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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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Sharing this conversation I tweeted because I think it's pretty important: https://storify.com/jasonschreier/gamergate

How many of the people "fighting for better journalism" even know what that actually means?

Many times when I've seen people say they want "objectivity" they actually want news with a bias that agrees with them. When an article pops up on some website that takes their side it's hailed as "professional journalism."

Completely objective reporting in games writing would be boring and useless, since it would essentially boil down to press releases and fact sheets straight from the publishers.
 
I just took a look at their Twitter...it looks like they challenged you to a debate (but may have accidentally addressed someone else).

:lol

That's why they got silent after I explained to them the likely reasons why the account wasn't approved.
 
Based on the last couple of days and last few pages of posts; I don't think it is a woman thing (any more at least), I think it is a "people who disagree with us" thing. Pretty sure besada got threatened to get doxxed, and I don't think Phil Fish qualifies as a woman. Anyone they think it will work on who is not on their side will be targeted with the death threats and the harassment and etc. :(

Alas, the law side of our society has not figured out how to adapt to the internet as a whole yet; since you don't necessarily have a single country of origin, and thus, jurisdiction, our laws have not caught up with cybercrime at all. See; online harassment, hacking attacks on major institutions, etc. :/

Yes, that's true.

But they do realize that if there are more girls entering the work place there will be more and more cries about sexual harassment and unequal treatment. There's going to keep on being more and more gendered problems because the industry isn't used to addressing sexism and usually refuses to. People saying it doesn't even exist..as their doing it. Anyone who takes it seriously is harassed to death for speaking up.

This is an extremely toxic environment. I feel like these people are living in the Middle ages. It's basically a debate over people who see a problem and want change vs. people who believe everything is perfect right now. This is all very silly.
 
Sharing this conversation I tweeted because I think it's pretty important: https://storify.com/jasonschreier/gamergate

How many of the people "fighting for better journalism" even know what that actually means?

I feel like all the (relatively) good conversation had in the last two years (roughly post-'DoritosGate') has been partially flushed down the toilet and now any mention of the state of games journalism has been heavily tainted for the foreseeable future thanks to this #GG shit. Damn shame.
 
Yes, that's true.

But they do realize that if there are more girls entering the work place there will be more and more cries of sexual harassment and unequal treatment. There's going to keep on being more and more gendered problems because the industry isn't used to addressing sexism and usually refuses to. Anyone who takes it seriously is harassed to death for speaking up.

This is an extremely toxic environment. I feel like these people are living in the Middle ages. It's basically a debate over people who see a problem and want change vs. people who believe everything is perfect right now. This is very silly.

It is; I mean, the next generation of game developers are going to be significantly closer to 50/50 than anyone expects. The shift of women working as a whole was rather sudden (mostly facilitated by WWII) in the terms of history; our generation (I am 29) is the first generation of Americans where women are more or less expected to work. First generation. Not surprised (but am saddened) at the freaking out going on.

This is why I worry about racism in gaming currently; the reason sexism is a "big deal" now is that you have a very large influx of women into what were traditionally male dominated (and thus oriented) areas. While the discussion is sad, it's happening because it is now more or less inevitable; women have the power to speak up and go "wtf is this BS". With race...you're not really even seeing the conversation because there's not anyone in real power to say anything. :/
 
It is; I mean, the next generation of game developers are going to be significantly closer to 50/50 than anyone expects. The shift of women working as a whole was rather sudden (mostly facilitated by WWII) in the terms of history; our generation (I am 29) is the first generation of Americans where women are more or less expected to work. First generation. Not surprised (but am saddened) at the freaking out going on.

This is why I worry about racism in gaming currently; the reason sexism is a "big deal" now is that you have a very large influx of women into what were traditionally male dominated (and thus oriented) areas. While the discussion is sad, it's happening because it is now more or less inevitable; women have the power to speak up and go "wtf is this BS". With race...you're not really even seeing the conversation because there's not anyone in real power to say anything. :/

Likewise, Ferguson gave us a good time to bring it up. (So did the Zimmerman thing) The police don't treat African Americans with respect, and often see us all as crooks. It shouldn't matter what we're wearing or what color we are...but it does to them. That's a terrible situation that needs to be talked about. And it's the same scenario basically. In the game industry women are seen as potential sluts and attention whores trying to ruin everything. Honestly, it shouldn't matter if a black kid wears a hoodie or if a woman had sex with someone. Being angry about that comes from archaic cultural perceptions of others. It's hard to say where either discussion will go. How do you make light of that prejudice? I think it's more likely to be ignored and swept under the rug over ever becoming fairly addressed.

