There's already considerable infighting among creators over who gets to use what. A lot of mods build off of each other. That's all over now. The oil rig analogy is fitting.
Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods
- Thread starter Sendou
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There's already considerable infighting among creators over who gets to use what. A lot of mods build off of each other. That's all over now. The oil rig analogy is fitting.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Exactly
People are being fooled like a bunch of suckers with these two narratives and it is depressing.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yup, I agree...look at Greenlight. Once Valve made a system to get small-dev created games;Aimed to make it easier to get your game 'out there', it was flooded with unbelievable shit. People just trying to cash in by stealing assets/rearranging assets in Unity/copy pasting games. You saw this earlier through XNA games from the 360, where there was a dozen, if not hundreds of minecraft clones appear. Before what took actual commitment and talent to making an 'indie' game, now takes a rehashed, copy idea. Before, where an indie game that shined would be propelled to popularity before it hit a bigger market place, now only takes a few clicks to get it a spotlight in Valves system. Greenlight is fundamentally broken because of this.
And now they're doing the same for Mods. What was before, a passion-driven scene, one driven of imagination, it'll soon be filled with shit. From people who want to make a quick buck, who edit a few lines of codes to make a slightly different looking sword(For Skyrims case..), repackage and resell it for some money. Some people don't care about giving effort or trying, if it makes them a few bucks, then they don't care about how much they get for a cut, and they certainly don't care that they'll be filling the market with their shit.
"But let the market take care of them. Let the users downvote them.". So they'll repackage it and put it up again. Just look at this little gem from days past, a piece of shit. So it was renamed. And then it was renamed again to avoid the ratings it was given, or association of before.
There is precedent for seeing bad games get through the Greenlight process-I've mentioned it before, but Jim Sterling does videos about these lazy types of games. You should look at his channel if you disagree. If you don't think that mods will be headed the same way under Valves umbrella....
ashecitism
Member
Are the press trying to get a hold of Valve or Bethesda? Does the former think the Dota majors announcement is going to be enough for this week and things are going to calm down? This is the biggest backlash Valve has faced in years, someone should take responsibility already.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
So much... over-reaction I feel. It has been like 2-3 days since this news hit and people are acting like it is the death of modding as we know it.
We all know things like this were going to happen eventually, even the UE4 is going to have its own marketplace.
I'd imagine going forward there will be a selection of both paid and free mods. Ideally only the best mods, perhaps even better than most mods we see now, will be paid for. And imagine if they are worth paying for. It is possible.
I think my initial reaction to this was a bit humorous cause I stumbled upon it in steam and saw the threads with the middle fingers. Later I thought this isn't necessarily a good thing from a consumer stand point. But I think if you give it some time to brew, let the positives of a marketplace ripen, we could be pleasantly surprised.
Now granted, maybe the doomsayers in this thread are right. But at least from my point of view, right now in the present, there is no way to really tell.
I think a lot can be said about the way they are handling this market. Both good and bad. But in any market, shit sinks to the bottom pretty quickly. This should allay people's concerns over time, at least in terms of reliability and quality of mods.
We all know things like this were going to happen eventually, even the UE4 is going to have its own marketplace.
I'd imagine going forward there will be a selection of both paid and free mods. Ideally only the best mods, perhaps even better than most mods we see now, will be paid for. And imagine if they are worth paying for. It is possible.
I think my initial reaction to this was a bit humorous cause I stumbled upon it in steam and saw the threads with the middle fingers. Later I thought this isn't necessarily a good thing from a consumer stand point. But I think if you give it some time to brew, let the positives of a marketplace ripen, we could be pleasantly surprised.
Now granted, maybe the doomsayers in this thread are right. But at least from my point of view, right now in the present, there is no way to really tell.
I think a lot can be said about the way they are handling this market. Both good and bad. But in any market, shit sinks to the bottom pretty quickly. This should allay people's concerns over time, at least in terms of reliability and quality of mods.
The only way to call off a portion of the dogs is to make the split more equitable. 25% is a joke, simple as that.
funkystudent
Member
I suspect this will just be like the fallout after it turned out the green light system was a flawed mess.
