#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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EmCeeGramr
Member
Guys, if we wanted to be reminded that people can post dumb shit on 4chan, we could can just go there ourselves. Same reason we discourage "look at these screencaps of awful YouTube comments or random tweets" in these sorts of threads.
neurosisxeno
Member
That will absolutely never happen in the United States. Maybe places like Crytek and CD Projekt, but you will never see game developers in the United States unionized.
shacklesmcgee
Member
my bad, I just can't believe that they are trying to paint themselves as the saviors of gaming and that they are protecting the rights of everyone when that thread is the first thing I saw on the page.
Since Jason Schreier talked about the interesting stuff on #gameethics, I made a new thread only focusing on GameEthics.
@mods: If it is too soon and that the discussion is unable to divorce itself from Gamergate, please lock the thread. I apologize in advance if I've made a mistake :/
Edit: i already regret posting it after the first couple of replies. Sorry about that
Edit2: thanks for locking it, whoever mod that did it
@mods: If it is too soon and that the discussion is unable to divorce itself from Gamergate, please lock the thread. I apologize in advance if I've made a mistake :/
Edit: i already regret posting it after the first couple of replies. Sorry about that
Edit2: thanks for locking it, whoever mod that did it
Perhaps but even it being mentioned is progress. People need to realise that 'crunch' is not acceptable.
neurosisxeno
Member
There are companies that are starting to move away from "Crunch Time" but that's not exactly something that exists exclusively in the Game Development industry. It happens in every medium where you deal with contracts and time limits. Any time you are contractually obligated to deliver a product for a buyer you will probably hit a point where you have to do a lot of work and finish it in a little time.
The only way a union would help deal with that is to help negotiate the amount of time developers have to finish a project, or negotiate extenstions so developers didn't get screwed by progress goals. What they really need to fix are problems like "Meta-Critic Bonuses" and "Producer/Stock-Holder" influence. These things damage the actual integrity of the products, and often result in studios making hundreds of thousands or even millions od dollars less off a product.
Others have confronted the factual inaccuracies of your baseline premise here, but I think it's pertinent and important to the subject that you're vilifying people like me for "parroting" Anita Sarkeesian and speaking for women, whereas the assumption presented in your post that there must be a corollary link between the increase of female gamers and a presumed safety in that sphere - despite numerous protests and actions which point to the contrary - is a more toxic agenda than anything the former could be trying to accomplish.
I'm not trying to put words into any woman's mouth. I just want to recognize that women know better than men their own experiences in this community. Too many gamers, too many people of privilege throughout history, refuse to accept that.
While I'm steeling myself for this thread again, on #GameEthics:
I feel that any movement which has to initially define itself by its extrication from another is doomed to be in the original's shadow, so I definitely feel it's too early for some new hashtag (to say nothing of the fact that #GamerGate's proponents seem to believe it is a Social Justice Warrior ploy to divide and conquer them).
Essentially, you are attempting to give those who've already had a chance to speak, with #GamerGate, just another channel on the hope it won't be coopted by abusiveness, without really any consideration to the victims of the initial wave. Let them have time to recuperate - it's not for anyone else to further this discussion.
While the scant issues I've seen raised are valid and things that I personally do disapprove of in this industry, in the wake of the last several weeks, going hashtag activist over most of it seems embarrassingly trivial and futile.
boogie2988
Banned
I had a lot of time to think today and as soon as I had the chance I sent a few tweets and included the #gamergate tag. I find its the easiest way to communicate with the thousands of others involved in the issue.
Those tweets as always maintained a message of being kind to each other and a call for peace.
I reject that anyone who reads that message along with that hashtag is instantly victimized or instantly triggered or whatever. I imagine its possible but I would imagine It to be very unlikely. If it turns out to be the case and I see reasonable evidence of that, I'll rethink that strategy.
All told I still feel very much for zoe quinn and anita and all other men and women who make this industry either their job or their hobby. I'll continue to preach empathy, common sense, and peace. I'll continue to fight for equality for all people. I'll also continue to do it with that hashtag and if someone wishes to call me a misogynist for doing so that's their prerogative.
Those tweets as always maintained a message of being kind to each other and a call for peace.
