EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
No.
Kojima makes this shit up as he goes. There is no planned, coherent plot to the series and never has been.
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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
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No.
Kojima makes this shit up as he goes. There is no planned, coherent plot to the series and never has been.
akidnamededdy
Banned
They should have had Sins of the Father play over the final confrontation between Skullface and Snake (like, my version of it.)
I mean, imagine it playing over this:
Oh, and we should have gotten a wicked Kyle Cooper Bond-esque intro sequence with the 1980s inspired 'A Phantom Pain' track like how we had one in Snake Eater. Fill it with psychological imagery, broken mirrors, fire, blood, broken limbs, mechanical limbs, etc.
I wonder if Kojima would even read it.
I actually think the Venom twist had so much potential to be cool.
Someone please mod this version of the story into the PC game. I'll wait.
Or maybe he doesn't, we'll never know. I took that line literally at the time, well everyone did. Of course now we have the retcon to change the meaning of that.
This.
He doesn't plan anything in advance.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
That's no excuse for not making a baller version of the story with the pre-existing plot points he used.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
He didn't actually die in any of those because mgs4 is bullshit
akidnamededdy
Banned
Ah yes, his most trusted and bestest man, "Medic." Definitely not just the closest warm body at the time. NOPE THERE'S HISTORY THERE.
There we go, all fixed.
THE MISSING LINK! AGAIN!
Unknown One
Member
Surprised people doesn't know that. It's quite obvious by the amount of retcons that goes into the series.
Anyone can be like Big Boss is a message to the player.
If you check the cutscene when Venom Snake (with the MSX tape) smashes the mirror the door logo changed
from DD to Outer Heaven
ShockingAlberto
Member
While I have problems with the game, I feel like you missed a large point of the series.
Mainly that, yeah, Solid and Liquid do have no point in existing. The effort to become the world's greatest soldier is just that, an effort, genetics have nothing to do with it. Solid Snake was the failure and he saved the world. Solidus was the perfect clone and he lost to some kid he fucked around with in Africa.
Venom was able to become Big Boss because he was, in actuality, Big Boss' favorite son. He was his star soldier, the guy who was with him wherever he went. Venom became Big Boss through effort, the hypnosis just convinced him he could do it.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
It's probably already been said, but with Chapter 2 feeling like punishment for wanting more in how it takes things from you, disappoints you and pulls out rugs... it's fitting that the first story mission in it is "To Know Too Much"
Even listening to some tapes and having to see Huey as not entirely the worst instead of just leaving it as "he's the worst" after exiling him is like a "hey... you were the one that wanted to know" situation.
Even listening to some tapes and having to see Huey as not entirely the worst instead of just leaving it as "he's the worst" after exiling him is like a "hey... you were the one that wanted to know" situation.
Love Deterrence
Member
Honestly, I had zero problem with the story until it just cut off. I don't care if stuff makes sense or ties into the rest of the series so long as the game tells the best story it possibly can. But having the outcome of A GROUP OF CHILD SOLDIERS with THE TWO DEADLIEST WEAPONS ON THE PLANET relegated to the footnotes of one of the million timelines that pop up throughout MGSV is a travesty and single-handedly killed my enjoyment of the game's narrative. If they add it in - via patch, DLC, whatever, I can forgive, but damn man, they yanked away a final boss battle as well as the best set of cutscenes in the game -- not to mention, Kiefer is AWESOME in the Phantom Episode! (DAT FPS SEQUENCE OHMYGODDDDDDDD tbh) Would Episode 51 answer all of the questions this game presents? No, but it'd be a more acceptable ending than the one we got and one I can at least live with.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Kiefer is actually the perfect choice for both Venom and Naked. Kojima didn't use him well enough.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
just beat the game just god wtf no, they turned it like the end of dark knight rises "anyone can be batman its just a mask" much like anyone can be big boss its just a face and a legend. Dislike the ending, dislike that we are pretty much playing a fraud the entire time, a want to be legend, that builds the name, this game leaves only questions for me. So th REAL big boss is making the real outer heaven etc. Is it the phantom big boss that gets killed in metal gear, is it the real big boss? What happens to the phantom big boss then, where does he go, does he just leave when the real big boss wants to rise up, or it the fraud from metal gear 1 all the way to mgs4. Annoyed and confused. Wish played as the real ultimate soldier, but played as a wana be legend to spread the word.
These after tapes are just spilling the beans.
Yeah, I'd like to see it, but I don't want to lose her as a buddy. I hate watching youtube vids of stuff I'm interested in, but haven't played, but I might make an exception here.
