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[disastermouse]

Yes. Enact decades of irreversible damage to the country by having a completely conservative court that overrules whatever progress we've made, so that you can sit from the sidelines and say, "Yes! Any day now, they'll realize the mistake that I wanted them to make!" And this will benefit the country in the long run because reasons.

You don't think that Citizens United has mobilized the base and even caused a few conservatives to look askance at their party? CU is very unpopular. Millennials are a large and underdeveloped resource for liberals and they KNOW they're getting a shit sandwich in this economy.

A conservative court cannot overcome constitutional amendments.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I did answer it. It's not important enough to get me to vote for another centrist democrat. In fact, let the court become so conservative that it shows how batshit the right really is. It might be what it takes to get people to vote in enough liberals to enact some much needed constitutional amendments.

I won't continue to be held hostage by the prospect of a conservative Supreme Court.

I didn't come to this position overnight. When Ralph Nader was running, I pleaded with my liberal friends to think about the importance of the Supreme Court.

Yeah, just gotta wait 30+ years for each one to retire.

Not sure what else there is to say to someone whose entire hope relies on a bunch stuff happening just the way you planned it and the american public votes for some hardcore leftists in every level of government. I'm sure if this was 1984 you would be making the same case against Mondale running against Reagan.

Hope it all works out for you bud. I'm not willing to take a chance considering the ramifications.

 

[FreddieQuell]

Not in all cases. In the current times of extreme polarization when there is little to be won in the middle and turn out is of primary importance, then yes, I think it may - especially if disillusioned liberals are vocal about why they didn't vote for Hillary.

Okay, I'll admit I am certainly not politically savvy, but that sounds crazy to me. If you show the political establishment that Republican candidates win elections then your options will drift further into being more like them.

And I don't see how not voting for Hillary will show that dissilusioned liberals are waiting for a real candidate. It will be evidence that there aren't enough dissilusioned liberals in this country to win an election, so there is no point in campaigning to get their vote. Leading to more conservative candidates.

 

[disastermouse]

Yeah, just gotta wait 30+ years for each one to retire.

Not sure what else there is to say to someone whose entire hope relies on a bunch stuff happening just the way you planned it and the american public votes for some hardcore leftists in every level of government. I'm sure if this was 1984 you would be making the same case against Mondale running against Reagan.

Hope it all works out for you bud. I'm not willing to take a chance considering the ramifications.

It won't matter what you do if enough people who feel the way I do withhold their votes. I'd be worried if I were you - I'm hearing exactly my own sentiment more often than I'd have thought I would this time around. And I want to remind you, this position is new to me and particular to this cycle. I'm not a young person full of hope and visions of unicorn farts.

 

[Cheebo]

You don't think that Citizens United has mobilized the base and even caused a few conservatives to look askance at their party? CU is very unpopular. Millennials are a large and underdeveloped resource for liberals and they KNOW they're getting a shit sandwich in this economy.

A conservative court cannot overcome constitutional amendments.

You are living in a world that does not exist if you think there is enough support for a constitutional amendment to over-turn Citizen's United. The VAST majority of the public have no idea what that is nor do they care about campaign finance reform at all. Campaign Finance Reform is a niche issue only hardcore liberals care about.

The gay marriage decision was a 5-4 vote. If McCain beat Obama the decision would have not happened the way it did. There are bound to be far more 1 vote clincher Supreme Court decisions over the next decade and Ginsburg is not going to be around long. A republican would replace her with a conservative and it would be disastrous long term for this country.

Also I would love to know what you think Bernie could accomplish with a full on republican house and senate that Hillary would not do. Because the Republican congress is not going to be going anywhere any time soon. Whoever is President has to deal with them.

It won't matter what you do if enough people who feel the way I do withhold their votes. I'd be worried if I were you - I'm hearing exactly my own sentiment more often than I'd have thought I would this time around. And I want to remind you, this position is new to me and particular to this cycle. I'm not a young person full of hope and visions of unicorn farts.

Well, when the Republican wins and replaces Ginsburg with a hardcore conservative who will be on the bench for 20-30 years we will have you guys to thank. Hope you guys enjoy that outcome.

Willingly trying to sabotage the Democratic nominee's chances so the Republican will win makes you no better than a Republican. I do not see how your stances are anymore liberal friendly than Rick Santorum in this instance. Both you and the Republican base would be just as liable in having a conservative dominated court.

