#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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Just backread the thread and man Boogie, I think you take criticism a bit too much to heart. I disagree with your stances on this but I don't see many people in this thread that think you're a worthless monster like you seem to think.

I don't think you should disengage, do as you see fit obviously, but I do think your reading of people taking issue with you is way too harsh, and you should come back to them with a clearer head, because nothing in this thread warranted that "just kill me" talk.

I'll need to consider that. its hard to take this type of thing subjective. when I read things like "he really doesnt get it" or "man i can't believe he's saying that kind of thing" or even some of the posts people got banned over, it keeps me up at night.

I don't plan to disengage from this conversation as long as I'm capable of carrying on. I just meant I'm putting some last touches on some videos so I can take a break then eventually go to sleep :D
<3
 
The amusing part about the not working "Football fans- Gamers" comparison ( where the hell is it even coming from), is, once again, the reality. There are fan initiatives against racism, violent ones are getting expelled etc. etc. It has been noticed as a problem and fans and organisators and clubs are fighting against it.

Now in the videogames community...
Known racists and hooligans get banned from stadiums and are fined. There are many fan-led campaigns against such behaviour. So yeah, the comparison is shit.
Soccer fans hate hooligans.
 
There are definitely a lot of bad eggs in the #GG group, there's no denying that. There are possibly more bad than good.. but the good ones are the ones we're trying to protect.

To this point, and to basically everything Boogie's been saying...

Gamers don't need to be defended, or protected, or anything. Gamers were never under attack. The identity was never under attack.

The traditional Gamer demographic was always the most desirable marketing section imaginable. Young white men with disposable income. For a long time that was what Gamer meant. Maybe not to you or anyone you know, but that's what it meant to society and to business and to politics. And yes, that is where all the negative gamer stereotypes come in. That's not what the authors think, duh. Most of them are lifelong gamers. That is what got tied up in with that identity, that and now the worst kinds of people, who are hurling all the abuse.

The truth is all the scary stuff with Mortal Kombat and Hot Coffee when I was fucking 8 or something just could never happen any more. Games are too profitable, too ubiquitous. The President has a Wii.

The whole point of those articles wasn't that the "Gamer" identity was totally over, it's that the traditional business and wider cultural idea of what that meant, and which has been held onto for far too long, with destructive effects, isn't applicable any more, that Gamers can be and are almost anyone and everyone now. That should not be a message anyone feels they have to defend against, it should be celebrated.

Some people simply misread the article. Some let others tell them what it said without thinking critically. Some people genuinely hate the idea of the Gamer identity being diluted. Some people just didn't read beyond the title, or let their snap judgement of it colour their reading of the whole article, which never once ascribes misogyny or stereotypes to everyone who plays games, or even to Gamergate. And some people hate that it was an opinionated woman saying it.

Gamergate does not need to be defended. They are the status quo. Even if you're just defending the nice parts, or whatever. Their only proscribed crime is being misinformed, misguided or wilfully ignorant about what they are taking part in. That's why there have been cries for two goddamn months of "Abandon this ship of stinking decay and find something else." Because nobody denies that the industry isn't perfect. They know there are at some level some people with genuine aims they're trying to get out of this, but they're misguidedly riding along on a monster to try and achieve them, and nobody is going to engage with you when you can't even recognise that.

And after two months I've stopped having any sympathy for those people. The amount of effort it has to have taken to avoid all the perfectly reasoned deconstructions of the situation is staggering at this point.

You say many people are starting to wake up to what they inadvertently became a part of, which is wonderful. Hopefully nobody holds a grudge against those people. But its happening too slowly, and every day that it continues on means the potential for more lives to be ruined. That's why many people want more prominent gaming sites to break this shit down. Not just to add their voice to the "harassment is gross" pile of near-uselessness, but to try and snap those people awake and out of their stubborn support of a movement they can't even see for what it really is.
 
Edit: Buuuut, given your posts in the interim it's obvious you're here to be pedantic and contrarian, despite a whole thread full of the evidence you're asking for. It's not our job to read through our posts and pick out things to cure your ignorance.

I'm not being contrarian for asking you to back up the statements you're making.

I'd be very happy to drop the argument if you could actually provide some legitimate proof behind your baseless claims.
 
I'm not sure if you all have seen this, but it's something that I've found rather interesting.

http://topsy.com/analytics?q1=#game... -"leighalexander" -@leighalexander&via=Topsy

This isn't hard proof of anything of course and obviously it doesn't account for things out of context so it's more of a ballpark than hard data, but it does show something that's quite telling:
In the above link is all uses of the GG hashtag over the past month compared to a search of those same results, removing keywords such as "zoe quinn", "anita sarkeesian", "sjw", and other words. The resulting (Blue) number is the amount of GG tweets that have nothing whatsoever to do with these particular hot-button topics.

These awful things that you guys are referring to represent LESS THAN TEN PERCENT of GG as a whole. Honestly, how can you call GG as a whole bad when only eight percent of the tweets in it are involved with the hot-button topics in question?


