#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
- Thread starter besada
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and the fact that it's an amorphous blob makes it impossible to ever make a statement about it
gamergate continues to demand responses to any one of a billion claims but as soon as someone addresses something there's a horde shouting "THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT"
if they really think this is doing anything other than convincing developers that a large part of their audience is made up of complete wackos then they're even more delusional than i thought
faceless007
Member
I find this thread useful to find out what significant developments are happening in the campaign without having to subject myself to it directly on Twitter.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I don't want to derail this thread, but I feel your definition of feminism comes more from hearsay and assumptions than real knowledge of what feminism is about. Feminism isn't monolithic; the fact that you saw "radical" (to quote you) individuals on the internet doesn't make the whole movement "radical". A lot of the things you said are not true ("feminism implies a female perspective", "feminists don't want to attack the root causes of inequality", etc.). I don't blame you as I guess you formed your opinion from heated internet exchanges and there are bad apples everywhere, but I think you should read more from trusted sources on the subject before completely discrediting the movement based on an inaccurate perception.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
Yup. Reminds me of the Occupy movement. Devoid of a clear message on what exactly they want and completely leaderless. Just kind of screaming into the abyss. Completely disorganized mess.
andromeduck
Member
I didn't say solved, I said well enough.
Lalalandia
Member
And who gets to draw that line? (hint if you have a Y chromosone it's not you)
We have different opinions about "well enough" I guess.
As a girl, currently in Canada, I disagree that my status as compared to boys is "well enough" so as to say that feminism can be considered overly radical for continuing to push for equality.
Incidentally, there's a new article on Slate about how Twitter is exacerbating the situation.
I'd like to think that nobody really thinks that Alexander is a racist or that the Gaters are really worse than ISIS.
Lalalandia
Member
Honestly I always saw this thread as like a sacrificial anode to stop the rot of GG corroding every other thread that touches on journalism and gaming. We have been in a loop of 'drive by poster, response, silence, crazy GG nonsense quoted from elsewhere, drive by poster' for a while. If this is closed I'd like to see a new thread even just so that in other threads folks can say 'take it to the GG thread'
Well, I think the general consensus is we still need a thread, and this one still has 10,000 posts left in it before we have to close it, so we'll just leave it up.
If someone would prefer to make a more recent thread, with all the details, let me know via PM and we can transition, otherwise we'll just leave this one running.
If someone would prefer to make a more recent thread, with all the details, let me know via PM and we can transition, otherwise we'll just leave this one running.
RockTurtle
Member
haven't some posts confirmed that to be the case?
that you can believe the worst of your opposition?
andromeduck
Member
I never said it made the whole movement radical. I said the radicals and the lack of response from the moderates makes me less willing to identify as such.
If it's no longer from a female perspective then it should not be called feminism
It's a bit like calling human rights men's rights
An It's not that they don't wan't to attack the root causes of inequality - I just feel that for a movement so large and, strangely enough, established - they are so bad with basic scientific and academic rigor. It's not enough to just have a theory - you need to test it and have it reviewed and verified. This very rarely happens in academic and public feminism from what I've seen.
as I said, this is the definition I use online (primarily) because this is my experience online
I've also sat through a few courses/lectures by the Institute for Gender, Race, Sexuality and Social Justice and remain unconvinced.
andromeduck
Member
Right and if you have 2 X's you can't say anything about the experience of men?! Ridiculous.
Where the fuck did I say that?
How the fuck did "there exists room re visit some of these issues from the male side for a complete picture" translate into we should just stop?!
Christ...
Lalalandia
Member
haven't some posts confirmed that to be the case?
that you can believe the worst of your opposition?
Well you can but if you're daft enough to think any organisation short of a murderous terrorist organisation is 'as bad as ISIS' then you're indulging in stratospheric levels of hyperbole at best. Hell even Al Qaeda has said ISIS are crazy (back when ISIS were styling themselves as 'AQ in Iraq').
If you have the posts here backing that up I'd love to seem them as I can't recall anyone here seriously endorsing that idea.
I think being a racist is one thing you cannot accuse Leigh of, she has written before about the racist abuse she and her sister faced in high school.
