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[CaLe]

OK maybe not francophone, but extrapolating the acts of some morons with an entire province makes you look pretty idiotic.

How about seeing your wife being hit in the subway and yelled at and being told to go back to her country ? Or all the stares we get every time we go out because she wears a hijab ? Or doctors telling her to speak French otherwise they won't answer her question ?

The whole province might not be shit, but it's *NOT* welcoming.

Edit: Obviously there's assholes in *every* country and unfortunately they badly represent their country / province. I've seen more of them in Quebec than in other places, and it saddens me because I live there.

 

[p_xavier]

Freedom of religion is protected in Canada, including Quebec.

Adhering to their culture (language etc) does not mean tossing out your faith or religious beliefs.

Actually it kinda does, since the culture here is religion-free due to decades of religious control. This is why there is so much clash with religous folks within the Quebec society.

 

[6.8]

Don't get me wrong CaLe. I'm an expatriated French Quebecer and I don't feel welcome there either most of the time (I was called a traitor by some of my family). So I definitely get that.

But your argument was poor. Sorry.

 

[NastyBook]

Unless your name was Muslim-sounding.

Tom Hanks could pull it off.

 

[gutter_trash]

I'm not native from Quebec, but it is hillarious for you to expect that. Tell that to the majority of people that don't want multiculturalism.

the most ironic part is that the biggest opposition against multircularms stem from homogeonous regions of Quebec that are 98% White, 90% French-Canadian with barely a trace of ethnic minorities.

But politicians play on it for political gain which makes it all worse.

Ever listened to a Nationalists bash the Federal Liberals who support multicuralism? They go on a railling rampage trashing Pierre Trudeau, Jean Chretien and Justin Trudeau.

Conservatives though play both sides, in French they pander to Quebec nationalism, but in English they send Jason Kenney in Toronto to cater to ethnic minorities.

 

[p_xavier]

How about seeing your wife being hit in the subway and yelled at and being told to go back to her country ? Or all the stares we get every time we go out because she wears a hijab ? Or doctors telling her to speak French otherwise they won't answer her question ?

The whole province might not be shit, but it's *NOT* welcoming.

Edit: Obviously there's assholes in *every* country and unfortunately they badly represent their country / province. I've seen more of them in Quebec than in other places, and it saddens me because I live there.

Again, you are expected to be a Quebecker (french speaking, religion free), it's that simple.

 

[Man God]

I hate when Quebec pretends to be like big brother France in all the wrong ways.

 

[p_xavier]

I hate when Quebec pretends to be like big brother France in all the wrong ways.

Not anymore ;-)
http://montrealgazette.com/news/quebec/french-paper-slams-couillard-for-royal-trip

 

[6.8]

I hate when Quebec pretends to be like big brother France in all the wrong ways.

Again. This was a single judge. Was condemned by the PM. Hopefully the judge gets reprimanded.

 

[gutter_trash]

Quebec is not simply one sided on ubber-secularism

You have the lefty-left who want absoulte seculraism

Then you have right wing nationalists who want to preserve Catholic heritage but say NO to everything else that is "funny looking"

politicians play both sides to join both the left wing secularists with the right wing nationalists against the common enemy of ""multiculturalism"".

Thankfully, in Montreal everyone lives in peace and harmony under a multicultural municipal flag and most Montrealers from different walks of life get along an live together.

Montreal should separate from the rest of Quebec.

The rest of Quebec complain that ethnic minorities vote Liberal, but there is a REASON why minorities vote LIBERAL because the rest of the provincial parties are either ubber-nationalist or ubber-separatist

 

[Yagharek]

That judge is almost assuredly a racist piece of shit. Let's not forget that you have to swear an oath on the bible in Quebec courtrooms.

Secular indeed

 

[le-seb]

A baseball cap is not the same as a hijab. Canada is supposed to be a multicultural country that promotes acceptance and tolerance of all cultures, religions, and race.

So, if I'm free to embrace any religion and follow its precepts, I should be able to embrace one that commends to wear sunglasses and baseball caps.
And because of religious freedom, I should be able to create such a religion for myself if it doesn't already exist.

I can see where some people are coming from here, but either you apply the same rules requiring people to take anything covering their faces off when they appear in a court room, regardless of their religion, or you just take no such requirement at all.

Making exceptions for the sake of somebody's beliefs is a kind of discrimination towards people who don't share these beliefs.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Atheist here. Let the woman wear her damn scarf. It's important to her and does not detract from the proceedings in any way. It's not the same thing as a baseball cap and people who say it is are either being disingenuous or take baseball really really seriously.

 

[gutter_trash]

remember the whole debate about removing the crucifix from the national assembly?

