Support NeoGAF

[Neoriceisgood]

If someone is going to mob someone down, they can just make sockpuppet accounts, and will.

A company as large as Twitter can't IP block, as you'd have way too many false positives.

Start requiring real names/real ID- and that opens up another can of worms. See what Comcast just did to someone complaining about their service, they used it to call their boss, made up a story about him threatening them, and got him fired from his job.

Not sure anything can be done about it.

Oh I agree, it's not a particularly easy issue to solve. (Albeit more advanced privacy/communication options are usually a good way to give people more control over their own account.)

I just think it's a bit silly to dismiss YT/twitter/tumblr as a whole because of issues like this.

 

[Lime]

The one thing I take some dubious pleasure in is that most of all this hubris only exists if you care for Twitter. I'm a liberal democrat, but this fetishism of journalists the world over to give a podium to the lowest common denominator always baffled me. This is what you get going in high and mighty and not having an exit strategy. Obviously it doesn't completely safeguard you as Sarkeesian blocked YouTube comments but still gets harassed, but for most people no Twitter = no drama.

What about my e-mail address? What about my personal homepage where I voice my opinion? What about when I upload a Youtube video and people stalk me and call my friends and family? Mattie Brice got child porn posted all over her website some years back. Sarkeesian experienced the same last month.

Twitter is not the issue causing the "drama", it's the people using it. Without Twitter, you just won't be as exposed to how people are harassed for voicing their opinion.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Twitter and tumblr actually allow harassed people to talk back/get angry in a visible way, that's a big difference.

Harder for outsiders to pretend the harassment isn't happening.

 

[The Technomancer]

Gamergate has been singularly effective in sabotaging the public reputation of gamers, as anyone following the mainstream press coverage will be aware. I've always been wary of engaging Gamergaters except to remind them of the harm it is doing to others in gaming and what an unremittingly toxic effect it is having at all levels.

Am I crazy to suggest that, consciously or not, that's what some of them want? As we've seen a large part of this is people afraid that "their" subculture is changing or moving beyond them, and as we've also seen for many a part of that subculture is a, real or perceived, sense of bring marginalized and outcasts. Normally I wouldn't say anyone would want to preserve that, but if you're the kind of bitter, spiteful person that would make porn comics or send rape threats might you want to hang onto that marginalization to fuel your bitterness?

 

[Abelian75]

On a side note, why do I have a funny feeling a lot of the people who claim to be "progressive" or "liberal" on the various #GG twitters found reasons to ya' know, vote for Romney in 2012 or against almost every Democrat, but love Rand Paul.

I'd be careful making assumptions, sir! This is certainly not true of my friends and I (nor will it be in 2016, unless the sky falls or something). It is actually possible for people in the same political party to disagree on some topics!

 

[freddy]

I'd be careful making assumptions, sir! This is certainly not true of my friends and I (nor will it be in 2016, unless the sky falls or something). It is actually possible for people in the same political party to disagree on some topics!

This is what fascinates me about this whole thing. There's barely any middle ground. Someone I think before mentioned the horseshoe effect. What I'm saying is a lot(not all!) of people seem to have lost their reason and it's become a war fought inch by inch with no quarter given.

 

[Lime]

This is what fascinates me about this whole thing. There's barely any middle ground. Someone I think before mentioned the horseshoe effect. What I'm saying is a lot(not all!) of people seem to have lost their reason and it's become a war fought inch by inch with no quarter given.

It's difficult giving quarters to people who refuse to stop propagating harassment, rape threats, and exclusion of women.

 

[Nephrahim]

It's difficult giving quarters to people who refuse to propagate harassment, rape threats, and exclusion of women.

And what do you think we should do to stop the harassment, rape threats, and exclusion?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

And what do you think we should do to stop the harassment, rape threats, and execution?

In general or related to GG?

 

[Vlade]

Am I crazy to suggest that, consciously or not, that's what some of them want? As we've seen a large part of this is people afraid that "their" subculture is changing or moving beyond them, and as we've also seen for many a part of that subculture is a, real or perceived, sense of bring marginalized and outcasts. Normally I wouldn't say anyone would want to preserve that, but if you're the kind of bitter, spiteful person that would make porn comics or send rape threats might you want to hang onto that marginalization to fuel your bitterness?

they envy the credibility their victims gain and also claim they are victims, yes. not sure how much that motivates actions tho.