Some time next week Valve and Bethesda will issue a statement saying they will look to make some changes and better guidelines. Then they will go dark on the subject and no changes will ever be made until people really start abusing the system hard.
D
Deleted member 518153
Unconfirmed Member
Skywind's team is doing a stream today on this matter. They've already stated that they won't monetize on Skywind though
CybernatonEvolution
Member
I will not pay a single dime for Steam workshop, and if some mods are removed from Nexus, I will not re-download them/buy them from Steam workshop.
I thought this idea would encourage more dedicated modding tools and mod support from developers, and that the market will sort itself out by only having very specific, large, polished DLC-like paid mods instead of pricing every damn trivial mod (armor mods, minor texture replacement,...etc). Well, nope.
Good one, Bethesda. I will move onto actually functional and fun games; I only modded TES for aesthetics rather than combat.
Oh yeah. Most graphics mods are not that relevant anymore in my opinion (except for SweetFX/Reshade and GEMFX), since almost all devs implement a huge variety of post-processing effects, and games don't actually look as bad as Skyrim's amazing LODs and high polygon assets. Also, some new games (such as dying light) are releasing creation/modding tools, so we will stick to that instead of paying for fishing animation mods.
UE4/UT4 does, and they have horribly priced assets, textures and character models. But these are items that you are supposed to use in creating UE4 video games, and UT4 looks like it has microtransactions; I am not sure whether you can publish your work if you used any of the UE4 market place items though.
I thought this idea would encourage more dedicated modding tools and mod support from developers, and that the market will sort itself out by only having very specific, large, polished DLC-like paid mods instead of pricing every damn trivial mod (armor mods, minor texture replacement,...etc). Well, nope.
Good one, Bethesda. I will move onto actually functional and fun games; I only modded TES for aesthetics rather than combat.
Oh yeah. Most graphics mods are not that relevant anymore in my opinion (except for SweetFX/Reshade and GEMFX), since almost all devs implement a huge variety of post-processing effects, and games don't actually look as bad as Skyrim's amazing LODs and high polygon assets. Also, some new games (such as dying light) are releasing creation/modding tools, so we will stick to that instead of paying for fishing animation mods.
UE4/UT4 does, and they have horribly priced assets, textures and character models. But these are items that you are supposed to use in creating UE4 video games, and UT4 looks like it has microtransactions; I am not sure whether you can publish your work if you used any of the UE4 market place items though.
SneakyStephan
Banned
5 years from now the first guy to set up a filesharing site for pirated mods is going to be in a federal prison in the US.
Someone should make a tax mod where the Imperials or whomever takes 75% of every transaction in the game.
M0G
Member
I'd rather have a donate button on Steam, something where I can show my support but not feel the entitlement of a paying customer. Because that's kinda what it'll be when I pay for a mod, I'll feel like I'm owed something. Before, any mod was a bonus that is made by somebody who owes me nothing now I'm gonna be irritated if I get a mod and it doesn't work, which they sometimes don't or at the very least are problematic.
Like others have said it's an enthusiast scene populated by people who aren't necessarily motivated by hitting targets to make money. Which has become a problem as gaming has become such a massive industry. I think it's great if I can donate to some mods and maybe this is a wake up call to do this more in the future. But if the actual game developers can go relatively unchecked when it goes to quality control and get away with releasing broken products there's unlikely to be any stability in this marketplace. Maybe just find a way where finished mods or mods that have reached a decent 1.0 status can go payable and not let any old crap go through unfiltered.
It wouldn't surprise me if we see a lot more games with mod support in the future. Developers that previously didn't care about modding are gonna want to jump on this and that's obviously good and bad. Let the community repair their game and they'll get a large cut of the sale... while we might actually get some cool mods too. Good and bad.
Like others have said it's an enthusiast scene populated by people who aren't necessarily motivated by hitting targets to make money. Which has become a problem as gaming has become such a massive industry. I think it's great if I can donate to some mods and maybe this is a wake up call to do this more in the future. But if the actual game developers can go relatively unchecked when it goes to quality control and get away with releasing broken products there's unlikely to be any stability in this marketplace. Maybe just find a way where finished mods or mods that have reached a decent 1.0 status can go payable and not let any old crap go through unfiltered.