Like I said, the left are conveniently secular but they want to appease the right's wishes to keep symbols of Catholicism alive but NO to all other alien forms of religions

that is what makes the Quebec debate on secularism hypocritical

 

[Man God]

Atheist here. Let the woman wear her damn scarf. It's important to her and does not detract from the proceedings in any way. It's not the same thing as a baseball cap and people who say it is are either being disingenuous or take baseball really really seriously.

Baseball is a fine and dandy religion. It has its own arcane and outdated codex of rules, mysterious powers from on high, blood line curses, witchcraft like advanced metrics.

 

[Beefy]

If it was something covering her face I would agree. But nope this is just stupid.

 

[pgtl_10]

Not at all. Jews are a race of people. Muslims are not.

That's actually debatable. When Zionism first appeared there was pushback against this concept.

 

[pgtl_10]

I see a lot of the whole complaints about burqas and Hijabs as being specifically about Islam. For instance, there are a lot of Russian Orthodox Christians where I live, and they wear head scarves. For all of the talk from people complaining about Hijabs and burqas, I have never seen people say that Russian Orthodox Christian women are oppressed by their head scarves.

Because Christianity is viewed as a Western and white man's religion. Islam which shares similarities to Christianity is viewed as Eastern.

It's really Orientalism.

 

[The Power Of Snap]

I love how any thread with Quebec in the title will just derail into Quebec bashing, regardless of the content of the OP.

Brought to you by the angryphones of Quebec ©

 

[SneakyStephan]

One one hand it's just scarf, what's the harm in wearing it
On the other hand it's just a scarf, remove the damn thing if it's required by the judge.

I also think religious symbols have no place in any court.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

This is fucking gross.

I would have been sympathetic to the judge if it was a nikab or a burka, which obscure the face, but I see no legitimate reason why she would not be allowed to wear a hijab.

 

[Two Words]

The problem is that most countries that intend to be secular actually end up giving a lot of concessions to the religious. So what ends up happening is that the religious expect to be accommodated. For example, I had a college class that would allow students to take tests at different dates if they missed it due to a religious obligation. But if I broke my leg on my way to school and was hospitalized, that would not be a valid reason to reschedule the test.

 

[gutter_trash]

One one hand it's just scarf, what's the harm in wearing it
On the other hand it's just a scarf, remove the damn thing if it's required by the judge.

I also think religious symbols have no place in any court.

If Sikh men are allowed to wear a turban in the House of Commons as elected MPs, I don't see what is the problem with a women defendant/plaintiff wearing her hijab headscarf in court (where her face is visible by the way)

 

[aly]

The problem is that most countries that intend to be secular actually end up giving a lot of concessions to the religious. So what ends up happening is that the religious expect to be accommodated. For example, I had a college class that would allow students to take tests at different dates if they missed it due to a religious obligation. But if I broke my leg on my way to school and was hospitalized, that would not be a valid reason to reschedule the test.

That's a hardcore class you go to. I've been sick and able to reschedule tests. I know people who've been in accidents on the way to school and are able to reschedule tests. Maybe that's just a problem with that class?

 

[Outtrigger888]

No, it doesn't, because you don't wear a hat or glasses for religious reasons. A hijab should be perfectly fine.

What if I created my own religion that standard clothing includes hat and glasses. Can I cause a fuss if asked to remove?

 

[clem84]

"When she insisted I should remove my hijab, really I felt like she was talking with me as ... not a human being

I think she really damaged her credibility with this one. Not a human being because she asked you to remove your hijab in a court room? She's playing the victim.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think she really damaged her credibility with this one. Not a human being because she asked you to remove your hijab in a court room? She is the victim.

FTFY.

You don't need to play the victim when you're being victimized.

 

[oneils]

Well, she came to Canada, so she should adapt to Canadian rules and culture.

These aren't canadian rules. The judge in question is prett much the only judge banning the hijab in her courtroom from what I can tell.

 

[gutter_trash]

These aren't canadian rules. The judge in question is prettyich the only judging banning the hijab in her courtroom from what I can tell.

there is the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms of 1982 Federally and there is the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms of 1976 on the provincial front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms#Features

Section 2: which lists what the Charter calls "fundamental freedoms" namely freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, freedom of thought, freedom of belief, freedom of expression, freedom of the press and of other media of communication, freedom of peaceful assembly, and freedom of association.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Charter_of_Human_Rights_and_Freedoms#Enforceability

The Quebec charter's supremacy under its section 52 applies to the following categories of rights: fundamental rights and freedoms (the right to life, free speech, freedom of religion, the right to privacy, etc.); the right to equality; political rights; and judicial rights. Economic and social rights do not enjoy supremacy but, according to the Supreme Court of Canada in the 2002 case of Gosselin v. Quebec (Attorney General), failure to respect such a right may give rise to a judicial declaration of violation.