 

[Nephrahim]

In general or related to GG?

At the moment I feel like the same, so I'd be interest in either.

I'm very curious, because as I see people pushing back against Gamergate, I really don't see an end-game.

 

[Lime]

And what do you think we should do to stop the harassment, rape threats, and execution?

First: People should stop joining, advocating, and signal-boosting a movement characterized by harassment, misogyny and maintaining the status quo.

Second: People should do whatever they can within reasonable limits to stand against and call out bigoted behavior and statements.

Third: This is the positive step. Strive to include more diverse voices and experiences in whatever it is that you produce or contribute with. Make things more diverse by emphasizing perspectives usually excluded or marginalized within the context.

 

[Vlade]

This is what fascinates me about this whole thing. There's barely any middle ground. Someone I think before mentioned the horseshoe effect. What I'm saying is a lot(not all!) of people seem to have lost their reason and it's become a war fought inch by inch with no quarter given.

the existence of middle ground is a logical fallacy - that poles of thought are determined by the fates and must be just and correct. they are not, thought does not exist on a line and people planned attacks do not determine the poles. i do not concede whatsoever that gamers have been treated unfairly and deserve to harass women. there is no quarter on those points, they are incorrect.

 

[Nephrahim]

First: People should stop joining, advocating, and signal-boosting a movement characterized by harassment, misogyny and maintaining the status quo.

Second: People should do whatever they can within reasonable limits to stand against and call out bigoted behavior and statements.

Third: This is the positive step. Strive to include more diverse voices and experiences in whatever it is that you produce or contribute with. Make things more diverse by emphasizing perspectives usually excluded or marginalized within the context.

The thing is, I don't see any of that stopping Gamergate at all. I know the people who are doing this stuff. They're convinced they're right and are going to keep continuing. I mean, they got kicked off 4chan and are still going!

 

[freddy]

I actually think the more moderate side of Gamergate could be a huge asset in lobbying publishers and developers to be more inclusive. From what I've seen they're very organised. Still eventually it will die down and I can see some common good for all coming out of it.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

At the moment I feel like the same, so I'd be interest in either.

I'm very curious, because as I see people pushing back against Gamergate, I really don't see an end-game.

I think that one of the big issues with harassment is that very often people get called liars, attention seekers or somehow blamed/shamed for pointing out the fact that it is happening to them or others. (or some variation of them "Deserving it")

On a cultural level a lot of abuse and harassment gets endorsed by people instantly resorting to this sort of behavior. (Often because the "deserving it" goes hand in hand with the villification set up by detractors/harassers.)

 

[Lime]

The thing is, I don't see any of that stopping Gamergate at all. I know the people who are doing this stuff. They're convinced they're right and are going to keep continuing. I mean, they got kicked off 4chan and are still going!

I think Mattie Brice does an excellent job (as alwasys) talking about the seemingly futility in combatting bigotry and structural and normative opppression:

You cannot solve the big problems and they will most likely still be there when you’re dead. Many people who suffer from things like racism or ableism or any other ism are already affected by the horrible things systemic oppression does to people. By the time you fully understand these things, it’s already a little too late for you. The best case scenario by now is to make it easier for the ones that come after you. But this doesn’t help people now; if you are judging your actions in relation to trying to stop all sexism, that is an overwhelming and impossible task. The people on the front line know this, and you should know this too. Adjust how you’re looking at the problem, from something to solve a global issue to a community and personal issues. Just take this as a fact: the world isn’t changing fast enough for the people alive today. Even if you snapped your fingers and halted the machinations of oppression, you have lots of people with behavior to unlearn, probably including yourself. Start with yourself.

Instead of ‘how can I solve oppression for every person on the planet,’ start close to home; are you doing things for your loved ones? Have you sat down with the people in your life you know are minoritized and had meaningful conversations about these topics and how you could contribute to their safety? Do they even know they can come to you in the first place about these sorts of issues? Harassment and oppression are not only touchy subjects, but they also aren’t widely taught. People aren’t often going to just share this information whenever it happens. If you’ve never explicitly said to someone “If there is anything I can do to make you feel safer,” don’t assume they think that you are offering that. You may believe that you’re a good person and everyone can take on faith that you’d help and listen, but life experience usually dictates that not only isn’t this common, but most people don’t know how to properly handle the discussion. Read up on common derailing tactics, and learn how to actively listen. If everyone in the world did this, we would be in a better place. So start with the people you trust and work outwards from there.

http://www.mattiebrice.com/how-do-i-help/

 

[deathkiller]

First: People should stop joining, advocating, and signal-boosting a movement characterized by harassment, misogyny and maintaining the status quo.