It wouldn't surprise me if we see a lot more games with mod support in the future. Developers that previously didn't care about modding are gonna want to jump on this and that's obviously good and bad. Let the community repair their game and they'll get a large cut of the sale... while we might actually get some cool mods too. Good and bad.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Oh god all the modders who use the steam workshop should implement this into their mods, then when people wonder why they lose so much money they'll think it's a glitch and complain to Valve/Bethesda about losing 75% of their gold.
StarlordDial
Member
Twitch ? Any link for their stream ?
mercenar1e
Member
This will all blow over after the next steam sale lol
Wholeheartedly agree. All DLCs are paid dlc now, yet, in quality, I don't see any difference between the free DLCs that we used to have a generation ago vs the nickel and diming we have today.
People made mods before out of genuine interested, and let me tell you, you cannot EVER beat quality when it is backed by genuine will. In fact, I'll argue now that people will be making mods for a quick buck, the portals will be saturated with uninspired garbage.
One of the aspects of all this that is easily overlooked, is that not alll modders are equal with this system.
There is a huge portion of modders that are on top of the most popular mod list that will never be able to use this system.
Those are the mods that make so called 'adult mods'.
Sure, laugh at them, dismiss them for being for perverts or pretent they don't even exist, whatever your opinion is about them, there are two very important things you should now about them :
- They require the same amount of time and effort to make than any other mod.
- They have, more than often been at the source of breakthroughs for modders to allow more lore-friendly mods that use their systems to be made.
Modders at the origin of those mods basically have nothing to gain from all this cause their mod certainly will not be accepted, but worse they can't do anything to protect their work from people using it in paid mods in a more acceptable way. (which is a point that's valid for any free mod, and was already abused)
There is a huge portion of modders that are on top of the most popular mod list that will never be able to use this system.
Those are the mods that make so called 'adult mods'.
Sure, laugh at them, dismiss them for being for perverts or pretent they don't even exist, whatever your opinion is about them, there are two very important things you should now about them :
- They require the same amount of time and effort to make than any other mod.
- They have, more than often been at the source of breakthroughs for modders to allow more lore-friendly mods that use their systems to be made.
Modders at the origin of those mods basically have nothing to gain from all this cause their mod certainly will not be accepted, but worse they can't do anything to protect their work from people using it in paid mods in a more acceptable way. (which is a point that's valid for any free mod, and was already abused)
Did they though? I feel like Valve has a huge amount of economists and engineers who thought this through for months, to see if it would be worth it for them
Yes exactly and that's where one of the major issue lies.
If the breakdown numbers are true, it's actually a copy paste of their existing business model. They get 30%, and the remaining 70% is to be split up however the developer wants. Up to 5% of Valve's cut goes towards other mods/service providers modders choose. Supposedly.
They probably think that the market will correct any bad behavior, and that it will also generate interest in making quality mods. That's not going to be the case if the revenue split is so awful. Modding SP games is fundamentally different from creating a skin or weapon for one of their other games, so perhaps they didn't think it totally all the way through.
It also begs the question as to why Valve feels they are entitled to such a large cut. A transaction fee style small percentage? Sure, absolutely. But can anyone make a convincing argument as to why Valve deserves 20% or more for mods?
Clearly you didn't read the FAQ on how the new unreal tournament is working. It's all cosmetic like dota 2 and cs:go for now and stop saying stuff that isn't true. Also the game is for free..no pay 2 win it is free like Dota 2 you get the whole game no strings attached and the engine is free also. And this is all optional and doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest.
http://www.unrealtournament.com/blog/ut-marketplace-faq/
Dorsal Axe
Member
That's the thing that gets me. To use a good example, The Sims series has a community that has been split between a paid and free modding community pretty much since its inception. I can tell you that most of the paid content there is grade A crap, and at best no better than free alternatives. There are certainly no "large-scale" mods on that side of the community (but there are on the free side, because it's much easier to collaborate). Also the paysites are rather nefarious and have a history of launching attacks on the free sites (DDOS, doxxing etc.), so yeah, it's hard to see a bright future for modding with this system being officially sanctioned.