Lalalandia
Member
Well your statement was in effect 'I think the issue is over so why are people talking about it' so I was as glib in response. If a group feels marginalised or oppressed the only people that can say whether that marginalisation or oppression has ended are that group themselves. By any measure you want to go by women are not yet on equal footing with men, be it in terms of relative wages, representation in politics, board positions in major companies or pretty much any other sphere you care to mention.
Look I can't count how many times I've been told that 'The English love the Irish mate it's the <insert racial epitaph here> that are the problem' yet I will still encounter anti-Irish prejudice (less frequently than during the Troubles but it's there all right). I don't accept the premise that anti-Irish prejudice is gone in English society so I'm certainly not going to tell anyone that the discrimination they face is over just because I don't see it or encounter it on a regular basis.
andromeduck
Member
Right because it has to be a binary situation. Couldn't possibly also be the case that some men are also disadvantaged in elements of their lives due to society.
I have to say I am really thrown off by the rage here. I saw most of your perspective as reasonable enough but wanted to share something with you. It is why I quoted just the one statement and addressed just that. But you just got mad at me. I suppose I'm not the best writer and I came off wrong? I apologize.
I'm talking about you saying you can't identify with feminism because you see the current form as too radical and perhaps not coming from a female perspective anymore.
You say that feminism requires a female perspective, which I have provided for you. It counters your assertion that girls in Canada are "well off enough".
I am not saying you said "we should just stop". I am just challenging your statement that you no longer want to identify with "so-called feminists", to imply that feminism as discussed by those involved in and around GamerGate has gone too far.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
What does that have to do with feminism?
Feminism is about systemic discrimination of women. It does not negate anecdotal discrimination against men that might happen...
Simply Sarah
Member
I know what you're getting at, but remember that just because someone has a Y chromosome doesn't mean they can't be a woman.
That said, I'm wondering if this current discussion of the nature of feminism might not be a bit too far from GG to really fit.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I mean, from a discussion standpoint I think this one has run its course. Its a question of what to do with the still steady stream of new people who come in, get clarification, and kind of leave
Agreed. Particularly given the constant insistence that GG is strictly about journalism.
If people want to generally discuss feminism, feel free to start a thread in OT.
EDIT: once again I post immediately after besada steers away the discussion. Sorry about that!
Andromeduck, I don't see what your post explains in terms of your claim that feminists in this debate have made a fool of themselves. Could you relate your post or elaborate on how feminists in Gamergate have done harm to feminism as such? Nevertheless, I'm going to reply to your post, despite the fact that I have a difficult time relating your points to Gamergate and your claim that feminists in Gamergate have acted bad.
Feminism is humanistic and egalitarian. I'm not saying you fall under the following umbrella, but whenever I see "I'm not a feminist, but a humanist" it is code or equivalent for "I don't see race/sex/gender/sexuality, all I see is human beings!", which unfortunately does not take into account the systematic and structural disadvantages that specific races/genders/sexualities/etc. suffer from.
I.e. being a "humanist" is blind to the differences between people and you run the risk of not paying respect to how one group suffers in a specific way that another one doesn't, e.g. being African American meeting police versus being Caucasian encountering police.
Yes, that's a measure you're proposing. They sound really interesting and I definitely agree with your ideas. I would suggest that you also look at the more general and structural causes for inequality. Getting girls into STEM fields as an example might be a good thing, but you also have to look at the norms and rules coming from media, government, institutions, educations, etc. that convey values that exclude girls.
Unfortunately this argument relies on biology as an indication of preferences. That things are in a way unequal because of biological differences. However, this is not a solid viewpoint to endorse, as one man might be what is "biologically" considered feminine (let's say lower muscle tissue), while a man
First, I think you've either misunderstanding mainstream feminism or you've met some version of it that doesn't talk about the whole picture. There's a lot of feminist endeavours that strive to fix the underlying causes/trends and not specifically fix the symptom of these causes.
Secondly, I think you're projecting in terms of artistic expression. The basic tenets of criticism is that it's okay to say and that it doesn't censor stuff. Artists can still say whatever they want. Artists can say whatever they want. Artists can say whatever they want.
But freedom of speech does not entail freedom from criticism. If you're going to use a sensitive topic for your artistic expression (like a rape joke at a standup comedy show), you are not free from being called out on it in case you fumble and treat the topic in a simplistic and irresponsible manner.
That sounds anecdotal and I would like some examples of this.