Second: People should do whatever they can within reasonable limits to stand against and call out bigoted behavior and statements.

Third: This is the positive step. Strive to include more diverse voices and experiences in whatever it is that you produce or contribute with. Make things more diverse by emphasizing perspectives usually excluded or marginalized within the context.

Umn, I think that is better to propose something more specific, for example to try to get respected/big developers/publishers to do clear Anti-GamerGate statements. Aimed specifically at the hashtag itself saying that they will block in all Twitter accounts anyone that uses the hashtag from now on.

 

[jstripes]

It really is time for gaming to grow up and deal with the terribly toxic gaming culture.

Unfortunately, the toxic culture is always going to be there, because video games inherently attract the kind of people who have zero clue about what's socially acceptable. A game is a world they know the rules of that they can escape into. They're a minority at this point, but they're loud.

Finding a way to contain that toxic culture is about all that can be done.

 

[Lime]

Umn, I think that is better to propose something more specific, for example to try to get respected/big developers/publishers to do clear Anti-GamerGate statements. Aimed specifically at the hashtag itself saying that they will block in all Twitter accounts anyone that uses the hashtag from now on.

Of course, but I was talking about specific people within Gamergate and what they can do, because the context of the conversation was giving quarters to people within Gamergate.

 

[deathkiller]

Of course, but I was talking about specific people within Gamergate and what they can do, because the context of the conversation was giving quarters to people within Gamergate.

Ah, I missed that. In that specific case I don't think that anyone except maybe close friends of the harassers can convince them to stop. The best solution for those "in the middle ground" is GamerGate to cease to exist and promote "authority calls" (respected/big developers/publishers) for it to cease to exist rather than fighting the firmly pro-GamerGate directly.

 

[tchocky]

Stephen Totilo has wrote an article marking their 10 years anniversary taling about future changes. The main thing is to continue covering games after release and less on previews and the hype cycle.

http://kotaku.com/the-future-of-kotakus-video-game-coverage-is-the-prese-1644297778

I think this is definitely an improvement and something I have been hoping more game sites would do for years now. He briefly alludes to GamerGate near the end of the article.

I believe that at least some of the perennial sense of disenfranchisement some gamers feel from the press stems from the correct instinct by all sorts of readers that reporters on the scene spend too much time and energy covering the vacuous hype of pre-release video games, while ceding the fascinating discussions of how a game's life continues after release to message boards and other supposed non-professionals. In that sense, yes, what we're doing that I've been describing here is aimed to better serve anyone who loves and cares about games.

 

[zeldablue]

And what do you think we should do to stop the harassment, rape threats, and exclusion?

It's already happening. The only way to combat the problem is to first admit there is a problem. Because of Gamergate a lot of people inside the industry are now hyper aware that there is a very real problem and it's happening at full force now. After becoming aware of the problem, people can actively stop denying the existence of the problem.

As more and more people stop denying, there will be more and more people who do more to call out the problem when they see it. As more and more people call out the problem, the deniers will fade off and the harassers will actually be a tiny minority. Gamergate doesn't realize that all their denial is what drives their hatred and harassment...therefore they're not even aware of how much harm they've done.

I'm already seeing gaming schools discuss gender studies, game companies creating support groups for mob harassment and guys in the industry addressing the fear they see in their female co-workers. That's a huge start. And a good one. By targeting specific "corrupt" women in the industry, Gamergate has actually caused more people to realize the problematic nature of our little sub-culture.

Stephen Totilo has wrote an article marking their 10 years anniversary taling about future changes. The main thing is to continue covering games after release and less on previews and the hype cycle.

http://kotaku.com/the-future-of-kotakus-video-game-coverage-is-the-prese-1644297778

I think this is definitely an improvement and something I have been hoping more game sites would do for years now. He briefly alludes to GamerGate near the end of the article.

