NCAA restores Paterno's vacated wins
- Thread starter mre
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And here it is.
Penn State had nothing to do with Sandusky! Never mind that they knew he was raping kids on campus and did nothing to stop it!
GameGuru59
Banned
And what were those implications specifically? Keep in mind, the justice system alone sent the message that if you harbor child rapists, multiple people in your institution will go to jail.
Did the students and alumni know? Did the players know? Is it just to punish them?
prag16
Banned
Yes. I'm sure that's it.
If that was an indisputable fact the way you frame it, then I'd agree with your stance on the situation.
GameGuru59
Banned
The employees and shareholders could file a civil lawsuit for their losses.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
the fact that penn state doesn't seem to teach what's right and wrong makes me think these people paid for a shitty education.
Dude, you're arguing for a guy and community who harbored and defended a child rapist. They and you are putting fucking football above children. There's no if ands or butts about it.
I've already explained it multiple times. Covering it up allowed them to avoid the negative publicity that would harm their ability to recruit top athletes and keep them competitive.
They aren't being punished. How does taking away wins in the record book hurt them? How does missing a bowl game hurt your average undergrad student at Penn State?
I thought you were done with this thread.
How many people would we need to come forward as witnesses to satisfy you? Would 100 be enough? 200?
GameGuru59
Banned
What's wrong is punishing a program and university out of vengeance.
hodayathink
Member
There is almost literally no way to punish the institution without punishing the players, fans, and alumni. It's collateral damage that cannot be avoided, and honestly shouldn't be something the NCAA is worried about.
And I've kind of ignored this, but I don't actually think this is why they covered it up. IIRC, by the time the assistant reported what he saw, Sandusky wasn't on JoePa's staff anymore. There wouldn't have been enough of a publicity/recruiting blowback to actually significantly harm them. Hell, look at the coaches of Louisville basketball and football (Rick Petino and Bobby Petrino) if you want an idea of how little off-the-field matters with coaches can/do affect their ability to recruit and stay successful. Paterno, more than likely, covered it up/turned a blind eye because of some misguided loyalty to/friendship with Sandusky, not because of a nebulous possible affect on the program.
Amory
Member
The fact that Penn State is negotiating to get these wins back is just further proof that they didn't really give a shit that any of this happened on their campus so long as its effect on their football program was minimal.
It takes some serious balls to even ask for the fucking wins back. Bunch of brainwashed weirdos.
It takes some serious balls to even ask for the fucking wins back. Bunch of brainwashed weirdos.
Eighty Deuce
Banned
smokeandmirrors
Banned
The fact that you posted this:
without a single hint of irony means it's not worth talking to you at all.
The university will get along just fine. Imagine they'd go back to focusing on education. It's not like they sanctioned the educational side.
Is that the word around Happy Valley?
Unless you can reason otherwise, it is. You have dedicated your posts to gloating without substance.
prag16
Banned
As I said in my first post in this topic, that's a slanted and reductionist take on a complicated and still-unresolved situation.
Accusing me personally of thinking football is more important than children being raped is a pretty serious charge.
GameGuru59
Banned
There's no way to determine what games would have been won retroactively. As I said previously.
It hurts them by having less money for their extracurricular sports outside of football. And (if the program was profitable) it hurts them by having less money for capital projects, which football programs are often used to pay for.
metalslimer
Member
It's a fucking cult. They still want a fucking statue back to honor that piece of shit.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
the Cult of Penn State is a real and terrifying thing.
prag16
Banned
Gloating? Accusing me of personally approving of child rape is a pretty serious charge. Didn't think that was the level of discourse around here.
Wars happens because of the actions of one leader all the time.
1. Do you believe Joe Paterno had any knowledge of Jerry Sandusky's actions? (Y/N)
If No,
2. Do you believe Joe Paterno had any control over his football program? (Y/N)
If No,
3. Do you support child rape? (Y)
LINK
Paterno apologists like to hinge there beliefs on the fact that we don't have enough evidence to indict him in a cover up on 1 and 3 above. Unfortunately any evidence is likely destroyed. Although I find highly fucking suspicious that Curley decided to hold off after giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe.
