, just serves to totally derail this whole discussion. Not particularly impressed.
It's what happens to pretty much every thread even remotely discussing this issue on GAF. It's extremely discouraging, and gotten to the point where I don't even have the willpower to read through them anymore.
redwolflim
Neo Member
You have to play the game and understand why. Steam has it for free. The reason it sparked so many controversies is some gamers claimed that it is a low-effort visual novel game (Note: I dont have anything against this type of game, I played some in my PSP) compare to other indie games.
hooijdonk17
Member
What is there to address, she slept with the judge who picked the 20 odd games. If you want to address anything, feel free.
"I am not a bigot. Are you?"
He uses this line to basically set up a premise that because most gamers are pretty good people, criticism shouldn't be leveled against them, that education about harassment & misogyny isn't really needed because most of us are stand up people. He's right that the majority of gamers, but he's wrong about the need for criticism. It's through change that we grow and thrive. But, part of the real problem here is that the "good" gamers don't confront the ones doing wrong. If someone tries, they're immediately yelled down as a "white knight" or whatever terminology is in vogue.
Let me leave it with this, if the line he used was the one below would you still agree people shouldn't jump in to defend others, would you still say that women should just defend themselves would you still say we don't need education and criticism of the environment we create? There are far too many parallels to dismiss it out of hand ...
"I'm not a rapist. Are you?"
He uses this line to basically set up a premise that because most gamers are pretty good people, criticism shouldn't be leveled against them, that education about harassment & misogyny isn't really needed because most of us are stand up people. He's right that the majority of gamers, but he's wrong about the need for criticism. It's through change that we grow and thrive. But, part of the real problem here is that the "good" gamers don't confront the ones doing wrong. If someone tries, they're immediately yelled down as a "white knight" or whatever terminology is in vogue.
Let me leave it with this, if the line he used was the one below would you still agree people shouldn't jump in to defend others, would you still say that women should just defend themselves would you still say we don't need education and criticism of the environment we create? There are far too many parallels to dismiss it out of hand ...
"I'm not a rapist. Are you?"
I've played the game before. It's not my preference but it doesn't make it any less of a video game.
lorebringer
Member
Oh shit good point, this is GTA "oscar worthy story" stuff right here. He clearly called out Depression Quest by name because he was getting some amirite.
SerTapTap
Member
Two things:
1:The "corruption" arguments going on aren't really on topic with the OP, no need to drag that shit in here, thanks.
2: You mean "conflict of interest" not "corruption", I don't know what it is about this whole bruahaha but almost no one has used "corruption" properly in this context. Not that it's on topic, it's not.
1:The "corruption" arguments going on aren't really on topic with the OP, no need to drag that shit in here, thanks.
2: You mean "conflict of interest" not "corruption", I don't know what it is about this whole bruahaha but almost no one has used "corruption" properly in this context. Not that it's on topic, it's not.
I like the idea you're espousing here, but the problem is, what's the proposed action?
Here we stand in a forum that's probably the most prevalent lightning rod of thoughtful discussion and moderation in the picture of gaming discussion, and that's great! But NeoGAF, for all its might, feels no better equipped to reroute or rebuff any whirlwind of tribalistic activist tripe that 4chan and its ilk send rushing towards the gaming community, than a toothpick is able to reroute a river.
How do we export someplace like NeoGAF's reasoned approach to the community at large? For all the immense growth we've had, all the notoriety we have with the development community, the actual influence of our ethos within the big picture of gaming communities still seems like it amounts to a speck of sand within a vast desert of unchecked anarchy.
Address what? Her sex life being her own business?
Criticism are fine. We need it. Trying to get rid of a label and tell people how they should or shouldn't identify themselves....that is where I'm lost in this argument.
That the argument is so poorly handled is why you have reaction videos like this.
Oh it's easy eh? Please. Maybe if you have friends in the right places.
plutoknight
Member
Yeah, after scrolling through her twitter feed, I..she's just a Conservative Feminist (which is kind of an oxymoron..)
I'll have to go through my Pocket/Read it Later lists, but, what I'm trying to say is that there are two types of social activists (this doesn't apply to specifically feminism, though it's certainly one of the most prominent social activist movement at this point in time):
1. Those who believe in equality for all, through promoting peaceful/semi-peaceful means to their end
2. Those who believe in equality for all, by simply taking the kinds of violence they've been subject to and lobbing it back ("You think I'm a bigot?! WELL YOU'RE A BIGOT!" in the simplest sense)
One of these is detrimental to society and leads to things like entire identities being erased through symbolic violence, and the other of these isn't powerful enough to gain any traction because it doesn't involve any showmanship or outrageous tactics; it's rather subtle, muted.
There is a 'War on Men' in this country, and many feminists acknowledge it and know that they should be convincing men to join their cause, not fighting against them. And there are many feminists that believe the opposite of that, too. Lovers vs. Fighters, in the simplest sense.
If we have to have a leader, can it be her? I'll admit to not knowing who that is at all but I like her based on that one tweet.
