Support NeoGAF

[Fox318]

I believe in the article linked in the OP, there are quotes from NAACP members who knew what was up but essentially let it play out because nobody quite knew just what the fuck they were supposed to do with the situation.

So this is all a case of

"Man... I don't know what to say or ask, you do it"

"I'm not going there you do it"


For years

 

[Coins]

This is such a peculiar issue, largely because I'm a moderate that often asks why society condemns or condones certain behavior or actions.

A man seeks to be identified by a new gender? She gets celebrated on a magazine cover.
A woman seeks to be identified by a new race? She gets laughed at and ridiculed by and large.

I see very little difference between the issue of self-identity (outside of how society views both sex and race); two individuals both are unhappy with their prescribed race/gender and, through effort, decides to live as an identity they are happy with.

I question how the same people who praise Bruce Jenner becoming Caitlyn can be the same people who instantly think a woman living as black has a "mental illness".

Transgender and transethnic I think are interesting discussions, not just about the individuals who "pretend" to live as something else, but as those that judge, praise, or condemn these individuals for doing what they want with their body, their lives, to feel happy with themselves.

How we views others says a lot about us as well.

There is no issue. Transgender people have a body formed in one way and a mind formed another way. The options of male and female are present during early formation. Two white people can't make a black person. On the inside or outside. The option just isn't there. This is a bunch of bullshit. Next week we are going to have a dude pissing on a fire hydrant because he says he's a canine and people will defend it.

 

[Messofanego]

This is how i feel about Shia Labeouf. I refuse to laugh at his antics that go viral because im not sure if he is trolling or legit mentally ill.

He's doing the Andy Kaufman performance thing, committed to it. He did fuck up an year or so ago with the plagiarism and did some other stuff for which he went to prison which he's talked about on video (Jimmy Kimmel, Ellen where he's totally chill in these interviews), but most of it is him just messing around as evident from those linked interviews. Some of that has gone too far, like when he did an art piece where he asked people to do whatever to him in a room with implements and one person raped him but he kept on going to maintain the piece although didn't obviously like it afterwards on reflection. He's feeding off on the weird persona of him out there.

I don't know whether this Rachel is a compulsive, pathological liar so I'd rather lay off the mental diagnoses just yet until a professional declares her to be so.

 

[DeathoftheEndless]

know what popped in my head while reading more and more about her, Münchausen syndrome by proxy. Not the exact thing but seems like they could be related.

I had the same idea because her self-esteem issues are causing her to go to extreme lengths for sympathy.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Actually, I take back what I said, she may very well have a mental illness.

But I'm not going to treat her with padded gloves because of that; what she did was wrong and it negatively affect a lot of people. An entire organization's rep has been further damaged.

And the people in her life that allowed it, well, I've got nothing good to say about them.

 

[Cabbagehead]

There is no issue. Transgender people have a body formed in one way and a mind formed another way. The options of male and female are present during early formation. Two white people can't make a black person. On the inside or outside. The option just isn't there. This is a bunch of bullshit. Next week we are going to have a dude pissing on a fire hydrant because he says he's a canine and people will defend it.

Fuck that lol

 

[DoktorEvil]

So this is all a case of

"Man... I don't know what to say or ask, you do it"

"I'm not going there you do it"

For years

Silicon Valley has a good bit about this in S2.

I'm convinced that no one wanted to call her on it because it would've been their job lost.

 

[JustenP88]

Nah on the mental illness. That goes out the window when she outright made social progress by doing what she was doing. Husband, kids, head of a chapter of the NAACP.

Mental illness comes in many forms, but most of the time it's self-destructive or something to be mitigated. She made a life out of this, climbed social ladders because of this.

... And now her career is likely going to be destroyed by her delusion when she could've just been a white person who advocates for racial equality. This is self-destructive behavior. Her race wasn't holding her back from anything. She could still marry a black man, have black children, fight the good equality fight and wear her hair however the hell she wants all while still being comfortable with saying "I'm a white woman." This was obviously never going to last. It was obviously going to blow up in her face. Any sane person could've told her that from day one.