Do you know what history has shown when Democrats lose elections? Th party shifts more towards the middle to win. Not the left. Your so-called sabotage plan when Hillary is the nominee will backfire. Completely. It will result in a Republican President, Conservative court justices. And a Democratic party that shifts further to the middle to win. History has shown this to almost always be the case.

Do you remember what happened in 2000? Many pie-in-the-sky liberal hardcore or bust types deemed Al Gore "more of the same" and not different enough from Bush. Too corporate, too safe, not liberal enough, and so on. The EXACT same things being said about Hillary now. And so they sat out the election or voted Nader instead.

Please tell me, how did that work out for the country?

 

[Plinko]

A vote for Bernie Sanders in the primary is basically a vote for a republican president. He has zero shot at winning a general election.

 

[disastermouse]

A vote for Bernie Sanders in the primary is basically a vote for a republican president. He has zero shot at winning a general election.

Untrue. There aren't so many 'swing voters' left to win over and millenials are approaching voting age as older, more conservative voters leave their mortal coils.

An energized liberal base can do a lot if they show up. They may not show up for Hillary. I'm sure so many of you trying to convince me that I absolutely shoild vote for Hillary are unlikely to withhold their vote for Bernie - especially if he selects a woman as a VP candidate.

 

[gutter_trash]

Untrue. There aren't so many 'swing voters' left to win over and millenials are approaching voting age as older, more conservative voters leave their mortal coils.

Humprhey
McGovern
Mondale
Dukakis
- - -

 

[acheron_xl]

Well, when the Republican wins and replaces Ginsburg with a hardcore conservative who will be on the bench for 20-30 years we will have you guys to thank. Hope you guys enjoy that outcome.

There's no guarantee that Ginsburg retires if a Republican wins the White House.

 

[Cheebo]

Untrue. There aren't so many 'swing voters' left to win over and millenials are approaching voting age as older, more conservative voters leave their mortal coils.

So that's why republicans control the house, the senate, and the vast majority of all the governships in this country then?

Republicans had a HUGE victory just last year! When Democrsts stay home Republicans win. We only have to go back one year for proof of this.

There's no guarantee that Ginsburg retires if a Republican wins the White House.

She is in her 80s and has had multiple bouts with cancer. Realistically she is not going to be on the bench 4-8 years from now.

 

[disastermouse]

Humprhey
McGovern
Mondale
Dukakis
- - -

Yes, because this surely is the 60s/80s. You know why democrats lose so often? They scare so easily.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I've heard this argument before. Hell, I've made this argument before. I don't believe it anymore.

You don't beleive that voting in two supremem court justicaes is one of the most important events in political history that dictates policy for decades to come?

I mean, there isn't much to argue. If you're going to a Bernie rally you would be insane to just vote republican because reasons

 

[Cheebo]

Yes, because this surely is the 60s/80s. You know why democrats lose so often? They scare so easily.

Explain what happened in 2014. Why do Republicans dominate every branch of government both at state and federal level outside of the White House right now?

 

[disastermouse]

So that's why republicans control the house, the senate, and the vast majority of all the governships in this country then?

Republicans had a HUGE victory just last year! When Democrsts stay home Republicans win. We only have to go back one year for proof of this.

Dems often lose in midterm elections, especially when a democrat is president.

2016 is not a midterm.

 

[disastermouse]

You don't beleive that voting in two supremem court justicaes is one of the most important events in political history that dictates policy for decades to come?

I mean, there isn't much to argue. If you're going to a Bernie rally you would be insane to just vote republican because reasons

I won't vote republican, I may simply not vote at all.

 

[acheron_xl]

Explain what happened in 2014. Why do Republicans dominate every branch of government both at state and federal level outside of the White House right now?

Demographics is only part of it. Gerrymandering plays a huge part too.

 

[Foffy]

A vote for Bernie Sanders in the primary is basically a vote for a republican president. He has zero shot at winning a general election.

I'd rather vote for him than the "given" candidate, if only because he has views that Hillary doesn't and they're simply more commonsensical. Her silence on the TPP and it being one of the worst proposed things in decades is astounding. She very likely played a role in its early goings on when she was Secretary of State. That alone is enough for me to not for her, or any candidate supporting it.

I'd rather vote for a candidate who will lose to oligarchical fascists than play coy for a moment and assume that it's the okay thing to do; to vote for someone who clearly has more problematic ideals because of popular opinion. But I guess that's been the American way for 40 years now: learn to settle for less.

