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[El_Cinefilo]

But it's not that simple.
We still don't have a clear answer about what Sonys stake in all this is. We don't really know how much of the funding will come from the kickstarter and how much will come from outside investors. It's *clearly* impossible to make a descent Shenmue sequel for 2-10 million, so where is the rest of the money coming from? Why is he stating that most of the funding will come from the kickstarter, when that seems totally impossible if Suzuki doesn't have some kind of wierd game dev sweatshop set up in a developing country somewhere?

In general, this whole ordeal needs way more transparency for me to be able to fund it with a clean conscience. I care about Shenmue, but care about not being mislead and/or milked for cash too.

While we don't know the details SONY were pretty clear in saying they were helping market the game, Witcher 3's budget was $15 million before marketing so Yu Suzuki saying getting $2m from kickstarter would make the game essentially just the story and $10m would be the full open world he envisions sounds about right.

I don't really get why everyones jumping on Shenmue for this, Do people think Yooka Laylee was going to be made just with the £175k it's target was or Bloodstained with it's $500k target? how much extra funding are they getting?

 

[GifGafIsTheBestGaf]

this was interesting, was it already posted?

 

[vpance]

People talking about slowdown...

This is the funding schedule for the most successful video game Kickstarter ever.

Just stare at that for awhile until it sinks in. This is how this works.

Eyeballing it, it looks like the most money actually comes from the middle. The "boring" days that is. Like 30% 40% 30%

 

[Endo Punk]

Hmm.. I think he probably went with SCE because he has friends there like Mark Cerny. It would be a shame if SCE doesn't at least provide enough to get a 10 million budget behind the game. Do it for a friend, you clearly want it to exist too.

 

[Shion]

They need to do a better job with the campaign, it has been awfully quiet so far.

- Give us more meaningful updates.
- Get some more tiers in there.
- Do a live playthrough of Shenmue and Shenmue II on Twitch (with live commentary from Suzuki).

 

[Chaos17]

They should have been more transparent from the start, but at least the answers to questions are beginning to trickle in.

I partly blame the people who made/written the Kicstarter page.
@FFStv who were organizing for Bloodstained did a really good jo abou the PR and announced from the start the collab with Dice.

We really need to push Shenmue 3 PR (seems we can't can't on Sony to handle that part leaving Yu alone >.>) of kickstarter to redo the presentation so to make things clearer at least.

 

[20cent]

So they are not expecting to sell any amount of copies besides the KS backers? They want to be profitable before the release? Maybe that's the idea of Kickstarter, but still...

 

[Bunta]

So they are not expecting to sell any amount of copies besides the KS backers? They want to be profitable before the release? Maybe that's the idea of Kickstarter, but still...

Huh?

 

[JonathanNemo]

this was interesting, was it already posted?

Yo, read the project updates. This was #6, from two days ago.

Ryan Payton's was even earlier. These people have a lot of love for Shenmue, Cerny was on hand to translate the Shenmue postmortem from GDC 2014.

 

[Walpurgis]

I think it's time Polygon gets banned from neogaf. They've been a thorn in our sides for far too long.

 

[border]

While we don't know the details SONY were pretty clear in saying they were helping market the game, Witcher 3's budget was $15 million before marketing so Yu Suzuki saying getting $2m from kickstarter would make the game essentially just the story and $10m would be the full open world he envisions sounds about right.

The Wticher 3's budget was 32 million dollars.

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2015/06/10/report-the-witcher-3-budget-was-67-million/
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=586441

 

[SigSig]

So they are not expecting to sell any amount of copies besides the KS backers? They want to be profitable before the release? Maybe that's the idea of Kickstarter, but still...

It doesn't work this way for developers. You need to actually, like, pay your employees.

 

[harSon]

But all of those things are true, and explicitly true. It is not their project. They are going to make it a reality (they are providing development and marketing support). YsNet reached their Kickstarter goal and the project is going to happen.

The only "narrative" now is regarding how MUCH game can be made on the budget they set. But that is something backers have to consider, not non-backers. If backers are comfortable with the project with the information they have, then this is not an issue of transparency.

