If you wouldn't date transgender people, where do you begin to regard their gender?

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No, some things are not emulated. Male can lactate. Some things are emulated, like a constructed vagina. It's not a vagina. It's one that's been constructed. We should all know that an embryo develop identically for both sexes for a while, however, once the development has happened, you can't just invert the penis and force me to call it "a real vagina". Where the line's drawn? Far away from being born of the male sex and modifying it to emulate the female sex. Technicalities there don't matter.

If you wish to make things black and white and appeal to "biology"/some universal truth, then yes, technicalities do matter. If you're using genitals to determine sex then it would seem that many people born with forms of intersex genitals would not qualify as either a man or a woman. If that's the road you really wish to go down then say so.
 
I'm trying to read this thread and getting very confused. Everyone is talking about situations involving "a transgender" and I have no idea what that means. Isn't that as specific as saying "a gender" in the same context? I mean, saying "I think a transgender should be allowed to use the woman's restroom" is confusing to me, because should you distinguish between a trans male and a trans female in this context?

I dunno. I'm afraid I'm making some big mistake here with the nomenclature, so could someone set me straight before I upset someone?
 

Nafai1123

Banned
I'm well aware what happens, but that doesn't answer the question of what it means to be "biologically male/female".

Huh? Of course it does. That's like saying the genetic, anatomical and physiological makeup of a dog doesn't answer the question of what it means to be biologically a dog. It is the very definition of what it is.
 
This has been a very enlightening and interesting thread.

I personally think there is a distinction between a cis person and a trans person. I mean, that's why there are the two terms. And I would not date a trans woman. Many others in this thread feel the same way.

And upon thinking about why I wouldn't date a trans woman, a lot of it comes from the fact that I can't get over the physical/biological aspect of it. Even with all the surgery and hormone treatments I just don't think I could do it. And I feel a little ashamed of that. I definitely know that there are trans people that would be hurt by that.

Is this preference something I was born with, like heterosexuality? Or was it ingrained by society? Can I do anything to change this? Should I?

If technology evolved to the point to where a trans woman could move their minds into a cloned female body, would I date them? I think...yes? I also have a hangup with piercing/surgery, so maybe that contributes to it?

These are all questions this thread has made me ponder.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Wow. No. I am showing you another sexual preference I have. I am not homosexual. I will never have sex with a man. That not prejudice. I am, at the same time, also never going to have sex with a transgender, no matter which way around it's been changed. That is also not prejudice, but my preference. You said that if I'm not open to dating a transgender, I'm prejudice. I amn't.

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying your sexuality (and by extension, all sexuality) is a preference?

Or do you mean your sexuality is so finely tuned that your boner will die the moment it detects a Y chromosome in your partner?

I also do view my sexuality to pertain to the sex, and not to the gender. I am not interested in having sex with someone whose sex is male, no matter how modified or made to look like a woman it is. It's sad that you spread vitrol instead of understanding. Disregarding my comment because you misinterpret it, then try to invalidate the whole thing on that basis is weak.
Vitriol is some of the other stuff being posted in this thread. I tried to keep a neutral tone as possible but apparently even that is too hostile.
 
I'm trying to read this thread and getting very confused. Everyone is talking about situations involving "a transgender" and I have no idea what that means. Isn't that as specific as saying "a gender" in the same context? I mean, saying "I think a transgender should be allowed to use the woman's restroom" is confusing to me, because should you distinguish between a trans male and a trans female in this context?

I dunno. I'm afraid I'm making some big mistake here with the nomenclature, so could someone set me straight before I upset someone?

I think MTF (male to female) and FTM (female to male) are the most PC terms to use. At least that's what I've been using in my posts.
 

Septimius

Junior Member
I'm a bit confused. Are you saying your sexuality (and by extension, all sexuality) is a preference? And that gay men simply prefer to date other men?

Or do you mean your sexuality is so finely tuned that your boner will die the moment it detects a Y chromosome in your partner?

Holy fuck, what. You spouted bullshit about prejudice vs preference. I am putting it on those terms to make it clear to you. I am not interested in dating men. That's not prejudice. I am not interested in dating transgenders. That's not prejudice, either.
 
And how would you believe ?