Though maybe that's my cynical side speaking. "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
 
Has the Escapist's Alexander Macris always been this, um, colorful?
g0jAzHe.png
 
I feel like all the (relatively) good conversation had in the last two years (roughly post-'DoritosGate') has been partially flushed down the toilet and now any mention of the state of games journalism has been heavily tainted for the foreseeable future thanks to this #GG shit. Damn shame.
Nah, I don't think so. I mean, I don't think this event has changed all that much for any of us at Kotaku. We will still take ethics very seriously as we have for years. And I'll still be happy to offer my opinions on journalism whenever these things come up.

That Escapist thing, though... wow.
 
Nah, I don't think so. I mean, I don't think this event has changed all that much for any of us at Kotaku. We will still take ethics very seriously as we have for years. And I'll still be happy to offer my opinions on journalism whenever these things come up.

That Escapist thing, though... wow.

The Frankfurt School conspiracy is like entry level tinfoil hat shit. I'm not sure why the guy from the Escapist is even bothering stirring a pot that's been used as ammo by white nationalists and other hate groups.
 
Many times when I've seen people say they want "objectivity" they actually want news with a bias that agrees with them. When an article pops up on some website that takes their side it's hailed as "professional journalism."

More transparency would be a better place for a start.
I'm pretty sure this cultural marxism conspiracy shit is basically entry level anti-semitism. Disgusting.

Edit: Hi /v/! Thanks for the attention.

The majority of Frankfurt School thinkers are jewish. Heck, their conspirational thinking originate from their culture shock when they forced out from Germany to USA because they are Jewish.
 
If the shitheads harassing Zoe and the rest cared that much about things like "facts", this drama would have faded away a month ago.

Nobody cares about Zoe anymore. Whenever I see someone just painting the movement with a broad brush of misogynists who hate women, I die a little inside. The conversation, with the exception of trolls, have shifted from Literally Who a long time ago.

Also, did you know one of her friends went to harass wizardchan, a board that has many depressed users and that even has a suicide hotline hotlinked, on freaking suicide awareness day?

Now that's actual harassment. Shouldn't you guys be against that too?
 
The conversation, with the exception of trolls, have shifted from Literally Who a long time ago.

Also, did you know one of her friends went to harass wizardchan, a board that has many depressed users and that even has a suicide hotline hotlinked, on freaking suicide awareness day?

Yet you can't stop yourself from getting in a dig at her with baseless accusations?

"We aren't talking about her anymore even if she is a terrible person with terrible friends!"
 
Yet you can't stop yourself from getting in a dig at her with baseless accusations?

No I did not. I don't know what's going on in her mind and I don't really particularly care. Though I notice less of gamergate talking about her than those purportedly anti-gamergate. Funny how that works out.

Thanks for assuming otherwise though!
 
Nobody cares about Zoe anymore. Whenever I see someone just painting the movement with a broad brush of misogynists who hate women, I die a little inside. The conversation, with the exception of trolls, have shifted from Literally Who a long time ago.

Also, did you know one of her friends went to harass wizardchan, a board that has many depressed users and that even has a suicide hotline hotlinked, on freaking suicide awareness day?

Now that's actual harassment. Shouldn't you guys be against that too?

It's funny that you go from saying the conversation isn't about her to telling us about her.
 
Nobody was talking about Zoe as the center of the controversy since when realizing that most of the stuff she is being accused turned out to be bullshit, the discussion shifted to some vague ethics thing and objectivity that is limited to people that are perceived as "SJW"
 
This non-industry individual (who I've noticed has been very active in the #GG tag trying to calmly talk about stuff) is hoping to use a Twitterless dialog approach to perhaps find some focus and common ground amidst the hashtag.

http://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/

The majority of the questions are (obviously) for those using the hashtag and I'm pretty sure there are a few supporters in here.

There's also a few questions at the bottom for anyone opposed to the hashtag, asking why.


I hope it works out for her. Definitely interested to see the results, especially if she includes *all* replies, ugly and otherwise. It's almost a shame that she intends to weed out the hearsay replies. Simply taking them and having them all lumped together in a sub-section with an explanation of why they're hearsay might go a long way toward clearing up some of the more rife false/unsubstantiated accusations.
 