CybernatonEvolution
Member
No I did read the FAQ, and I am aware of what mods are available for UT4; I do play the game too and I downloaded a map from the marketplace. I was talking about the Unreal Engine 4 marketplace, NOT the Unreal Tournament market place.
MattPeters
Member
Midas Magic, which has since been removed from the Workshop, had ads in the free version.
Nice example...
Though did they introduce paid modding after free modding blossomed on that game? Valve should definitely NOT have tried this on an already existing community. They created A LOT of problems because mods were already sharing stuff. If they tried this on a new game and announced it earlier, the backlash would not have been as much. People wouldn't need to worry about their work being stolen, like right now.
People interested in making a buck would try their chances in that new game, and people who wanted to collaborate and share would keep in the free side, knowing that their work could potentially be used in a paid mod, and choose to work with that knowledge in mind. Whether there would be higher quality mods for that game, we'd see.
What Valve did is very disrespectful to existing modders who never had to worry about such things.
When you view yourself as a benevolent force in PC gaming that is giving power and money to the content creators, things get warped. I can see folks at Valve attempting the "25% is better than nothing" argument that others have already tried here, totally missing the point. They've wanted to do this or something like it for a long time now. A big misstep on the first go round doesn't really inspire confidence.
Gathering up a small group of modders and working on this under NDA, then springing it on everyone else, was the wrong thing to do.
Should someone who makes an insanely work intensive mod (2000+ worth of work), be compensated for their work, even though it was a labor of love?
Yes
My issue is that Valve created the shittiest possible system for this to happen. I really hope that the community backlash forces them to rethink their implementation of this system
Yes
My issue is that Valve created the shittiest possible system for this to happen. I really hope that the community backlash forces them to rethink their implementation of this system
Mithos
Member
Vallen Valiant
Banned
Once upon a time, Bethesda wanted you to pay them money for horse armour they made.
Today, Bethesda want you to pay them money for horse armour someone else had made.
You tell me which is worse.
Today, Bethesda want you to pay them money for horse armour someone else had made.
You tell me which is worse.
I wasnt sure what to think about this but now I think this is kind of sad. I'm currently playing through Skyrim decided to try and complete it with a few vital mods. There's no way I would be so carefree with trying and installing mods if I had to pay for them. But that's not to say I wouldn't buy mod's if they were good enough, but it would be annoying to pay for something that is almost required that fixes the game like SkyUI.
I mean everyone deserves to get paid for what they do, but modders never asked for money, they didnt do it for money(at least I think most of them didnt used to). I've attempted to make my own mod's in the past but never got quite finished with them. Because it was free to make and try them I felt there was no burden to try them, so some people might try the mod and like it.
I dont think anyone expected modding to be a full time job it's something you do for fun in your spare time, some people may contribute towards you and they may moan at you about bugs or problem's but they cant expect much because there not paying you and it's just a hobby. But with money involved officially now it's a whole different matter.
Everything has to be a market now everything has to be about money with all the ugly shit it creates. I cant see the modding scene being any better now, better quality mod's were people asking for this, I thought the quality was already quite good. I think there is some merit in the less quality mod's, will this just mean the lesser mod's having no chance now. It just encourages theft backstabbing and desperation for penny's. Yeah mod's were left half finished and incomplete, sometimes they were left open for other's to look at and complete, that's less likely to happen now. Something half complete is better than something not tried at all, money involved may deter certain people from trying at all.
I mean everyone deserves to get paid for what they do, but modders never asked for money, they didnt do it for money(at least I think most of them didnt used to). I've attempted to make my own mod's in the past but never got quite finished with them. Because it was free to make and try them I felt there was no burden to try them, so some people might try the mod and like it.
I dont think anyone expected modding to be a full time job it's something you do for fun in your spare time, some people may contribute towards you and they may moan at you about bugs or problem's but they cant expect much because there not paying you and it's just a hobby. But with money involved officially now it's a whole different matter.