I don't think you should blame Anita or feminists for that. I think you should blame all the misogynistic and sexist gamers who have polluted such a discussion (in case your counterarguments are well-substantiated and not some ad-hominem like Thunderfoot and the rest of the 20-minute Youtube MRA gang)
Women are not equal in Canada. If you look it up, you should see that many women in Canada don't feel things are equal. Granted, I don't live there and I haven't researched much into it, but I do know of interviews and statistics that state that Canada does not have equality.
That doesn't make sense. How come you think Canadian feminists are bigoted in case they don't agree that things are equal in Canada for women and men?
How so? What is this definition that you are speaking of?
But to reiterate, all in all, andromeduck, I don't see what your post explains in terms of your claim that feminists in this debate have made a fool of themselves. Could you relate your post or elaborate on how feminists in Gamergate have done harm to feminism as such?
Andromeduck, I don't see what your post explains in terms of your claim that feminists in this debate have made a fool of themselves. Could you relate your post or elaborate on how feminists in Gamergate have done harm to feminism as such? Nevertheless, I'm going to reply to your post, despite the fact that I have a difficult time relating your points to Gamergate and your claim that feminists in Gamergate have acted bad.
Feminism is humanistic and egalitarian. I'm not saying you fall under the following umbrella, but whenever I see "I'm not a feminist, but a humanist" it is code or equivalent for "I don't see race/sex/gender/sexuality, all I see is human beings!", which unfortunately does not take into account the systematic and structural disadvantages that specific races/genders/sexualities/etc. suffer from.
I.e. being a "humanist" is blind to the differences between people and you run the risk of not paying respect to how one group suffers in a specific way that another one doesn't, e.g. being African American meeting police versus being Caucasian encountering police.
Yes, that's a measure you're proposing. They sound really interesting and I definitely agree with your ideas. I would suggest that you also look at the more general and structural causes for inequality. Getting girls into STEM fields as an example might be a good thing, but you also have to look at the norms and rules coming from media, government, institutions, educations, etc. that convey values that exclude girls.
Unfortunately this argument relies on biology as an indication of preferences. That things are in a way unequal because of biological differences. However, this is not a solid viewpoint to endorse, as one man might be what is "biologically" considered feminine (let's say lower muscle tissue), while a man
First, I think you've either misunderstanding mainstream feminism or you've met some version of it that doesn't talk about the whole picture. There's a lot of feminist endeavours that strive to fix the underlying causes/trends and not specifically fix the symptom of these causes.
Secondly, I think you're projecting in terms of artistic expression. The basic tenets of criticism is that it's okay to say and that it doesn't censor stuff. Artists can still say whatever they want. Artists can say whatever they want. Artists can say whatever they want.
But freedom of speech does not entail freedom from criticism. If you're going to use a sensitive topic for your artistic expression (like a rape joke at a standup comedy show), you are not free from being called out on it in case you fumble and treat the topic in a simplistic and irresponsible manner.
That sounds anecdotal and I would like some examples of this.
I don't think you should blame Anita or feminists for that. I think you should blame all the misogynistic and sexist gamers who have polluted such a discussion (in case your counterarguments are well-substantiated and not some ad-hominem like Thunderfoot and the rest of the 20-minute Youtube MRA gang)
Women are not equal in Canada. If you look it up, you should see that many women in Canada don't feel things are equal. Granted, I don't live there and I haven't researched much into it, but I do know of interviews and statistics that state that Canada does not have equality.
That doesn't make sense. How come you think Canadian feminists are bigoted in case they don't agree that things are equal in Canada for women and men?
How so? What is this definition that you are speaking of?
But to reiterate, all in all, andromeduck, I don't see what your post explains in terms of your claim that feminists in this debate have made a fool of themselves. Could you relate your post or elaborate on how feminists in Gamergate have done harm to feminism as such?
andromeduck
Member
Sorry, I guess I'm just too used to having my word twisted beyond recognition WRT this topic.
I don't think feminism requires a female perspective so much as I believe it implies it through it's etymology and also it's historical roots. I think that we've reached a point of diminishing returns for female POV dominant discourse and to go further and actually reach the goal of equality we need the male perspective just as much as any other. In that context I believe that the label of feminism is poor framing as it would imply that men's rights/experiences/problems derive from women's.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Of course feminism was started by women, and it's called "feminism" because it's about female being treated as equals... What's wrong with that?