Regardless of the fact that we can't directly link Paterno with malicious cover up we do know that he basically turned the other cheek after reporting it and through utter incompetence decided to supposedly not follow up on it. This still warrants all of the punishment that has come down on Penn State if not more.
Joe Paterno under OATH said that McQueary's story involved fondling and was of sexual nature. The fact that people are trying to absolve him of any responsibility is in fact disgusting. Did Paterno not think it was fucking suspicious that nothing happened or that Sandusky was still coming on to campus after someone saw him all by himself with a kid doing things of sexual nature? Paterno was the most powerful man on campus at Penn State. Hands down nobody was more powerful than him even if he had "superiors". The fact that there is such a cult after his death trying to absolve him of responsibility only proves this.
Paterno apologists like to hinge there beliefs on the fact that we don't have enough evidence to indict him in a cover up on 1 and 3 above. Unfortunately any evidence is likely destroyed. Although I find highly fucking suspicious that Curley decided to hold off after giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe.
Regardless of the fact that we can't directly link Paterno with malicious cover up we do know that he basically turned the other cheek after reporting it and through utter incompetence decided to supposedly not follow up on it. This still warrants all of the punishment that has come down on Penn State if not more.
GameGuru59
Banned
The institution should not be punished because an institution cannot commit a crime.
And that is unjust. Which is why just countries distribute the responsibility of going to war amongst the entire body of the nation.
I have heard people claim that Paterno wasn't as involved with the cover up as most people suspect and the report indicates, and I have heard people argue the details ad nauseum, but outside of a red faced drunk Penn fan yelling at a camera I have never heard any reasonable person deny there was a coverup, period.
Sandusky was shielded and his acts covered up to protect the reputation and ongoing activities of the football program. There is no reasonable doubt of that at all.
And the lines drawn to the officials inside and outside of the college are hardly paranoid delusion.
anyway I thought you were leaving?
And that's why you vacate al the wins. You don't know how many wins occurred without rectifying the fact that a child rapist was harbored on campus, insulated from punishment in the name of protecting the football program.
The fact that the football program subsidizes other important functions of the university only furthers the point that the program is too powerful. It is "too big to fail."
Turning in a child rapist could impact those programs. The men in charge of those programs are deified. This makes it more difficult to turn them in when they do wrong. Everyone saw Sandusky as a saint in the community.
That means nothing. There's no way to determine whether games would have been won after vacating wins due to academic/amateurism ineligibility either, but the wins are still vacated. They were winning those games while having a competitive advantage, that's the point.
How many undergrads actually participate in those sports? Not many.
The point is to punish the program, because the program is the reason this stuff continued to go on.
If only Penn State took children being raped as seriously.
metalslimer
Member
They deserved the death penalty if anyone ever did. The fact that there were large marches at the school in support of that piece of shit tells me I don't really care that losing a football program affected anyone there. Penn State alumni should be thanking their god Joe Paterno that the NCAA went as light as they did.
Germany after WWII. Read your history book.
Edit: Maybe I read your post wrong, but institutions are the closest thing there is to states.
Then how about you actually add something to the conversation other than talking about this mythical complicated situation. Im still waiting for an explanation on your witness shaming.
Prinz Eugn
Member
Don't worry, they made us do several hours of "mandatory reporter training" just as grad students in a completely non-sportsball program (which happens to be one of the best in my field, which is why I am here).
The scandal/football cult was something I was obviously aware of coming in from out of state, but the HONOR JOE signs everywhere are still ridic.
prag16
Banned
I'm not arguing there was no cover up.
And you're right. I should have left. I speculated that there was nothing to be gained, and that was true, other than gaining some "child abuse supporter" points.