Oooh....That sounds nice.

 

[freddy]

Stephen Totilo has wrote an article marking their 10 years anniversary taling about future changes. The main thing is to continue covering games after release and less on previews and the hype cycle.

http://kotaku.com/the-future-of-kotakus-video-game-coverage-is-the-prese-1644297778

I think this is definitely an improvement and something I have been hoping more game sites would do for years now. He briefly alludes to GamerGate near the end of the article.

Thanks for this.

 

[tonysidaway]

And what do you think we should do to stop the harassment, rape threats, and exclusion?

I think a good way forward would be to stop making excuses. I long ago wearied of thread comments that start "harassment is wrong" and then go on to justify it by repeating the stupid lies that have led to the harassment.

 

[Abelian75]

Stephen Totilo has wrote an article marking their 10 years anniversary taling about future changes. The main thing is to continue covering games after release and less on previews and the hype cycle.

http://kotaku.com/the-future-of-kotakus-video-game-coverage-is-the-prese-1644297778

I think this is definitely an improvement and something I have been hoping more game sites would do for years now. He briefly alludes to GamerGate near the end of the article.

Yeah, I think this is a really great thing to see, and I agree this is probably closely related to the root cause of all this mess.

 

[Lime]

Stephen Totilo has wrote an article marking their 10 years anniversary taling about future changes. The main thing is to continue covering games after release and less on previews and the hype cycle.

http://kotaku.com/the-future-of-kotakus-video-game-coverage-is-the-prese-1644297778

I think this is definitely an improvement and something I have been hoping more game sites would do for years now. He briefly alludes to GamerGate near the end of the article.

I don't see how this is unique to Gamergate. Everyone and their mom are already critical of the preview coverage and the sycophantic hype machine in video games journalism and cover, so I don't see how Gamergate has anything to do with Totilo's statement. Besides, there's no social justice issues involved in the letter, so automatically Gamergate shouldn't care about this.

Yeah, I think this is a really great thing to see, and I agree this is probably closely related to the root cause of all this mess.

How is this closely related to the root cause of all this mess? What is the root cause of all this mess?

 

[zeldablue]

I don't see how this is unique to Gamergate. Everyone and their mom are already critical of the preview coverage and the sycophantic hype machine in video games journalism and cover, so I don't see how Gamergate has anything to do with Totilo's statement. Besides, there's no social justice issues involved in the letter, so automatically Gamergate shouldn't care about this.



How is this closely related to the root cause of all this mess? What is the root cause of all this mess?

Umm,

Five guys. :\

 

[Nephrahim]

I think Mattie Brice does an excellent job (as alwasys) talking about the seemingly futility in combatting bigotry and structural and normative opppression:



http://www.mattiebrice.com/how-do-i-help/

I feel like this is very different then what many people are doing, which is trying to attack Gamergate people on Twitter.

Like, at this point, even articles on Gamergate feel like they're hurting more then anything. Everyone's already out and having chosen a side. Telling people to denounce it isn't helping anyone.

Umm,

Five guys. :\

It's been longer then five guys.

I feel like it really started during the Gone Home hype (a game I've never touched, for the record.)

 

[tonysidaway]

Like, at this point, even articles on Gamergate feel like they're hurting more then anything. Everyone's already out and having chosen a side. Telling people to denounce it isn't helping anyone.

Actually, that is exactly the only thing that helps, in my opinion. Disgusting behaviour can't be stopped except by the most forthright and universal condemnation.

 

[Abelian75]

How is this closely related to the root cause of all this mess? What is the root cause of all this mess?

Much like Erik Kain (and I felt this way before he said it), I think this is basically the same as the Mass Effect 3 situation, just blown up on a larger scale. I think it's about the gaming community feeling alienated by and from the larger gaming sites.

Specifically, I think Kotaku focusing on covering what gamers are actually DOING, rather than what stuff in the future they will be playing, will make for a much closer relationship with the readers. I don't think any of this could have happened the way it did if gamers as a whole felt respected by the people writing articles for them (whether or not that sentiment is fair).

I know you disagree, and that's ok, but I am definitely in the camp that thinks all the misogyny and harassment discussions (while certainly important!) don't have much to do with the actual issues that set the stage for the whole gamergate mess, and are kind of a distraction from actually working to fix the root problems behind all of this.