What are the messages of most of these tweets? Because ethics turns up 20k results, slightly less than SJW. I'm not sure this data is helpful unless we can see what that supposed other 80 percent is talking about. Even "Games" only tops out at less than 50k.
 
People. Hello. People?

What is important to read up on right now is the December 1st hearing on the ELONIS V. UNITED STATES case in the Supreme Court of the United States of America. Go read the brief amici curiae statements.

HERE. READ THIS PDF.

And this one especially.

Here's another interesting one with a counter argument to the above two.

If you really care about journalism, reporting, free speech, free expression, threats against people on the internet, and the validity of threatening speech on the internet.... just read up on this case. It's actually important to this whole thing and we're just ignoring it.... Please stop ignoring it. If you want intelligent conversation on the legal side of this entire thing.. please read the statements in this case. It's important...
 
I'm not asking you to prove that "GamerGate did it", I'm asking you to to show me your evidence that the people who have done these things are a part of GamerGate.

When were these threats ever done under the hashtag? Where is the connection between crazies making threats and GG outside of the fact that you don't like GG so therefore GG did it?

Ok, so here's a few people involved in Gamergate that did shitty things:

Milo Yanopolous - has pre-existing lawsuits against him for sexual harassment in the workplace, posted personal information (doxxing) of various game journalists, is a general shitbag.
PressFartToContinue - is a genuinely creepy stalker dude with an obsession about a Youtube girl, to the point where she had to get a restraining order or some shit, gamergate personality, hosted a bunch of discussions for them on his channel.
Weev - Jailed hacker, pledged support for Gamergate, is also literal Nazi white supremacist and misogynist who doxxed a women in tech for supporting moderation of comments on internet sites, including making pornography of her kids.
RogueStar - Gamergate organiser, doxxed Zoe Quinn and tried to get her to commit suicide - Gamergate eventually realised this guy was too extreme and got rid of him, but are now supporting him after the Escapist removed his comments from their article, because Gamergate supports abusers.
Zoes Ex, Can't remember the name - Expressed a desire to put Zoe into therapy, then deleted it from Twitter, constantly changed his story to keep up attacks on her. Got Gamergate to support his legal costs for the harassment suit put against him, which they paid, because they support harassment.
 
People. Hello. People?

What is important to read up on right now is the December 1st hearing on the ELONIS V. UNITED STATES case in the Supreme Court of the United States of America. Go read the brief amici curiae statements.

HERE. READ THIS PDF.

And this one especially.

Here's another interesting one with a counter argument to the above two.

If you really care about journalism, reporting, free speech, free expression, threats against people on the internet, and the validity of threatening speech on the internet.... just read up on this case. It's actually important to this whole thing and we're just ignoring it.... Please stop ignoring it. If you want intelligent conversation on the legal side of this entire thing.. please read the statements in this case. It's important...
Yeah, but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s8z5fcWQrA&t=8m
 
The identity of the person who harassed Anita may have been figured out, apparently they have passed the information onto Anita.
 
What are the messages of most of these tweets? Because ethics turns up 20k results, slightly less than SJW. I'm not sure this data is helpful unless we can see what that supposed other 80 percent is talking about. Even "Games" only tops out at less than 50k.

That's certainly fair. Like I said, it's not hard data and I of course have no way of telling that sort of thing either.

I'd like to see that kind of data myself.
 
Before I exit this thread and while this video is compiling I once again want to state how I genuinely feel about this stuff as I tend to continue to be a topic of discussion.

I love gaming. I love games. I love gamers. I've always loved these things since I was a little kid. The entire time I've been a gamer though I've had to defend my love of the hobby (and now of course, my career).

I care about the industry. I care about consumer rights. I care about journalistic integrity. I care about treating customers fairly and the way that they deserve.

I care about women. I was raised by a woman who was crazy and abusive, but also a strong and devout feminist. She took care of her invalid husband and raised me. She taught me that a woman was just as good as a man and deserved to be treated equally. I've never lost sight of that and hopefully never will.

I spend every day trying to teach gamers to treat each other nicely. I spend every day trying to create an inclusive gaming community, an inclusive youtube channel, and encourage the folks who watch to be inclusive as well. I try to bring out the awesome in everyone and ask them nicely to overcome their bad sides.

In gamergate I have done all of these things. I have asked for integrity in the industry. I have supported women. I have defended gamers. I have been harassed, and doxxed, and threatened, and even seen some of those threats made good.

But I also endure. My entire life I have fought for these things. I will fight for them now and I will use the #gamergate hashtag to communicate with those who will listen who also use this hashtag. I will ask them to ask for integrity. I will ask them to be kind. I will ask them to support women. I will ask them to be awesome and to overcome their bad sides.

I will also be inexplicably condemned for this and that's ok. I'm really getting used to that sort of thing.

I still do not plan to change that message and I still do not believe that simply using that hashtag and fighting for these things makes me or my message worthless.

I will continue to deliver it any way that I can until no one else cares to listen. I do this out of love for the hobby and for the love of my fellow human.

Say what you will about me, and condemn my mistakes. But please always know I do what I do out of love.