As a Muslim gamer, should I care about this #GamerGate thing?

Not really. It's a movement built on a simmering hatred of progressive political speech in and around video games with a coating a legitimacy brought about by people who actually think it's about journalistic ethics.

If you hate progressive political speech though I guess it's for you.
 
As a Muslim gamer, should I care about this #GamerGate thing?

I...I don't know. Gamergate is a movement to stop bad ethics and subjective or "agenda driven" game journalism. This is a movement for people who feel as though they've been talked down to by journalists, authors and developers. I think their desire to be "morally" equal is important to. I don't think we should be banning or stopping people who feel they are being talked down to or censored.

To a lot of others it is a hate movement that has led to an increase in harassment for a few particular women and anyone who has ties to them. A couple of women in the industry have quit because of the increased in harassment and death threats. This is extremely unsettling, because I was under the illusion that gaming culture was starting to be more inclusive.

It's basically a lot of people disagreeing with the push for female equality in the game industry which is typically seen as a more passionately masculine hobby.

I've had this argument when I was 5 years old in school with a couple of boys who thought I had cooties. I didn't expect this to spill into the game industry.
 
Not really. It's a movement built on a simmering hatred of progressive political speech in and around video games with a coating a legitimacy brought about by people who actually think it's about journalistic ethics.

If you hate progressive political speech though I guess it's for you.

Oh dear, I don't want to be part of that. Can you give me an example of this hatred of progressive speech? Not to doubt you or anything but I want to see it with my own eyes.
 
I collected a list of tweets over a period of an hour a few days ago in the hashtag.

https://twitter.com/notmarrec/timelines/509295759876165632


It's a pretty good look at the bias being presented.

I could probably put together a list of tweets from OWS hashtags about how the world is run by Illuminati Jews From The Center of the Earth, but that doesn't mean that OWS was entirely made up of bigoted conspiracy theorist cranks.
 
I could probably put together a list of tweets from OWS hashtags about how the world is run by Illuminati Jews From The Center of the Earth, but that doesn't mean that OWS was entirely made up of bigoted conspiracy theorist cranks.

They asked for an example and I gave them what I had collected. Obviously it doesn't represent every single person, but the undercurrent is there and loud. I'm sure you could breakdown the hashtag into 3 categories:

40% SJW Hate

40% Retweeting of contextless images and videos

20% people actually interested in journalism.

At least that how it appears to me superficially from monitoring it for 3-4 days.
 
As a Muslim gamer, should I care about this #GamerGate thing?

Another peculiar aspect of the hashtag is the conflicting arguments within it. It's been appropriated by so many angry individuals and groups, for well-intentioned purposes and much uglier ones, that's it's honestly just a steaming mess.

I've seen #GamerGate used as a movement to rail against social critique of video games in favour of keeping the status quo, the argument being of the "there's nothing wrong if the majority of characters are straight, white and male -- keep your SJW claws off our video games" type. I've also seen #GamerGate used as a movement to highlight that females are the only minority being discussed, and that videogames and videogame writing should be raising issues related to other minorities also but they don't because the media doesn't really care and they only mention it for females because sex sells.

I find it odd that the same #hashtag can accomodate such seemingly mutually exclusive outcries.
 
The solution to this problem seems clear to me.

Pro "SJW"
- Journalists can talk about sexism and racism and other social problems in games.
- Journalists have the right to disable comments or regulate comments.

Pro "Gamergate"
- Journalists can no longer talk down to and enforce they're views of equality onto their audience.
- Journalists can no longer have headlines that can be seen as "click-bait."

There. If you WANT to talk about sexism...do it in a way that doesn't demean the audience or judge those who may have opposing views. No more calls for censorship or boycotts in the name of justice. If you think the article will cause harassment, put a RED box with black text at the bottom with a warning in it. This is psychologically proven to make people stop harassing as strongly.

If we want to talk about sexism, we have to do it in a more open way. People get extremely upset about topics relating to sexism, racism, religion and politics...so treat these discussions with more respect. That is all we can do to make it easier to get through.

Our entire experience as human beings is subjective. Potentially right down to how we individually perceive colors.

Yes. Everything we do is tied to our perceptions. Literally everything. Sight, smell, touch, taste, beauty, happiness, trust. That's all subjective. The majority opinion = objective view is a very very very stupid and ignorant view to have. If you live in an apartment with your dirty underwear and socks everywhere, you will become blind to that smell if you never leave that room. When other people walk in...they will smell it even though you deny the smell exists. If the person is polite, they won't bring up the smell, but others will be vocally appalled by it. They don't have the same perspective as you...so they see and smell different things. As humans, we need to move away from the smelly room every now and then in order to become more aware of the things we are blind to. No two people see the world the same way.
 
