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[TxdoHawk]

I'm curious about GAF's opinion on this. As an example, recent Earned Income Tax Credit requirements:

Tax Year 2008

Earned income and adjusted gross income (AGI) must each be less than:

$38,646 ($41,646 married filing jointly) with two or more qualifying children

$33,995 ($36,995 married filing jointly) with one qualifying child

$12,880 ($15,880 married filing jointly) with no qualifying children

Tax Year 2008 maximum credit:


$4,824 with two or more qualifying children

$2,917 with one qualifying child

$438 with no qualifying children

Note that having one child means you can earn up to an additional 21k in a year, and potentially qualify for a lot more credit.

Now, granted, nobody raising a kid on 34k a year is going to be living it up, but I don't even think 12k will earn you a single independent living in the boonies, never mind urban areas like NJ/NY. On top of that, this is hardly the only break parents get, while even this kind of "help" for single childless people is extremely rare.

My point is this: I don't want to see kids suffer any more than the next guy. But doesn't this kind of stuff in excess only encourage childbirth in borderline financial situations? If we're not going to cut back on that end, I at least want to see assistance qualifications for single childless people bumped to a point beyond "so below the livable standard that the credits won't even help". I feel that as a responsible adult who knows he can't properly afford to raise a child, I'm getting dicked over on taxes to the benefit of people who shouldn't be having kids in the first place.

Another potential idea: What if parents who took advantage of these programs paid increased taxes when the child is no longer considered a dependent (with a couple of years extra potentially tacked on for certain cases involving college)?

What do you think?

 

[Fusebox]

Do it. Socialism FTW.

 

[gdt]

There are defenders and haters for everything on GAF.

I think there's a Hitler defense force somewhere around here...

 

[BobbyRobby]

i wouldn't mind some some sort of tax relief for people who sterilize themselves

 

[Gatekeeper]

The implication that people should reach a certain income threshold before having children is ignorant and retarded. Our tax benefits from the EIC went straight into our child's college fund.

EDIT RE Birth Prices: Yes, they have gone up. The C-section for my son in 2006 was ~$3500. Insurance covered about a 3rd of that.

 

[half a moon]

Are you implying that an adult making less than $33,995, probably around $12,000, would have a kid just to get the $2,900 credit?

In 1988, my birth bills alone cost ~$2,000 as opposed to around ~$500 for my sister in 1985. I'm guesstimating these prices. There was a significant increase, and my bills were indeed in the thousands. Point is, kids cost a lot to bring into the world. Looking at figures Google shows significantly higher prices for doctor visits and delivery in 2009.

So, given the fact that it takes almost a year to plant the seed and pop a kid out of a fagina. Preparations, medical bills, food, etc. will eat up all the $2,900 they potentially get in the future before they get it. Probably way more.

 

[speculawyer]

Someone has to raise those kids that will carry on society . . . you need them to pay for your socialism security.

 

[AlteredBeast]

My parents never got any special help from the goverment. I am the youngest of 10 kids and my dad worked 2 jobs all of his adult life. My mom worked most of the time, as well.

Point is, people should really be encouraged to work their asses off before the government steps in and hands them a freebie. We were a damn happy family that never had any extravagancies. Too many families taking special assistance from the govt end up with 60" flat screens, label clothing, and etc.

 

[TxdoHawk]

Are you implying that an adult making less than $33,995, probably around $12,000, would have a kid just to get the $2,900 credit?

Definitely not. Again, I'm not arguing these people are living the sweet life on my dime, I just fail to see why people in borderline financial situations having children get so much more support in comparison to those that struggle childless. The reality is that these kids deserve a good shot at life, but doesn't everybody? I don't expect equal amounts of support, since the childless don't have the second mouth to feed, but the whole system is way beyond that, it just really seems to flip the bird at those who choose to remain childless.

 

[Walshicus]

JayDubya feels angry about it!

 

[super metroid]

having a kid makes it incredibly difficult to secure a high-paying job if you don't already have one and you're uneducated. beyond that, it costs far more per year than a pithy five grand to raise two kids. far, far more.