Edit : nevermind, just saw your clarification. I agree with the padded gloves thing to the extent that nobody should just accept it and let her delusion continue. Regardless of whether she's a completely sane person with malicious intent, or legitimately mentally ill, her behavior absolutely needs to be corrected. I just don't feel entirely comfortable mocking her for this. Of course, fuck her completely if it somehow comes out that this was all a deliberate plot from a sane mind. No empathy, and certainly no sympathy, should be wasted on that.

The friends/family/coworkers thing is almost as confusing to me. I mean, her husband knows what's up, right? Her kids? Her friends? If they don't, how the hell did she pull that off?

 

[Garlador]

You don't seem to get what going on beyond just whats on the surface. Its her actions in order to get there. Her lies.

Oh, absolutely, those are definitely questionable and wrong.

But that's not what I'm talking about. A LOT of the comments on this issue don't know about the crazy things she did to "earn" acceptance as a black woman.

But the core, simplified issue behind it - altering one's identity into something they prefer - remains a similar platform.

I mean, if you pick any self-identity, you have individuals that go to extremes; that doesn't negate the struggles for acceptance and unhappiness at the root of their issues. Extremes and crazy actions of individuals often overshadow and define the legitimate issues of countless others.

There is no issue. Transgender people have a body formed in one way and a mind formed another way. The options of male and female are present during early formation. Two white people can't make a black person. On the inside or outside. The option just isn't there. This is a bunch of bullshit. Next week we are going to have a dude pissing on a fire hydrant because he says he's a canine and people will defend it.

One of my best friends is black. And albino. He's whiter than I am due to a genetic condition and many people don't know that he's black. It's astounding how different he's treated based on his skin color, even among "fellow black people" who don't know about him.
He looks very much like this:

I know we love to see issues as black and white (heh), but it's more complicated than that. I myself know plenty of black people who "wished they were lighter" and many white people who "wished they were darker". Hormones and sex are but one of many genetic stamps of a human body, with race also being a major factor in shaping a person and their upbringing.

 

[Alienous]

I'm inclined to think that people should be able to pick their own labels.

It would seem she was living a more fulfilling and happy life as a black woman. The only issue I take is with the deceit, but there was probably no other way to be viewed as a black woman.

 

[Tubie]

At first I thought this story was super funny, but I'm starting to feel sorry for her, since she clearly has some issues to deal with.

 

[Into]

I used fucking weirdos for people who get all worked up about the fact that some other person they don't even know identifies as a horse or a tree or a dragon or whatever. For example, I find it somewhat odd that people like to watch men in booty shorts pretend to fight each other but I don't rant about how awful it is and it's all liberals fault. It doesn't affect me so it doesn't bother me.

Was i really "worked up"? You seem far more worked up here than i am. I simply stated that it would be beneficial to draw a line between people who suffer from dysphoria and the tumblr kids who identify as plants.
You seem to hate conservatives as that is your entire angle, you have yet to really participate in the actual discussion regarding this woman.

"It's self-explanatory" is not an argument, BTW.

Oh in this case, just the word "horsekin" is enough to end any discussion. I dont have to argue anything, the word itself does it for me.

 

[Azih]

I'm inclined to think that people should be able to pick their own labels.

She's living life more happily as a black woman. The only issue I take is with the deceit, but there was probably no other way to be viewed as a black woman.

But what if black people aren't happy about that?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

But what if black people aren't happy about that?

There is a significant community of women who aren't happy with transgender women.

 

[Supermanisdead]

There is a significant community of women who aren't happy with transgender women.

Pls stop

 

[DECK'ARD]

There is a significant community of women who aren't happy with transgender women.

Stop doing this.

 

[Ray Wonder]

I saw someone on my facebook feed seriously arguing the "Trans-gender is the same as this" argument.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Pls stop

Pls make argument.