Don't get me wrong, though, I blame the people doing the harassment several orders of magnitude more than those discussing it for doing the "distracting".

 

[Lime]

I know you disagree, and that's ok, but I am definitely in the camp that thinks all the misogyny and harassment discussions (while certainly important!) don't have much to do with the actual issues that set the stage for the whole gamergate mess, and are kind of a distraction from actually working to fix the root problems behind all of this.

If misogyny and harassment discussions don't have much to do with the actual issues that started the whole mess, what were the actual issues of Gamergate? What were the goals and what were the outcomes of the campaign? And what did it result in?

I don't think any of this could have happened the way it did if gamers as a whole felt respected by the people writing articles for them (whether or not that sentiment is fair).

In what way do you think that gamers as a whole have been disrespected by the people writing articles for them? And how could it be done correctly or properly?

 

[zeldablue]

I feel like this is very different then what many people are doing, which is trying to attack Gamergate people on Twitter.

Like, at this point, even articles on Gamergate feel like they're hurting more then anything. Everyone's already out and having chosen a side. Telling people to denounce it isn't helping anyone.



It's been longer then five guys.

I feel like it really started during the Gone Home hype (a game I've never touched, for the record.)

Oh, well. I thought you meant what started Gamergate.

If we're talking about all the things that built up.
1. Anita Sarkeesian's Kickstarter
2. Anita Sarkeesians Ted Talk
3. Anita Sarkeesian's articles and news videos on harassment
4. Dragon's crown is sexist?
5. Arno? Why not Arnetta?
6. Link? Why not Linkette?
7. Castlevania has rape?
8. Too many white guys at E3?
9. GTA5 is misogynistic?
10. Women in tech are harassed a lot because of misogyny?
11. Wolf d***s?
12. Anita Sarkeesian got a GDC award?
13. Zoe is an evil woman?
14. Dina is a temptress?
15. Zoe, Dina, Anita are manipulative temptresses?
16. Journalists don't think these women are manipulative temptresses?
17. These gaming companies don't think these women are manipulative temptresses?
18. Don't cut out that funny rape scene in Hotline Miami!
19. Gone Home won an award?!?
20. Why are there no girls in FFXV...
21. Gamers are dead now?
22. How come no one believes these women are manipulative temptresses?
23. They're all corrupt.

They're all corrupt. Basically a lot of people hated a couple of women. Like...super despise. When reporters and industry people started protecting, awarding and glorifying these women, it was an act of betrayal and proof that SJWs had corrupted the gaming medium.

 

[Nephrahim]

Actually, that is exactly the only thing that helps, in my opinion. Disgusting behaviour can't be stopped except by the most forthright and universal condemnation.

But they'll never be universal condemnation because if there was there'd be nobody to condemn.

That's my point. They're going to keep doing it no matter how much you condemn them, so I don't think it helps.

Oh, well. I thought you meant what started Gamergate.

If we're talking about all the things that built up.
1. Anita Sarkeesian's Kickstarter
2. Anita Sarkeesians Ted Talk
3. Anita Sarkeesian's articles and news videos on harassment
4. Dragon's crown is sexist?
5. Arno? Why not Arnetta?
6. Link? Why not Linkette?
7. Castlevania has rape?
8. Too many white guys at E3?
9. GTA5 is misogynistic?
10. Women in tech are harassed a lot because of misogyny?
11. Wolf d***s?
12. Anita Sarkeesian got a GDC award?
13. Zoe is an evil woman?
14. Dina is a temptress?
15. Zoe, Dina, Anita are manipulative temptresses?
16. Journalists don't think these women are manipulative temptresses?
17. These gaming companies don't think these women are manipulative temptresses?
18. Don't cut out that funny rape scene in Hotline Miami!
19. Gone Home won an award?!?
20. Why are there no girls in FFXV...
21. Gamers are dead now?
22. How come no one believes these women are manipulative temptresses?
23. They're all corrupt.

They're all corrupt.

Oh, I forgot about Anita. That's another good starting point.

 

[zeldablue]

But they'll never be universal condemnation because if there was there'd be nobody to condemn.

That's my point. They're going to keep doing it no matter how much you condemn them, so I don't think it helps.



Oh, I forgot about Anita. That's another good starting point.

