They? The guy you quoted is right in this thread.
#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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They? The guy you quoted is right in this thread.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Death to gamers lol.
Interfectum
Member
Has this article been posted?
http://www.slate.com/articles/techn...10/twitter_is_broken_gamergate_proves_it.html
http://www.slate.com/articles/techn...10/twitter_is_broken_gamergate_proves_it.html
More_Badass
Member
Wow, those stats are so accurate to my own life. 22 year old male, been playing games for 15 years, I believe games by far provide the best entertainment-to-price ratio, and I tend to get games based on forum impressions, art style and narrative, or just being a fan of that particular developer
My parents still believe video games are for kids. I guess it's that generational difference. I grew up with games, it's just another entertainment medium like tv or books. They haven't, and see them more as toys
I don't think anyone would disagree that there are issues, but GamerGate has done very little to address any of it.
The movement seems focused on targeting journalists and publications that they don't agree with, rather than those who might be engaged in unethical activities. By doing things like convincing neutral parties to pull ads from sites, all GamerGate is doing is empowering game publishers. This will lead to less independence from those covering games and more influence from those who want you to buy them.
Furthermore, the movement conflates a lot things which aren't even related to ethics. To use your post as an example:
What exactly does this have to do with ethics in gaming journalism?
Interfectum
Member
I'd love to see Twitter eradicated from the internet.
More_Badass
Member
Yup
https://storify.com/BradGrenz/gamergate-versus-real-anti-consumer-actions
Pretty much sums up the Gamergate mindset
I look in here once every so often to see what's going on.
http://www.np.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/
vacalactica
Banned
I didn't read it all but got the gist, it's unfortunate that some people behind gamergate are using the movement to harass women and push a misogynist agenda. Back to my original reply, having this kind of people in this circle is unavoidable unfortunately.
English is not my first language, apologies for the semantics error.
I found absurd how several of the biggest outlets released very similar articles on the same day with the intent to "kill" the gamer label and insinuate the label is related to misogyny. That's what was most upsetting in my opinion.
That'll do. Thanks.
Very superficial treatment of the thing and it also establishes false equivalence between "sides", when one is a bigoted, self-centered misogynistic troll movement with death @ rape threats and the other is basically asking for respect and letting their voices be heard.
I wouldn't blame Twitter as much as I would blame bigots. You might argue the platform makes them more loud-mouthed though and gives easier access to harassment campaigns.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
That is literally what GG was founded to do. Literally. It wasn't about Destiny. It wasn't about Mordor. It was about Zoe Quinn, one tiny developer who made a text adventure game, it was about harassing Quinn and levering baseless accusations about her sex life as a basis to insult, harass and generally abuse her
Literally. There's no escaping it
More_Badass
Member
This is like the Reddit thing. Twitter is really infuriating at times, but it's also pretty damn awesome. It's a fantastic way to follow game development and chat with your favorite devs, or talk with friends, etc. Twitter during the Ferguson protests was engrossing
But absolutely the worst platform in history for trying to debate and discuss something. You can't really say anything of worth in 140 characters
Riposte
Member
I found the reaction in this thread to your simple (and obvious) typo a little shameful.
"'Gamers' are over" and "Death to gamers" is kind of a huge difference.
English being a secondary language is understandable (it is for me as well) but that is a pretty huge misquote with massively different meanings. And in context of GamerGate and the overreaction that caused a lot of this, it's not exactly obvious that it was a mistake.
Here's a GGer who was apparently harassed by SJW/anti-GGs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s8z5fcWQrA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s8z5fcWQrA
Neoriceisgood
Member
That's fair, it sounds sooo much more aggressive that way though. That's why I found it funny.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This is horrifying, the second half especially. Unsurprising but horrifying.
What's the ethical concern, though?
What's the issue with people expressing an opinion about issues with the gamer label? You might not agree with them, but that's the fun thing about opinions. You're free to disagree with them all you want, but to try and frame that as some sort of breach of ethics is misleading.
Dude, it's not even really about gamergate, it's about the tech industry and tech press. It's about how people (including the EFF) started supporting a notorious piece of human garbage because they couldn't deal with the cognitive dissonance that someone who had their civil rights abused by the federal government could also be utterly terrible. Oh, surprise, once out of prison the dude wrote an editorial for a neo-nazi site, and has a massive swastika tattoo. People who supported him for the most part didn't say a word.
But frankly, the tech industry (which includes the games industry, of course) is way worse than 'gaming'. Not putting more diverse characters in games is a real fucking shame, but not hiring minorities is way worse. It's always bothered me how games writers would go for the low-hanging fruit of game content, while avoiding slinging sand in the eyes of the industry giants. The big fuss people make about gaming is just more embarassing, because the stakes either way are so low.
vacalactica
Banned
It was a typo, I was actually thinking of "Death of the gamer identity" debacle.