 

[Cheebo]

Dems often lose in midterm elections, especially when a democrat is president.

2016 is not a midterm.

Democrsts had a great midterm election in 1998 under Clinton. Saying they often lose midterm elections but ignoring which party got the majority of the vote and then dismissing the chance of the public voting for that same party again 2 years later is being very naive.

The idea that Republicans can't win is very foolish.

 

[gutter_trash]

Yes, because this surely is the 60s/80s. You know why democrats lose so often? They scare so easily.

the US is still a Conservative country and always has been Conservative. It is probably the most right wing country in the Western world

You over estimate a socio-democrat's chance in the general

I won't vote republican, I may simply not vote at all.

then John Ellis Bush wins

 

[Cheebo]

the US is still a Conservative country and always has been Conservative. It is probably the most right wing country in the Western world

You over estimate a socio-democrat's chance in the general



then John Ellis Bush wins

Polling has shown the vast majority of the public would never consider voting for a socialist. Even atheism polls better than socialism.

Demographics is only part of it. Gerrymandering plays a huge part too.

No gerrymandering at the governor level. And Republicans have a huge huge majority of governships in this country.

 

[Mesousa]

I won't vote republican, I may simply not vote at all.

Look into Jill Stein. She would be a great vote choice to make if Hilary gets the nomination.

That is my plan.

 

[Cheebo]

Look into Jill Stein. She would be a great vote choice to make if Hilary gets the nomination.

That is my plan.

Just like Nader was a great choice over Gore for thousands of Florida voters?

 

[PhoenixDark]

I'm going to vote for Sanders in the Michigan primary, and expect to vote for Hillary in the general election. I don't see Sanders beating her.

Furthermore you would be a fool to not vote for her in November, given the opposition. This election is about more than idealogy. The next president will nominate 3-4 Supreme Court justices. If last week taught us anything it's that the court is pretty fucking important. Not voting is stupid, period.

 

[Marauder Shields]

Just like Nader was a great choice over Gore for thousands of Florida voters?

Well if Gore couldn't win them over that was his campaign's fault. It's silly that people think that candidates are entitled to votes.

 

[metalslimer]

Well good for you for not voting. It's because of people like you that we have even less choice due to citizens United passing in the supreme court. You can downplay the importance of the supreme court all you want though.

This whole both parties are the same nonsense is truly disturbing.

 

[Mesousa]

Just like Nader was a great choice over Gore for thousands of Florida voters?

Whose fault was that?

 

[Roland_Gunner]

You don't think that Citizens United has mobilized the base and even caused a few conservatives to look askance at their party? CU is very unpopular. Millennials are a large and underdeveloped resource for liberals and they KNOW they're getting a shit sandwich in this economy.

A conservative court cannot overcome constitutional amendments.

As others have mentioned the huge GOP gains at every level except the Presidency shows that far fewer people are voting because of the CU decision than because of the hundreds of millions of dollars in advertising being spent by conservative Super PACs. Thats why the Democrats keeping the White House is 2016 is so important.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Dems often lose in midterm elections, especially when a democrat is president.

2016 is not a midterm.

Funny, that happened back in the year 2000.

I forgot how that went.

Spoiler

Voter apathy is killing this country

 

[Foffy]

Well good for you for not voting. It's because of people like you that we have even less choice due to citizens United passing in the supreme court. You can downplay the importance of the supreme court all you want though.

This whole both parties are the same nonsense is truly disturbing.

In some ways they are, and this is a problem with legalized corruption in America. This is what lobbyists are, after all. People are burnt out by Corporate America, and then assume because the parties dangerously adhere to money over all, that as long as money is involved they'll say the same things so long as there is money to buy that view. Most of the time that is true, the TPP is easily proof of this as people are voting for something they haven't even fucking seen, but not all of the time, and that's absolutely important to acknowledge. Some can look at the ACA as something similar, for it assimilated to Big Pharma and was merely a band-aid to the health care disaster, which still exists in America. It addressed none of the real issues.

But mainly, not all of the views are ruled by money even if some feel that it's so. It's important to state that. Unfortunately, Hillary Clinton is not a candidate one can look at and honestly say money doesn't shape her views. That could be factual, but that's very clearly a popular opinion about her. I think people want none of that anymore, and we're in a hard time because it seems to be the whole status quo. This is perhaps why people are more apathetic than ever about our political system, which should be the most personal thing we do in society. People want sincerity, not public pandering only to head off and benefit the elite, which is what most imagine politics today. The surge on Bernie Sanders is an example of why people are showing up in the thousands to hear him talk; his sincerity and honesty. If we had more people like him and less people adhering to oligarchs, we'd have a farrrrrrrrr better system.