This time I'm really out.
How's weather in fantasy land?
So I felt compelled to look it up...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Orange_Bowl
So the championship games they won just have "no winner." It woulda been neat if they retroactively just gave Florida a decade-old Orange bowl win. But that wouldn't really make sense.
Anyone who is familiar with the NCAA knows they'll reinstate these wins. It was just child rape, it's not like a black kid accepted some free clothes! That you could never forgive!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Orange_Bowl
So the championship games they won just have "no winner." It woulda been neat if they retroactively just gave Florida a decade-old Orange bowl win. But that wouldn't really make sense.
Anyone who is familiar with the NCAA knows they'll reinstate these wins. It was just child rape, it's not like a black kid accepted some free clothes! That you could never forgive!
Alcibiades
Member
As a non-Penn State alum (though I had been a fan of both Penn State and Paterno before this whole scandal, and hope James Franklin makes the program competitive again), McQueary comes off as having some screw loose.
His original story was that he saw Sandunsky showing with a boy with "possible" sexual sounds, but that he hadn't actually seen anything. Paterno says McQueary saw "fondling" while others report McQueary saw "horseplaying."
10 years later he changes his story and says he saw full-on rape and that that is what he reported.
He also was caught lying about stopping the incident and reporting it to the police. And he sued the university when the new coach after Paterno didn't hire him. Really, would anyone want someone that that kind of baggage coaching in the post-Paterno era at Penn State?
The inconsistencies shouldn't stop his experience from being used as one basis for finding the truth, but one should weigh what he is saying against his credibility.
EDIT: BTW I am in complete agreement with Sandunsky going away for life and criminal investigations into Penn State administrators and their roles in the scandal. I basically want as many clear facts and testimony and it sucks when things get muddied at all.
Glad you're coming around.
So then why on earth do you think the program that covered up a child rshould have the wins that happened during that period, reinstated? They are BEYOND tainted. This isn't some roids scandal. Or a free car. Both of those things could vacate wins too.
This is the rape of a child and its subsequent coverup, to save and benefit a football program.
GameGuru59
Banned
It went on because individuas harbored a child rapist. Those who were found guilty of that crime have been punished.
OrlanisWorks
Banned
Paterno is dead and that's good enough for me. What I really care about is whether or not people understand what he did was not only stupid, but immoral. I'll just pull a Paterno on his football career. Would be stupid to give him back some of guys legacy, but I can't really give a drop of piss about some numbers next to his name. He's dead and the perpetrator is imprisoned, so I'm fairly happy.
perfectchaos007
Member
I guess that means they are going to restore Penn State's 1999 Alamo Bowl win where Jerry Sandusky was accused and convicted of sexual misconduct with a minor?
You really started this thread off with a bang through witness shaming and character assassination of McQueary. Im just curious. Do you think that those little boys had it coming also? Maybe they should't have taunted sandusky with their naked bodies? Frankly your entire attitude is absolutely disgusting and you absolutely gained "child abuse supporter" points. Especially since you can seem to actually put into words why were all wrong and why you are witness shaming McQueary.
And that punishment is now apparently going to get repealed.
Yep.
perfectchaos007
Member
The statue will come back right away if all of Paternos wins are restored. As far as history will be concerned, nothing bad happened during the Sandusky years.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
The whole reason this was covered up in the first place is that people came to value a football program over children being molested. People do need to learn to let go of these legacy stats, and they're not going to do it if they get what they want over outrage of lost football prestige over outrage of a sick cover-up to protect that football prestige.
Nations literally punish each other over the actions of their leaders on a daily basis. So to answer that dude's question. Yes, yes we do.
This isn't necessary. We know why people are arguing over this, they're giving their reasons. And you know that it isn't because they're pro rape.
Disappointed GAF. Dogpiling someone with the "child rape apologist" remarks. He believes what he has read. Disagree and try to inform, but don't just lump him in with Sandusky.
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