#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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it's extremely strange to me. no one should ever say that sort of thing but remember when the 4channers that initially harassed Zoe at the start of this pretty much relished in the idea of driving her to suicide?
strange.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Well, dehumanizing the enemy is a pretty standard tactic, and once you've effectively turned your foe into something less than human, then there aren't too many paths left to take after that.
Lalalandia
Member
Yes, yes you did. Goddammit why do I keep falling for this shit.
Please don't stop assuming. Otherwise you would run out of venom to throw around.
Anyway... yes, we treat rape threats as trash.
Yes, we treat rape apologizer as trash.
Yes, we treat attacks on women for being women as women as trash.
Yes, we treat hate like the one from Milo like trash.
Not really sorry for that.
If you have a valid point, we will treat it nicely.
And this is the most truth, but it's also the scenario we're never going to get because the people who really feel the strongest about this, pro or against, don't want to get put on blast in a public forum. The internet is one thing, getting told you're wrong and here's why to your face is another.
Indeed. Intel's actions are pretty gross, them only doing so because they know the fallout behind it will be relatively quiet and short lived.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Disagreeing with their actions means that by extension we want them to die?! I'm sorry bit this does not make sense at all. I don't even get how you could come to that conclusion...
EDIT: I guess I shouldn't try to argue, this clearly will go nowhere. I don't know if I'm getting trolled. I really hope so, because this is a pretty disturbing interpretation...
More_Badass
Member
What the hell man? Really? You talk about how we make baseless generalizations about these fearful kids and then you say how we wouldn't mind if people died. You talk about wanting to discuss things rationally and yet you insult people by stating such a hateful assumption.
I thought we could have a reasonable discussion, but if that's your perspective, I'm sorry.
Lalalandia
Member
Easy it's the conclusion that lets you say 'These people are inhuman monsters no wonder they didn't agree with me'.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Who's dehumanizing them? You're reading some really weird stuff into these discussions. They're fully human. They're just giant assholes
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Now that I think about it, baselessly saying your opponents want people to die is a good way to dehumanize them...
Neoriceisgood
Member
Ding ding ding.
Dont think people have been dehumanized but there are people on both sides of this issue that have in anger or just to be trolls have written some very strange things.
Are there sensible people on both sides of this issue of course there is, but there are also assholes on both sides of this issue.
I just wish we could discuss this calmly without harrassing anyone but even this thread has turned into a pissing contest on who is more right than the other.
And we are only making matters worse really because this shit has really lasted longer than anyone thought it would, and all of us are keeping this alive.
I can't even discuss gaming with someone without gamergate being mentioned and I recently was called woman hater because I said liked gta iv and was promptly told how I should react to this "horrible" game is this really the community we want to have ?
i don't really want to be skeptical when i hear people tell me about their experiences but could you provide a link to this or was it offline?
i've heard stuff like this a million times since this whole thing has started and every time it's been someone saying "this game has sexist content" and someone responding "HOW DARE YOU CALL ME SEXIST"
More_Badass
Member
Huh, guess I've pretty insulated from all that. Hadn't even heard of Gamergate till recently. Where are you discussing games that those kinds of comments came up?
The only time I've ever seen the term 'the enemy' used in the GamerGate discussion on this board has been in the language supporters of it use to outline their childish Operations. Your post are a shining example of why people aren't taking it seriously, whatever point your trying to make is buried so deep in rhetoric that no one can see it and wonders if it's really there to begin with or if it's just a cover to spew more hyperbole.
Simply Sarah
Member
You know, while I'm certainly not of the same mindset as Blue Jihad, I do think that calling actually people "trash" (Even "human trash") is misguided at best. It's a dehumanizing tactic and given the stated positions of most people in this thread that's rather counter to their beliefs. This is a trap we all fall into, myself included, so we need to be mindful of that fact.
Prax
Member
You got your priorities mixed up and are reading into things and making up really bad interpretations.
Most of us understand fine. People hate change and they hate the status quo being undermined because they had a cushy position in it or enjoyed it.
And now they are throwing tantrums or are made up with many people who have sadistic or narcissistic and aggressive personalities--aka trolls--and along with them, a gaggle of sycophants or well-meaning-but-gullible people.
It is not actually very nuanced at all. I am pretty sure from the very beginning through skimming one or two things about gamergate and notyourshield, I already knew all I needed to know.
I also get that maybe confrontational stuff makes you uncomfortable. A lot of people are like that, but a lot of people also need to have a place to discuss but also use snark or whatever to cope with absurdity. So maybe you should stop reading the thread and save your heart some ache because this is not your conversational comfort zone.
And maybe never venture into pop-gaf. lol
What do you want? And please no common places, say precisely what your issue is.