We had a member that got back from the exact surgeon a few months ago ... if you want I can ask her to come explain to you in details ... but I doubt she will prove you with pictures =P
I do not know you nor her, but I suspect you both have too much bias in this matter, enough to make you believe things that aren't true, just because you want them to be true.

your thought process seems to be. transgender people are the gender they identify with, so therefore everything else most fit, transitions are perfect and anyone who disagrees is a bigot

Mostly of places that post it are doctor sites ... and they only take pictures when the person is there to see if everything ok .... they don't come back when they are sure that everything is ok =P
I was not going to ask you for proof, but seems you wouldn't be able to provide anyway.

This argument is and will become increasingly disingenuous as society divorces romance and sexual companionship from reproduction. Unless you date exclusively to find a life partner to propagate your genes, then that makes you an exception.

it is far more disingenuous to pretend they are not related
 

Mumei

Member
Heterosexuality is not a social construct, it is the cornerstone of reproduction and the continuation of the species, it is the normative that has driven human evolution.

... Sure, it is. How exactly you define heterosexuality is certainly a social construct. This is why it is so difficult to define heterosexuality (and homosexuality) consistently in studies. Of course, heterosexual sex is necessary to propagate the species, but that doesn't say anything about whether heterosexuality as a discrete identity is a social construct or not.

You should read George Chauncey's Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the Making of the Gay Male World, 1890-1940:

This book argues that in important respects the hetero-homosexual binarism, the sexual regime now hegemonic in American culture, is a stunningly recent creation. Particularly in working-class culture, homosexual behavior per se became the primary basis for the labeling and self-identification of men as "queer" only around the middle of the twentieth century; before then, most men were so labeled only if they displayed a much broader inversion of their ascribed gender status by assuming the sexual and other cultural roles ascribed to women. The abnormality (or "queerness") of the "fairy," that is, was defined as much by his "woman-like" character or "effeminacy" as his solicitations of male sexual partners; the "man" who responded to his solicitations - no matter how often - was not considered abnormal, a "homosexual," so long as he abided by masculine gender conventions. Indeed, the centrality of effeminacy to the representation of the "fairy" allowed many conventionally masculine men, especially unmarried men living in sex-segregated immigrant communities, to engage in extensive sexual activity with other men without risking stigmatization and the loss of their status as "normal men."

[...]

Heterosexuality had not become a precondition of gender normativity in early-twentieth-century working-class culture. Men had to be many things in order to achieve the status of "normal" men, but being "heterosexual" was not one of them.

[...]

In a culture in which becoming a fairy meant assuming the status of a woman or even a prostitute, many men, like the clerk, simply refused to do so. Some of them restricted themselves to the role of "trade," becoming the nominally "normal" partners of "queers" (although this did not account for most such men). Many others simply "did it," without naming it, freed from having to label themselves by the certainty that, at least, they were not fairies. But many men aware of sexual desires for other men, like the clerk, struggled to forge an alternative identity and cultural stance, one that would distinguish them from fairies and "normal" men alike. Even their efforts, however, were profoundly shaped by the cultural presumption that sexual desire for men was inherently a feminine desire. That presumption made the identity they sought to construct a queer one indeed: unwilling to become virtual women, they sought to remain men who nonetheless loved other men.

The efforts of such men marked the growing differentiation and isolation of sexuality from gender in middle-class American culture. Whereas fairies' desire for men was thought to follow inevitably from their gender persona, queers maintained that their desire for men revealed only their "sexuality" (their "homosexuality), a distinct domain of personality independent of gender. Their homosexuality, they argued, revealed nothing abnormal in their gender persona. The effort to forge a new kind of homosexual identity was predominantly a middle-class phenomenon, and the emergence of "homosexuals" in middle-class culture was inextricably linked to the emergence of "heterosexuals" in that culture as well. If many working men thought they demonstrated sexual virility by playing the "man's part" in sexual encounters with either women or men, normal middle-class men increasingly believed that their virility depended on their exclusive sexual interest in women. Even as queer men began to define their difference from other men on the basis of their homosexuality, "normal" men began to define their difference from queers on the basis of their renunciation of any sentiments or behavior that might be marked as homosexual. Only when they did so did "normal men" become "heterosexual men." As Jonathan Katz has suggested, heterosexuality was an invention of the late nineteenth century. The "heterosexual" and "homosexual" emerged in tandem at the turn of the century as powerful new ways of conceptualizing human sexual practices."​

In short, "heterosexuality" becoming a part of the definition of "normal" manhood and masculinity being defined in part as the exclusive interest in women and not men is something that was only really codified by the late 1930s and early 1940s. Before this, the dichotomy was between "normal men" and "fairies", and normal men could have sex with men as long as they played the "proper" role.
 