Everyone read into the "Sony is involved" nonsense three days ago and made up so much garbage regarding financing and risk that they do not understand or have details on. All of the details are out there.

I know all of those things are explicitly true. Which is why I said the that several narratives could be spun from how the information was fed to us, and that's due to the fact that it was not explicitly clear what it all meant. The actual meaning of all of it has definitely begun to take form, and it's easy to view those comments in hindsight and extract the truth from them, but as things were unfolding - that was definitely no easy deed due to the opaque nature of the Kickstarter.

To be perfectly honest, I'm more bothered by Yu Suzuki's latest comments mentioning that $10 million is needed to provided a truly open world experience. The Kickstarter says:

"No, we cannot make an open world game for $2 million. Shenmue will be produced using both the funds raised from the Kickstarter and through other funding sources already secured by Ys Net Inc. We are very sorry, but due to contractual obligations, details of outside investments will not be disclosed."

At best, this says that open world gameplay can not be constructed within the confines of a $2 million budget - but due to outside funding - the game is going to have open world gameplay. Shenmue is synonymous with open world gameplay, considering its an innovator within that genre of video games. I'm not sure about other people, but I didn't know open world gameplay was even on the chopping block and dependent on funding to come to fruition. It's not mentioned anywhere, and that $10 million figure isn't even a stretch goal. That's the type of opaqueness I'm talking about. I suppose one can assume these things to be the case, but when you're vague with your messaging and force others to read between the lines for answers - you have no one to blame but yourself if they come away with it with the wrong message.

 

[Jhn]

You are not being milked. That's embarrassing, don't say that shit. Jesus.

It's a perfectly valid word to use considering the circumstances. Because of how it was announced on Sonys conference, and because of the low initial funding goal, it was originally a pretty safe bet to assume that the vast majority of the funding was already in place, but they were for some reason hiding it. Which would mean that the kickstarter was unnecessarily milking the core fanbase.

Now, obviously, based on the AMA it seems this is not the case.
But something still feels weird about this whole thing. I just want the facts on the table.

You clearly have expectations for the final product as compared to others who just want ANY product.

Maybe? Would the rest of you really be happy with anything?
At such a low goal, you'd not get much more than an extremely bare-bones continuation of the story. Shenmue wasn't good solely because of it's story. I just want it to live up to its predecessors.

 

[ShenmueNextGen]

Maybe people WANT to expect the day when Shenmue 3 will be just an interactive novel, and when asked why it didn't developed into a full form open world game, Yu Suzuki will simply point at the Kickstarter funds, and when they will tell him about Sony, a Sony PR will pop in and say "except from the marketing perspective, we never said we will fund the development of the game; so simple".

That's why Yu Suzuki says ("it is in your hands"):

 

[Y2Kev]

you have no one to blame but yourself if they come away with it with the wrong message.

But who is blaming anyone? All of the backers are not dissatisfied or they would not be contributing. Non-backers concerned about the type of game Suzuki can make?

 

[20cent]

It doesn't work this way for developers. You need to actually, like, pay your employees.

So banks/loans/investors don't exist in the developers' world? If every people/companies only relied on their cash on hands, banks or the whole current economy would collapse.

I understand the logic for a 2 guys-company making a $5,000 bicycle light project on KS, but we are talking about a worldwidely famous and experienced guy working in the #1 money generator entertainment field who has the support of an electronic giant and raised 3 millions $ in less than 24 hours.

 

[Walpurgis]

The Wticher 3's budget was 32 million dollars.

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2015/06/10/report-the-witcher-3-budget-was-67-million/
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=586441

The original budget was $15 million (before all of the delays and all that). Obviously Shenmue III won't be as ambitious so $10 million should be enough to make a proper open world game.

 

[JonathanNemo]

It's a perfectly valid word to use considering the circumstances. Because of how it was announced on Sonys conference, and because of the low initial funding goal, it was originally a pretty safe bet to assume that the vast majority of the funding was already in place, but they were for some reason hiding it. Which would mean that the kickstarter was unnecessarily milking the core fanbase.