Everything has to be a market now everything has to be about money with all the ugly shit it creates. I cant see the modding scene being any better now, better quality mod's were people asking for this, I thought the quality was already quite good. I think there is some merit in the less quality mod's, will this just mean the lesser mod's having no chance now. It just encourages theft backstabbing and desperation for penny's. Yeah mod's were left half finished and incomplete, sometimes they were left open for other's to look at and complete, that's less likely to happen now. Something half complete is better than something not tried at all, money involved may deter certain people from trying at all.
Rawket Lawnchair
Member
I am crying.
I have no problem at all with people wanting to charge money for the content they are making. Some of the mods out there for Skyrim are practically complete overhauls of the game, or adds content that rival the paid DLC expansions.
My problem however is how valve has now created an environment where there is little oversight, and any idiot can hop on Nexus and steal other people's work and slap together a bundle of other's work and charge money for it. The workshop was already full of useless crap, now they are giving people a monetized incentive to go fill it up with even more useless shit. Also the 25% share for the mod creator is just skeezy.
Also, what the hell is the support structure going to be for future games? I buy a mod and then later the developer updates the game and makes the mod non-functional? What's the incentive of the mod creator to fix his mod and keep comparability? Will steam start to provide access to older versions of games so that I can at least install an older patch and maintain compatibility?
This all just seems like a nightmare that's going to fall flat on its ass, and based on valve's prior track record, I have ZERO faith in them fixing this or for them to provide proper support and oversight.
My problem however is how valve has now created an environment where there is little oversight, and any idiot can hop on Nexus and steal other people's work and slap together a bundle of other's work and charge money for it. The workshop was already full of useless crap, now they are giving people a monetized incentive to go fill it up with even more useless shit. Also the 25% share for the mod creator is just skeezy.
Also, what the hell is the support structure going to be for future games? I buy a mod and then later the developer updates the game and makes the mod non-functional? What's the incentive of the mod creator to fix his mod and keep comparability? Will steam start to provide access to older versions of games so that I can at least install an older patch and maintain compatibility?
This all just seems like a nightmare that's going to fall flat on its ass, and based on valve's prior track record, I have ZERO faith in them fixing this or for them to provide proper support and oversight.
Anybody want to build "Monetized Steam Workshop Wonder" in Civ V? Thanks to glorious modder, now you can*.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=431253630
*grab it while it's free
Several years from know things might have calmed down, but Valve will always remembered for their effort in pushing paid mods and changing PC modding scene forever.
It could be good, it could be DLC 2.0. We will see.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=431253630
*grab it while it's free
Several years from know things might have calmed down, but Valve will always remembered for their effort in pushing paid mods and changing PC modding scene forever.
It could be good, it could be DLC 2.0. We will see.
Midas Magic, which has since been removed from the Workshop, had ads in the free version.
shareware in 2015?
I don't think this move has much to do with Skyrim, really. What they're doing now is breaking the news, testing the system, getting the drama and kinks out the way, and when the dust has settled and everyone is tired of arguing, then we'll see what this is really about.
They're aiming for the future and Beth are involved, so Fallout 4 seems like a good bet.
NotoriousPUG
Member
That's up to Bethesda. A modder can get the majority, but that's dictated by each individual publisher.
Calling this shareware would be an insult to shareware.
Vallen Valiant
Banned
And that's exactly the problem. Bethesda is now trying to turn someone else's mod into paid DLC. All without paying a dime or doing any work themselves.
I already paid my damn full priced game. If I want to I can donate to modders directly. No way in hell would I give Bethesda extra money for work they didn't do.
It would be like needing to pay the land lord a cut every time I bought new furniture for my house. That would be crazy.
I think Valve had good intentions, but made some serious missteps.
First, the 75% cut is an insult. If Bethesda won't enter this deal without a 50% cut of every sale, then there was no deal to be made. They should have approached other publisher, or started with one of their own IPs. Once the market brings decent numbers, big-name publishers will approach Valve with more reasonable offers.