“USDA’s Center for Nutrition Policy and Promotion (CNPP), notes that family income has a direct affect on child rearing expenditures. Families with a before-tax income below $45,800 are projected to spend $148,320 on expenses related to child rearing or $196,010 when factoring for future inflation. Families with an income between $45,800 and $77,100 can expect to spend $204,060 or $269,040 with an inflation factor. Families with an income above $77,100 can expect to spend $298,680 or $393,230 – factoring for inflation.”

 

[echoshifting]

Definitely not. Again, I'm not arguing these people are living the sweet life on my dime, I just fail to see why people in borderline financial situations having children get so much more support in comparison to those that struggle childless. The reality is that these kids deserve a good shot at life, but doesn't everybody? I don't expect equal amounts of support, since the childless don't have the second mouth to feed, but the whole system is way beyond that, it just really seems to flip the bird at those who choose to remain childless.

But you have to keep in mind it's not for the bearer of the child, it's for the child. The child did not ask to be born, particularly not into poverty. Yes it's true that not every childless person is able to "pick themselves up by their bootstraps," but there's really no comparison between their ability to do so and that of a child.

Also, having a kid is ridiculously expensive (and as super metroid brought up above, makes it much, much tougher to get a promotion - great point). That amount of money would be of help but it's not like those who would need it would be laughing all the way to the bank, or anything.

 

[NinjaFridge]

There are defenders and haters for everything on GAF.

I think there's a Hitler defense force somewhere around here...

He saw what he wanted and went for it, pretty admirable in its own way.

 

[Kipz]

He saw what he wanted and went for it, pretty admirable in its own way.

He was also a really good leader except for the fact he was batshit insane.

 

[numble]

My parents never got any special help from the goverment. I am the youngest of 10 kids and my dad worked 2 jobs all of his adult life. My mom worked most of the time, as well.

Point is, people should really be encouraged to work their asses off before the government steps in and hands them a freebie. We were a damn happy family that never had any extravagancies. Too many families taking special assistance from the govt end up with 60" flat screens, label clothing, and etc.

Your parents never asked for tax deductions or credits on their income taxes?

 

[straydog1980]

I support this 10000000%

When I found out I was going to have a daughter, I was delivering pizza. I brought home $1200 a month if I was LUCKY. We needed all the help we could get. If it hadn't been for Medicaid and tax credits like this, I don't know how we would have made it.

 

[Cosmic Bus]

I support this 10000000%

When I found out I was going to have a daughter, I was delivering pizza. I brought home $1200 a month if I was LUCKY. We needed all the help we could get. If it hadn't been for Medicaid and tax credits like this, I don't know how we would have made it.

Wasn't exactly good judgment either way, was it? If you didn't have the independant financial ability to raise a child, you and your girlfriend/wife shouldn't have been trying to get pregnant in the first place, and if it was an accident, well, the irresponsible nature of the situation speaks for itself.

 

[Night_Trekker]

I guess it depends on why they're struggling in the first place.

 

[Dead Man]

Wasn't exactly good judgment either way, was it? If you didn't have the independant financial ability to raise a child, you and your girlfriend/wife shouldn't have been trying to get pregnant in the first place, and if it was an accident, well, the irresponsible nature of the situation speaks for itself.

Judgemental much? Accidents happen dude. And even if it wasn't an accident, who are you to judge if someone should have a kid?

 

[Night_Trekker]

Judgemental much? Accidents happen dude. And even if it wasn't an accident, who are you to judge if someone should have a kid?

If you don't have the money to take care of the kid? Anyone is free to judge you then.

 

[eznark]

Judgemental much? Accidents happen dude. And even if it wasn't an accident, who are you to judge if someone should have a kid?

Someone who is paying for him to afford that kid?

 

[Dead Man]

If you don't have the money to take care of the kid? Anyone is free to judge you then.

So you know nothing of the circumstances and you think you can judge him? Fuck off with your tough guy act, it's boring.

 

[Dead Man]

Someone who is paying for him to afford that kid?

You are paying for his kid? Okay, lets say there are .0001c that you have contributed. Have you ever been the beneficiary of a tax credit, tax rebate, or tax exemption? Because someone paid for that too.

Edit: Actually, never mind, maybe he was irresponsible, had sex with someone, and didn't use any contraception. Better make sure the kid is hungry to punish the father.

