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[Fantastapotamus]

Total Biscuit definitely is with shit like this

https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/522292390061948928

How dramatic!

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The president of the united states would not go to Gaza right now to deliver a scheduled speech about peace, no matter how firmly he believes it to be important. His security would simply not let him.

Anita Sarkeesian is not the president. She doesn't have the world's best (although this is debatable right now for other reasons) security team guarding her. She does not want to get shot by people who hate her just as much.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Holy shit, you weren't joking. I peeked at that site and found gems like this:
http://www.returnofkings.com/45748/...-malala-yousafzai-is-a-coward-and-a-hypocrite
And of course, beauties like "5 Reasons Why Girls With Tattoos And Piercings Are Broken", "Women Never Grow Up, They Just Grow Old", "The Most Disgusting Thing A Slut Can Say" (hint: the answer is "I love you", apparently), "Unconditional Love From A Woman Is Impossible", and other assorted vitriolic misogynistic verbal diarrhea.

Pushing back women 60 years? Actually, I take that back. I disagree with you. I think men weren't nearly that misogynistic in the 50's.

Yeah, that site is disgusting. It was pretty much created to be a hybrid MRA and PUA site preaching the effective setting back of women so that "men can return" to dominance.

 

[Andrew J.]

If you truly think attacks are the best way to further gaming as an industry and a medium, then perhaps she *was* too nice.

To the extent that the article was an "attack", it was only directed towards those who have preeminently proved themselves deserving of one.

 

[Corto]

So when the Civil Rights movement occurred, was it not also in a civilized country with a state of laws?
Weren't there a lot of threats against places/supporters if they allowed MLK to talk at those events?

I don't see why you have to bring up talking freely without fear, history and modern events have shown us that it is a rare case if you want to bring in changes. Just look at Hong Kong right now.
I am not even talking about if she has the right or not, because she and everyone of us do.
You have the right, but you must know there might be a risk to it.
I know I won't go to someone's face, and tell them off.

I want to make sure, equality in gaming is a big issue right?
If it is a big issue and needed to be addressed due to its negative influence on society/pop culture, this is a good cause to stand up even with the fear of being in danger, correct?
I hope Anita truly believes in her ideology that she would be a figurehead for this movement then.
A lot of great civil rights leaders have risen up to the occasion to stand up for their belief.
Will Anita be one of them?

It's her choice. But I believe she will keep doing her work and making public appearances and talks. She was threatened before and that didn't stop her. In your opinion is that enough commitment to her belief or not?

 

[Son of Cervantes]

The marketers are the one that promote and pander to this image. Leigh was telling people that gamers are more than that. You missed the point so much.

It was a really poorly written article, you must admit. And I like Leigh Alexander's stuff.

 

[More_Badass]

This thread may interest you. I think its certainly worth more discussion than things in this one, honestly.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=134465834&highlight=#post134465834

Also more relevant as well.

Thanks for the link

 

[Galactic Fork]

It was a really poorly written article, you must admit. And I like Leigh Alexander's stuff.

How so? I felt it was pretty spot on.

 

[plagiarize]

So when the Civil Rights movement occurred, was it not also in a civilized country with a state of laws?
Weren't there a lot of threats against places/supporters if they allowed MLK to talk at those events?

I don't see why you have to bring up talking freely without fear, history and modern events have shown us that it is a rare case if you want to bring in changes. Just look at Hong Kong right now.
I am not even talking about if she has the right or not, because she and everyone of us do.
You have the right, but you must know there might be a risk to it.
I know I won't go to someone's face, and tell them off.

I want to make sure, equality in gaming is a big issue right?
If it is a big issue and needed to be addressed due to its negative influence on society/pop culture, this is a good cause to stand up even with the fear of being in danger, correct?
I hope Anita truly believes in her ideology that she would be a figurehead for this movement then.
A lot of great civil rights leaders have risen up to the occasion to stand up for their belief.
Will Anita be one of them?

Anita has stood up for her beliefs in light of death threats.

http://kotaku.com/bomb-threat-targeted-anita-sarkeesian-gaming-awards-la-1636032301

 

[NoCryingUntilTheEnd]

Total Biscuit definitely is with shit like this

https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/522292390061948928

I'm actually with TB on this one just because I'm not a fan of websites shitting on their readers. Still have a shitty taste in my mouth from the non-stop "gamers are entitled" articles that came about after Mass Effect 3, fucking hell. I mean yeah, obviously they weren't saying ALL gamers were entitled, but the headlines sure were.

 

[kiunchbb]

If there is a diversity and representation problem in golf along with pandering to an entitled demographic, then criticisms of marketing's role in that would be valid, too.