Now, obviously, based on the AMA it seems this is not the case.
But something still feels weird about this whole thing. I just want the facts on the table.

Going to agree with Mr. Y2K here. If some uncredited support is a deal breakers for yous, this is not your project to back.

It's really not uncommon at all for some financiers to provide support on the condition of anonymity. And we're not stock holders, we're putting money in a Kickstarter project. The money gets taken, anything that happens after that is by their own good graces. They aren't even obligated to deliver a final product or backer rewards on time, they're all estimates provided on trust. That's how Kickstarter works.

Some perspective here.

Unless you have a fortune in oil or something and you're willing to provide a cool couple million to Yu2 on your own terms, maybe then you have more leeway to demand transparency! But we're each individually kicking in a really goddamn small amount of the money needed to get this thing off the ground, through a system that's only a little more professional looking than Paypal donations.

Suzuki tried delivering Shenmue III through other ways. This is the only one that took flight. You can wait for another ship if you'd like, but I think this is the only one that's going to fly.

 

[publicpwnerer]

I think it's time Polygon gets banned from neogaf. They've been a thorn in our sides for far too long.

This sounds like a quote from a morning cartoon villain. I heartily agree



More importantly, what about any semblance of integrity? Surely they'd (Polygon / other shit sites) have to be aware of the harm they can they can do. Do they get off on causing a stir, or do they just not care?

People feel I was being overly dramatic before, but I can't be the only that's the least big frustrated. Since the announcement, I've been pretty emotional...hold me GAF. Also, I think this needs to be hyperlinked into the GAF "Believe" logo

[img]http://i.imgur.com/uu9ckeF.png[/img]

 

[Trojan X]

Going to agree with Mr. Y2K here. If some uncredited support is a deal breakers for yous, this is not your project to back.

It's really not uncommon at all for some financiers to provide support on the condition of anonymity. And we're not stock holders, we're putting money in a Kickstarter project. The money gets taken, anything that happens after that is by their own good graces. They aren't even obligated to deliver a final product or backer rewards on time, they're all estimates provided on trust. That's how Kickstarter works.

Some perspective here.

Unless you have a fortune in oil or something and you're willing to provide a cool couple million to Yu2 on your own terms, maybe then you have more leeway to demand transparency! But we're each individually kicking in a really goddamn small amount of the money needed to get this thing off the ground, through a system that's only a little more professional looking than Paypal donations.

Suzuki tried delivering Shenmue III through other ways. This is the only one that took flight. You can wait for another ship if you'd like, but I think this is the only one that's going to fly.

However it is not like you are funding and getting nothing in return unlike most other kickstarters. You are getting the actual game so nothing is lost!

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

If Shenmue 3 is happening, then you know anything is possible!

And it will be possible if people who loves games keep being positive, support it monetarily as much as they can (because how great Shenmue 3 will be depends only on that), keep spreading the news around and encouraging fellows to support it.

We can do it!

Good work! More of this in this thread please!

Let's start by spreading this all over social media (Twitter, Facebook, gaming forums etc). Lets stay positive and get this done!

 

[P90]

Damn. They're not gonna make it. Seems to have much less of a push then something like Bloodstained.

Maybe because more people are interested in an Igavania game than Shenmue 3? Maybe releasing Shenmue 3 on more platforms would widen its appeal? Just a couple thoughts.

 

[anexanhume]

At least they have a great engine (UE4) that doesn't have upfront licensing costs.

I wonder how much effort they spent on their dreamcast engine? And all of the prototyping they did on Saturn.

 

[Boke1879]

You know what. Even though I game on PS4 I may up my pledge to $100 towards the en in order to get that physical game and LE

 

[border]

The original budget was $15 million (before all of the delays and all that). Obviously Shenmue III won't be as ambitious so $10 million should be enough to make a proper open world game.

If they couldn't actually build the Witcher 3 on a $15 million budget with an experienced staff and a lot of their design work done for them, I'm not sure why CDProject's title should be held up as an example of a micro-budget open world game. The delays are not just unfortunate happenstance that was beyond their control.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

Aww man, haven't seen armchair video game budget experts this bad since skullgirls kickstarter.