 

[bengraven]

Wasn't exactly good judgment either way, was it? If you didn't have the independant financial ability to raise a child, you and your girlfriend/wife shouldn't have been trying to get pregnant in the first place, and if it was an accident, well, the irresponsible nature of the situation speaks for itself.

That's a dick thing to say.

There are plenty of good parents who may have made an irresponsible moment in the past but were able to move on quickly and take that responsibility needed. I think you're making a broad statement aimed at the stereotype of the lower class.

Of course, if this statement is aimed at those who want/need financial help, it's a little less offensive base judgement, but still offensive to me.

 

[eznark]

You are paying for his kid? Okay, lets say there are .0001c that you have contributed. Have you ever been the beneficiary of a tax credit, tax rebate, or tax exemption? Because someone paid for that too.

Edit: Actually, never mind, maybe he was irresponsible, had sex with someone, and didn't use any contraception. Better make sure the kid is hungry to punish the father.

Well, it's the same justification we use for ousting CEO's and capping benefits at bailed out banks. The scale is clearly different but the principle of the matter is the same.

In America we have clearly established that recipients of taxpayer dollars are subject to the judgment of the government (ie, you and I).

 

[ScientificNinja]

I'm up for around $8,000 from obstetricians, anaesthesiologists, pathologists, etc for the birth of my daughter last week. Insurance will cover a fair chunk of that. There are continuing costs of lactation consultants, early childhood centres, breast pumps... that's not even counting things like prams, cots, blankets and mountains upon mountains of nappies. And then there are the things they don't tell you about, like the shitloads of extra water, gas and electricity you use for washing and heating, the added cost of buying out more because you've got no time to cook on account of the 3-4 hour feed cycles and total lack of sleep... We're comfortable - not rich - but I'll happily take any kind of help I can get.

 

[Dead Man]

Well, it's the same justification we use for ousting CEO's and capping benefits at bailed out banks. The scale is clearly different but the principle of the matter is the same.

In America we have clearly established that recipients of taxpayer dollars are subject to the judgment of the government (ie, you and I).

Nice semantics, but okay, lets say you are correct. In this case, the government has judged that some families should be the recipient of those dollars.

 

[numble]

Barack Obama's mom needed food stamps. Never should have had a child while still a teenager! SMH.

 

[eznark]

Nice semantics, but okay, lets say you are correct. In this case, the government has judged that some families should be the recipient of those dollars.

Well sure, I was simply referencing the "who are you to judge" part of the above comment.

We are the piggy bank, therefore we get to judge.

 

[Night_Trekker]

So you know nothing of the circumstances and you think you can judge him? Fuck off with your tough guy act, it's boring.

"Tough guy act"? :lol

Look, if you choose to have a child you can't afford, barring remarkable circumstances ("we were using protection and it didn't work, and neither of us believes in abortion"), you've done something irresponsible. The idea that anyone else should foot the bill for that irresponsibility is outrageous.

 

[bengraven]

I'm up for around $8,000 from obstetricians, anaesthesiologists, pathologists, etc for the birth of my daughter last week. Insurance will cover a fair chunk of that. There are continuing costs of lactation consultants, early childhood centres, breast pumps... that's not even counting things like prams, cots, blankets and mountains upon mountains of nappies. And then there are the things they don't tell you about, like the shitloads of extra water, gas and electricity you use for washing and heating, the added cost of buying out more because you've got no time to cook on account of the 3-4 hour feed cycles and total lack of sleep... We're comfortable - not rich - but I'll happily take any kind of help I can get.

I'm in the exact same boat as you, a year later.

I have a great job, but nothing that puts me in the upper-middle class tax bracket.

My son has a heart condition and we were recommended by the University of Florida to put him on alimentum formula. That alone was costing us $400 a month, which is the same price as my fiancee's car payment, so when our doctors said we were morons for not going on WIC and getting it paid for, we jumped at it.

"Tough guy act"?

Look, if you choose to have a child you can't afford, barring remarkable circumstances ("we were using protection and it didn't work, and neither of us believes in abortion"), you've done something irresponsible. The idea that anyone else should foot the bill for that irresponsibility is outrageous.