Then wouldn't it be more efficient to educate equality using the proven marketing term "gamer" instead of killing it, How else would you encourage equality in gaming without "gamer"? Put an ad in Angry Bird?

 

[Son of Cervantes]

How so? I felt it was pretty spot on.

It was needlessly reductive and inflammatory.

 

[Lime]

"don't denounce it, guys!"

 

[Fantastapotamus]

So when the Civil Rights movement occurred, was it not also in a civilized country with a state of laws?
Weren't there a lot of threats against places/supporters if they allowed MLK to talk at those events?

I don't see why you have to bring up talking freely without fear, history and modern events have shown us that it is a rare case if you want to bring in changes. Just look at Hong Kong right now.

Oh yeah, democracy and freedom for a country/region and the ending of the seperation of races are absolutely comparable to "less sexism in video games"

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I'm actually with TB on this one just because I'm not a fan of websites shitting on their readers. Still have a shitty taste in my mouth from the non-stop "gamers are entitled" articles that came about after Mass Effect 3, fucking hell. I mean yeah, obviously they weren't saying ALL gamers were entitled, but the headlines sure were.

I feel like the difference there is that the ME3 thing was some journalists standing up for developers' money and the Gamergate thing is some journalists (I am pretty sure not the same ones) standing up for human beings.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I like how gamergate is literally the reason we can't have a reasonable journalism thread on gaf anymore.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

I'm actually with TB on this one just because I'm not a fan of websites shitting on their readers. Still have a shitty taste in my mouth from the non-stop "gamers are entitled" articles that came about after Mass Effect 3, fucking hell. I mean yeah, obviously they weren't saying ALL gamers were entitled, but the headlines sure were.

Or the journalists and YouTubers who made fun of people complaining about Xbox One's DRM, saying nothing we did or said was going to change things, that we were just whiny, that this was the future, etc.

Remember, TotalBiscuit was one of those YouTubers.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I'm actually with TB on this one just because I'm not a fan of websites shitting on their readers.

What if I told you many of the people TB supports are taking a dump on an entire gender, a number of which compose his readership? Can his support not be considered insulting to his own viewers? I know I personally stopped following him because I wasn't going to listen to someone who supports a cause that is built on harassment and death threats.

 

[thequickandthedead]

Why does Adam Baldwin care so much about this movement?

 

[TheOohChild]

Really mind blowing that martyrdom is being discussed as a reasonable expectation for someone speaking out against sexism in video games.

 

[fedexpeon]

It's her choice. But I believe she will keep doing her work and making public appearances and talks. She was threatened before and that didn't stop her. In your opinion is that enough commitment to her belief or not?

Sure, that is enough. I just want see that she will have the commitment in the long run.
I want to see in 5-10yrs, how all of these events will go down.
I am more interested in the historical context, what kind of figurehead she will be, and what changes she will bring to this equality movement within the industry.

 

[Orayn]

Why does Adam Baldwin care so much about this movement?

Prime opportunity for conservative grandstanding, which is something he seems to enjoy very much.

Sure, that is enough. I just want see that she will have the commitment in the long run.
I want to see in 5-10yrs, how all of these events will go down.
I am more interested in the historical context and what kind of figurehead she will be and what changes she will bring to this equality movement within the industry.

Druckmann already cited her as an influence on The Last of Us, which seems like a game that will be remembered for quite a while.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Why does Adam Baldwin care so much about this movement?

My guess is he enjoys the attention and the back-pats gained from fellow sociopaths.

 

[plagiarize]

What if I told you many of the people TB supports are taking a dump on an entire gender, a number of which compose his readership? Can his support not be considered insulting to his own viewers? I know I personally stopped following him because I wasn't going to listen to someone who supports a cause that is built on harassment and death threats.

Then like me, you'd be one of the wolves in the metaphor. I guess. I mean, the journalists are the journalists doing the feeding right? So those of us pro equality/anti gamergate must be the wolves.

I guess?

Why does Adam Baldwin care so much about this movement?

Why does an antifeminist care so much about an antifeminist movement? Is that the question?

 

[Anton Sugar]

Holy shit, you weren't joking. I peeked at that site and found gems like this:
http://www.returnofkings.com/45748/...-malala-yousafzai-is-a-coward-and-a-hypocrite
And of course, beauties like "5 Reasons Why Girls With Tattoos And Piercings Are Broken", "Women Never Grow Up, They Just Grow Old", "The Most Disgusting Thing A Slut Can Say" (hint: the answer is "I love you", apparently), "Unconditional Love From A Woman Is Impossible", and other assorted vitriolic misogynistic verbal diarrhea.

Pushing back women 60 years? Actually, I take that back. I disagree with you. I think men weren't nearly that misogynistic in the 50's.