You have 110% of my support boogie. Thanks for putting yourself out there, I realize it hasn't been easy for you to say the least.
 
Except that's not what my point was.
If all you can do in response to actual questions is offer up flippant remarks rather than actually say anything of value, you're not worth my time.

The hashtag was literally created to spread a video harassing Zoe Quinn for her imagined sexual misconduct. Brianna Wu was doxxed on the gamergate board on 8chan. You really have no idea what you're on about.
 
Zoes Ex, Can't remember the name - Expressed a desire to put Zoe into therapy, then deleted it from Twitter, constantly changed his story to keep up attacks on her. Got Gamergate to support his legal costs for the harassment suit put against him, which they paid, because they support harassment.

Got any proof of this? How did he constantly change his story.
 
I've been watching this go on since before GG was a thing, and it's an interesting evolution. From the exboyfriends manifesto & the original attacks on Zoe Quinn & Anita Sarkeesian, the spread of InternetAristrocrats videos which attacked Zoe Quinn and were full of false allegations, the linking by Adam Baldwin on Twitter of those videos which created the hashtag gamergate in the first place. The media responding negatively to this harassment, which led to the harassment of people like Jenn Frank and Leigh Alexander. The creation of more and more youtube videos and imgur conspiracy theories that spread around pointing out corruption where there was none, primarily focused on women & men who support feminist critique & indie games. Gamergate used to attack all these people because it was "corruption", whether it was collusion or because they were reporting harassment that never happened or claiming people like Anita never actually talked to the police or that everything ever was a falseflag. All those major accusations being proved false.

Now it seems like there's apparently a new group of people who don't care/don't know about any of that stuff, yet they feel the absolute need to defend gamergate from all criticism. I don't know if its people who were duped and roped into the cause because of people spreading misinformation about an "anti-gamer" conspiracy or what, but saying that because people are innocently going around minimizing and/or denying people's harassment and gaslighting them about the history of the hashtag because they don't know any better doesn't seem like a defense of gamergate at all. It just makes it sound worse.
 
Oh yeah, I'm talking about the allegations that he has been constantly changing his story etc. If I'm not mistaken his tweet said something like 'that she gets professional help', is there a cap of it somewhere?
 
He's probably referring to this tweet: https://twitter.com/eron_gj/status/514514465812144130

However his Gofundme was cancelled (not sure if by him or the site). So he won't get the money. But he did ask for it, and he was getting some before it died.

Not just that, but for all of the "Gamergate doesn't support doxxers/abusers", the very people who doxxed the women involved (which we know about from the very IRC logs GG released) are still on 8chan, even though people who disagreed with an article get permabanned. What message does that send about their attitude to doxxing and abuse?
 
The hashtag was literally created to spread a video harassing Zoe Quinn for her imagined sexual misconduct. Brianna Wu was doxxed on the gamergate board on 8chan. You really have no idea what you're on about.

He has though. That graph was first used by GG people on twitter to "prove" that roughly only 8% of them are "awful". But by his own admission that analysis is meaningless. Who made those tweets? Why those keywords? How much percentage would be "meaningful"? Why does this matter when we know how the movement originated?
 

A verdict that holds that "no proof of subjective intent precedent" is needed for legal ramifications is bad news for everyone. It's nice to think about the emotional sides and hurt feelings of people....

But I think it's important for us to look at impending legal decisions.

That's rough, person in the video, and I know that things will get better for you eventually... unless the case I mentioned goes wildly in the wrong way. That's why it's important to read up on that case.
 
I've been watching this go on since before GG was a thing, and it's an interesting evolution. From the exboyfriends manifesto & the original attacks on Zoe Quinn & Anita Sarkeesian, the spread of InternetAristrocrats videos which attacked Zoe Quinn and were full of false allegations, the linking by Adam Baldwin on Twitter of those videos which created the hashtag gamergate in the first place. The media responding negatively to this harassment, which led to the harassment of people like Jenn Frank and Leigh Alexander. The creation of more and more youtube videos and imgur conspiracy theories that spread around pointing out corruption where there was none, primarily focused on women & men who support feminist critique & indie games. Gamergate used to attack all these people because it was "corruption", whether it was collusion or because they were reporting harassment that never happened or claiming people like Anita never actually talked to the police or that everything ever was a falseflag. All those major accusations being proved false.

Now it seems like there's apparently a new group of people who don't care/don't know about any of that stuff, yet they feel the absolute need to defend gamergate from all criticism. I don't know if its people who were duped and roped into the cause because of people spreading misinformation about an "anti-gamer" conspiracy or what, but saying that because people are innocently going around minimizing and/or denying people's harassment and gaslighting them about the history of the hashtag because they don't know any better doesn't seem like a defense of gamergate at all. It just makes it sound worse.

I didn't care about the controversy at all until there were widespread refusals to discuss the matters on all major sites, a while back Erik Kain put together a hangouts with Greg Tito, John Bain, Janelle Bonanno and they discussed this exact thing. John Bain (Total Biscuit) described exactly what happened to me; legitimate press refused to respond to the allegations, they refused to cover it and explain themselves and those interested in that level of censorship were driven to the sources who were willing to cover it.