 

[DooMAGE]

We are paying Sony to publish the game lol

 

[HighResTomato]

I think it's time Polygon gets banned from neogaf. They've been a thorn in our sides for far too long.

Because of an opinion piece?

 

[Jhn]

Going to agree with Mr. Y2K here. If some uncredited support is a deal breakers for yous, this is not your project to back.

It's really not uncommon at all for some financiers to provide support on the condition of anonymity. And we're not stock holders, we're putting money in a Kickstarter project. The money gets taken, anything that happens after that is by their own good graces. They aren't even obligated to deliver a final product or backer rewards on time, they're all estimates provided on trust. That's how Kickstarter works.

Some perspective here.

Unless you have a fortune in oil or something and you're willing to provide a cool couple million to Yu2 on your own terms, maybe then you have more leeway to demand transparency! But we're each individually kicking in a really goddamn small amount of the money needed to get this thing off the ground, through a system that's only a little more professional looking than Paypal donations.

Suzuki tried delivering Shenmue III through other ways. This is the only one that took flight. You can wait for another ship if you'd like, but I think this is the only one that's going to fly.

These are all valid points.
At the core of it all, I'm just frustrated that something I've been waiting for my entire adult life is being handled, at least from my perspective, extremely poorly.
But you're right. This is probably the only chance we get.

 

[Astral Dog]

Damn. They're not gonna make it. Seems to have much less of a push then something like Bloodstained.

Really? i thought this was the fastest backed Kickstarter ever?

 

[Chaos17]

If Shenmue 3 is happening, then you know anything is possible!

And it will be possible if people who loves games keep being positive, support it monetarily as much as they can (because how great Shenmue 3 will be depends only on that), keep spreading the news around and encouraging fellows to support it.

We can do it!

Good job, I tweeted it to different support communities of Shenmue in hope they will use it to fight the backlash and spread the word.

 

[Sorcerer]

It funny to think that even if this game gets made and somehow still fails financially, that we will still be left hanging with no conclusion.

Yes we are getting a new Shenmue, but possibly no conclusion after all this time.

I hope this is a massive success so one day Yu can conclude it.

 

[harSon]

But who is blaming anyone? All of the backers are not dissatisfied or they would not be contributing. Non-backers concerned about the type of game Suzuki can make?

The hell is with this backers vs. non-backers hogwash? Considering there's still 27 days to go and Yu Suzuki would like to go into develop with $10 million - which he's $7 million away from (barring outside investments he wont disclose) - there's a large contingent of potential backers.

 

[Jotaka]

this was interesting, was it already posted?

https://twitter.com/megganpez/status/317526010922954753
https://twitter.com/megganpez/status/611582576822620161

 

[Boke1879]

Really? i thought this was the fastest backed Kickstarter ever?

People are being a bit dramatic. While I do think some more rewards would help give it a boost this is just the typical cycle of Kickstarter.

Fast initially backing and then a lull after that. We'll see another explosion in the last 3 days

 

[NervousXtian]

So now, 2 million not enough.. make it 10 million and you really get Shenmue 3.

I know devs have to find capital somewhere.. but this holding a sign at the side of the highway approach is sad.

It's gonna be a long month for Shenmue backers.. the hype was so high.. and then they will hit the slowdown and go crazy.. until the last 3 days and people up their bids to get the latest stretch goal.

 

[Chaos17]

This is what I don't understand, Sony is involved but they still want the majority of the funds to come from fans? Some posters were claiming that Sony was going to match whatever the kickstarter amount was. Are they only paying for exclusivity?

Collabs aren't rare for Kickstarter projects and usually people don't make a drama of it (look at BloodStained). People are just make a fuss because it wasn't clear from the start and Sony haters saw an opportunity to throw tomatoes because of the annoucement made by Sony.

Now everyone is trying their best to gather information to make things clearer to everybody and remove the fog of doubt.