Why do you think that?
There are a lot of male feminists, some of them prominent figures. There are of course less males than females because males are less personally concerned by the subject for obvious reasons.
I'm not following you here.
What happens when someone tries to bring up the allegations that Ubisoft's actions with Assassin's Creed Unity is a direct example of the ethical problems GamerGate claims to be against?
Note: I don't actually believe the conspiracy theory that Ubisoft is intentionally going for parity because Microsoft game them money, but whether or not that's true is irrelevant to the conversation that ensues:
https://storify.com/BradGrenz/gamergate-versus-real-anti-consumer-actions
Note: I don't actually believe the conspiracy theory that Ubisoft is intentionally going for parity because Microsoft game them money, but whether or not that's true is irrelevant to the conversation that ensues:
https://storify.com/BradGrenz/gamergate-versus-real-anti-consumer-actions
The Blackrose
Member
Twitter has always been a terrible vector for conversation where nuance and understanding/explanation of concepts are required. Instead we get soundbytes and a diminishing return on conversation due to the allotted space per tweet, where multiple tweets in sequence can be ignored because someone wants to focus on something said in tweet 2 out of X. That's also not counting that other people have issues with tweets 3, 4 and 5.
One thing I'm surprised the article left out though is how it has the potential to foster echo chambers just as well as it has the issue of the Terrible Sea Lion.
Simply Sarah
Member
Yes, this is a big part of the reason why I tend to prefer either a forum setting (Longer form posts + generally anyone can find and add stuff) or something like IRC (Still tends to suffer from echo chamber issues, but back and forth tends to be easier). These issues with Twitter may only get worse assuming they push forward in Facebookizing timelines.
axisofweevils
Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
Seems to be a new, positive hashtag movement on twitter. #ineeddiversegames
Neoriceisgood
Member
Dying.
I think like many things, we often confuse something that reflects society as something that drives society. The entire "echo chamber" society was well in work even in the early 2000s; Twitter just gave everyone the ability to rationalize their own echo chambers.
Glad to see at least someone calling out everyone on all the shenanigans that have been going on from the beginning of this. I kinda think this thread is done, as it has now just primarily turned into an echo chamber of people wanting to project their own experiences and viewpoints onto everything. We're at the point where we are assuming the worst from anyone writing against our pre-existing viewpoint, and we assume the best for anyone that agrees with us.
andromeduck
Member
I don't think it's any particular thing so much as the climate in general. The willingness to paint an entire group/side as being misogynist or hateful then turning a blind eye to the same on our/their own side.
This didn't happen overnight but rather gradually over the last 2-3 years of my personal experiences both on and offline.
The way I see it humanism/egalitarianism encompasses covers feminism but is more clear on perspective in that it rules out many of the more radical forms. Not sure that sentence actually made sense but I hope you got the idea.
And yes I believe there is a place for differing perspectives and those differing perspectives together compose the whole - that's why I think other perspectives are equally valid.
Yes! I'm all for that kind of thing.
I didn't mean for it to be biological. I meant data as in current norms - it's a pragmatic view in that I think we need to work with what we have and progressive work towards betterment rather than all or nothings. Kind of like agile really.
I agree. I guess what I have a problem with within the context of gamergate my biggest issue is with journalistic collusion. I think it's fine if everyone has similar ideas but for so many major sites to publish practically the same article at the same time or have one agenda kind of defeats the point of having more than one. Mono-culture is unhealthy.
My problem with free speech and feminism comes from other events. I don't think feminism is fundamentally opposed so much as I feel it's a fad within it.
If only I documented my every conversation D:
Why shouldn't I blame them? They're the ones stifling discourse and labeling everyone on a whim.
Why shouldn't we hold them to a higher standard? Why shouldn't we expect them to be self critical or at least within the community?