I think it's more important to articulate exactly why certain things are condemnable...instead of saying "You guys are bad!" it should focus on "This is a bad thing that keeps happening and this is why."

I mean...a lot of sociologists are studying this as it happens. But these sociologists are also being attacked as they research, so I guess everything they say is "biased." :S

 

[Deleted member 126221]

But they'll never be universal condemnation because if there was there'd be nobody to condemn.

That's my point. They're going to keep doing it no matter how much you condemn them, so I don't think it helps.

At least, speaking out against this shit gives it more (negative) mainstream exposure. These people won't stop because they're too far down their conspiracy theories and persecution complex, but shaming their behavior prevents more people from blindly joining, and sends a general message that acting like this is never, ever okay.

 

[Abelian75]

I feel sort of like an asshole saying this, but I don't actually want to get into that long a debate here, if that's ok. I respect everyone's right to their opinion, but this is a fairly hostile space right now from my perspective.

But, to answer your questions briefly:

If misogyny and harassment discussions don't have much to do with the actual issues that started the whole mess, what were the actual issues of Gamergate? What were the goals and what were the outcomes of the campaign? And what did it result in?

The actual issues were the alienation from the gaming press, as I mentioned. The goals were and are incoherent as stated by the angry mob, because it's an angry mob. People in groups tend to be incredibly dumb. But yeah, the ethics stuff is a distraction too. Pretty much anything beyond "you guys keep hurting our feelings" is a distraction. I don't mean that to diminish the importance of not hurting people's feelings in any way.

No idea what it resulted in yet.

In what way do you think that gamers as a whole have been disrespected by the people writing articles for them? And how could it be done correctly or properly?

In the present day this question has such an obvious answer that I assume you won't agree with it, but, y'know... Gamers are wailing obtuse shitslingers and such. And prior to that, the whole "entitled gamers" thing. Just a general "us vs. them" stance from the gaming press, wagon circling, etc.

Edit: Oh, as for how it could be done properly, I think Stevie Tote's (yes, I have a nickname for him. It's not weird.) approach is an excellent starting point for bringing the gaming press's experience with games more closely in line with consumer's relationships with them.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I wouldn't call Anita the starting point, she was just the first person so visibly not the monster she was claimed to be.

 

[tonysidaway]

But they'll never be universal condemnation because if there was there'd be nobody to condemn.

I'm talking about condemnation of exceptionally bad behaviour. We don't need somebody to condemn, just cessation of bad behaviour and an agreement that it's unacceptable.

Oh, I forgot about Anita. That's another good starting point.

Yes, it's been a long-running affair.

 

[zeldablue]

I wouldn't call Anita the starting point, she was just the first person so visibly not the monster she was claimed to be.

Well the main problem was that she was getting a lot of people to listen to her. And that was incredibly threatening. I think we're all more used to these types on women getting no attention. So when her little project kicked off, it was extremely annoying for many that she was getting any attention at all.

The more you try to silence her the more people will listen to her. And that must be frustrating for people who more than disagree with her.

 

[More_Badass]

But they'll never be universal condemnation because if there was there'd be nobody to condemn.

That's my point. They're going to keep doing it no matter how much you condemn them, so I don't think it helps.



Oh, I forgot about Anita. That's another good starting point.

Who is she? What did she do/talk about?

 

[Cyrano]

Well the main problem was that she was getting a lot of people to listen to her. And that was incredibly threatening. I think we're all more used to these types on women getting no attention. So when her little project kicked off, it was extremely annoying for many that she was getting any attention at all.

The more you try to silence her the more people will listen to her. And that must be frustrating for people who more than disagree with her.

Sure, but the backlash is disproportionate to anything she's done to a disgusting extreme.

 

[Lime]

this is a fairly hostile space right now from my perspective.

How do you experience that this is a hostile space? I'm genuinely curious, because unless you think Quinn has a manipulative vagina or that Sarkeesian is out to destroy video games or that Alexander is the Antichrist incarnate, then I think most people in this thread are appreciative and welcoming and forthcoming to you.

The actual issues were the alienation from the gaming press, as I mentioned.