 

[Cabbagehead]

But what if black people aren't happy about that?

Right shes trying to represent a race that shes not, no matter how much she feels that she's black. Societal construct or not, its real to a lot of people.

 

[DoktorEvil]

At first I thought this story was super funny, but I'm starting to feel sorry for her, since she clearly has some issues to deal with.

So does everyone else in the world, but she's not proven to be mentally incompetent/deficient by a psychologist/psychiatrist yet.

 

[wildfire]

Ummm not really race is a biological contruct. It is SPECIFICALLY a biological trait. If tomorrow all humans lost all ability to think or reason or communicate. Race would still be a characteristic of our bodies.

Gender on the other hand is completely social construct. In that gender refers to how you act, how you feel, how you dress, etc

Transexuals don't actually change their sex. They technically change their gender and sometimes their genitals. Sex (scientifically) refers to the size of the gametes produced by the body. In simple terms females produce large gametes and males produce smaller gametes.

themoreyouknow

I had a whole list of joke posts I wanted to applaud but I have to be serious again.

The state of being transgender or transsexual is biological. There have been studies on brain scans that clearly show people with biological male or female bodies have brains that are more similar to the opposite sex. They aren't pretending anything.


The reason all of these criticisms come up about some of these negative comments sound like the same douchbags who cry about transgendered individuals is due to the fact in both cases the people believe the subject is pretending.


So let's stop acting as if trans people are making shit up.

As for this woman, I'm siding more along the lines that she wants to be this way more than she is pretending. Even though she may or may not be pretending she has done certain things that are harmful. Does the harm she bring invalidate all the other good work she has done? Hell no. She's much better activist than myself and the vast majority of people that want to overlook her other contributions to making society better.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Is this the real life?

 

[Messofanego]

Is this the real life?

Is this just fantasy?

 

[Cabbagehead]

I had a whole list of joke posts I wanted to applaud but I have to be serious again.

The state of being transgender or transsexual is biological. There have been studies on brain scans that clearly show people with biological male or female bodies have brains that are more similar to the opposite sex. They aren't pretending anything.


The reason all of these criticisms come up about some of these negative comments sound like the same douchbags who cry about transgendered individuals is due to the fact in both cases the people believe the subject is pretending.


So let's stop acting as if trans people are making shit up.

As for this woman, I'm siding more along the lines that she wants to be this way more than she is pretending. Even though she may or may not be pretending she has done certain things that are harmful. Does the harm she bring invalidate all the other good work she has done? Hell no. She's much better activist than myself and the vast majority of people that want to overlook her other contributions to making society better.

The ends does not justify the means.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Pls make argument.

Simple, she got a position of leadership in the NAACP under the premise that she was black. Under the premise of a fake identity.

Her lies provided political capital, that's the problem. The great things she did could have been done without her trying to be someone she's not.


And if not, then that just makes what she did worse.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Simple, she got a position of leadership in the NAACP under the premise that she was black. Under the premise of a fake identity.

Her lies provided political capital, that's the problem.

The NAACP has explicitly said it wasn't because she was black.

I mean, I don't like that she lied, but I don't think that she benefited from it, unless we're arguing being a black woman is more advantageous in modern America than being a white woman.

 

[DrROBschiz]

This isnt even a transethic issue even if such a thing does exist

Her behaviour is borderline sociopathic with all the lies beyond just the big and obvious one

 

[rtcn63]

If the show was still around, I'd love an episode based off of this whole thing. The ending "analysis" with Jimmy and the perpetrator...

 

[JDSN]

Hey guys, are gonna continue this quest to explain how black society is inconsistent when it comes to passing judgement on this woman while letting all the transgenders go uncheck maybe. Maybe talk about other races trying to look like others? You could talk about koreans for a while, I dont know.

 

[Cabbagehead]

The NAACP has explicitly said it wasn't because she was black.

I mean, I don't like that she lied, but I don't think that she benefited from it, unless we're arguing being a black woman is more advantageous in modern America than being a white woman.