I reject that anyone who reads that message along with that hashtag is instantly victimized or instantly triggered or whatever. I imagine its possible but I would imagine It to be very unlikely. If it turns out to be the case and I see reasonable evidence of that, I'll rethink that strategy.
All told I still feel very much for zoe quinn and anita and all other men and women who make this industry either their job or their hobby. I'll continue to preach empathy, common sense, and peace. I'll continue to fight for equality for all people. I'll also continue to do it with that hashtag and if someone wishes to call me a misogynist for doing so that's their prerogative.
You're right, Ropaire. I'm sorry I posted that thread already. The tweets pertaining to the new tag was inspirational and interesting and other developers and feminists were supporting it, so I thought it would be fine, but i realize i was too quick to judge its efficiency. I was too naive.
Thanks to the mod who locked the thread.
Thanks to the mod who locked the thread.
Its worth a try.
Edit:
Little bit lousy post on my part. I know it is harder in USA, but the videogames industry is in dire need of it. The working conditions tend to be atrocious with crunch times, constant fear of getting fired and so on. It really needs to happen.
captainnapalm
Member
The thing that strikes me is what a close knit community the online gaming journalists seem to inhabit. They are like a hive mind. I mean, 10 articles in the space of no time at all declaring "gamers" dead or whatever. I mean, that's kind of bizarre. It was a bad article the first time around.
They all hold the same social views apparently as well and I realize these views are shared by a lot of people on Gaf as well so it's not my intention to offend.
Words like patriarchy and misogyny, male privileges and gazes and whatnot, feature strongly in all their polemics and diatribes.
The thing is, while I am broadly in favor of the concept of equality and fairness for all, I am not a proponent of this kind of academic discourse. They do not form a core part of my beliefs or convictions. I do not self-identify as a feminist. I value the concept of art criticism, but not through this narrow lens.
You might think this is because I am white and male, but the reality is that I am strongly in favor of social, economic and political reform in a way that would benefit all people and likely lead to a reduction of power and privilege for my own demographic. My views on society and the concept of social justice are just different. Some would say more relevant, in fact.
And the thing is, I honestly believe a lot of people are kind of like me in that regard - and that includes women, minorities, majorities, whatever. Most people do not process the world through the academic parameters of discourse favored by so many in gaming culture, and they do not feel the need for the games they play to be beholden to this kind of ideology.
The push is clearly there for people to get with the program and accept the ideology, and if they don't want to, they are demonized and reviled. People have literally tried to write them out of existence.
On the other side, the extreme end of the pushback against the foisting of this ideology is unfortunately what gets all the press - the attacks, threats and abuse directed at certain parties. The 4chan warriors and so on. That's unfortunate. But I believe they are the outliers of a much broader group of rational, sane people.
And like these people, I don't feels game developers need to design and write their games in order to satisfy feminist theories and criticism. I don't see Zoe Quinn as a hero, or even as a very nice person, for that matter.
And when Anita highlighted that scene from RDR in her last video, all I could think was, man, the art and writing is really good - I really have to play that game one day. I didn't care that a woman was being treated badly in the scene, because it was realistically and smartly written, and it represented sexism it didn't endorse it, and most importantly, it wasn't a real woman. It was a plot point.
For me, the particular ideology and belief system that feels that scene in RDR is inappropriate or problematic is misguided, and unfortunately that makes me a problem for a lot of people in gaming.
I still believe I form part of a majority, however, and the more journalists try and push these views as mainstream and dominant, the more I think their influence will continue to shrink and shift to places like Youtube. Basically, there's a reason this kind of discourse doesn't dominate the mainstream of criticism in any other creative sphere. It's because most people haven't, and don't want to, internalize the accompanying ideologies.
They all hold the same social views apparently as well and I realize these views are shared by a lot of people on Gaf as well so it's not my intention to offend.
Words like patriarchy and misogyny, male privileges and gazes and whatnot, feature strongly in all their polemics and diatribes.
The thing is, while I am broadly in favor of the concept of equality and fairness for all, I am not a proponent of this kind of academic discourse. They do not form a core part of my beliefs or convictions. I do not self-identify as a feminist. I value the concept of art criticism, but not through this narrow lens.
You might think this is because I am white and male, but the reality is that I am strongly in favor of social, economic and political reform in a way that would benefit all people and likely lead to a reduction of power and privilege for my own demographic. My views on society and the concept of social justice are just different. Some would say more relevant, in fact.