In your experience, I can understand why you felt that way. However, the articles that you consider to be examples of alienation from the gaming press were responses to the harassment and death threats to Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian. By inserting yourself into that discussion and responding to the articles as if you are alienated and hated on by the gaming press, you implicitly stand with the ones who seek to not only reduce marginalized voices in video game spaces, but also the ones who propagate harassment and threats to women and people who question the status quo. You see my point?

In the present day this question has such an obvious answer that I assume you won't agree with it, but, y'know... Gamers are wailing obtuse shitslingers and such. And prior to that, the whole "entitled gamers" thing. Just a general "us vs. them" stance from the gaming press, wagon circling, etc.

Look, you are conflating the "entitled gamers" angle to what has been going on in this right-winged misogynistic shitfest. Journalists thinking that their readership and gamers are spoiled brats is independent from Gamergate in terms of the movement reacting to women in video game spaces, especially the ones who give a stern talking about how people who play video games are more than the basement-dwelling nerd that marketing has created and embraced by some people.

So you implicitly approach Gamergate from the wrong angle by thinking it is about journalists' view on gamers being entitled brats, when in fact this is an issue of people wanting to suppress criticism and opinions they don't agree with (read: womens' perspectives and experiences)

Edit: Oh, as for how it could be done properly, I think Stevie Tote's (yes, I have a nickname for him. It's not weird.) approach is an excellent starting point for bringing the gaming press's experience with games more closely in line with consumer's relationships with them.

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with Gamergate, its origins, its aims, its consequences, and its ideology.

 

[zeldablue]

Sure, but the backlash is disproportionate to anything she's done to a disgusting extreme.

Well...of course.

But they obviously don't see it that way.
To them it's more like "Why am I not allowed to say what I want to say? Stop protecting her, she's a scam artist."

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Well the main problem was that she was getting a lot of people to listen to her. And that was incredibly threatening. I think we're all more used to these types on women getting no attention. So when her little project kicked off, it was extremely annoying for many that she was getting any attention at all.

The more you try to silence her the more people will listen to her. And that must be frustrating for people who more than disagree with her.

I think Anita's only the starting point if we're talking about visibility. It's not like they never tried to silence anyone before Anita before, I'd just say Anita is the first time they failed miserably.

 

[Cyrano]

Well...of course.

But they obviously don't see it that way.
To them it's more like "Why am I not allowed to say what I want to say? Stop protecting her, she's a scam artist."

You got me there, heh.

 

[SteveO409]

http://recode.net/2014/10/09/what-is-gamergate-and-why-is-intel-so-afraid-of-it/


Love these stock images! SO ANGRY!!!

 

[Abelian75]

How do you experience that this is a hostile space? I'm genuinely curious

It's just a very ideologically-driven conversation. It's difficult to talk about anything here other than misogyny, I guess. That's an important topic, I agree, but it makes for a hostile environment when you try to talk about something else or suggest that it isn't the root cause of this situation.

It's ok to keep talking about that, certainly. I just wanted to chime in because someone linked Totilo's article and I thought it was really good and would help heal some of these wounds.

 

[NickFire]

I think the more moderate side of GG has had a positive effect over at Kotaku. They are moving into a less hype machine model of reporting, which has been a big issue for a lot of people in recent years. If the ant-GG crowd differentiates the moderates from the trolls, they could combine voices with the moderates and perhaps help make more games more inclusive with a larger collective voice.

 

[zeldablue]

It's just a very ideologically-driven conversation. It's difficult to talk about anything here other than misogyny, I guess. That's an important topic, I agree, but it makes for a hostile environment when you try to talk about something else or suggest that it isn't the root cause of this situation.

It's ok to keep talking about that, certainly. I just wanted to chime in because someone linked Totilo's article and I thought it was really good and would help heal some of these wounds.

I think that's a good start. I'd like to see the journalists make amends, since I know this isn't just about harassing women. It's more broadly just the result of distrust. Trust is not a rational concept, it is instinctually tied to how much you relate to other people. There are a lot of things that create distrust...but the quickest way to create distrust is to tweet an Anita video like Tim Schafer did. The lack of transparency between big AAA companies and journalists have never been at the forefront of Gamergate. They've admitted time and time again, they don't care about the big stuff, just the indie/artsy/hipster/Marxist/young San Fran stuff. It's all been about the small people and what the small people are doing.

Edit: The obvious solution is to build trust back up. Which is a very hard thing to do.