 

[oneils]

there is the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms of 1982 Federally and there is the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms of 1976 on the provincial front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms#Features


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Charter_of_Human_Rights_and_Freedoms#Enforceability

I think you misinterpreted my post. Edit: nothing in these charters means the hijab needs to be banned in a courtroom.

 

[Transhuman]

FTFY.

You don't need to play the victim when you're being victimized.

Come now, she's not being hosed down against a wall, she's being asked to take off a piece of clothing that obfuscates her features (if only slightly). Judge is a prick for not letting it go and moving on, woman is a prick for not acquiescing .

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

The problem is that most countries that intend to be secular actually end up giving a lot of concessions to the religious. So what ends up happening is that the religious expect to be accommodated. For example, I had a college class that would allow students to take tests at different dates if they missed it due to a religious obligation. But if I broke my leg on my way to school and was hospitalized, that would not be a valid reason to reschedule the test.

I strongly doubt you would get a 0. If not you should sue for human rights violations, discriminating against your disability.

 

[Loofy]

Come now, she's not being hosed down against a wall, she's being asked to take off a piece of clothing that obfuscates her features (if only slightly). Judge is a prick for not letting it go and moving on, woman is a prick for not acquiescing .

She clearly gives the reason why she wants it taken off. And 'obfuscates her features' isnt it. So dont make stuff up.

 

[Lamel]

Come now, she's not being hosed down against a wall, she's being asked to take off a piece of clothing that obfuscates her features (if only slightly). Judge is a prick for not letting it go and moving on, woman is a prick for not acquiescing .

Lol wow.

 

[King Gilga]

woman is a prick for not acquiescing .

Oh fuck off. If you asked any of my religious male sikh family members to take their turban off in court, they'd tell you where you can shove it.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

$20,000 raised for single mom Rania El-Alloul who couldn't afford lawyer. You go girl! ^^

Donations pour in to GoFundMe campaign to help Rania El-Alloul buy a car after a judge refused to hear her case unless she removed her hijab.

...

El-Alloul’s court case was suspended indefinitely after she refused to remove her scarf. El-Alloul says the incident has left her feeling afraid.

“If you want to speak to a judge in the court and the judge herself is not listening to you . . . I felt afraid,” she said.

Now El-Alloul is speaking with lawyers and plans to file a complaint against the judge.

“The most important is to get respect,” she said. “I gave her respect. She didn’t give me my respect. I don’t want this thing to happen to anybody else.”

 

[captmorgan]

Let her wear her hat, I wouldnt take a teddy bear away from a special needs child. This is no different.

 

[The Incarnation]

Instead of complaining, she should have put one on herself. Then insisted everyone else in the room do the same. And then force everyone to play musical chairs, just for shits and giggles.

 

[Frog-fu]

What if I created my own religion that standard clothing includes hat and glasses. Can I cause a fuss if asked to remove?

Someone else already responded to this type of shitposting.

Well first off, let's get this out of the way: you do not worship a purple elephant in the sky, nor will you ever for a single moment in your entire life. That you compare "ancient religion" to "thing I made up while jerking off intellectually on NeoGAF" is super disheartening.

I have nothing further to add.

Let her wear her hat, I wouldnt take a teddy bear away from a special needs child. This is no different.

Vile.

 

[segasonic]

If some Canadians are hypocrites... that sucks. But people should keep their religious rituals private, especially in a court of law. Otherwise pastafarians should be allowed to wear pasta strainers in court...

 

[le-seb]

She clearly gives the reason why she wants it taken off. And 'obfuscates her features' isnt it. So dont make stuff up.

In the meantime, here are the court rules in Quebec.(couldn't find an english version, if any) :

13. Toute personne qui comparait devant le tribunal doit être convenablement vêtue.

It's simply stating that anybody appearing before the court must be properly dressed.

But, there's also this one:

12. Est prohibé à l'audience ce qui porte atteinte au décorum et au bon ordre.

It forbids anything that would go against decorum and good order.
I guess that's the decorum thing that requires people to take their headgear off.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Same way in some states it's harder to be Muslim, in Canada in some provinces it's harder to be Muslim.

We're not talking "everyone in that state/province is racist," we're talking how you might have more problems with the politicians/cops/legal system in those places.

 

[t-storm]

Well, she came to Canada, so she should adapt to Canadian rules and culture.

These aren't canadian rules. The judge in question is prett much the only judge banning the hijab in her courtroom from what I can tell.