And the thing is, I honestly believe a lot of people are kind of like me in that regard - and that includes women, minorities, majorities, whatever. Most people do not process the world through the academic parameters of discourse favored by so many in gaming culture, and they do not feel the need for the games they play to be beholden to this kind of ideology.
The push is clearly there for people to get with the program and accept the ideology, and if they don't want to, they are demonized and reviled. People have literally tried to write them out of existence.
On the other side, the extreme end of the pushback against the foisting of this ideology is unfortunately what gets all the press - the attacks, threats and abuse directed at certain parties. The 4chan warriors and so on. That's unfortunate. But I believe they are the outliers of a much broader group of rational, sane people.
And like these people, I don't feels game developers need to design and write their games in order to satisfy feminist theories and criticism. I don't see Zoe Quinn as a hero, or even as a very nice person, for that matter.
And when Anita highlighted that scene from RDR in her last video, all I could think was, man, the art and writing is really good - I really have to play that game one day. I didn't care that a woman was being treated badly in the scene, because it was realistically and smartly written, and it represented sexism it didn't endorse it, and most importantly, it wasn't a real woman. It was a plot point.
For me, the particular ideology and belief system that feels that scene in RDR is inappropriate or problematic is misguided, and unfortunately that makes me a problem for a lot of people in gaming.
I still believe I form part of a majority, however, and the more journalists try and push these views as mainstream and dominant, the more I think their influence will continue to shrink and shift to places like Youtube. Basically, there's a reason this kind of discourse doesn't dominate the mainstream of criticism in any other creative sphere. It's because most people haven't, and don't want to, internalize the accompanying ideologies.
This seems reasonable to me.
MHWilliams
Member
So, here's some relevant critic guidelines from one of the best, Roger Ebert.
A pretty solid list that most of the journalists in my immediate sphere stick to.
A pretty solid list that most of the journalists in my immediate sphere stick to.
boogie2988
Banned
I am definitely doubling down on my strategy of calling for kindness and equality in all this and fuck all else. Honestly its all I've ever wanted anyways.
If those members of the press can keep from calling me a high functioning neckbeard just for liking video games for a while, then I'll just keep reminding people to stop being assholes for a while.
lets see where that gets us.
If those members of the press can keep from calling me a high functioning neckbeard just for liking video games for a while, then I'll just keep reminding people to stop being assholes for a while.
lets see where that gets us.
The problem here is that you're not presenting an equally valid and learned ideology as Anita Sarkeesian. As you say, you are a white male and don't identify as a feminist. When you watch a scene from Red Dead Redemption that features a sexist act, it doesn't naturally occur to you that this has an insidious effect on the oppressed, because privilege puts blinders on people and Tropes vs. Women is a series attempting to teach exactly why these scenes are harmful, even though they may not individually seem so at first glance.
See, no one asked you your opinion on Zoe Quinn, and your perception on how she handled her last relationship has no relevance to your life and it was fallacy from the beginning that it had something to do with ethics in the game industry. What matters isn't that you think people are hero worshipping her, what matters is that people took her alleged promiscuity as an excuse for a poorly veiled misogynist witch hunt under the banner of a gamer rights cause and got a lot of people tied up into it - both the harassed and people like you, who now see this as an issue which is relevant to them and demands their attention.
I know you think you've been hearing a lot about the patriarchy and misogyny in games lately, and it's starting to make you feel slightly persecuted, but you said it yourself - you are the majority. You don't have to believe it - you are a straight, white, man and the point of being so is not to say "OK, let's hope that the marginalized are eventually silenced and relegated once again." It's a good thing that the minority are capable of speaking up, raising awareness, and asking for inclusion. Your job is to listen, not to offer your take on the matter - because that's what got us here in the first place - and not to wait for them to go away.
Hey Boogie I think you are a good guy and your message of kindness all around is spot on but by continuing to associate with the GamerGate tag you're attaching yourself to something that isn't just about being a gamer and fighting for better journalism. The demands are too unorganized, the voices too hateful, the "anti-SJW" calls too loud. You should check out Zoe Quinn's Twitter if you get a chance -- she's tweeting logs from the IRC channel that has been helping organize GamerGate, and it's really scary stuff.
moondoggerr
Banned
You are almost absolutely right. I used "Candy Crush Saga" as shorthand for "casual smartphone games" and assumed that everyone would understand what I meant. However, I have linked to an article that suggests that this is correct. It's there.