Oh, so you're just one of THOSE assholes.

 

[Dead Man]

Well sure, I was simply referencing the "who are you to judge" part of the above comment.

We are the piggy bank, therefore we get to judge.

Well, I'll grant you that, in the collective sense of 'we', through our elected officials. But as individuals, without the facts of the situation, surely we cannot judge each case as being not worthy of assistance.

"Tough guy act"? :lol

Look, if you choose to have a child you can't afford, barring remarkable circumstances ("we were using protection and it didn't work, and neither of us believes in abortion"), you've done something irresponsible. The idea that anyone else should foot the bill for that irresponsibility is outrageous.

So you would punish the kid for the parents failings? This is the tough guy act I am referring to. You want to get tough with an infants wellbeing?

 

[eznark]

Well, I'll grant you that, in the collective sense of 'we', through our elected officials. But as individuals, without the facts of the situation, surely we cannot judge each case as being not worthy of assistance.

Where did I say he was unworthy? All I said, essentially, was that if you accept tax payer dollars, you also accept taxpayer input.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Oh, so you're just one of THOSE assholes.

:lol

I mean sure, I would rather the family get some tax money than the kid suffer for its parents' ineptitude, but come on. People are acting like making a baby is some glorious right that should always be exercised and respected, regardless of the parents' financial situation. It isn't. I have no respect for anyone who has a child they can't afford when they could just as easily have used birth control. It's not that expensive.

So you would punish the kid for the parents failings? This is the tough guy act I am referring to. You want to get tough with an infants wellbeing?

In a perfect world, I would have the parents suffer the consequences of their actions. Unfortunately, that means the child would probably suffer, so no, I'm not okay with that.

I will not sit here and fail to insult people who have children they can't afford, as if it were an inevitability.

 

[bengraven]

:lol

I mean sure, I would rather the family get some tax money than the kid suffer for its parents' ineptitude, but come on. People are acting like making a baby is some glorious right that should always be exercised and respected, regardless of the parents' financial situation. It isn't. I have no respect for anyone who has a child they can't afford when they could just as easily have used birth control. It's not that expensive.

I don't think of it as the government helping the parents, I think it as the government wanting to make sure the children are taken care of.

And it's not THAT expensive, but it is expensive.

 

[Dead Man]

Where did I say he was unworthy? All I said, essentially, was that if you accept tax payer dollars, you also accept taxpayer input.

Okay, ground we can both agree on. I was referring originally to judgement though, whether positive or negative, not input. Of course you can be free to criticise what someone has done, and to lobby for rule changes. But to flat out say, as someone else, not you, said that people should never receive funds for expenses related to having children is very different.

Wasn't exactly good judgment either way, was it? If you didn't have the independant financial ability to raise a child, you and your girlfriend/wife shouldn't have been trying to get pregnant in the first place, and if it was an accident, well, the irresponsible nature of the situation speaks for itself.

This is the part that mainly prompted my response.

 

[NinjaFridge]

You're one of those people that think people need a license to have kids aren't you?

 

[Night_Trekker]

And it's not THAT expensive, but it is expensive.

A condom isn't that expensive, no.

And if you can't afford rubbers, is it a great idea to have a child? That's all I'm saying.

 

[bengraven]

You're one of those people that think people need a license to have kids aren't you?

Few people would have children. We would eventually end up in a Children of Men situation. :lol

A condom isn't that expensive, no.

And if you can't afford rubbers, is it a great idea to have a child? That's all I'm saying.

My assumption is, you either don't have kids or you're one of those people who believe you need everything to be JUST RIGHT before having a kid.

Ignoring the obvious "slipping off" or "broke condoms" or even that condoms are not 100% effective, you're trying to make a black and white argument in difficult territory.

 

[straydog1980]

Wasn't exactly good judgment either way, was it? If you didn't have the independant financial ability to raise a child, you and your girlfriend/wife shouldn't have been trying to get pregnant in the first place, and if it was an accident, well, the irresponsible nature of the situation speaks for itself.

fuck you.

seriously, just fuck you. So, what should I have done then, smart responsible guy? Had an abortion? That would have been the "responsible" way to handle such an unexpected situation? Snuffing a life? Frankly, we were using condoms and she still got pregnant... how should I have avoided that? Abstinence? OK

My daughter is 7 years old now. Looking at her now, even thinking about possibly having aborted her makes me sick to my stomach, it makes me ill. The whole situation was unexpected for and unplanned, but we made it work and now I'm in a much better place financially.