Has the Escapist's Alexander Macris always been this, um, colorful?
g0jAzHe.png

Cultural Marxism? Really? This is some extreme right wing conspiracy nonsense. I remember arguing with a ton of tea partiers about this back when the movement first started and they would trot with argument out to prove the media has some sort of agenda against conservatism. I think this guy should probably be ignored if he's not going to bring anything but conspiracy theories to the table.
 
I'm sorry if I missed this, but do we know anything about who The Fine Young Capitalists actually are? Am I just missing a link on their website? The only voice I've heard from there has been male, but I don't think I've heard a name. I've been doing some cursory Google searches, but I can't actually find any information about the people behind it. There are some bios on the page from a company in Colombia, but they're the partners in this project, not the main drivers of it.

I'm really just curious about the identity of the people behind TFYC, and if they really are as genuine in their goals as they claim to be, why they seem to make information about themselves hard to find.
 
This piece from last year has been making the rounds on twitter in some of the Escapist discussion. I know it's been posted on GAF before, but it's worth a read if you haven't already seen it.
Here’s what I’ll admit: many boys have a really hard time with subjectivity. To grapple with your own subjectivity is to grapple with the subjectivities of others. It’s to see the world not as legible, stable, conquerable but as resistant, shifting, and fundamentally unknowable. It diminishes your certainty and authority. It leaves you vulnerable. This is a human problem, being a person among persons, but one that many boys have trouble admitting even the basic tenets of. And so they call for an objectivity that has no foundation except received opinion, that seeks to diminish individual experience, and that turns out to not even exist.

Objectivity is very convenient for the straight white middle class male gamer. Videogame culture encourages him to see his own subjectivity as the standard, as objective. He’ll invoke science, economics, statistics, and all manner of folk wisdom to defend his little kingdom. He’ll decry any challenge as ‘politics’ or ‘bad business’ or ‘whining’ or ‘here we go again’. He never considers how often objectivity is a cover for a dominant subjectivity, for a subjectivity that stays in power by not being recognized as such. He fears what will happen if the established order breaks down and the Vox take control.

This cult of objectivity has it exactly backwards. They want it to be one way. But it’s the other way. A good review is openly, flagrantly, unabashedly subjective. It goes all in with the reviewer’s biases. It claims them for what they really are – not tastes, not mere opinions, but values. It is a full-throated expression of one person’s experience of a game. This is the authority it claims – the player’s. And how could it be any other way? How can a reviewer get outside him or herself?

Some might admit that objectivity doesn’t exist but that it’s still an ideal to shoot for. It is, after all, a worthy goal to try and get outside yourself and see things from other perspectives. But chasing objectivity to achieve this is, again, entirely upside-down. You do not connect to the world outside, to the world of others, by suppressing or negating yourself. You do so by fully being yourself and recognizing just who that person is. A good reviewer knows that none of our values are settled, that the game community is actually in thrilling flux, despite the placid surface of its reviews. The only way to change how we talk about games is to encourage a plurality of voices, revel in their diversity, and be honest about our own subjectivity among them.

T- Journalists can no longer talk down to and enforce they're views of equality onto their audience.
- Journalists can no longer have headlines that can be seen as "click-bait."

OK in principle, but the difference between criticism involving race, gender, sexuality, etc and "talking down to their audience" or "enforcing views of equality" is very, very subjective. "Clickbait" WRT Controversial Issues is also very subjective. Obvious Buzzfeed/Upworthy stuff ("You Won't Believe What Happens Next!"), too often it's used to dismiss a stance someone disagrees with.
 
So The Fine Young Capitalists have been funded. Hopefully they take this opportunity to do real good and they stop participating in the hate campaign.
 
So, is there an end in sight to this... whatever it is?
I know the Internet loves a good flame war, but this one's getting a bit stale, safe to say it overstayed its welcome...
 
This piece from last year has been making the rounds on twitter in some of the Escapist discussion. I know it's been posted on GAF before, but it's worth a read if you haven't already seen it.