This sounds like an exaggeration or misinterpretation on your part. If it's not, then I can assure you that liking GTA IV does not make you a woman hater. However, it's also impossible to ignore the misogynistic elements of GTA. These are some of the things which should be critiqued and discussed in order to move the video game medium forward.
This has really been a central theme of this situation: Trying to have a rational discussion about misogyny in video games results in a strong backlash from people thinking they're being accused of women hating or that someone is trying to take their video games away. Neither of these are the case.
A discussion of the problematic themes in video games isn't a condemnation of the medium. It's an opportunity for some introspection and progress.
tonysidaway
Member
I cannot get behind that. They have nothing to fear. They are harming people for no good reason, and you're instead focusing on the absolutely groundless fears of these bullies.
Lalalandia
Member
This thread has been an oasis of calm, the back and forth has largely been born of frustration with drive by posters or posters who refuse to engage with people who engage with them. The Blue Jihad had a lot of respectful replies that disagreed with him and tried to discuss it but he kept coming back to allegations of group think so most folks just wrote him off.
Unfortunately it's not those who aren't in GG keeping GG going it's the GGers themselves (with a big helping hand from Intel lately). You will see countless instances in this thread of folks civilly discussing the issues around GG and agreeing to disagree.
To your points in reverse order:
That person sounds silly, no that's not what anyone wants for a community. We want to be able to find things problematic in things we enjoy without being told we're destroying or invading something.
We are not keeping it alive. Ignoring it would not kill it. This is not a good response to damaging attitudes and actions and it never has been.
There is no pissing contest. The pissing contest took place in the synapses of people with enough awareness to keep this whole thing in perspective, and you know who won? You know who is 'more right'? The people who aren't taking place in an inherently bigoted and ignorant movement out of misplaced fear and privilege.
And to your opening point, considering this as two 'sides' has always been ridiculous. People treating these two sides they invent as somehow equivalent or comparable has also always been ridiculous. There are people identifying with and acting under a banner forged in bigotry and ignorance and hatred, and those who are not.
And people have been dehumanised. It's a hard fallback tactic to avoid. People here and elsewhere have done a pretty good job. You know who haven't? Gamergate echo chambers wherever they are found. People are sorted into "SJW" or "Shill" or any of the other labels, and assigned to their positions in grand conspiracies, robbing them of agency, and legitimate opinions, or of any contributions they might have.
securitypigeon
Banned
The yokels who seriously defend something like #killallmen have said some equally as disgusting things in the wake of all this.
tonysidaway
Member
Nobody should die. Perhaps you've reached the point at which you automatically project the hateful "fuck off and die" rhetoric of the mob onto their victims and those of us who, sharing your empathetic impulse, direct it mostly to those victims. We can recognise the bully's humanity and care about their welfare, while simultaneously calling for them to take ownership of their harmful actions.
Neoriceisgood
Member
It'd be nice to have some specific examples. :/
Throwing venom? You are kidding me. So pointing out the horrifying actions of these people is throwing venom? And where have we dehumanized these people so we would want them to die? I can't speak for everyone else here, but all I want is for them to stay the hell away from metaphorically stomping on other people's faces. And that means there has got to be social consequences for those people.
To be fair, I can understand how "how dare you call me sexist" and "how dare you like a game with sexist content" can be misconstrued. Sarkessian has had to put in giant bold flashing neon letters that you can like something that has sexist content and not be a sexist, but it's one of those things that can trigger people into making kneejerk statements really quickly.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Nice to know you guys aren't complete monsters.
Unintentional similarity.
Valerie Solanas comes up in conversation pretty often, but...you know...she's been dead for 20 years so...::Shrugs::
Seriously though, Helena Horton. Both sides of this argument have their monsters.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I've often seen #killallmen used ironically or as a joke (and have my own opinions on that, not something I'll go into in this thread though); but I've not seen it used seriously, especially not in regards to #GG.
I'd be curious to see it if it's such a big issue amongst anti-GG vocals.
Why even assume this?
I'd be curious to see it if it's such a big issue amongst anti-GG vocals.
Why even assume this?
It's not. It never will be. It's just one woman's Jon-Tron moment. He was just joking too, but it didn't make it okay.
I've never actually seen anyone use this tag unironically so I'd actually be morbidly curious for some examples.
The fact remains that it has little to do with anything we've been talking about.
Assholes will live and commune anywhere and everywhere. That's one point Gamergate does have right.
But there's a huge difference between some jerk existing and being cruel over in some nebulous area.
And belonging to a movement inexorably tied, due to its origins and continued overall motivations and actions, to such cruelty and hatred.
And that's leaving aside the fact that, I dunno, reverse sexism, or misandry, or whatever. It just doesn't matter as much. It does far less harm, is an absurdly less common sentiment, and basically tends to be a tiny drop or two in the great societal river flowing in the opposite direction.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Cynicism. History of emotional torture. Both.