I paid almost $20,000 in taxes last year. So I think I've made up for the 5-10k I received in government aid during that time.

Fuck you and the ignorant horse you rode in on.

 

[NinjaFridge]

Few people would have children. We would eventually end up in a Children of Men situation. :lol

:lol

 

[beelzebozo]

i think it's complicated and should be considered on a case-by-case basis.

 

[DangerStepp]

Did you know there are some folks who have kids strictly for government assistance? True story.

 

[Night_Trekker]

fuck you.

seriously, just fuck you. So, what should I have done then, smart responsible guy? Had an abortion? That would have been the "responsible" way to handle such an unexpected situation? Snuffing a life? Frankly, we were using condoms and she still got pregnant... how should I have avoided that? Abstinence? OK

My daughter is 7 years old now. Looking at her now, even thinking about possibly having aborted her makes me sick to my stomach, it makes me ill. The whole situation was unexpected for and unplanned, but we made it work and now I'm in a much better place financially.

So fuck you and the ignorant horse you rode in on.

You took precautions beforehand, and neither you nor your wife was okay with abortion. You did what you could, as far as I'm concerned. I have no objection to someone in that situation receiving help.

i think it's complicated and should be considered on a case-by-case basis.

There you go. That works too.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

So you would punish the kid for the parents failings? This is the tough guy act I am referring to. You want to get tough with an infants wellbeing?

Omission of action, especially when the individual or individuals involved in the situation have done nothing to earn action, is not punishment in any way. It's not the government's responsibility to take care of peoples children, nor is it fair for the government to care for the needs of some to the exclusion of others.

 

[bengraven]

fuck you.

seriously, just fuck you. So, what should I have done then, smart responsible guy? Had an abortion? That would have been the "responsible" way to handle such an unexpected situation? Snuffing a life? Frankly, we were using condoms and she still got pregnant... how should I have avoided that? Abstinence? OK

My daughter is 7 years old now. Looking at her now, even thinking about possibly having aborted her makes me sick to my stomach, it makes me ill. The whole situation was unexpected for and unplanned, but we made it work and now I'm in a much better place financially.

So fuck you and the ignorant horse you rode in on.

High five.

My kid has been a pain in the ass, financially and mentally, but what kid isn't?

How could you abort this?

Yes, we should turn this into a thread where we post our kids to make us look like parents oblivious to the main issue.

Did you know there are some folks who have kids strictly for government assistance? True story.

That's true, but some in this thread think that would 100% of those requesting or being given government assistance.

 

[Gantz]

Parent's should be required to take classes before having kids or receiving any type of benefits :lol

 

[beelzebozo]

Did you know there are some folks who have kids strictly for government assistance? True story.

you can't punish the kids and make their lives shitty because the parents are stupid, though. then again, you can't legally take the kids away. so what can you do, you know? it's not an easy situation.

 

[Dead Man]

Omission of action, especially when the individual or individuals involved in the situation have done nothing to earn action, is not punishment in any way. It's not the government's responsibility to take care of peoples children, nor is it fair for the government to care for the needs of some to the exclusion of others.

It is a societies responsibility to look after those who cannot look after themselves. That includes children. Why do you think your taxes pay for orphanages?

And children do not have to earn action, they have a right to it as humans.

 

[DangerStepp]

you can't punish the kids and make their lives shitty because the parents are stupid, though. then again, you can't legally take the kids away. so what can you do, you know? it's not an easy situation.

Exactly. Children can't help the situation they were brought into.

I was reminded of a particular incident in which my friend's mom, a nurse, was helping delivery a baby for a woman who already had 6 or 7 kids; she was single and had no job--living off of the government. When asked if she wanted her tubes tied, she refused, stating that she intended on having more children. That's just ridiculous. That's taking advantage of a broken system and makes me hot under the collar to think about how more often than not that it happens.