Here's another: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/games/10...s-are-sweet-on-computer-game-Candy-Crush.html
Here's another: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2013/10/is-candy-crush-saga-a-money-drainer-for-women/
Here's another: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25334716
Here's another: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/may/11/candy-crush-saga-games
Here's one specifically crunching the data that shows more women than men play smartphone games: http://www.iacquire.com/blog/smartphone-activities-study
and here's some more demographic data: http://www.bigfishgames.com/blog/20...ts-demographics-platforms-and-smartphone-use/
There's no larger point. I'm not trying to suggest women aren't "real gamers". I'm just saying that although the percentage of women as gamers is increasing, it's increasing slower on consoles and one of the reasons for that is that the console space is, to varying degrees, hostile to women.
I like you boogie but you are trashing your reputation by stubbornly continuing to attach your name to a hashtag that is a confirmed coordinated misogynist hate and harassment campaign and making ridiculous strawmans of the opposing argument. You seem more concerned about how gamers are perceived and defending this as an identity than the goal of making minorities and women feel safe and included in gaming communities. Just because people are speaking out against abuse and the very real problems of homophobia, transphobia, misogyny and racism in gaming circles doesn't mean you have to take it as a personal slight. Claiming it's just a minority doing this is dismissive as is this hollow call for peace which comes across as telling people to stop talking about these issues. People have a right to be angry about the micro-aggressions, abuse, harassment and bigotry that they are on the receiving end of and if that means being done with gamers as a group, you have to take that on the chin.
You have got this desperately, badly wrong and I hope you see that soon.
boogie2988
Banned
Hi jason. I just want you to know before I type anything I have the utmost respect for you, I hope that doesnt get lost in this message.
There are only a handful of people involved in gamergate that the things zoe posted relates to. Its a circle jerk of 500 people in an IRC chat and zoe herself. I am in no way associated with them.
I am however associated with the tens of thousands of other gamers involved in the movement who likewise have no ideas about nor desires towards zoe quinn, or the handful of people who harass her.
I'll continue to use #gamergate to communicate with those people because its the only way that I have to do so at this time. If that hashtag changes I will change with it.
I reject the idea that using that hashtag somehow instantly victimizes someone or instantly harasses them. If I see substantial proof that my readers are being harmed by my tweets using that hashtag then I'll be glad to readjust but until then, its the only way to get across that message to those people.
I have also not only checked out zoe's twitter but tweeted her my most sincere regrets and apologies. She seems to be ok with me, and my use of the hashtag. I hope you can find it in your heart to agree with her on that.
christ, how can you be so continuously obtuse about how this "movement" is severely flawed? Just stop posting if you're going to repeat the same worthless thing over and over in this thread.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Personally, I'd propose a slight re-wording. The point/job isn't to 'shut up and listen' (at least, in the sense of anything ever getting accomplished utilizing that mentality)
'don't broadcast your own ideas at the expense of using them to disregard what people outside of your perspective are saying' seems like it might be more adroitly put.
The end goal (or at least I'd presume so) is for the majority (i.e. male, white developers, gamers, producers, etc...) is to understand and open a discourse with the minority (women uncomfortable with the AAA or elements of the Indy sphere of gaming), and discuss how/why this repeated marginalization of women that often happens in games has occurred, and how to change it for the better.
The harassment issue is a whole other bucket of worms. It's related, but I don't know if there's been any hard data correlation on the perceived effects of long-term gaming with misogynistic behavior outside of the obvious vocal groups currently doing so.
Dr. Hoofington
Neo Member
I just wanted to quote this again for emphasis. It's something I've tried to take to heart in these discussions. If you're anything like me, sometimes it's really hard not to speak up and share your opinion, but listening instead is not only an important part of empathizing, but also opens space for people who have a harder time making themselves heard.
boogie2988
Banned
I have no idea about being obtuse, but let me try to reiemphasize my mission statement.