It was entirely inappropriate given the nature of the allegations. The refusal to allow discussion, the widespread censorship that occurred afterwards drove individuals to the sources who were willing to provide coverage. Those individuals didn't have the best journalistic practices but when you're the only game in town you inherently won't face the same level of scrutiny. I didn't watch the Five Guys video and take everything it said as gospel but I understand why it became as big as it did.
 
Oh yeah, I'm talking about the allegations that he has been constantly changing his story etc. If I'm not mistaken his tweet said something like 'that she gets professional help', is there a cap of it somewhere?

He changed his story when stuff like the writing up of that indie reality show that went south turned out to be outside the date they were dating and so there was no conflict of interest.

And yeah, I have a cap of his tweet, but it's on my home PC so you'll have to wait.
 
I'm not being contrarian for asking you to back up the statements you're making.

I'd be very happy to drop the argument if you could actually provide some legitimate proof behind your baseless claims.

Okay. To one of my points, the origin of Gamergate:

The whole crisis emerged because of unfounded calls of journalistic ethics breaches by Zoe Quinn.

Those claims were debunked three days after the initial accusation. The harassment continued for almost two more weeks, however, spurred on by stupid youtube assholes spreading either blatant lies or extremely shoddy conspiracy theories.

One of these stupid fucking videos was linked by Adam Baldwin to which he amended the #Gamergate tag. This is the first use of the tag in its current form.

Quinn has continued receiving abuse every day, nearly constantly, for the past two months by the way. That never stopped. All because of well established falsehoods. It's pure slut-shaming and it's is misogynistic to its core.

The movement has never uncovered any evidence of any legitimate ethics breaches, to my knowledge. They have continued boycotts, excusing if not directly participating in harassment of people they disagree with or who they have linked in their ridiculous conspiracy webs. They decry harassment openly and say that they "Call it out when they see it" but do nothing to acknowledge or prevent that which forms the basis for their entire collective.

Nearly every person who has received threats or abuse has been simultaneously identified by Gamergate as a person of interest.

You keep asking us to identify exactly who is doing the doxxing or harassment, and to concretely link them to Gamergate. But it's not possible that way. Anonymous accounts are created that just happen to abuse targets of Gamergate's ire and we're supposed to ignore the link just because we can't draw a red line between them in paint?

I could tell you about the guy who is a prominent member of Gamergate, well known for spreading lies and propagating the ridiculous conspiracy pictures. He has a history of stalking and abuse towards at least one female youtube personality. I could tell you about Slade Villena, aka RogueStar, who is central to the collation and propagation of Gamergate targets and strategy. He was present in the early IRC chats, explicitly advocating the hacking of Zoe Quinn and Phil Fish, and if I remember correctly instructing them on how to doxx them.

I could tell you about Jenni Goodchild's growing collection of Gamergate-submitted survey answers that demonstrate the non-disgusting beliefs of Gamergate members. To a fault they have ignorant stances on Feminism, on cultural criticism, on imagined "SJW" conspiracies, and near universally on journalistic practices.

If you truly are asking in good faith, do excuse the welcome you've gotten. There are many people that seemingly refuse to acknowledge any negative impact Gamergate has had while simultaneously being unable to elaborate on any good its done.
 
It was entirely inappropriate given the nature of the allegations. The refusal to allow discussion, the widespread censorship that occurred afterwards drove individuals to the sources who were willing to provide coverage. Those individuals didn't have the best journalistic practices but when you're the only game in town you inherently won't face the same level of scrutiny. I didn't watch the Five Guys video and take everything it said as gospel but I understand why it became as big as it did.

The thing is it wasn't censorship, it was moderation!

Because there was no evidence for any of the claims (the reviews which were attested to exist, never existed) then there was nothing actually about gaming in the story - it was just some net relationship drama.

So yeah, no shit it got taken down from /r/games - because it was OFF TOPIC. Some doombrains just thought that was due to conspiracy, and not them posting it in the wrong forum.
 
Ok, so here's a few people involved in Gamergate that did shitty things:
<snip>

I'd like to make a note that I wasn't asking for "people who did bad things that are also in gamergate", I was asking for "people that did bad things under the banner of gamergate."

Milo, for example, I've made it clear on past pages in this thread that I don't like the guy but past things he's done are pretty irrelevant to the discussion. I asked for stuff that was done under GG, not about things people in GG have done. His past lawsuits and such have nothing to do with it. I'm not defending him at all and this doesn't make him deserving of respect but that doesn't answer my question.

Same about FartOfWar or whatever, unless it's related to GG, it's irrelevant to my question.

I wasn't asking about bad people in the movement, I was asking about bad things (in this case, specifically doxing and death threats) that people did under the banner of the movement. Pre-GG stuff or things that these people are doing in their own time, as terrible as it may be, doesn't have anything to do with GG.

In regards to the other stuff (such as the part about RogueStar doxing Zoe, for example), if you have links to these things I'm more than willing to see eye to eye.