Plus, the more I look at Christina Sommers, the more she looks like Ann Coulter to me.
Wow... I cant believe a prominent member wrote above. What is wrong with this world?
Gaming is not about politics, it is not supposed to solve world problems.
You painting complete community in negative light is horribly wrong and not factual at all.
as far i am aware the greenlight list post was before their relationship, maybe my information is out of date
furthermore, one might say that in any list of recently greenlit games you pick a few of the more popular games to mention, that's just what people do, and depression quest was easily one few higher profile games on the list, and that's the end of that conspiracy
edit/ you are banned, oh and also btw there was three games singled out and i'd say depression quest was the one with the most publicity, i've never even heard of tangiers and treasure adventure world, and i knew of depression quest via giant bomb and her previous harassment
More and more gamers are flocking to youtube personalities and twitch etc for both gaming-based entertainment and information. Boogie has done videos in the past saying how literally corrupt these non-journalistic outfits are (or can be). The attacks on gaming journalism due to gamergate has pushed good, legitimate gaming journalists out of the business, and the group polarization of people rallying behind this "movement" have pushed gamers away from legitimate publications that, while they may have some disclosure issues specifically related to the new phenomenon of crowdsourcing, they have already been addressed. No one is winning in this so-called fight. Continuing to harass socially-liberal journalists and the people who support them only causes them to hunker down and see your harassment as just more examples if anti-social or misogynistic behavior, especially if you do it with well-worn and well-debunked unsourced gifs and jpegs. Gamers don't win with this.
Tell me who the developers of noted shitfests like Garry's Incident and Air Control are friends with.
SerTapTap
Member
lorebringer
Member
It's really depressing, even here where people get banned for the most egregious shitposts the overall attitude is still either actively hostile to or indifferent to the actual issues with widespread misogyny and underrepresentation. I don't even know if there is anything that can be done other than ignoring the worst offenders, but the recent conflation of a whole host of semi related things under the umbrella of a "movement" that began life as vitriolic smear campaign against specific individuals has fooled a lot of people that should know better into implicitly supporting some horrible people. All of this began the second an opening came up that could be used to attack specific individuals that are perceived as being pro feminist and it was vicious and gender focused from the start.
But, it's not funny. It's both inflammatory and reductive.
I've stayed out of the 'Quinnspiracy' and 'Anita death threats' stuff other than to say both events were pretty vile. I have no idea what #gamergate is. The beginning and end of it to me was that people shouldn't be throwing private information about their ex-partners online and that online death/rape threats should be treated as a crime.
But #killallmen or whatever helps nothing. It's just meant to further enflame idiots.
lorebringer
Member
Stop using facts and logic it's damaging to the narrative.
I'd use the P word here but that just makes them angrier.
I didn't say it was definite. Greenlight is a mess it seems.
The effects and consequences of the vitriol hashtag is obviously controversial, I definitely agree with that. But using a screenshot of someone tweeting #killallmen to say that people are getting harassed by women or people wishing for justice is incredibly flawed and fallacious. It is implicitly equating the actual harassment that especially women constantly receive to a joke about how misguided and misunderstanding the opposition of feminism are.
I can't believe I have to write this out: Feminists don't want to kill all men. The human race would die. It would also be incredibly impossible to kill half of the world's population (especially when that population have most if not all of the power :lol)
So yeah, #killallmen should be a joke obvious to anyone.
Steve Youngblood
Member
To be fair, I do think sometimes that people that might very well just be passionate activists espousing a cause they truly believe in could benefit from taking some care to account for the fact that there are going to be a good number of people reading what they are writing that aren't already inundated with the conversation. I personally agree with statements that we don't need to be defensive about labels. I.e., if someone calls out "gamers," I know they're probably not talking about ALL gamers. I don't need that spelled out for me.
However, the conversation can go a little more smoothly I think if some take steps to clarify just who specifically they are talking about. The conversation is contentious as is. The situation isn't helped when people proceed to just talk past each other because nobody is on the same page.
plutoknight
Member
While this is more about symbolic/textual violence instead of physical violence, do you think physical violence is worse? I'm sure if you asked around, many people would argue against physical violence being worse, even if they didn't realize it.
I can agree in the larger context, people need to step back and look at the reality of the situation. Even if you think you were offended or insulted, that's nothing compared to what people have to deal with daily in this industry/hobby.
But I still don't get why there is a focus to get rid of gamer as a label. Because it's true, not every single gamer is a piece of shit that is resisting criticism and change. And while I understand that's a weak argument being used to deflect criticism (much needed criticism), trying to tell everyone that identifies themselves as gamers to stop identifying as such, at least to me seems like a poor way to go about all of this.
plagiarize
Banned
Criticize people being openly bigoted. Report any bigotry you see to the appropriate channels. I mean, that's what I'm going with anyways. Focus on the problem.
plutoknight
Member
It is a very poor way to go about it; you don't try to destroy a group of people because they are against you; you find out the root cause of the problem and work to change the social attitudes and conditions that allow for whatever issue you have with a group to exist.