 

[Sinatar]

Didn't Shenmue 1 cost 47 million to make? I mean you convert that to now money and it's like 60 - 65 million, and this is without expensive voice talent or anything.

 

[ShenmueNextGen]

Sony has a lot of money, therefore they should fund Shenmue 3?

Spoiler

[Shenmue 3 comes also to PC. Sony should fund that, too? Ridiculous.]

Please educate yourselves: "Why You Should Still Be Donating To The ‘Shenmue 3′ Kickstarter"

However, consider this:

• Sony has not been announced as an exclusive backer of Shenmue 3 and also has not acquired the IP to Shenmue which Sega still owns. Is it really fair to claim Sony should fund an entire Shenmue 3 game just because they have the money to do so, especially when they do not even hold the rights to the IP?
  
• Wouldn’t you agree that Sony would be a little skeptical of investing into a game that is over 14 years old without some sense of support remaining from the fan base (which has spent 14 years bitterly awaiting a continuation of Shenmue)?
  
• Neither Shenmue I nor Shenmue II beat Sega’s estimations to be considered commercial successes for the company in their own right – especially considering their production costs. Sony says that basically every production studio had declined to back Shenmue 3 on it’s own. Backing support from Sony should be a blessing, not a curse.
  
• Sony says there were 2 routes for Shenmue 3 that Suzuki could take – have the game made with Sony and go through a regular production process or Kickstart the game and make it with the fans. Suzuki chose to use Kickstarter and make the game with the fans because it would allow him to include fan’s input in the game and make it a true ending they would be happy with and maintain full control of the game. The Kickstarter route is allowing fans to have a say in the game that will finally answer some burning questions and even some of the rewards have been changed according to fans petitioning.
  
• Yu Suzuki claimed recently in Famitsu magazine that the $2 million funding was essential for Shenmue 3 to exist at all. It seems that the game media may be overplaying Sony’s hand in Shenmue 3’s development and taking advantage of the fact that Suzuki has contracts that are not allowing him to be forthright about funding details.
  
• Backing the Kickstarter gets you the game for $29 – which is pretty affordable for a video game nowadays. It is really no difference from making a pre-order at Gamestop – which gamers do all the time. However, this pre-order comes with lots of more perks.

 

[Chaos17]

Didn't Shenmue 1 cost 47 million to make? I mean you convert that to now money and it's like 60 - 65 million, and this is without expensive voice talent or anything.

They were too advanced or their time, the technology wasn't really there so it was more difficult to produce what we can now more easely.

 

[UrbanRats]

So now, 2 million not enough.. make it 10 million and you really get Shenmue 3.

I know devs have to find capital somewhere.. but this holding a sign at the side of the highway approach is sad.

It's gonna be a long month for Shenmue backers.. the hype was so high.. and then they will hit the slowdown and go crazy.. until the last 3 days and people up their bids to get the latest stretch goal.

2 Millions is enough, to finish the story.
It has always been like that.

 

[ShogunDarius]

I really do hope Sony, YS, Sega and Yu are in talks to get a ps4 physical release even if it becomes a kickstarter exclusive physical release

 

[Chaos17]

Sony has a lot of money, therefore they should fund Shenmue 3?

Spoiler

[Shenmue 3 comes also to PC. Sony should fund that, too? Ridiculous.]

Please educate yourselves: "Why You Should Still Be Donating To The ‘Shenmue 3′ Kickstarter"

Man, you should make a facebook page or a blog to compile things. You're doing a good job by explaining things (and like those pictures you make). Or maybe the OP of the Kickstarter thread should update his post with your info.

 

[Walpurgis]

Because of an opinion piece?

Because they're meddling kids.

 

[staticneuron]

Whatever the final number is, Sony should dump in the rest to make it to $10 million.

It obviously takes more than 10 million to make a decent open world game. I am guessing the amount of funding secured by third party increases with each kickstarter milestone hit. That is the only way I can make sense out of that comment.

I never said that, multiplatform would have been best.

Based off of what? Each additional console you try to develop for has a cost associated with it.