And again, stop trying to split hairs. This lies far away of any medical technicality about ketotype and chromosomes.

I'm not splitting hairs. I'm asking people to stop waiving their arms around going "Male and female (in regards to sex) are different!" and seemingly implying which is which is clear without offering a clear definition of each that isn't tautological .

Huh? Of course it does. That's like saying the genetic, anatomical and physiological makeup of a dog doesn't answer the question of what it means to be biologically a dog. It is the very definition of what it is.

And what happens if those three things don't agree (going back to gender rather than dogs)?
 

Septimius

Junior Member
I'm not splitting hairs. I'm asking people to stop waiving their arms around going "Male and female (in regards to sex) are different!" and seemingly implying which is which is clear without offering a clear definition of each that isn't tautological

Then reply to my post from before.
 

Acinixys

Member
This has been a very enlightening and interesting thread.

I personally think there is a distinction between a cis person and a trans person. I mean, that's why there are the two terms. And I would not date a trans woman. Many others in this thread feel the same way.

And upon thinking about why I wouldn't date a trans woman, a lot of it comes from the fact that I can't get over the physical/biological aspect of it. Even with all the surgery and hormone treatments I just don't think I could do it. And I feel a little ashamed of that. I definitely know that there are trans people that would be hurt by that.

Is this preference something I was born with, like heterosexuality? Or was it ingrained by society? Can I do anything to change this? Should I?

If technology evolved to the point to where a trans woman could move their minds into a cloned female body, would I date them? I think...yes? I also have a hangup with piercing/surgery, so maybe that contributes to it?

These are all questions this thread has made me ponder.

I feel the same
 

Van Owen

Banned
I think you've been misinformed about post-vaginoplasty dilation. The stent is removed a few days after the major surgery, and while dilation in the early weeks is done frequently, it can be slowed to the rate of once a month after some time has passed.

Sure sounds indistinguishable from a real vagina to me...
 
I'm trying to read this thread and getting very confused. Everyone is talking about situations involving "a transgender" and I have no idea what that means. Isn't that as specific as saying "a gender" in the same context? I mean, saying "I think a transgender should be allowed to use the woman's restroom" is confusing to me, because should you distinguish between a trans male and a trans female in this context?

I dunno. I'm afraid I'm making some big mistake here with the nomenclature, so could someone set me straight before I upset someone?

I think MTF (male to female) and FTM (female to male) are the most PC terms to use. At least that's what I've been using in my posts.

Trans person, trans woman, and trans man are the most widely accepted (in the trans community) terms for referring to someone that is trans, someone that was assigned not-female and IDs as female, and someone that was assigned not-male and IDs and male, respectively.
 
I'm trying to read this thread and getting very confused. Everyone is talking about situations involving "a transgender" and I have no idea what that means. Isn't that as specific as saying "a gender" in the same context? I mean, saying "I think a transgender should be allowed to use the woman's restroom" is confusing to me, because should you distinguish between a trans male and a trans female in this context?

I dunno. I'm afraid I'm making some big mistake here with the nomenclature, so could someone set me straight before I upset someone?

a transgender = a person who is transgender, that does not identify with the sexual gender they were born with, i.e. "a man in a woman's body"
 

Septimius

Junior Member
A constructed vagina does not have a uterus on top of it, so the whole thing stops a bit before where you'd expect a uterus to be. You'd probably only notice this if you had a sex toy capable of going right into the uterus, or were exceptionally well-endowed.

If someone penetrated a woman's uterine opening, she'd be in debilitating pain for a week. It's also impossible. Luckily. Even 'bottoming' a girl, which means pushing towards the uterine opening is extremely painful. So, yeah, this is not a concern.

You're also advocating this "stop being so picky about it"-attitude that doesn't help the issue. We have to learn to accept that transgenders identify with the gender opposing to their born biological sex, and that they can go through operations that have them emulate the opposite sex. Advocating that their surgeries somehow make a real woman, biologically, shows issues of distinguishing gender and sex.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Holy fuck, what. You spouted bullshit about prejudice vs preference. I am putting it on those terms to make it clear to you. I am not interested in dating men. That's not prejudice. I am not interested in dating transgenders. That's not prejudice, either.