OK in principle, but the difference between criticism involving race, gender, sexuality, etc and "talking down to their audience" or "enforcing views of equality" is very, very subjective. "Clickbait" WRT Controversial Issues is also very subjective. Obvious Buzzfeed/Upworthy stuff ("You Won't Believe What Happens Next!"), too often it's used to dismiss a stance someone disagrees with.

Okay yeah. We're talking to people who are extremely entitled and view their views as fact and as the default. Everything else is politics or off-topic. I think we all understand that. Now we need to go on their level and explain to them why that isn't the case...in a way that they will understand.

There is a better way at explaining to them why that is wrong. Objectivity does not equal the majority opinion. There's a way of telling people that they believe and enjoy sexist things without telling them they are "wrong."

There have been articles that are more about right and wrong, instead of articles giving the discussion of sexism more nuance. And...I think that is a fault that people run into far too much. People are sexist. Yes. Is that wrong? No, not right now. It comes from ignorance and a lack of awareness and not much else.

Talking down to people for that isn't going to change anything. It's like yelling at someone for not knowing something that no one told them about. :\
 
There. If you WANT to talk about sexism...do it in a way that doesn't demean the audience or judge those who may have opposing views. No more calls for censorship or boycotts in the name of justice. If you think the article will cause harassment, put a RED box with black text at the bottom with a warning in it. This is psychologically proven to make people stop harassing as strongly.

If we want to talk about sexism, we have to do it in a more open way. People get extremely upset about topics relating to sexism, racism, religion and politics...so treat these discussions with more respect. That is all we can do to make it easier to get through.

La times oped
In many cases, we've been fooled into presuming that modernity serves only to broaden our horizons because people with different perspectives are now only a few mouse clicks away. But that assumption conflates the ability to connect with the same predilection. Even beyond the careful algorithms Google and Facebook use to circumscribe what we see online, technology lets us make contact with one another without registering our full identities.

Two generations ago, a member of the ultra-conservative John Birch Society looking to hock a vintage baseball card would likely have had to come face to face with a buyer — even if she'd pinned a picture of President Kennedy on her lapel. Today, by contrast, a tea partier can sell memorabilia to a Latino immigrant on EBay, and neither is any the wiser for it. The spirit of American commerce once compelled us to know one another in depth. Today, by contrast, we frequently engage entirely on the surface.

We can't discount the blessings of the new norm. Most of us find comfort living inside pockets of like-minded acquaintances. And keeping antagonistic communities separated can tamp down the tension between them.

But if the magic of the American experience was born in the cultural melange of our broader diversity, something has been lost along the way. Indeed, our lack of interaction and the mutual understanding it builds is likely contributing to the vitriol that has hamstrung Congress. Members who represent constituencies with little to no shared experience are more likely to refrain from any meaningful collaboration.

To combat this trend, some might argue that we should promote ever greater diversity. But the magic of the melting pot wasn't simply the fact of its jumble; it was that various groups were compelled to interact, share ideas, discuss their differences and learn from their disagreements.

It seems like the what is going on in the world(at least the US) outside, is also creeping into the gaming world. Which is only natural.
As silly as it may sound, maybe a good faith discussion between devs and gamers on both side of the fence, face to face might shed some light... maybe.
 
So The Fine Young Capitalists have been funded. Hopefully they take this opportunity to do real good and they stop participating in the hate campaign.

I think they are doing a good thing despite being part of something hateful and a waste of time. More women in game development is always a good thing.
 
Ha ha, is it that "hive mind" ban image?

The one from the guy who's been banned 16 times across four accounts and seven years for rampant misogyny and transphobia, and his final account got permed in April 2013 for whining that GAF is "a hivemind" because he can't post bigoted shit without getting banned? And is still holding his grudge a year and a half later?
 
Ha ha, is it that "hive mind" ban image?

The one from the guy who's been banned 16 times across four accounts and seven years for rampant misogyny and transphobia, and his final account got permed in April 2013 for whining that GAF is "a hivemind" because he can't post bigoted shit without getting banned? And is still holding his grudge a year and a half later?

So that's what that's about I remember him LOL
 
Ha ha, is it that "hive mind" ban image?

The one from the guy who's been banned 16 times across four accounts and seven years for rampant misogyny and transphobia, and his final account got permed in April 2013 for whining that GAF is "a hivemind" because he can't post bigoted shit without getting banned? And is still holding his grudge a year and a half later?

Hahahaha, glad that you guys are getting rid of these awful people in order to make this site a better place for us gamers to talk about the real issues in gaming.
 
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