The fuck? No one wants to risk their lives over video games. That doesn't mean her words aren't worth saying. Jesus.

Wow. Just the fact that they are willing to be associated with or endorse that site, in any way...I mean.

Come on. Easy.

 

[NoCryingUntilTheEnd]

What if I told you many of the people TB supports are taking a dump on an entire gender, a number of which compose his readership? Can his support not be considered insulting to his own viewers? I know I personally stopped following him because I wasn't going to listen to someone who supports a cause that is built on harassment and death threats.

I didn't know that he supports GG. I just thought that he chose not to condemn GG.

 

[More_Badass]

I'm actually with TB on this one just because I'm not a fan of websites shitting on their readers. Still have a shitty taste in my mouth from the non-stop "gamers are entitled" articles that came about after Mass Effect 3, fucking hell. I mean yeah, obviously they weren't saying ALL gamers were entitled, but the headlines sure were.

Maybe so, but come on,

"When the dust settles, remember who it was that fed their own readership to the wolves. I will"

That tone and that message isn't helping de-escalate this whole situation
---

Wanted to clarify, who exactly are the "wolves" in that scenario?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Then wouldn't it be more efficient to educate equality using the proven marketing term "gamer" instead of killing it, How else would you encourage equality in gaming without "gamer"? Put an ad in Angry Bird?

You're relating too strongly to the word as it means to you rather than keeping it within the context she intended with her quotes. Also she doesn't want to "kill" it, she said "'gamers' are over."

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Why does Adam Baldwin care so much about this movement?

From his perspective: he thinks campaigning for changing anything or pointing out something is problematic is tantamount to censorship and he's going to stand up against it.

In reality: he's a hardcore conservative against gender diversity and, honestly, women aren't going to fight back.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I'm actually with TB on this one just because I'm not a fan of websites shitting on their readers. Still have a shitty taste in my mouth from the non-stop "gamers are entitled" articles that came about after Mass Effect 3, fucking hell. I mean yeah, obviously they weren't saying ALL gamers were entitled, but the headlines sure were.

If you don't like a website, don't listen to them.

If you don't like a headline, don't read the article.

The reason you have a shitty taste in your mouth is that you saw something, thought "This is shit" and then put it in your mouth.

 

[charlequin]

Holy shit, you weren't joking. I peeked at that site and found gems like this

Let's not give extremist communities of sociopathic misogynists more attention than we strictly need to, especially when they're pretty tangential to the overall topic.

 

[TommyT]

I like how gamergate is literally the reason we can't have a reasonable journalism thread on gaf anymore.

Maybe a dedicated catch-all thread; but there have been some others that have cropped up iirc. Something about Shadows for Mordor, the GMAs, and maybe a few others I've missed.

 

[Vlade]

Really mind blowing that martyrdom is being discussed as a reasonable expectation for someone speaking out against sexism in video games.

It certainly is a way to avoid continued talk that a shooting and bombing attack threat was issued for such a thing and make it about anita's shortcomings instead. insanity.

 

[plagiarize]

I didn't know that he supports GG. I just thought that he chose not to condemn GG.

He equated 'both sides'. Which was utter madness.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Then like me, you'd be one of the wolves in the metaphor. I guess. I mean, the journalists are the journalists doing the feeding right? So those of us pro equality/anti gamergate must be the wolves.

I guess?

What? My point is it's hypocritical of TB to say journalists are 'feeding their readers to wolves' while he is supporting a group that is rabidly attacking women. He has got to have women viewers/readers and his continued support of GG (by refusing to condemn it) is just helping guarantee an unfriendly environment for those women and their supporters.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Let's not give extremist communities of sociopathic misogynists more attention than we strictly need to, especially when they're pretty tangential to the overall topic.

You're right. Sorry. I reacted a bit too viscerally.

 

[Nanashrew]

I see I have missed quite a bit of this. I was without electricity for 14 days from a freak storm, so can anyone help to bring me up to speed?

 

[BlastProcessing]

Why does Adam Baldwin care so much about this movement?

So people will care about Adam Baldwin.

 

[outunderthestars]

It was a really poorly written article, you must admit. And I like Leigh Alexander's stuff.

I don't think it is. I think it works well as an intentially provocative editorial.

 

[NoCryingUntilTheEnd]

If you don't like a website, don't listen to them.

If you don't like a headline, don't read the article.

The reason you have a shitty taste in your mouth is that you saw something, thought "This is shit" and then put it in your mouth.

Well what if I want a gaming website without the shit? And at the time of the "gamer entitlement" thing, a lot of websites that were previously without shit were suddenly covered in shit.

EDIT: And to be clear, this does not apply to GG as I wouldn't boycott a website due to their opinion on the issue. So if this talk of "gamer entitlement" is off-topic, I'll drop it.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Wow. Just the fact that they are willing to be associated with or endorse that site, in any way...I mean.