The hashtag was literally created to spread a video harassing Zoe Quinn for her imagined sexual misconduct. Brianna Wu was doxxed on the gamergate board on 8chan. You really have no idea what you're on about.
The hashtag was created to spread a video about alleged misconduct between a game developer and a(t least one) journalist. Some stuff was debunked and some stuff wasn't but by the time the clarification on all that came out, GG had spread to a much wider scale. Just because it started out as being centered around sexual misconduxt doesn't mean that it's still centered around sexual misconduct.

As for Brianna Wu, do you have a link to the 8chan thread where it happened? Can you show me where GG people are the ones that did this? You realize that 8chan is anonymous and that ANYONE could have posted it there, right? I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt if you can show me where GG planned this out, though.
I'd like to remind you that the GG hashtag was used NOWHERE in the actual death threats that were sent to her.
How was GG responsible for that?

He's probably referring to this tweet: https://twitter.com/eron_gj/status/514514465812144130

However his Gofundme was cancelled (not sure if by him or the site). So he won't get the money. But he did ask for it, and he was getting some before it died.

He already GOT the money. The GoFundMe was successful and the initial hearing already happened. ...unless there was another campaign that I don't know about.
 
I didn't care about the controversy at all until there were widespread refusals to discuss the matters on all major sites, a while back Erik Kain put together a hangouts with Greg Tito, John Bain, Janelle Bonanno and they discussed this exact thing. John Bain (Total Biscuit) described exactly what happened to me; legitimate press refused to respond to the allegations, they refused to cover it and explain themselves and those interested in that level of censorship were driven to the sources who were willing to cover it.
This whole aspect of it is odd, because at the time the only news story was "Small Indie Dev's ExBoyfriend Says She Cheated On Him." That's not exactly a headline you usually see spread all over gaming sites. People like InternetAristocrat added in all sorts of false allegations about corruption and sex for review scores, all stuff that didn't happen and there is no evidence of. He and others made it sound like there was a huge juicy scandal that journalists were all mysteriously ignoring! But it was literally a non-story. The story then became "a bunch of people on the internet spread lies that cause harassment of an innocent indie game developer" because of the actions of those youtubers and twitter folks.
 
He changed his story when stuff like the writing up of that indie reality show that went south turned out to be outside the date they were dating and so there was no conflict of interest.
Eron Gjoni's "zoe post" isn't really about conflicts of interest (or anything GamerGate actually claims to care about) at all. It's about him being emotionally abused and lied to by her for months.
You and others would know this if you'd actually read it.

The reason it's so surprising that no website reported on it is because tabloid cesspools like Kotaku are perfectly content on report on other, similar stories if they have even the slightest relationship to gaming.
 

Do you think the people doing the death threats are dumb enough to leave the hashtag on? Give over, it's pretty clear that a tremendous amount of harassment is supported by Gamergate, but at just arms length to be deniable.

They released the IRC logs of them choosing to doxx Zoe and others, they people involved are named posters on the IRC channels and "namefags" on 8chan, including RogueStar and others.

You can't be claiming people who are a huge part of Gamergate, doxxing and making threats in Gamergate IRC channels and imageboards is not actually a part of Gamergate. It is, just not the public facing part.
 
Eron Gjoni's "zoe post" isn't really about conflicts of interest (or anything GamerGate actually claims to care about) at all. It's about him being emotionally abused and lied to by her for months.
You and others would know this if you'd actually read it.

I read that and it sounded like they should have broken up ages ago and -when they did break up temporarily- they should not have gotten back together. I wish more people had more self-respect in relationships. But certain mental issues like depression induced co-dependency can get in the way.
 
This whole aspect of it is odd, because at the time the only news story was "Small Indie Dev's ExBoyfriend Says She Cheated On Him." That's not exactly a headline you usually see spread all over gaming sites. People like InternetAristocrat added in all sorts of false allegations about corruption and sex for review scores, all stuff that didn't happen and there is no evidence of. He and others made it sound like there was a huge juicy scandal that journalists were all mysteriously ignoring! But it was literally a non-story. The story then became "a bunch of people on the internet spread lies that cause harassment of an innocent indie game developer" because of the actions of those youtubers and twitter folks.

That's why I said "allegations", I didn't believe a lot of what he said and I recognized bias but here's the reality: the press answers to the public, it serves the public interest and if the public becomes concerned regarding your outlet's ability to honestly serve their interests you need to respond to those concerns. I work in broadcast engineering, if there was so much public interest in how we handled our reporting at my station we would have responded. Our News department's director would have responded and he has in the past responded to such concerns about how we've handled our reporting.
 
He changed his story when stuff like the writing up of that indie reality show that went south turned out to be outside the date they were dating and so there was no conflict of interest.

And yeah, I have a cap of his tweet, but it's on my home PC so you'll have to wait.

For sure, link both.
 
I didn't care about the controversy at all until there were widespread refusals to discuss the matters on all major sites, a while back Erik Kain put together a hangouts with Greg Tito, John Bain, Janelle Bonanno and they discussed this exact thing. John Bain (Total Biscuit) described exactly what happened to me; legitimate press refused to respond to the allegations, they refused to cover it and explain themselves and those interested in that level of censorship were driven to the sources who were willing to cover it.