That may be so oneils but Canadian public opinion on the streets, online, in Tim Hortons across the country, is arguably shifting towards what Shiggy said.

These Canadians are simply less tolerant and getting tired of people coming here and their culture being accommodated over Canadian culture and values.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

In the meantime, here are the court rules in Quebec.(couldn't find an english version, if any) :

It's simply stating that anybody appearing before the court must be properly dressed.

But, there's also this one:

It forbids anything that would go against decorum and good order.
I guess that's the decorum thing that requires people to take their headgear off.

So Sikhs can't get justice in Canadian courts if they don't remove their turbans?

 

[le-seb]

So Sikhs can't get justice in Canadian courts if they don't remove their turbans?

I don't know, I'm no Canadian.
I was just trying to bring hard facts to the discussion.

Well first off, let's get this out of the way: you do not worship a purple elephant in the sky, nor will you ever for a single moment in your entire life. That you compare "ancient religion" to "thing I made up while jerking off intellectually on NeoGAF" is super disheartening.

So, you are basically denying freedom of religion to people, just because they are not as ancient and/or credible as others/yours.
Because the lores of any religion can be seen as perfectly ridiculous by people who don't believe in them.

 

[Transhuman]

She clearly gives the reason why she wants it taken off. And 'obfuscates her features' isnt it. So dont make stuff up.

"Hats and sunglasses for example, are not allowed. And I don't see why scarves on the head would be either,"

That's the reason.

Oh fuck off. If you asked any of my religious male sikh family members to take their turban off in court, they'd tell you where you can shove it.

And i'd agree with them, because people are way more distinguishable when they're wearing a Turban than when they're wearing a hajib. You can also see the face more clearly from more angles. Australia is also one of the few places where Sikhs aren't required by law to wear a helmet on a bicycle. I've watched tons of Sikhs getting their ID's wearing turbans taken and going to court and I couldn't care less.

 

[Dr.Acula]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ed-case-unless-hijab-removed/article23229155/

A Montreal judge who told a Muslim woman to take off her head scarf if she wanted a court hearing was assailed by the Prime Minister’s Office, opposition leaders and Quebec’s Premier, as the province’s bitter debate over religious freedom and secularism reached the justice system.

[...]

Case law in Canada appears to give strong backing for the right to wear religious headgear in court. The Supreme Court of Canada, ruling in a 2012 case where an alleged sex-assault victim sought to wear a niqab while testifying, said judges need to balance a witness’s sincere religious beliefs with the accused’s right to a fair trial. “A secular response that requires witnesses to park their religion at the courtroom door is inconsistent with the jurisprudence and Canadian tradition, and limits freedom of religion where no limit can be justified,” Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin wrote.

In a 1993 case in Toronto, Justice Arthur Whealy of the Ontario Superior Court of Justice ordered a spectator, Michael Taylor, to remove his Muslim kufi, a prayer cap, or leave the courtroom. The Ontario Court of Appeal, the Canadian Judicial Council and the Federal Court of Appeal all said the judge had been wrong.

So every party at every level of govt. is saying that the judge screwed up, and the supreme court supports the right of Canadians to wear religious garb in court. It's only the Que. courts supporting this judge.

It would be as if the judge started yelling at you to shave your side-burns. A Hijab is not a hat or sunglasses, it's not inappropriate dress for court.

 

[Frog-fu]

That's the reason.



And i'd agree with them, because people are way more distinguishable when they're wearing a Turban than when they're wearing a hajib. You can also see the face more clearly from more angles. Australia is also one of the few places where Sikhs aren't required by law to wear a helmet on a bicycle.

Since you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

Here's a sikh turban

[IMG]http://www.menswearstyle.co.uk/content/blogs/blog_ln_1008.jpg[/IMG]

and here's a hijab.

[IMG]http://www.stylesglamour.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Latest-Hijab-Styles-2014-@stylesglamour-com-4.jpg[/IMG]

See how they both cover only hair and not the face?

 

[Transhuman]

Since you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

Yeah, I see one picture where you can see a guy's neck, ears, sides of face, and another picture where all you can see is a nose eyes, mouth and chin, which you cannot even see from the sides because of the hood. Tell me more about how hajib's and turbans are identical.

Edit: Man, the fact you had to change the picture does not look good for your argument. I mean c'mon, a black background?

 

[oneils]

That may be so oneils but Canadian public opinion on the streets, online, in Tim Hortons across the country, is arguably shifting towards what Shiggy said.

These Canadians are simply less tolerant and getting tired of people coming here and their culture being accommodated over Canadian culture and values.

Shrug. Takes zero effort to "accommodate" the hijab. Not sure what the fuss is all about.