Can't reach equilibrium with an imbalance in force. I'm saying that we're close enough to the goal it would be productive to no longer put emphasis on one side of the conversation.
well look at the reverse, are men that think that there are no problems of particular interest to women or would greatly benefit from their perspective bigoted?
well whenever I have this discussion it seems there's a group of feminists that want to claim that feminism already covers other areas of society or issues relating to men, and their problems however I believe that branding that as feminism is really stretching it
someone asked me what my position on feminism so I posted it
this thing has gone off too long for me to pick off specific examples but i think Leigh Alexander and Sarkeesian is a good start just the lack of prominent feminists calling them out on bullshit.
andromeduck
Member
no, it's about bringing women up to equals in areas where they are traditionally disadvantaged which has the very important distinction that it doesn't always bring men up in areas where women have been traditionally advantaged
What? Could you be more specific?
That's not the point which is concerning cultural narrative.
if we were to use feminism to address male problems it's kind of like women telling men what to do - like the opposite of patriarchy which isn't any better
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Feminism isn't about "male problems", I don't know where you're getting that from.
If you're implying men suffer from systemic discrimination just like women, uh... I'm not sure what to tell you, honestly.
By the way, I was asking why you'd think "we've reached a point of diminishing return".
EDIT: I think we're going way off-topic here. Sorry mods, I'll try to refrain from replying to non gg-related posts from now on.
If you're implying men suffer from systemic discrimination just like women, uh... I'm not sure what to tell you, honestly.
By the way, I was asking why you'd think "we've reached a point of diminishing return".
EDIT: I think we're going way off-topic here. Sorry mods, I'll try to refrain from replying to non gg-related posts from now on.
Dying.
hahahahaha i hope this is real
andromeduck
Member
conscription, circumcision, divorce/custody, access to counseling and/or other services, prison sentences etc.
I'm sorry if they're not as sexy.
Dying.
At least they don't have gamespot in that image since the gamergate thread on that site has not been heavily moderated,
You know a lot of those issues are related to misogyny? For instance, divorce/custody imbalances are frequently born from the idea that Woman are only good for childbirth/bearing, and therefore those things are slanted in their direction for that reason. lowering misogyny would naturally make a lot of those issues better.
Anita Sarkeesian's fantastic speech from XOXO Fest was just posted live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah8mhDW6Shs
In it, she discusses things about herself, but because they're equally applicable to most other visible women on the Internet:
And much more.
Even in response to XOXO Fest's tweets there was this golden nugget:
https://twitter.com/davegkoopa/status/519533997991677952
*sigh*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah8mhDW6Shs
In it, she discusses things about herself, but because they're equally applicable to most other visible women on the Internet:
- Conspiracy theories about her
- tactics that misogynists use to discredit her
- hoaxes that harassers use to satisfy confirmation biases about her
And much more.
Even in response to XOXO Fest's tweets there was this golden nugget:
https://twitter.com/davegkoopa/status/519533997991677952
*sigh*
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Really dude? Yeah, systemic workplace discrimination, frequent harassment and a few millennia of stereotypes sure are "sexy"
Oh good lord.
"Because it only happens overwhelmingly more often to one gender, rather than 100% exclusively, this is clearly not a gender issue whatsoever."
Fuck fuck fuck it physically hurts me.
More_Badass
Member
Would it be rude of me to post, "Are you just dense or really that apathetic to miss the whole point of here speech?"
andromeduck
Member
You can phrase it any way you like they're still examples of issues affecting men.
Those things are big enough issues, where are all the feminists?
I could also rephrase alot of traditional feminist problems as misandry but that really doesn't help anyone.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
You ask for statistical hard evidence, then you mention a bunch of anecdotes. Lol.
But yeah, just a quick google search:
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiY...eactions_to_a_womans_voice_in_an_FPS_game.php
Many of those are actually addressed by gender equality. If women were not seen as the child rearing gender, men would then be on equal footing in custody battles. If women were not seen as the submissive and weaker and more emotionally unstable gender, men would then no longer need to put up a "tough guy" facade to hide their mental issues and would not be dismissed as having less serious mental health concerns. Equality would cause society to stop attributing strength to males and garbage like "be a real man" and "suck it up" and "grow some balls" will go away.
Many of the issues men face are directly related to their status compared to women. If the genders were equal, if women were brought up to the same status as men in all areas, you will find society to be a lot kinder to men as well.
The problem is that by framing it as a men's issue thing, it looks like people want to address these issues while keeping the status quo for women -- for men to have an equal chance in divorces/custody battles while women continue to keep our role as the child rearing gender.
Feminism is beneficial for all genders.
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