Apathy is acceptance. Being apathetic to corporate control, or to poverty, or to the abysmal health care system shows you accept it. And this leads to no changes, no revolutions, internally or socially. People accept our corrupt system as "oh well, that's what it is", failing to realize it's a social system at work. And like all social systems, they're subjective, not objective, and thus can be changed.

 

[Roland_Gunner]

Well if Gore couldn't win them over that was his campaign's fault. It's silly that people think that candidates are entitled to votes.

If it makes you feel better to blame Gore for note getting those votes feel free but the fact remains that if those people hadn't wasted their votes then we wouldn't have had the disastrous war in Iraq with thousands of American soldiers dead, tens of thousands wounded, and millions of dead Iraqi civilians.

 

[alstein]

I'm not. I don't need purity pledges and as for pie in the sky idealism, the world is changed, when it is eventually changed, by such idealists.

I won't continue to be a party to my own destruction simply by choosing the more palatable poison. The Democratic Party needs people like me to vote, and if they think they can get people like me to vote for a weak candidate by terrorizing me with the prospect of a worse candidate from the opposing party, then they will never offer me anything better.

As for winning the primary - I'm certainly hopeful, as deluded as you think the possibility may be.

The best option there is to vote for purity in the primary, and down the line in your local elections. If Hillary really is that toxic to you, vote Green in the presidential election and vote for Dems downticket.

Sanders has a slim chance- Hillary may get tripped up over a major scandal, or she might have her health fail. I don't see him winning otherwise, especially in the South, but he needs to stay in as long as possible, and I will vote for him.

the US is still a Conservative country and always has been Conservative. It is probably the most right wing country in the Western world

You over estimate a socio-democrat's chance in the general



then John Ellis Bush wins

Not many undecided voters left, many will go for Bernie's rhetoric. I don't think it matters that much who you put up these days as long as they're competent, it's the D or R that matters. I actually think Bernie is more competent a politician than Hillary is. She blew 2008 hard- she should have won then. (though we'd probably have Romney 2012 if that happened)

 

[Plinko]

I didn't realize Sanders' supporters were as delusional as Ron Paul's. There are a lot of parallels between the two groups.

America will never elect a socialist.

 

[gutter_trash]

I didn't realize Sanders' supporters were as delusional as Ron Paul's. There are a lot of parallels between the two groups.

America will never elect a socialist.

Most Ron Paul supporters are not even Republican at all, many are young independents who took the libertarian flavor of the month moniker and ran with it

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

I've heard this argument before. Hell, I've made this argument before. I don't believe it anymore.

What's not to believe? At least one, and most likely (almost assuredly) two SCJs will retire.

What's interesting to me about these kinds of takes is that there is critical mass right now to solve a variety of significant problems facing the country, and both parties are extremely different in regards to how they would solve these problems. It's like night and day... the difference is really that clear. Yet, we still have voters who don't understand it. What's the problem?

I had a conversation with someone who would rather have a Republican win than Hilary, but yet wants Sanders to be the next President. When asked about the Supreme Court, he would rather have another Scalia on the bench than a Sotomayor. What can you even say to that.

 

[onadesertedisland]

Having the big bad S word attached to him will prevent him from being the nominee. It would cement a GOP White House.

 

[Slayven]

The sentiment of "I rather vote GOP than Democrat" is scary as fuck. It is like saying "Instead of things getting a little bit better, I rather them get all the way bad".

 

[onadesertedisland]

The sentiment of "I rather vote GOP than Democrat" is scary as fuck. It is like saying "Instead of things getting a little bit better, I rather them get all the way bad".

It's the false rhetoric that both sides are equivalently bad and that voting for one side or the other is essentially the same.

 

[Marauder Shields]

If it makes you feel better to blame Gore for note getting those votes feel free but the fact remains that if those people hadn't wasted their votes then we wouldn't have had the disastrous war in Iraq with thousands of American soldiers dead, tens of thousands wounded, and millions of dead Iraqi civilians.

People exercising their democratic right is not a wasted vote, regardless of who it's for. Why not get mad at people who didn't vote at all?