The problem is: you can prove that some people in the movement are actual misogynists, but you can't generalise the movement as it is now. It did indeed start with the Zoe Quinn incident, but that's a movement with several facets, that's why I mentioned I'm not a 100% advocate, but I do agree with some points, which I mentioned before.
Lalalandia
Member
Note the ACLU can and does defend neo-Nazis when freedom of speech issues are at stake or at least file Amicus briefs supporting them. Weev is a toxic prick but EFF felt that the prosecution was overreach. Defending rights often means defending people you wouldn't be caught in the same postcode with let alone on the same 'side'. Fuck weev though.
I understand that and I do believe you. I'm just saying that it's not that out of line that people misunderstood and called it out. It is understandable that you made the error but it is also understandable that people reacted the way they did. In the end it was a misunderstanding and you've clarified it.
I was just addressing calling the reaction shameful. Nothing about you. I'm glad you're engaging in a fairly one sided thread. Discussion is important.
Sure, but the problem is no one's saying 'fuck weev', they're mostly kinda overlooking his flaws because he's a 'hero' now. As her the pony blog, he started denying stuff he admitted to of his own free will, and everyone believed him over known journalists and victims because, well... fuck if I know.
More_Badass
Member
Oh, look:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/08/kingdom-come-deliverances-rural-idyll/
I wonder if they were pressured into posting something by the GG crowd.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/08/kingdom-come-deliverances-rural-idyll/
I wonder if they were pressured into posting something by the GG crowd.
Lalalandia
Member
Fair enough I can only imagine how poorly I express myself in French years after secondary school. Just understand that an awful lot of folks have tried to defend GG by repeating outright lies or fabrications that were told to them so I assumed that you'd been misinformed about what the articles were about also.
There are a lot of misinformed folk with good intentions in GG but it has zero positive achievements and an awful lot of negative ones. There's no saving GG it was started by a collection of aggressive misogynists who then grafted on the 'gaming ethics' slant. Of course all of the claims in relation to ZQ have no basis in fact but we still see them quoted in here every 2-3 pages or so.
Every instance pointed to by GG as an ethical issue has been shown to either be an outright fantasy or the normal human relationships formed by reporters working a beat.
They've posted about that game a lot so no I don't think so.
More likely it's because a video trailer was posted yesterday.
The complaint before was that no one would write about an alpha patch... It's rare for anyone to write about alpha patches. But there's a video now so they'll have some media exposure.
And it's not like this is the first time RPS has written about the game. You just don't generally write about alpha patches.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I don't really care about the individuals, I judge the movement on its actions.
vacalactica
Banned
The opinion piece is fine, I don't agree but whatever. What I was upset was the fact that almost all main gaming news outlets wrote the same article on the same day, conveying the same idea.
Honestly I never heard about this neo-natzi situation until now, I don't use twitter very much and I don't participate in online activism.
About the tech industry issue, what's the source on the "not hiring minorities" claim? I work in IT (finance, not tech) and in some cases there are teams with more than 50% asians.
Writers go for the low hanging fruit because of publisher pressure to avoid risk. But game writing has evolved immensely in the past years, with games like Borderlands, Mass Effect and Last of Us featuring gay characters and still selling very well.
It's never nice to generalise like that, but I don't intend to change your notions.
Fair Cop on the typo and sorry I reacted the way I did.
Many, many people have come into this thread, and actually it's even more common outside of it, with massive misconceptions about what those articles said, and in many cases, without having read them, or read them very critically, instead relying on people with a concerted stake in the situation to tell them what they mean. I encourage you to go re-read them if you have the time, or at the very least this rather good annotated version of Leigh Alexander's
As to your post here, it's not so much the idea that there are some harmful or bigoted elements to the movements, its that every "point" that has so far bubbled to the surface of the insane collective consciousness has been based on very little evidence or critical thinking, and has largely been a smokescreen for the movement's entirely misogynistic beginnings, and not just it's beginnings, but it's prominent figures, and low-level talking points for its entire existence.
Even if we ignore the first two weeks of unequivocally disgusting behaviour that some would not consider "Gamergate" in an official sense, the tag not having been conceived yet...
It was first used by noted nutbar and anti-progressive/feminist/sanity celbrity conspiracy theorist Adam Baldwin, directly linked to a misogynistic attack video about Zoe Quinn.
It's shining example of journalistic ethics is Milo Yiannopolous, who can no longer get a job writing for anywhere but Breitbart, a "News" site Wikipedia will not accept as a source because of it's history with outright lies and hateful material, because he himself has a long track record of hateful and fabricated "journalism" up to and including actual criminal fraud, and even writing far, far worse attack articles about games mere weeks before the tag was taken up. Oh! Also, he has a long history of misogyny, racism, and especially transphobia, which are 100% tolerated by the supposedly inclusive movement.