It was entirely inappropriate given the nature of the allegations. The refusal to allow discussion, the widespread censorship that occurred afterwards drove individuals to the sources who were willing to provide coverage. Those individuals didn't have the best journalistic practices but when you're the only game in town you inherently won't face the same level of scrutiny. I didn't watch the Five Guys video and take everything it said as gospel but I understand why it became as big as it did.

And this is perhaps the stupidest justification of them all.

The "Allegations" were debunked within three days. It wasn't even an allegation made in the gross post full of private information. The threads supposedly set up to discuss it quickly turned into disgusting slut-shaming at the very least, sites through which lies and slander were propagated pretty often, and homes for the organisation of directed attacks at worst.

The Games Media was not responsible for commenting on TMZ-level relationship drama. They were not obligated to acknowledge the flimsy smokescreen of journalistic ethics thrown up in front of vicious, disgusting, shameful harassment. The only site with any arguable obligation to comment on the situation was Kotaku, who did within three goddamn days.

2 months later what's the fucking excuse.
 
Eron Gjoni's "zoe post" isn't really about conflicts of interest (or anything GamerGate actually claims to care about) at all. It's about him being emotionally abused and lied to by her for months.

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That's why I said "allegations", I didn't believe a lot of what he said and I recognized bias but here's the reality: the press answers to the public, it serves the public interest and if the public becomes concerned regarding your outlet's ability to honestly serve their interests you need to respond to those concerns. I work in broadcast engineering, if there was so much public interest in how we handled our reporting at my station we would have responded. Our News department's director would have responded and he has in the past responded to such concerns about how we've handled our reporting.
The media did respond, all those articles denouncing the harassment were direct responses to all that stuff. The timeline is "non-story about an exboyfriend that isn't newsworthy" --> "a bunch of people harassing people because of lies made up about the non-story of the ex-boyfriend, and spreading the claim the media is ignoring an important story" --> "media responds by writing articles about how the allegations are false and denouncing all the harassment"
 
The media did respond, all those articles denouncing the harassment were direct responses to all that stuff. The timeline is "non-story about an exboyfriend that isn't newsworthy" --> "a bunch of people harassing people because of lies made up about the non-story of the ex-boyfriend, and spreading the claim the media is ignoring an important story" --> "media responds by writing articles about how the allegations are false and denouncing all the harassment"

I disagreed with how they responded, it was often blatantly inflammatory. Though I feel Kotaku's investigation into the Nathan Grayson allegations were largely reasonable. If you haven't yet I feel you should listen to the GamerGate hangout Erik Kain (Forbes), Janelle Bonanno (GameFront), John Bain (Total Biscuit) and Greg Tito (Escapist) put together. It's probably my favorite piece of coverage thus far and discussed just about every concern I have on the matter.
 
I see footage from games that are misrepresented sometimes and when this happens it frustrates me. I agree with the majority of her issues but sometimes I feel she misrepresents aspects of a game to deliver the point. as a gamer who has played many of these games, its frustrating.
I agree with you here. I actually dislike her videos. But GG makes me embarassed to be " a gamer". It is and has always been about hate. It makes me sad. Sure there are reasonable people but the tag is tainted. No matter how well your intentions are, using the GG hashtag destroys all credibility.
I guess it's good that good folks like you are amidst them so maybe somebody can talk reason into them, but I'd be ashamed to be associated with a movement mostly known for hate and trying to spread fear.
 
I'm not claiming there's no harrassment, there's harrassment aplenty and anyone still supporting GG today is either deluded or evil.
I'm claiming that what's in "the zoe post" makes it pretty clear that Zoe Quinn is an awful person. I'm claiming that Eron Gjoni is not a harrasser, and that he only wrote the post in the first place to raise awareness of what kind of a person Zoe Quinn is.
This has, however been ignored by everyone and will likely continue to be ignored by everyone for all time, and that's pretty sad.
 
The hashtag was created to spread a video about alleged misconduct between a game developer and a(t least one) journalist. Some stuff was debunked and some stuff wasn't but by the time the clarification on all that came out, GG had spread to a much wider scale. Just because it started out as being centered around sexual misconduxt doesn't mean that it's still centered around sexual misconduct.

As for Brianna Wu, do you have a link to the 8chan thread where it happened? Can you show me where GG people are the ones that did this? You realize that 8chan is anonymous and that ANYONE could have posted it there, right? I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt if you can show me where GG planned this out, though.
I'd like to remind you that the GG hashtag was used NOWHERE in the actual death threats that were sent to her.
How was GG responsible for that?

Firstly, all of it was debunked. Since you're pointing the bone, please post actual evidence of Zoe Quinn's malfeasance. Secondly, no I don't have a link because the thread was deleted after the information divulged in it lead to her being sent death threats. Here's an image of the thread with her details removed: http://i.imgur.com/bz82yZt.png

Now you're back to "gamergate is just a hashtag with pure and noble intentions, it did nothing wrong because you can't prove that it was an organised attack", which is honestly just pathetic really.
 