 

[Africanus]

I didn't realize Sanders' supporters were as delusional as Ron Paul's. There are a lot of parallels between the two groups.

America will never elect a socialist.

I wouldn't say never, who knows where the wind will blow and whether the tides will change after all. I could easily see the 2024 election going in favour of a young democratic-socialist who takes his/her ideas from Scandinavia.

The time frame is assuming Clinton is re-elected and a few more members of the older generations die off. In the recent polling, those of generations born nearer to the end or post cold-war were more receptive to Socialists.

But I digress! In today's age Sanders has little chance. Stranger events have occurred in life, but given the climate this election is essentially over.

 

[Slayven]

It's the false rhetoric that both sides are equivalently bad and that voting for one side or the other is essentially the same.

as a black man just making ends meet, the lineup for the GOP scares me shitless.

 

[Paskil]

Title II internet
Money for renewable energy startups and ongoing grants
Immigration and selective enforcement
Preventing corporate monopoly
All the district and circuit court judge appointments
Implemented EPA rules for gas mileage
Implemented clean air rules that although overturned, still resulted in a lot of change in anticipation of the application of the standards
Keystone XL
Is no longer interfering in medical marijuana in the states
Is not siccing the DEA on states that legalized marijuana
Repealed DADT
Refused to defend DOMA
Overtime pay
Iran and Cuba
Nuclear proliferation agreements

But I mean, both parties are the same. All of the above are things that a Republican president would likely oppose. Also, don't look at what Obama has done, look at what his cabinet has done.

 

[T'Zariah]

as a black man just making ends meet, the lineup for the GOP scares me shitless.

As a black man in GENERAL, the GOP scares me shitless.

 

[Slayven]

As a black man in GENERAL, the GOP scares me shitless.

Fuck around with those jokers and in 3 years slavery comes back.

 

[Foffy]

I didn't realize Sanders' supporters were as delusional as Ron Paul's. There are a lot of parallels between the two groups.

America will never elect a socialist.

Unfortunately America really is too collectively stupid to elect someone under the Socialist banner specifically because of the name. It still doesn't change the fact his views are literally more in line with reality than any candidate who has announced they're running, most of which are supported by mainstream America. But it's the demonic label that is clearly the problem in America.

If that stops someone like Sanders, something as petty as a social label, then we truly deserve a subpar state of being for most in this land. I know we're an incredibly pathetic country because we're so ignorant and short sighted, but this would make the case that we'd be comfortable with inadequate because of nationalistic bullshit.

 

[Africanus]

Fuck around with those jokers and in 3 years slavery comes back.

The correct term is indefinite indentured servitude.

 

[It was me Austin]

I didn't realize Sanders' supporters were as delusional as Ron Paul's. There are a lot of parallels between the two groups.

America will never elect a socialist.

Ron Paul is a very good analogy for Bernie. He'll ultimately just steal some votes from people who would otherwise vote Democratic. Madison is one of the most liberal cities in the Midwest, if not America; he wouldn't be as popular in other cities.

 

[Rebel Leader]

I didn't realize Sanders' supporters were as delusional as Ron Paul's. There are a lot of parallels between the two groups.

America will never elect a socialist.

Never say never

 

[Ultima_5]

I'm going to vote for Sanders in the Michigan primary, and expect to vote for Hillary in the general election. I don't see Sanders beating her.

Furthermore you would be a fool to not vote for her in November, given the opposition. This election is about more than idealogy. The next president will nominate 3-4 Supreme Court justices. If last week taught us anything it's that the court is pretty fucking important. Not voting is stupid, period.

This sounds like my plan too. I'd be disappointed if we end up with a republican president because a bunch of people didn't get their first choice.

if bernie is getting this much support right now, is there any chance of him getting the Veep spot?

The sentiment of "I rather vote GOP than Democrat" is scary as fuck. It is like saying "Instead of things getting a little bit better, I rather them get all the way bad".

This. Everyone needs to go watch the "month of zen" stream of the daily show. we're now in the bush administration. People who think both parties are the same can fuck off with that edgy high school train of thought.

 

[facelike]

If Sanders gets the bid for President, he'd have a shot if Warren is his VP. Still a long shot getting past the primaries but not impossible.

 

[disastermouse]

Funny, that happened back in the year 2000.

I forgot how that went.

Spoiler

Voter apathy is killing this country

The liberal vote was split and that election was stolen. Your example was a poor one.