Question, would you date a F2M trans? Assuming that there's still attraction there, both physically and emotionally.

Would your answer change depending on pre-op and post-op?
 
I think MTF (male to female) and FTM (female to male) are the most PC terms to use. At least that's what I've been using in my posts.

Trans person, trans woman, and trans man are the most widely accepted (in the trans community) terms for referring to someone that is trans, someone that was assigned not-female and IDs as female, and someone that was assigned not-male and IDs and male, respectively.

a transgender = a person who is transgender, that does not identify with the sexual gender they were born with, i.e. "a man in a woman's body"

Thanks for the answers, folks. As far as I can tell, I think I was getting confused because it seems like a lot of posters early in the thread were using "a transgender" when what they were trying to say was "trans woman."
 

Nekofrog

Banned
A bit off topic I think, but how are men who strictly date pre-op transgender women viewed in the LGBT community?

I don't think they would be viewed as anything but something to date.

There are a lot of transgendered individuals who have no intention of getting reassignment surgery; they don't see it as the single defining trait of their femininity.
 

LFG

Neophyte
I consider myself to be a straight male. I've only dated women, absolutely no interest in being with a man. That said, I'm not against dating someone who is transgendered. If I'm attracted to a person, then I will give them a chance. Why not?
 

Griss

Member
If you wish to make things black and white and appeal to "biology"/some universal truth, then yes, technicalities do matter. If you're using genitals to determine sex then it would seem that many people born with forms of intersex genitals would not qualify as either a man or a woman. If that's the road you really wish to go down then say so.

When it comes to sex rather than gender I absolutely do see three categories:
-Biological male
-Biological female
-Intersex

Any of those three categories can be either a man or a woman, because gender is free from sex, and is a form of personal identity. It's great that as a society we've progressed to that enlightened stage.

In terms of sexual preference, I only want to sleep with biological females, though I might consider an intersex partner if I had all the details about their particular condition and my arousal remained (which would mean a natural vagina + uterus + breasts etc). I think this is the point so many people are making and it's really not that hard to understand.

Question, would you date a F2M trans? Assuming that there's still attraction there, both physically and emotionally.

Would your answer change depending on pre-op and post-op?

This is the thing. I'd sleep with a pre-op F2M trans despite not being gay because the body is female, you know? And it's the body, above all, that turns me on. Now, I can't imagine the situation ever arising, but yeah I would. I'd sleep with a man if he was F2M pre-op.
 

Septimius

Junior Member
Question, would you date a F2M trans? Assuming that there's still attraction there, both physically and emotionally.

Would your answer change depending on pre-op and post-op?

I won't play to your questions, because I've destroyed your initial point, but you insist on moving the goal posts. Your argument sucked.

Which one?

This:

No, some things are not emulated. Male can lactate. Some things are emulated, like a constructed vagina. It's not a vagina. It's one that's been constructed. We should all know that an embryo develop identically for both sexes for a while, however, once the development has happened, you can't just invert the penis and force me to call it "a real vagina". Where the line's drawn? Far away from being born of the male sex and modifying it to emulate the female sex. Technicalities there don't matter.
 

Nafai1123

Banned
I'm not splitting hairs. I'm asking people to stop waiving their arms around going "Male and female (in regards to sex) are different!" and seemingly implying which is which is clear without offering a clear definition of each that isn't tautological .



And what happens if those three things don't agree (going back to gender rather than dogs)?

Then you're looking at an example of genetic mutation. If you gave us an example of the point you're trying to prove it would be much more useful than just continuing to ask the same question over and over again.

Sex (not sexuality) IS defined biologically. Gender identity or any other social construct of gender is not.
 
I won't play to your questions, because I've destroyed your initial point, but you insist on moving the goal posts. Your argument sucked.



This:

And my response to that was to ask if birth genitals are how you intended to define sex and if, therefore, intersex conditions can result in someone neither male nor female.

Then you're looking at an example of genetic mutation. If you gave us an example of the point you're trying to prove it would be much more useful than just continuing to ask the same question over and over again.

Sex (not sexuality) IS defined biologically. Gender identity or any other social construct of gender is not.

I don't care what it's caused by, I'm asking how you determine sex in that situation.
 
Sorry, didn't read all the replies in the thread, but is there such a thing as being born with no sexual organs? It's not something I feel comfortable googling.
 