I'm claiming that what's in "the zoe post" makes it pretty clear that Zoe Quinn is an awful person. I'm claiming that Eron Gjoni is not a harrasser, and that he only wrote the post in the first place to raise awareness of what kind of a person Zoe Quinn is.

Well you're at odds with the justice system on this, who said it's very clearly harassment and have established a restraining order on him (which he continues to break).

Maybe have a read of this: http://idledillettante.wordpress.co...r-inability-to-stop-discussing-his-ex-online/
 
I'm not claiming there's no harrassment, there's harrassment aplenty and anyone still supporting GG today is either deluded or evil.
I'm claiming that what's in "the zoe post" makes it pretty clear that Zoe Quinn is an awful person. I'm claiming that Eron Gjoni is not a harrasser, and that he only wrote the post in the first place to raise awareness of what kind of a person Zoe Quinn is.
This has, however been ignored by everyone and will likely continue to be ignored by everyone for all time, and that's pretty sad.

Did he go into IRC chats and answer AMAs about her "just to raise awareness" ? Because in those chats were people saying some pretty awful things and he had to have known what he was doing by that point was going to end up with her getting a lot of abuse hurled her way.
 
He has consistently said that he was like the only person at the start of it all telling people not to harass her. People have said there are logs, I haven't seen them.

And this is perhaps the stupidest justification of them all.

The "Allegations" were debunked within three days. It wasn't even an allegation made in the gross post full of private information. The threads supposedly set up to discuss it quickly turned into disgusting slut-shaming at the very least, sites through which lies and slander were propagated pretty often, and homes for the organisation of directed attacks at worst.

The Games Media was not responsible for commenting on TMZ-level relationship drama. They were not obligated to acknowledge the flimsy smokescreen of journalistic ethics thrown up in front of vicious, disgusting, shameful harassment. The only site with any arguable obligation to comment on the situation was Kotaku, who did within three goddamn days.

2 months later what's the fucking excuse.


If the threads made to discuss it quickly turned into disgusting slut shaming then the moderation is to blame. Had information been made apparent with actual clarity in conjunction with stringent moderation, things wouldn't have gotten distorted and people wouldn't have had to look elsewhere for 'breaking developments' and the very thing people lament, that somehow gamer gate is still going after all these failed scandals, would not have happened. Do you know why this is? Because the failure state of the conspiracy theories and what have you would have been crystallized.

And if games media had the maturity to have simply made articles reporting on the harassment and denouncing it, instead of having inflammatory headlines, things wouldn't have blown up how they did.
 
If the threads made to discuss it quickly turned into disgusting slut shaming then the moderation is to blame. Had information been made apparent with actual clarity in conjunction with stringent moderation, things wouldn't have gotten distorted and people wouldn't have had to look elsewhere for 'breaking developments'.

We fucking tried, but it gets drowned out by the 100th person like those in here bringing up the same debunked arguments, saying "it's not actually about women", or that the victims "deserved the abuse", or complaining about the gaming medias ethics violations, which are simultaneously everywhere and impossible to find.

Maybe you shouldn't tie yourself to a movement that you haven't actually taken a critical look at or evaluated its claims?
 
The media did respond, all those articles denouncing the harassment were direct responses to all that stuff. The timeline is "non-story about an exboyfriend that isn't newsworthy" --> "a bunch of people harassing people because of lies made up about the non-story of the ex-boyfriend, and spreading the claim the media is ignoring an important story" --> "media responds by writing articles about how the allegations are false and denouncing all the harassment"

It has been a while since I posted in this thread, or about any of this. From the very beginning I have maintained that the only parts of the "story" that was any of our business was the stuff about The Fine Young Capitalists, and how Phil Fish bullied someone making a sexual harassment accusation. This is stuff that never got press coverage. No stories about them when they first happened or even now that I know of. Both of these things were related to video games. Instead we got a bunch of articles about how gamers are dead. This is why I originally supported gamergate, but there is no point to it now. Mean people said and did hurtful/disgusting things and can be connected to gamergate though anonymous posting and message logs so it is now deemed a campaign of hate. I honestly just wish this thread would stop popping back up to make me remember the situation.

Who anyone sleeps with is their own private business.
 
We fucking tried, but it gets drowned out by the 100th person like those in here bringing up the same debunked arguments, saying "it's not actually about women", or that the victims "deserved the abuse", or complaining about the gaming medias ethics violations, which are simultaneously everywhere and impossible to find.

Maybe you shouldn't tie yourself to a movement that you haven't actually taken a critical look at or evaluated its claims?

You call mass locking threads with no explanation, mass deleting threads and banning people on Reddit for discussing the appearance of nepotism trying? I call it a huge mistake. It wasn't trying, it was laziness. It so blatantly fed into the perceived narrative that assholes who wanted to harass people must have been jumping with joy. All I can think is that people who most had the ability to help contain and minimize the collateral damage of this severely underestimated what was going on.
 
You can mass locking threads with no explanation, mass deleting threads and banning people on Reddit for discussing the appearance of nepotism trying? I call it a huge fucking mistake.