Lets be real here. NAACP will say anything though at this point and on average or by facts the board members of that organization a black by and large.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

... And now her career is likely going to be destroyed by her delusion when she could've just been a white person who advocates for racial equality. This is self-destructive behavior. Her race wasn't holding her back from anything. She could still marry a black man, have black children, fight the good equality fight and wear her hair however the hell she wants all while still being comfortable with saying "I'm a white woman." This was obviously never going to last. It was obviously going to blow up in her face. Any sane person could've told her that from day one.

And any sociopath would likely take that under advisement as "you better tell a dozen more lies so as to not get caught" and do it all anyway.

But having sympathy for sociopaths, like I mentioned earlier, isn't really useful for healthy people. Healthy people, bound by "normal" morals and/or fears of consequences, simply can't have social relationships with sociopaths. Any kind of sympathy given to a sociopath is just opening a window, enabling more manipulation.

 

[King Mystery]

Gazi Kodzo has already struck. LOL.

 

[J10]

The cops seem to know what a black person is.

Hiring managers seem to know what a black person is.

The prison industrial complex seems to know what a black person is.

Gentrification seems to know what a black person is.

I wonder if any of these entities have been given as much pause as some of the people in this thread.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Spokane Washington is racist as shit dog. My previous boss who had to work there for a couple years could not get out of there fast enough. Eastern Washington is pretty fucked up in regards to racism.

I've lived in Spokane for almost 30 years and that hasn't been my experience. Granted I'm white but it's not like I don't hear others talking or see them acting or read the news. Any place with a large racial majority (90%+) is going to have some issues but the south this ain't.

 

[Kraftwerk]

kek

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

The NAACP has explicitly said it wasn't because she was black.

I mean, I don't like that she lied, but I don't think that she benefited from it, unless we're arguing being a black woman is more advantageous in modern America than being a white woman.

If they want to deny that her acting as if she was black didn't have at least some influence, that's on them.

Regardless, she DID benefit from it. She was allowed to behave in that space differently and was given a very different level of access because she lied about her race.

 

[Opiate]

And any sociopath would likely take that under advisement as "you better tell a dozen more lies so as to not get caught" and do it all anyway.

But having sympathy for sociopaths, like I mentioned earlier, isn't really useful for healthy people. Healthy people, bound by "normal" morals and/or fears of consequences, simply can't have social relationships with sociopaths. Any kind of sympathy given to a sociopath is just opening a window, enabling more manipulation.

Okay, now we've gone through "we can't prove she's crazy" all the way to "I know she has a mental illness, and I'm confident I know precisely which illness that is."

 

[Alienous]

I still think she is basically Batman.

She's in a heavily white area and decided to live this life to help out as best she could let. Galvanise people, you could say.

It probably all started in her study when the Fresh Prince of Bel Air suddenly appeared on television. "Yes, father, I shall become a black" she probably said with resolute determination.

Spoiler

/jk

 

[numble]

The NAACP has explicitly said it wasn't because she was black.

I mean, I don't like that she lied, but I don't think that she benefited from it, unless we're arguing being a black woman is more advantageous in modern America than being a white woman.

I don't know why you're looking at statistics instead of the individual instance. The Ivy League schools have mechanisms for rooting out people from falsely claiming to be of black or Native American race in order to get a boost on admission applications, for instance.

 

[davepoobond]

So you have to be black to be head of an NAACP division?

 

[KingK]

Sorry if I come of as combative, some of the comments when it comes to this subjects come from a place of purposeful ignorance and equivocation. The topic its pretty complicated as it is, when it comes to "lying" there is a huge amount of types to it, ive once had a patient that faked a pregnancy to the point that she began to lactate. On the transgender biological differences I dont know much about the subject but this kinda helps to grasp how complex it is.


I do feel sorry for her, and I kinda regret mocking her on the first few pages of this thread, but then again im not black and im not gonna try to sell black people here how this is not worthy of their outrage because at some level its hurting them too.