My only stake in this is simply making sure that the idea of playing video games makes you a woman hating shitlord isn't taken as gospel. I also only care that people are as kind as they can be and I'm doing everything I can to preach that message to everyone involved.
I have absolutely no idea how that's considered obtuse simply because I disagree with your personal beliefs on the matter.
Come on, man, you've been in the threads on /v/, right? It takes about five minutes of reading to realize that there are major ulterior motives behind the hashtag. The people organizing #Gamergate (if you can call it organizing) have an agenda that is very much not about equality or treating all people well, and they have to actively tell people to behave to maintain the illusion that this is an apolitical coalition of concerned gamers.
The way I see it, associating with Gamergate because you want transparency and accountability in the gaming press is like teaming up with 9/11 truthers because you want transparency in government. It kind of works on a certain abstract level but it requires you to ignore or not notice some major things. Try #gameethics and don't give those 4chan clowns the time of day. Taking the wind out of their sails is both easier and more productive than trying to co-opt their shitty movement for a decent purpose.
boogie2988
Banned
If that proves to be the truth in the end, I'll guess I'll have to learn to live with my mistakes. But if my biggest mistake in this life is using a hashtag like this to promote equality and kindness, then I think I'll be ok.
Another strawman.
boogie2988
Banned
I've been in threads on such websites every day and any person who says anything that's not on the topic of media transparancy and media reform is instantly shunned for the most part. Then again I've never been in whatever war-room zoe's screenshots supposedly come from so I honestly can't say for sure.
But all I want at this point is to use that hashtag to remind people every day to chill the fuck out and stop being pricks. If that's wrong, I'm glad to be wrong.
picklecannon
Member
There is hate on both sides though, and its publicly available for those who want to stay informed. See https://medium.com/@sixthman/who-is-harassed-more-f81799a2f550 who compiled it nicely in a blog post. The difference is one side is using it to decry an entire movement, while the other side is ignoring it and continuing to spread their message. The actions of few should not invalidate the voices of many. Neither side supports harassment or doxing or death threats or what have you. It's terrible and it's a shame that it's even happening, but because it is happening doesn't mean either side is more correct.
Also as an aside; to suggest that a few people in IRC are the ring leaders of the entire thing is pretty out there. There's been more than a quarter million tweets with the hashtag over the ~3 weeks that this has been going on. It's literally like saying that Bish controls everyone on neogaf, except neogaf can't be easily accessed by anybody.
You might have good intentions but you are going about it in completely the wrong way and doing more harm than good.
If you're so concerned about the reputation of gamers as a group you should support efforts to "clean house" and not be so dismissive of the problems within games and gaming communities just because you think it reflects poorly on gamers. You are working counter to your own goals.
You're doing it wrong, that's the problem.
JesseEwiak
Member
The irony is, that of course, it's likely the small-time bloggers and such who are posing with game designers and such. Even though I'm sure there's an example from IGN or Gamespot that totally makes this false. But, after interviewing the guys from Naughty Dog for the 19th time in the Uncharted cycle, you're not starry eyed anymore.
boogie2988
Banned
Cleaning house does not have to begin with articles like "all gamers are nerds" or "all gamers are screaming children" or "all gamers are neckbearded misogynists"
I'll stop screaming we ARENT when they stop screaming WE ARE.
When there is a moderation conversation that starts with "A very small minority of people who play games are assholes" I'll be more than glad to join in that conversation. In fact I already have many, many times on my channel. You should check them out. You could start here if you wanted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOZ06Bjlp_k
(sorry if this is against the rules of 'self promotion', just using the video to make a point.)
boogie2988
Banned
provide me an easier way to communicate with the tens of thousands of riled up moderates via twitter without using the #gamergate hashtag and I'll consider doing that instead.
MHWilliams
Member
That happened to me with Naoki Yoshida. I want to say... PAX last year? I declined. Yeah, it did strike me as odd.
You do you, Boog. You seem like a nice enough guy. A bit misguided, but I can't hate on you for that.
On this:
What exactly are you looking for?
captainnapalm
Member
Couldn't you just as easily turn that statement around and point it at people like Sarkeesian? You can't expect people to silence their own opinions and ignore their own perspectives. I wouldn't expect Sarkeesian to do that, and nor should that be expected of me. Nothing I said in my post was attempting to silence people. They're free to carry on doing what they do.
boogie2988
Banned
I grew up in the 1980's which was the tail end of real reporting. I don't know if you've ever seen shows like the "News room" which gets it as wrong as it does right, but there was a period of time when dan rather took the stage and simply reported the news.