Sorry if this has been covered already:
People really need to understand that putting your head in the sand does not make problems go away. This thread is full of screenshots showing harassment being planned on Twitter. Even if we stop discussing it here, other people are perfectly happy to discuss it over there, and they're not necessarily as friendly as we are.
Since killing discussion completely isn't an option, the only thing we can do is try to spread better information; make it clear where the harm is coming from and how petty the motivations are.
As for The Blue Jihad. What I find bizarre is that he was arguing that this thread was just turning into heckling instead of real discussion. Then he went on to say that we shouldn't be discussing it and that we're just making things worse. Then he went on to say that he wants us to understand that the issue is bigger than we think, which we're apparently supposed to figure out by not talking about it, presuming his previous statement holds.
I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt wherever possible, but this is just ridiculous.
People really need to understand that putting your head in the sand does not make problems go away. This thread is full of screenshots showing harassment being planned on Twitter. Even if we stop discussing it here, other people are perfectly happy to discuss it over there, and they're not necessarily as friendly as we are.
Since killing discussion completely isn't an option, the only thing we can do is try to spread better information; make it clear where the harm is coming from and how petty the motivations are.
As for The Blue Jihad. What I find bizarre is that he was arguing that this thread was just turning into heckling instead of real discussion. Then he went on to say that we shouldn't be discussing it and that we're just making things worse. Then he went on to say that he wants us to understand that the issue is bigger than we think, which we're apparently supposed to figure out by not talking about it, presuming his previous statement holds.
I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt wherever possible, but this is just ridiculous.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Look I understand if you've had some bad stuff happen to you, and that sucks big time; but it comes across as extremely weird and inflammatory to just walk into a discussion proclaiming everyone's probably a monster that doesn't care if the people they disagree with die.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I just watched the Jimquisition video about the Shadow of Mordor contract with youtubers / streamers, and THIS is a shady thing in gaming coverage if I ever saw one. I heard a bit about it, but I never thought it was that bad.
Did the gamergaters discuss this? In my opinion, this represents exactly what they (pretend?) are fighting against.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vid...-of-Morodrs-Promotion-Deals-with-Plaid-Social
Did the gamergaters discuss this? In my opinion, this represents exactly what they (pretend?) are fighting against.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vid...-of-Morodrs-Promotion-Deals-with-Plaid-Social
Neoriceisgood
Member
A tip -> use twitter search and type in "#gamergate mordor" and find out for yourself; it's easy enough to trace down.
tonysidaway
Member
I tried to play GTAV because everybody is praising it. I found it really tedious. In my experience there seemed to be no legitimate way to play the game except by acting like a shithole. It was one of the most profoundly depressing game experiences of my life, so I stopped and put in the Portal 2 disc to see what that was all about. That worked out very well, as you may guess.
I can see your critic's point of view. I can't see yours, really, because I just don't find violent mistreatment of innocent people entertaining. No, not even in a game where my victims are simulations. Frankly it's very disturbing. Without participating in that, GTA V seems to me a fairly boring driving game with the annoying quirk that access to cars is only (or mostly) available via criminal in-game behaviour.
This is a purely personal view of course, but I'm not at all convinced that it's unreasonable to see enjoyment of GTA V as profoundly problematic.
There are apparently aspects of GTA V that focus on sexualised murder of women for entertainment. That sounds like sick and nasty stuff if it's true.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
What the fuck? They aren't angry about the exclusivity contract, but they're panicking because a Polygon article said that kissing your wife was a bad tutorial to teach you silent execution...
Is this real life?
EDIT: Okay, I scrolled down a bit more and saw some people disagreeing with the contracts.
partyphone
Banned
the killallmen hashtag is nothing but jokes and people going "look at how evil feminists are!"
and I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find a genuine man-hating feminist. but so what?
and I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find a genuine man-hating feminist. but so what?
It almost seems like their motivations aren't what they claim to be.
Part of the issue is that people tend to operate on headlines and hearsay.
You mean you tortured others emotionally?
1 % of feminists are representative for whole feminism.
1% of Gamergaters are not representative of Gamergate. Or something like that.
More_Badass
Member
So instead of focusing on the shady publisher/review copy deal, the recent pervading stance is..."#NeverKissAGamer"?
Neoriceisgood
Member
#Neverkissagamer is a troll hashtag some girl made just to see if it'd take off, her entire timeline right after creation was just her laughing at #GGers taking it seriously.
I'm extremely amused to hear that days later it's still going.
I'm extremely amused to hear that days later it's still going.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I think these people have a huge problem understanding how criticism works. Which is pretty astonishing, as they mostly come from /v/ where pretty much every single game is considered to be shit.
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