Come on. Easy.

Oh man, this is great. This is just great. This has to be my new favourite website ever.
"Damn this little girl for not going back into a war torn country! How dare she!"

Let me repeat: after the Taliban shot her in the head, Malala opted to live in England. She ran away. They shot her in the head and she ran away

DAMN! They sure showed what a horrible person that 15 year old girl must be!
Let's repeat that again for me, okay?

 

[plagiarize]

What? My point is it's hypocritical of TB to say journalists are 'feeding their readers to wolves' while he is supporting a group that is rabidly attacking women. He has got to have women viewers/readers and his continued support of GG is just guaranteeing an unfriendly environment for those women and their supporters.

I think you misunderstood me.

If you told me that many of the people TB supports are taking a dump on an entire gender, then you would obviously be, like me, anti gamergate and disappointed in the stance that Total Biscuit took on this.

And in his metaphor, I think he's characterizing people like us as the 'wolves'.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Let's not give extremist communities of sociopathic misogynists more attention than we strictly need to, especially when they're pretty tangential to the overall topic.

I think it is fairly relevant, given that the Banned/Approved list of GG sites has been part of the discussion over the last few pages. Approving/endorsing/associating with a site of that ilk is pretty damning.

 

[jschreier]

I didn't know that he supports GG. I just thought that he chose not to condemn GG.

https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/520242699082145792

 

[NoblesseOblige]

And in his metaphor, I think he's characterizing people like us as the 'wolves'.

Oh, I see now. Yes I misunderstood you. I don't exactly know who 'the wolves' are in TB's metaphor. I think he's one of those people that think gamers are a persecuted group. So the 'wolves' is society at large.

 

[Corto]

Sure, that is enough. I just want see that she will have the commitment in the long run.
I want to see in 5-10yrs, how all of these events will go down.
I am more interested in the historical context, what kind of figurehead she will be, and what changes she will bring to this equality movement within the industry.

She is a media critic there's only so much she can do. The real actors of change are the developers.

 

[ICKE]

What? My point is it's hypocritical of TB to say journalists are 'feeding their readers to wolves' while he is supporting a group that is rabidly attacking women. He has got to have women viewers/readers and his continued support of GG (by refusing to condemn it) is just helping guarantee an unfriendly environment for those women and their supporters.

It's funny how character assassinations are allowed if the target is seen as regressive or as someone representing the wrong side. TB has been very careful with his words even though he can come across as arrogant at times. He has not attacked women and has spoken against extremist viewpoints but that doesn't stop people from throwing him under the bus.

You can call Baldwin a wide variety of names even on this forum but should someone do the same for progressive figureheads, your account is going bye-bye for some time. It is just a sign of both sides being isolated from one another and all the moderates are grouped with fringe loons. When something happens the rhetoric is always "GG people are just like this" or "the social justice warriors are all like that".

I bet people like TB hate these culture wars, because he has avoided politics in his videos but is getting dragged along now. Even small developers have spoken harshly against him even though he has done his best to support those companies in the past.

 

[TommyT]

I think it is fairly relevant, given that the Banned/Approved list of GG sites has been part of the discussion over the last few pages. Approving/endorsing/associating with a site of that ilk is pretty damning.

It's one thing to give an example on the list that has a pretty staunch stance on a topic; but it's another to start posting here examples and thoughts as to how extreme it is. As mentioned, while somewhat relevant, it's rather tangential and can lead to a more harm-than-good track for the topic.

 

[Essay]

I can't help but wonder how this whole movement will affect the similarly-named GamersGate, the client-free distribution service where I downloaded all my Paradox Interactive strategy games until Europa Universalis IV. Hopefully it just means more accidental hits, and in no way puts my library at risk somehow. >_>

Also, I just caught up with the Huffington Post interview with the 3 pro-GG figures, and I feel it's kind of unfortunate they weren't more experienced interviewees because I'm left more confused than I was before about why subjective, contextual games-criticism (or, as the interviewer framed it, "academic" criticism) is a negative. The one's ideal world of reviews sounded so boring and utilitarian---unreadable even. Maybe that's because I'm less of a general "gamer" than I am a "fighting gamer who enjoys reading inspired writing"??

 

[andymcc]

Well what if I want a gaming website without the shit? And at the time of the "gamer entitlement" thing, a lot of websites that were previously without shit were suddenly covered in shit.

EDIT: And to be clear, this does not apply to GG as I wouldn't boycott a website due to their opinion on the issue. So if this talk of "gamer entitlement" is off-topic, I'll drop it.

are you ok with the politicization of reviews? Talks of social issues in relation to games as features?