In my own personal dreams gaming journalism would do the exact same thing. But at the very least it would be nice if these journals could at least approach the topics of women and gaming and equality in a non extremist no click-bait oriented way. If that's all that came out of this that would be grand.
I'll be the FIRST to tell you that women in gaming is a worthy topic, one that needs discussion. I witnessed first hand at a magic event a year ago when my wife approached the desk and the owner of the store said "I bet you lovely ladies arent here to play are you? wheres your boyfriends?" I almost lost my fucking shit on that guy.
But without moderation on these articles the conversation simply cannot exist.
if I had only one wish today it would be to strip away sensationalism in modern day gaming journalism.
But moving forward I'm done with that. I'll avoid talking about it using the #gamergate hashtag. I'll only be using that hashtag to preach moderation and kindness from all involved from here on out.
RyanPierre
Member
That's a nice compilation of links related to Candy Crush Saga/smartphone gaming, but I don't see how they're relevant. Would you mind quoting where in these articles it states the vast majority of women gamers are those who play smartphone games?
I'm also a little confused why you mentioned that more women than men play smartphone games, as that's not something I would dispute - nor is it relevant to the gaming habit breakdown of women gamers.
This is how I read your statement:
"If all that came out of #gamergate is that minorities talked about their issues in games in a way I deem appropriate, that would be great"
Really?
More strawmen.
So what if it's a minority doing it (based on my experiences with WoW I am not convinced it even is a minority let alone a very small one)? Every woman I have known has experienced some combination of micro-aggressions, sexist remarks/"jokes", rape threats and the like. It's a big problem and much more important than your sensibilities getting hurt because some female games journalist can't be bothered to put up with it any longer.
No not really. Either respond to what he wrote or don't bother. Making up crap that you think you read is disingenuous at best.
Whats your experience with WoW?
I feel like WoW is one of the most inclusive games I've played. Besides the once in a blue moon vent troll.
boogie2988
Banned
if that's how you read it, you need new glasses because its certainly not what I wrote. <3
I do not dismiss any woman's feelings or experiences nor do I ignore the picture as a whole. Please don't imply that I do.
But accusing me of it simply because I play video games is something I cannot abide. I've done nothing against women and done everything for equal rights that I can.
I'll no sooner sit by and allow people to claim that the person that sent anita those pictures represents me any quicker than i'll allow some guy to say "Because one women I met was crazy all women are the same."
that type of generalization is simply not something I can stomach in silence.
boogie2988
Banned
I agree. I played on proudmoore the unofficial 'gaymer' server, and it included routine gay pride parades in booty bay and it was awesome there. If you dared call someone the F-word you'd be forced to server change.
JesseEwiak
Member
That's the thing. Throughout this entire thread, what has the "pro-SJW" side to use a silly phrase brought up that's "extreme?"
Hey Boogie! You're doing great man. People who consider themselves moderate like myself generally aren't as loud as the feminists or 4channers. So I hope you still hear our thanks for conducting yourself the way you are. Keep it up mate.
But by supporting that hashtag, you're supporting the message sent by people who don't believe that game journalists should talk about progressive issues at all. The people on GamerGate who are declaring themselves "anti-SJW" are generally not doing so because they care about feminist issues and think game journalists and critics like Anita Sarkeesian approach those issues in the wrong way; these people want to do away with the discussion entirely. Attaching yourself to GamerGate as a voice of moderation is sorta like attaching yourself to the Tea Party and asking everyone to just relax with the hatred. Your intentions might be good, but it's sending an awful message.
Have you considered denouncing some of GamerGate's hateful leaders, like Adam Baldwin, the Breitbart guy, the YouTubers, etc?
MHWilliams
Member
That's only one kind of journalism, straight news reporting. There's also investigative journalism and cultural criticism. They all happen in tandem in a healthy industry.
"These journalists" is as broad as the "gamer" generalizations you decry. There are many great, non-incendiary articles on those topics.
An interesting point, but the problem is "sensationalism" is difficult to define. If it's only less incendiary language, I can understand that.
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