As people have pointed out, there is literally zero evidence the "Gamers are Over" articles were coordinated in any way, and it fact, they seem more like maybe a half dozen writers who agreed with Leigh Alexander's actual point about the expanding game industry, and those reacting negatively to that (They don't say gamers are a dying identity, merely a changing and expanding, and probably outmoded one) and over the course of a couple of days, wrote a few more giving their own perspective (Many of them are far less similar than many will have you believe, beyond their somewhat uncreative titles in some cases).
Given all that, I'd still like you to hang out in the thread and talk this stuff through, because a lot of people have a lot of misconceptions about what Gamergate is, and how well supported or intentioned the "points" they've been making are.
treemasterx
Banned
You have to understand, the actions of the movement are trying to help the greater good of Video Games
Oh also this is simply not true.
2 on Gamasutra, nearly a day apart, one on Kotaku, one on Polygon, and one on Ars Technica, which I would say is more a tech site but people apparently use it for game stuff so I chucked it in.
Those are the sites, out of probably hundreds, that posted anything of the sort.
Lalalandia
Member
I hope you expand this point because the only actions thus far have been a co-ordinated harassment campaign of prominent female voices that have forced several of them out. Latterly there has also been a movement against advertisers on websites deemed dangerous for their support of diversity in games. How could any of that be seen as good for the future of anthing?
More_Badass
Member
Ha, right, okay. What a delusional mindset
They don't speak for everyone, even if they'd like to think they do
Interfectum
Member
I see more than two sides here. You have the "social justice warriors" fighting back against the constant harassment towards women and minorities. You have the gamers who are pissed that they are the targets of said group when most haven't harassed anyone. And you have the trolls who have puppet mastered this entire thing, have faced no consequences and aren't even getting blamed for it. It's "gamers" and "gamer culture" not random sociopaths on the internet. GamerGate is the perfect example of what happens when blame and hate is misdirected. You now have good people, people who love games and would never harass anyone, joining a cause born from trolling and frustration.
As the harassment towards women continues we'll see more and more hate is directed at "gamers" as if they can do anything about it. GamerGate will get even bigger and nothing will change until the true authorities are held accountable for what's going on. Twitter, Facebook, the United States justice system, etc. As long as the trolls face no real world consequences they will continue to do this no matter how many anti-gamer / gamer culture articles are written.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I have absolutely no idea if this is a joke or not. :/
How?
Game is shaping up nicely.
The Gamers actually seem more like they're pissed because they've been told by the worst of the worst that they're under attack by those who are fighting harassment, and aren't able to think critically enough to figure out that they're not.
If they feel like pointing out the games industry has a lot of systemic problems with bigotry of all kinds is an attack on them, rather than a call to action to try and make it better, well I don't know what to say to that other than "If you're not helping, step aside."
Moon_frogger
Member
Oh dear lord let's not get into the institutional 'problems' of men please. It's fucking awesome being a man. Don't even try to deny it. I say this having been a victim of paternity fraud who had to fight against a system stacked against me to not pay child support for 18 years. I still think my life is ridiculously way easier because I'm a man.
treemasterx
Banned
chaobreaker
Member
Too bad the creator joined the SJWs-ruining-video-games conspiracy bandwagon.
How does harassing journalists and feminists contribute to that cause?
I want the fox news of games journalism.
treemasterx
Banned
Might I ask how is GamerGate trying to harass woman? Do you really think that GamerGate are all woman hating white straight males. I just want to know why you hate the movement that is all, Besides "GAMERGATE is misogynist!"
Lalalandia
Member
Why did you come in here to fight a strawman then? You made the statement it's for the 'good of video games' and 'fair and balanced' reviews and previews, explain how.
Edit: Just saw your reply.
I say it's only victories are forcing women out because that's all anyone can point to, what else has it achieved?
It may not all be misogynists but the outcomes are starkly so, just looekd at twitter and again the movement is still fixated on the demonstrably false ZQ stuff and a flagrant misreading of LA articles. The most prominent voice in the GG universe seems to be Milo a guy who called gamers the 'yellow underpants crowd' but upon smelling the clicks was accepted without reservation whereas LA despite a lifetime of gaming and a nuanced article with follow ups is still persona non grata.
You say it's positive, list how
treemasterx
Banned
+1 for Fox News Joke
No. I want subjective opinions backed up by persuasive writing. I do not want "fair and balanced" reviews that just state facts about the game and assign an arbitrary score that doesn't represent what the reviewer actually thought about the game.
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