What was stopping Suzuki from including a section on the kickstarter page letting people know that Sony wasn't giving them a huge amount of money and that kickstarter pledges were the majority of the funding? Then, you have the Sony guy coming out and making it sound like they were equal partners in the development of the game and just wanted to gauge interest before giving the money needed to make the best possible version of the game. If people want to get mad at anyone they need to get mad at Suzuki and Sony for not being clear on how the game was getting funded and Sony's role in the whole thing. And yeah, a lot of the backlash came from assumptions people were making but they invited those assumptions by not getting out in front and making things clear.

I will repost this .........

Again, the onus was not on Sony. Sony is the one who present the kicstarter page.

It is the same with the other kickstarter pages that are also made by the visible dev and not the unnamed partners. And if you are going to talk about transparency as if there is a comparison then answer me a few questions.

For Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night- Who are the partners and by fund what is the exact amount?

For Yooka-Laylee - what do they mean by expand? What platforms exactly are they targeting? Do they have partners or a company that will agree to additional funding if they hit a desired amount?


Again, that is mentioning something but not complete transparency and the onus is not on the partners who are gauging interest because they aren't the ones creating these pledge pages. If you really wanted to question someone then Sony shouldn't be where this request for transparency is aimed. Never before have people aimed the complaints about transparency in a kickstarter to the funders (named or unnamed) who agreed to provide additional support if pledge is met. Imo, that speaks volumes about these current complaints levied against Sony.

Listen just because you don't have all the information (most likely because they have not finalized anything) doesn't mean it is ok for people to MAKE stuff up and then turn around and blame YSnet and Sony for the fact that people decided to make stuff up.

EDIT: I am not upset though because it is funded and I have yet to throw my pledge in due to timing. But I will and I still hope others can throw in as well.

 

[beril]

If they couldn't actually build the Witcher 3 on a $15 million budget with an experienced staff and a lot of their design work done for them, I'm not sure why CDProject's title should be held up as an example of a micro-budget open world game. The delays are not just unfortunate happenstance that was beyond their control.

Comparing it to Witcher 3 is silly in the first place. That's one of the biggest and most graphically impressing AAA games around. If you're expecting that from Shenmue 3 you're delusional.

Actually, right now the KS is at about 1/10th of the Witcher 3 budget; that makes it seem pretty reasonable (ignoring the polish low cost factor).

 

[Cave Johnson]

For the last 10 years everyone has blamed rising development costs for the death of many, many publishers and developers. Press and fan communities alike largely believe that every major 3D title has been more expensive than they were during the PS2 era. I think this is a relatively fair asumption, in most if not many cases. Just look at how the output on most Japanese franchises has slowed, and how the staff on most Western games has massively ballooned.

All of a sudden Shenmue comes along and everyone is like "Oh yeah, they can definitely make this game on a mere fraction of the original's budget!" I'm not really sure why this is. They will have a pre-made engine sure, but asset creation is still pretty massively expensive and the hallmark of the series tends to revolve around asset creation (open world & cinematics).

Except you forget to factor that rising development costs attributed to scope and ambition to the project. We're not talking about gta3 to GTA V conversions here.

As far as we know Shenmue 3 had and was designed around the scope in the range or somewhat above the Dreamcast and if you're telling me that we still haven't made progress on working on scale so minute that the entire Uncharted 4 jeep scene would've fit the entirety of Shenmue 1 & 2 many times over would mean a complete amateurish attempt at resource handling.

 

[Surta]

Comparing it to Witcher 3 is silly in the first place. That's one of the biggest and most graphically impressing AAA games around. If you're expecting that from Shenmue 3 you're delusional.

Yes, also considering that Witcher 3 was made in Poland, where wages and cost of living are significantly lower than in Tokyo.

 

[Dreadx_Jecht]

Not only that but also that people claimed Sony was behind this and using a 'sleezy, shady' Kickstarter to gauge consumer interest when in reality it is the major resource for the project.

Having an issue with KS transparency is one thing, but then automatically claiming that the best fitting narrative ("Big company trying to rob fans, yo") is the truth is just plain dumb.

Probably just fanboys angry that Sony was associated with such a legend