@septimus, would you date a biological woman if she was born without a vagina (or it was destroyed somehow) and she had to have a new one medically constructed for her?
 

wildfire

Banned
I wish people would try harder than simply accepting that you can't argue with taste. I mean clearly that is ripe for malicious abuse, and it's impossible to discern whether it actually contributes to the heart of the matter, which is having one's "preferences" biased against transgenders because of innate negative discriminatory feelings towards them. One would hope those who find themselves somehow in the position of not feeling attracted to transgenders (or who would otherwise not involve themselves romantically with them) while also not harboring any ill feelings towards them would try a bit harder to discern how exactly that equilibrium exists. Then again maybe i just haven't read enough of the thread.

Worse still is the opinion that it's fine and dandy just to ensure that transgenders don't face transgressions of inalienable rights while so much potential disguised bigotry seems to ferment just underneath the surface... which would nevertheless affect them in fundamental ways.

You are one of the few who sees the contradictory nature I'm referring to.

I'm not willing to accept my stance as bigotry but if I don't fully acknowledge a trans person as male or female when it comes to sex then I'm being disingenuous about how society should treat them. Based on responses in this that's that case for some posters here but they are unable to see it because personal rights only extends to what they are comfortable with and not what other people are uncomfortable with. Those people just have to deal with it because those people should be progressive even though they themselves aren't as progressive as they see themselves as.


It sounds like (but maybe I'm wrong, I haven't read the rest of the thread) your whole idea of gender is still pretty old school, and thats the root of the problem, or at least it was for me. But once you stop caring about genetics or baseline physical attributes, things get much clearer. Its all in the head really, its about how they feel and act, not what they look like. I have no issue looking at a woman with a dick and still calling her a woman now. So if I was female, it would seem pretty normal a concept to share a bathroom with them. I certainly don't see any issue with the other way around, sharing a bathroom with a transgendered man. They are a man, its a public space for men, there is no issue for me.

Nah. I have to point out that I keep in mind that I'm dating women to potentially marry them, more often than my peers. Since I look that far ahead I'm not interested in anyone where to conceive I need a 3rd party. There is a second factor but I'm not interested in sharing too much of my sexual psychology.

That's XXY, isn't it? I don't think medical peculiarities meld well with this discussion. You're gonna create a bigger dichotomy by trying to 'trick it' into being the way you think it should be.

Maybe you are right that it is mistake and I'm making assumptions about how well we would be able to separate sex from gender.
 
I won't play to your questions, because I've destroyed your initial point, but you insist on moving the goal posts. Your argument sucked.

His argument sucked? Do you really think your equivalence of having no attraction to men and having no attraction to transgenders was anything but ripe for misunderstandings?
 

Despera

Banned
I don't think they would be viewed as anything but something to date.

There are a lot of transgendered individuals who have no intention of getting reassignment surgery; they don't see it as the single defining trait of their femininity.
Seems like the obvious answer... yet I remember reading somehwere years ago that it was fowned upon in the community since men who are attracted to pre-op trans women are perceived as frustrated/closeted individuals in denial of their real sexual orientation.
 

Takuan

Member
(or it was destroyed somehow)

Why do you think so many men are turned off by black-on-white interracial porn? Even the knowledge that a girl used to bang a black dude is enough to turn a man off completely from her.

There's a thread relevant to this, but I don't care to link it.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I could think I would ever date someone that's biologically a woman, but identifies as a man. This is the one that's least definite. Sex female, gender male. I wouldn't date someone that's a man that identifies as a woman. Sex male, gender female. I wouldn't date someone that's undergone surgery to emulate the opposing sex, either. Those last are definite.
When I wrote my post, it was with the assumption that when you (general "you", not specific) look at someone who is M2F, you see them as F first, and then M. This is more or less what the OP is talking about: "What is the limit that you see transgenders as their transitioned gender?"

As this thread has shown, most people draw the boundary at dating.

But you say you would date a F2M transgender, which is strange, to me, because the appropriate thing, to do in that case would be to treat them as a male. As far as I can tell, you have a sexual objection to biological males, no matter how they're "presenting". That is what heterosexuality means to you. And I acknowledged as much here, albeit in less specific terms:
I made the assumption that people will view a transgender as their post-transition gender and not their pre-transition gender. The fact that you consider dating an M2F trans as homosexuality is another more fundamental issue I have no intention of tackling.
Like I said, I don't care to debate on this front.