Second, approaching top modders to build the first sale items under a heavy time constraint was a big mistake. Regardless of their intentions, many will take their existing mods, make a new version, and put a price tag in things that were previously free. This sends out the wrong message.
Third, the IP issue should have been seriously researched and explained upfront. A mod with a price tag should contain only original content, and, in my humble opinion, should not rely on third party content at all (except the original game). This is how the consumer expects downloaded content to work. If a mod is not made this way, as is usually the case, it should remain free.
There is big potential in a mod store. It can bring new things from new people who had the expertise but did not have the time or incentive before. People who do things because it is fun will still be around. Sure, some of them will put a price tag on things that would have been free before, but more often than not, they will also invest additional care and time in them. I'm convinced the sum is positive for the player.
In addition, a mod shop can bring better mod support from developers. Every big feature in a big name game exists because it was, at some point, a sound business case in someone's desk. Modding is not different. While Bethesda traditionally enjoyed long tail sales in PC, arguably thanks to modding, with the current console focus I wonder if the case for a creation kit has been a harsh fight. Making modding into a revenue stream of its own makes it a no-brainer, and not only for Bethesda.
First, the 75% cut is an insult. If Bethesda won't enter this deal without a 50% cut of every sale, then there was no deal to be made. They should have approached other publisher, or started with one of their own IPs. Once the market brings decent numbers, big-name publishers will approach Valve with more reasonable offers.
Second, approaching top modders to build the first sale items under a heavy time constraint was a big mistake. Regardless of their intentions, many will take their existing mods, make a new version, and put a price tag in things that were previously free. This sends out the wrong message.
Third, the IP issue should have been seriously researched and explained upfront. A mod with a price tag should contain only original content, and, in my humble opinion, should not rely on third party content at all (except the original game). This is how the consumer expects downloaded content to work. If a mod is not made this way, as is usually the case, it should remain free.
There is big potential in a mod store. It can bring new things from new people who had the expertise but did not have the time or incentive before. People who do things because it is fun will still be around. Sure, some of them will put a price tag on things that would have been free before, but more often than not, they will also invest additional care and time in them. I'm convinced the sum is positive for the player.
In addition, a mod shop can bring better mod support from developers. Every big feature in a big name game exists because it was, at some point, a sound business case in someone's desk. Modding is not different. While Bethesda traditionally enjoyed long tail sales in PC, arguably thanks to modding, with the current console focus I wonder if the case for a creation kit has been a harsh fight. Making modding into a revenue stream of its own makes it a no-brainer, and not only for Bethesda.
Yeah, good intentions, sure.
And You wrote that like Valve should be entitled to 25% of mod revenue, they shouldnt!
Actually Bethesda has much more rights to get 50% then Valve to get 25%.
Inkvoterad
Member
Midas Magic, which has since been removed from the Workshop, had ads in the free version.
Ahaha jesus christ, fucking doomed.
Not really. They didn't think further than monetary gain. There were no good intentions involved. It's just another way for Valve to profit off the work of others. It's what the company has been about for years. Be the middle men that does none of the work while reaping the profits.
The fact that this entire thing crashed and burned and all the goodwill Valve had spent a decade building came crashing down in a matter of days is telling of their intentions. Valve isn't the good guys. There are no good guys. Ultimately, they all want you to open up your wallets. This is why I wrote last page that the current model is unsustainable. We need something that can act in favor of the players rather than the publishers. What that is, I don't know. But the current model is a sinking ship when publishers and distributors can on a whim kill community-shared modding overnight.
lighthouse777
Member
I have seen a lot of anger in various forums over this
interesting to say the least
I do not have a personal comment as I do not use mods
interesting to say the least
I do not have a personal comment as I do not use mods
Not really. Valve offers the platform and has to deal with bank fees etc. Bethsoft is basically getting free expansions/dlc for absolutely zero effort or cost.
First post
You do realize many of the people who support money mods never actually played FNV, FO3, Skyrim and more with 200+ mods like you? They think you can choose one mod, pay 5$-10$ and be done with it. They don't understand it will cost us 500$-1000$ to get the same experience as we have now.
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