No hard feelings. I've been pretty hostile towards people I suspected of willful ignorance in police/racism threads before so I know where you're coming from.

I guess for me it's just that, while I have plenty of friends of different races and a couple of gay friends, I've never even met a transgender person (as far as I know). In addition I've read tons of material about racial issues but I've pretty much never done any research about transgender issues. So even though my instincts said that you can't really compare being transgender to what this woman did, (assuming there is something going on in her head to compel her to do this. At this point I think she might just have a mental disorder) I didn't feel I knew enough to articulate reasons why they are different, and the previous arguments didn't seem very compelling based on how they mirrored discussions I have seen on transgender issues.

However, the point about parentage/ancestry playing a bigger role in racial identity than gender identity, and some more info about how/when trans people tend to form their identity and the possibility of a biological component have helped to draw a distinction between the scenarios.

 

[rhandino]

No, Mia. No. I see this shit has already begun. What an interesting next few weeks we have.

This is reaching places, I can't deal with this hahahahaha

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Okay, now we've gone through "we can't prove she's crazy" all the way to "I know she has a mental illness, and I'm confident I know precisely which illness that is."

That's not what I said at all. If you read my original post, I laid out why I SUSPECT that this would be the likely disorder, but I don't claim to know it for certain.

All I'm saying is all mental illnesses should not be met with reflexive sympathy.

 

[wildfire]

The ends does not justify the means.

*shrugs*

The means don't erase the ends.

 

[DoktorEvil]

The NAACP has explicitly said it wasn't because she was black.

I mean, I don't like that she lied, but I don't think that she benefited from it, unless we're arguing being a black woman is more advantageous in modern America than being a white woman.

http://www.naacp.org/press/entry/naacp-statement-on-rachel-dolezal

Baltimore, MD – For 106 years, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People has held a long and proud tradition of receiving support from people of all faiths, races, colors and creeds. NAACP Spokane Washington Branch President Rachel Dolezal is enduring a legal issue with her family, and we respect her privacy in this matter. One’s racial identity is not a qualifying criteria or disqualifying standard for NAACP leadership. The NAACP Alaska-Oregon-Washington State Conference stands behind Ms. Dolezal’s advocacy record. In every corner of this country, the NAACP remains committed to securing political, educational, and economic justice for all people, and we encourage Americans of all stripes to become members and serve as leaders in our organization.

Hate language sent through mail and social media along with credible threats continue to be a serious issue for our units in the Pacific Northwest and across the nation. We take all threats seriously and encourage the FBI and the Department of Justice to fully investigate each occurrence.

Her racial identity. Doesn't say anything about presumed racial identity.

They don't know what to make of it either, but you should totally join and support the NAACP.

 

[FStop7]

Al Jolson wasn't a racist fuck, he was just ahead of his time.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

She taught Africana Studies. This is some Zola level infiltration.

 

[Nosgotham]

Is this an onion article?

My first thought lol
Can people identify with another race in the same manner people identify with another sex and set out to change their outward appearance to match how they feel inside? Is that a thing?

 

[Dude Abides]

Was i really "worked up"? You seem far more worked up here than i am. I simply stated that it would be beneficial to draw a line between people who suffer from dysphoria and the tumblr kids who identify as plants.

No you didn't do anything of the sort but ok.

You seem to hate conservatives as that is your entire angle, you have yet to really participate in the actual discussion regarding this woman.

Not conservatives, only the busybody type of conservative that has a problem with the notion of live and let live. But you're correct that this is a tangent, so I'll leave you to be angry about tumblr in peace.

]Oh in this case, just the word "horsekin" is enough to end any discussion. I dont have to argue anything, the word itself does it for me.

"I can't" is usually more accurate than "I don't have to," as we see here.

 

[Alienous]

She just brought a black guy into a class to ramble about shit while she said that person was her father?

Oof, whatever comes of this she needs help. This seems more delusional than self-identifying.