So.

Why all the fucking hostility? Seriously.

I won't play to your questions, because I've destroyed your initial point, but you insist on moving the goal posts. Your argument sucked.
Uh, alright.
 

dorkkaos

Member
For me, if they want to be referred to as a guy/girl, that's what I regard them.

But, I don't date transgender people because...I have weird mental issues with the whole sticking my dick into something that used to be a dick, but is actually a fauxgina now.

Just a preference really, I still respect their choice, and regard them as such, but my own personal preference, it's a mental hurdle I can't get over.
 

Nafai1123

Banned
And my response to that was to ask if birth genitals are how you intended to define sex and if, therefore, intersex conditions can result in someone neither male nor female.



I don't care what it's caused by, I'm asking how you determine sex in that situation.

That would depend on the situation. It doesn't negate the fact that their sex is still being determined biologically.
 

Jenov

Member
Sorry, didn't read all the replies in the thread, but is there such a thing as being born with no sexual organs? It's not something I feel comfortable googling.

Some googling for you:

http://www.askabiologist.org.uk/answers/viewtopic.php?id=3761

The reason you have been unable to find a word to describe the condition you ask about is because it is unlikely to exist in humans. Embryologically and developmentally the default position is to develop female reproductive organs and secondary sexual characteristics. A normal functional Y-chromosome then changes that to the male phenotype. Loss of function mutations in the genes that code for the male sex organs usually result in a female-like appearance and in some cases, development of a rudimentary vagina and uterus but not ovaries. Even conditions which result in a missing X-chromosome (Turner's syndrome) still have the female habitus though with rudimentary or absent sex organs. Thus the idea that a "normal" human could be born but with no sexual organs and no secondary sexcula characteristics does not occur (or at least I am unaware of such a condition and have been unable to find such a description in the literature). Genetic mutations or chromosomal changes that really induced what you describe would almost certainly cause numerous other changes in many organs in the body that would be embryonically lethal so such an embryo would be most unlikley to be born alive or survive past birth.

In contrast to the above the opposite ie mixed sexual characteristics or ambiguous genitalia is called hermaphroditism.
 

Simplet

Member
I don't understand the point of this thread. I don't want to date a transwoman, the why is irrelevant. Nobody's going to guilt trip me into being aroused by transwomen, and I'm certainly not going to date someone out of some weird sense of duty.

If you forced me to tell you why, I'd say it's the idea that bothers me. The idea that the person used to be a biological male, the idea that her vagina is a reconstructed penis, etc.

I'm not ashamed of it, why would I be? I'm not proud of it either. Maybe I could slowly get used to the idea and work on it with a long-term partner, but why would I go through that? It would be long and not particularly enjoyable. At best you guys might manage to make me feel bad about myself with your arguments, super.
 
Some googling for you:

http://www.askabiologist.org.uk/answers/viewtopic.php?id=3761

The reason you have been unable to find a word to describe the condition you ask about is because it is unlikely to exist in humans. Embryologically and developmentally the default position is to develop female reproductive organs and secondary sexual characteristics. A normal functional Y-chromosome then changes that to the male phenotype. Loss of function mutations in the genes that code for the male sex organs usually result in a female-like appearance and in some cases, development of a rudimentary vagina and uterus but not ovaries. Even conditions which result in a missing X-chromosome (Turner's syndrome) still have the female habitus though with rudimentary or absent sex organs. Thus the idea that a "normal" human could be born but with no sexual organs and no secondary sexcula characteristics does not occur (or at least I am unaware of such a condition and have been unable to find such a description in the literature). Genetic mutations or chromosomal changes that really induced what you describe would almost certainly cause numerous other changes in many organs in the body that would be embryonically lethal so such an embryo would be most unlikley to be born alive or survive past birth.

In contrast to the above the opposite ie mixed sexual characteristics or ambiguous genitalia is called hermaphroditism.

Thank you for the SFW summary.
 

btrboyev

Member
I'm 100% supportive of transgender people and them deciding on what they identify with, however I can't take the science out of a transgendered woman was still technically born a male and hormones and surgery doesn't really change that.

Maybe that's narrow minded or wrong(I don't think it is)
 
I don't understand the point of this thread. I don't want to date a transwoman, the why is irrelevant. Nobody's going to guilt trip me into being aroused by transwomen, and I'm certainly not going to date someone out of some weird sense of duty.