I call trying to point out that the claims lacked any evidence trying to get the truth out there, but it couldn't be heard over the people railing against posting something in the wrong forum as "censorship" and championing something that supported their pre-existing views (gaming media is corrupt!)

I think acknowledging that you were in the wrong here and got caught up in something you didn't look into would require admitting a lack of critical thinking on your part, so you're attacking the situation as being "mishandled" to avoid recognising it.
 
You call mass locking threads with no explanation, mass deleting threads and banning people on Reddit for discussing the appearance of nepotism trying? I call it a huge mistake. It wasn't trying, it was laziness. It so blatantly fed into the perceived narrative that assholes who wanted to harass people must have been jumping with joy. All I can think is that people who most had the ability to help contain and minimize the collateral damage of this severely underestimated what was going on.

I will say that the mass deletions on reddit and 4chan were pretty weird. Especially 4chan, which typically doesn't really care about these sorts of things.
 
I disagree wtih you entirely.

Some people at SRS are awful. most are not. I read that website on the daily and I quite often agree the things they outline are pretty shitty things that were said.

Some poeple in GG are toxic. Most are not. I read their tweets daily and while a few things they say are pretty awful, the majority are making a pretty good fucking point.

Once you put on the blinders that "Gamergate is all about attacking women" then sure. you won't see it. If you're willing to actually LOOK WITH YOUR EYES, you'll see their point. I promise.

its the same point I've been making for SEVEN YEARS.

This industry needs to be reshaped and soon. Not just for women, not just for diverse people, not just for gaming journalists, but the entire thing needs an overhaul. If you can't agree with that you're not paying attention.
GamerGate is toxic as a movement. It is about attacking and harassing specific people and fighting against equality. That's pretty fucking terrible.

What I don't understand is how you support it. You say you're for equality (which again, GamerGate thinks shouldn't be discussed in the press. You say you want to fight corruption in the industry, but you sign contracts with companies assuring them you won't say anything negative about their games on your videos to thousands upon thousands of people in exchange for money?
 
I'm not claiming there's no harrassment, there's harrassment aplenty and anyone still supporting GG today is either deluded or evil.
I'm claiming that what's in "the zoe post" makes it pretty clear that Zoe Quinn is an awful person. I'm claiming that Eron Gjoni is not a harrasser, and that he only wrote the post in the first place to raise awareness of what kind of a person Zoe Quinn is.
This has, however been ignored by everyone and will likely continue to be ignored by everyone for all time, and that's pretty sad.

Even though he may have had the right intentions he unintentionally created a lot more problems with the way he handled the situation he was in. I really don't care about what he wrote because I'm having a hard time supporting him since I don't know everything about the whole story from both sides.
 
It has been a while since I posted in this thread, or about any of this. From the very beginning I have maintained that the only parts of the "story" that was any of our business was the stuff about The Fine Young Capitalists, and how Phil Fish bullied someone making a sexual harassment accusation. This is stuff that never got press coverage. No stories about them when they first happened or even now that I know of. Both of these things were related to video games. Instead we got a bunch of articles about how gamers are dead. This is why I originally supported gamergate, but there is no point to it now. Mean people said and did hurtful/disgusting things and can be connected to gamergate though anonymous posting and message logs so it is now deemed a campaign of hate. I honestly just wish this thread would stop popping back up to make me remember the situation.

Who anyone sleeps with is their own private business.

The only information we have about the Phil Fish thing is his, and a bunch of other people who actually know about the situation, telling that guy what he was doing was shitty. And guess what? Introducing more unconfirmable information that is inevitably going to lead to the ongoing abuse of someone getting noticeably worse is a shitty thing to do. We don't know anything about that situation and it's none of our business. Phil Fish called a guy out for adding fuel to the fire of a harassment campaign. That's not game news.

And TFYC? Here is I imagine the story you have in your head about what happened to them. . Why have people dismissed it? Because large portions of it are outright, since admitted lies. Lies he posted in a Reddit Thread that has since been deleted for promoting the harassment against Quinn. Stuff has since come out about the fact that the whole operation has a lot of shady elements, but even ignoring that for a second, again, adding fuel to the fire by provably, intentionally lying about a target of harassment is a fucking shitty thing to do, and he's a shitty person for doing it.

They weren't blacklisted, weren't DDoSd, arguably not doxxed (public facebook page linked). And yet they happily helped a harassment campaign along and have since profited immensely from it.

Things have shifted in my brain a little. This is now the worst reason I've heard for someone to have joined Gamergate.
 
I'm not claiming there's no harrassment, there's harrassment aplenty and anyone still supporting GG today is either deluded or evil.
I'm claiming that what's in "the zoe post" makes it pretty clear that Zoe Quinn is an awful person. I'm claiming that Eron Gjoni is not a harrasser, and that he only wrote the post in the first place to raise awareness of what kind of a person Zoe Quinn is.
This has, however been ignored by everyone and will likely continue to be ignored by everyone for all time, and that's pretty sad.

A lot of ex's are awful. There are more positive ways to nurture yourself after a breakup. Now he's got a restraining/gag order for being "that guy." :\
 
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