If you forced me to tell you why, I'd say it's the idea that bothers me. The idea that the person used to be a biological male, the idea that her vagina is a reconstructed penis, etc.

I'm not ashamed of it, why would I be? I'm not proud of it either. Maybe I could slowly get used to the idea and work on it with a long-term partner, but why would I go through that? It would be long and not particularly enjoyable. At best you guys might manage to make me feel bad about myself with your arguments, super.
I think, as much as people want to throw all kinds of other reasons around, that this is what it boils down to, but they don't want to admit it.
 

esms

Member
His argument sucked? Do you really think your equivalence of having no attraction to men and having no attraction to transgenders was anything but ripe for misunderstandings?

If I'm understanding him correctly, he regards trans women as transgender first and woman second when it comes to dating. So it boils down to he wouldn't date a man or a transgendered woman, period.

I'd be hard pressed to disagree with him as well. If I knew a woman was trans, that would be her dominant identity to me, for better or for worse.
 

Petrie

Banned
If I'm understanding him correctly, he regards trans women as transgender first and woman second when it comes to dating. So it boils down to he wouldn't date a man or a transgendered woman, period.

I'd be hard pressed to disagree with him as well. If I knew a woman was trans, that would be her dominant identity to me, for better or for worse.

And unless they can literally move their brain into the body of a woman, that will always be the case. I am very sorry if that offends those who are trans and wish they were the opposite gender, but you are not in fact a man or a woman.
 
I'm trying to read this thread and getting very confused. Everyone is talking about situations involving "a transgender" and I have no idea what that means. Isn't that as specific as saying "a gender" in the same context? I mean, saying "I think a transgender should be allowed to use the woman's restroom" is confusing to me, because should you distinguish between a trans male and a trans female in this context?

I dunno. I'm afraid I'm making some big mistake here with the nomenclature, so could someone set me straight before I upset someone?
This was pointed out earlier in the thread, actually. It's a fair criticism I think; you can be transgender either going MtF (Male-to-Female) or FtM (Female-to-Male), but it'd be a mistake to think of them interchangeably. When people are using "transgender" like a noun, that's the confusion which ends up happening.

It makes about as much sense as making no distinction between male and female when discussing about g-spots. Only women can experience g-spot sensations.

There isn't. Your whole argument is based on the idea that who we are sexually attracted to dictates who we like or love. Which isn't the case. By your logic I'm more likely to hurt men because I'm straight and not attracted to men.

Being attracted to someone and caring for them are two different things that occasionally overlap, but you don't need to do both to show that you care about your fellow man. I love my best friend, but I'm not attracted to him. I love my mother, but I have no attraction to her. There are plenty instances where you aren't attracted to the people you care about.
None of what was being said was meant on a specific level, just in general terms. Also, there's different types of love. Your examples are platonic, when we're mostly discussing romance.

I never said that romantic/sexual attraction was necessary in order to show affection/care to other people, although it's worth saying that if you have that attraction you're likely to show MORE care for people you already have platonic affection towards. My comment was just to illustrate somewhat how having those emotions-and in fact even being open to the idea of having those emotions for certain people-can shape interactions with them not just on the micro scale (which is pretty obvious, like anecdotal examples), but the macro scale as well.

If you work down the reasons for certain mass-scale gender conflicts we have today and have had throughout history, for example, in a lot of them it wouldn't surprise me if you found a dinged lack of affection/care on the disenfranchised side due to prejudices and antagonistic viewpoints that, while not the only variable or even a major one, could probably factor into their level of attraction and romantic feelings to members of certain groups.

It's not really to effect of me saying "X-person didn't get a loan on their car because they're of Y-group and Z person doesn't date people in Y-group", because it's never that simple and for some people that probably isn't even a factor. But there's certain thoughts that go into deciding the decision for the loan and in deciding why you wouldn't date someone because reasons, and everything else being equal, to then say for some people lacking the reasons to find X-person worth dating could make them slightly less sympathetic/reasonable in giving them a loan on a car. Whereas if they were even open to dating people in Y-group, and X-person was pretty hot, Z-person may fudge on some things and give them the loan, if they thought that bettered the chances of going out on a date.
 

Despera

Banned
The bottom line is that people can't control what they find attractive and there's no need to shame them for that, but at least we can be respectful of how each individual would like to be labeled as gender-wise.
 
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