This game could've been so much more- it could've been a personal story of a man who lost 9 years of his life. A man, whom due to the head injury, experiences the most impactful moments of his life in the now- the loss of his mentor, the friends he's lost, the people he's killed, all filling up in his head and pouring into his reality. The distortion of his perception with the added trauma of his past could've been the catalyst to see a good man slowly decaying into a place where morality no longer is the defining influence of his choices, but rather it's vengeance. A man who knowingly accepts what has to be done to give him peace despite the costs. A man who chooses to dive into the darkest shades of morality.
Instead, despite trailers suggesting a promising cohesive narrative, we get:
Lol you weren't even playing as Big Boss! You were playing as some dude who with the help of the most flawless plastic surgeon/ height adjuster/ voice modifier, you only played as a really decent guy who just looked like BB!
Instead, despite trailers suggesting a promising cohesive narrative, we get:
Lol you weren't even playing as Big Boss! You were playing as some dude who with the help of the most flawless plastic surgeon/ height adjuster/ voice modifier, you only played as a really decent guy who just looked like BB!
ShockingAlberto
Member
Big Boss died twice. Once in MG1, once in MG2.
Phantom Big Boss is the first to die because it was a setup to get FOXHOUND off their backs by trapping them there, Solid Snake just managed to get through it and killed Venom.
Then Big Boss died in Zanzibarland after Snake killed him there, with Miller telling Snake to set him on fire.
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
sorry man...i don't know how to say this but....
that was it
Are we talking about the same Big Boss that lied and manipulated the entirety of Diamond Dogs to serve as a shield while he went do to other stuff? The same Big Boss who sold out his own unit and son to create his idea of Heaven? The same Big Boss who kidnapped and raised kids to be the soldiers of the future, creating eternal war?There is no "evil" Big Boss. It was all a lie created by the Patriots. In MGS4 it was made pretty clear that Big Boss was made a pariah because he split from Cipher, so information was distorted to make him the villain of the world when all he was trying to do was break Cipher's control. Sure, it's a retcon, but it's a retcon from several games ago.
The marketing for MGSV was definitely deceptive though, lol.
I'm sorry but this just shows a complete misunderstanding of everything Big Boss did. He may have been against the Patriots, but that doesn't make him good.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I actually don't think the "You're not Big Boss" thing is that bad, if only because the idea that anyone can become the next super soldier is so firmly ingrained into the series.
Hell, it's essentially Big Boss' origin story.
Hell, it's essentially Big Boss' origin story.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I'll add that in cases like MGSV I'm less interested in "how do we re-write the entire plot to make it great", because that can be applied to anything, and more "how do we use most of what exists to make it something more coherent". I'm fine with the body double. MGSV's plot falters for me not necessarily because of the content it has but the way it's presented and structured.
I think the fact there's weird arbitrary unlock requirements for the TRUTH ending, which just boots you into the prologue stage and plays 99% like it did originally, with a handful of amendments then an exposition dump of tapes, is a sign it didn't come together well. Even Peace Walker's true ending grind was integrated into the actual game sensibly.
Oh absolutely, didn't mean to imply as such. Just highlight he's been doing this for years.
I think the fact there's weird arbitrary unlock requirements for the TRUTH ending, which just boots you into the prologue stage and plays 99% like it did originally, with a handful of amendments then an exposition dump of tapes, is a sign it didn't come together well. Even Peace Walker's true ending grind was integrated into the actual game sensibly.
Oh absolutely, didn't mean to imply as such. Just highlight he's been doing this for years.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
so in mgs4 I assume it is the real big boss then that was put back together?
Hey I'm not suggesting that the player is meant to be an important person, but rather one who simply fit the criteria. It's not like they picked some random person off the street with no training or poor physique. The message in MGS has always been that given the right training and the right atmosphere, and put into the right situation, a nobody can be a "legendary" hero. It's not something inherent in a person, but what a person makes of himself.
Amentallica
Unconfirmed Member
Think of it as a waste of a game not getting to know actual Big Boss on a deeper level, and instead his doppelganger, who you don't even really get to know! LOL This wouldn't have been a problem if Venom was fleshed out more and stood on his own, as he is certainly no Raiden who is developed through and through in MGS2. Instead Venom is delusional in thinking he is someone he is not, so he isn't even portraying a novel character, but instead a faux Big Boss. Then by the time Venom finally finds out he isn't Big Boss, well, you don't get to know a damn thing about him.
ShockingAlberto
Member
The patriots retrieved his body after MG2, yeah. Then the body switcharoo happened after MGS2.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
FantasticMrFoxdie... The game is over, brother...
lmao well then.
I dunno how I feel. the game was fucking amazeballs but now I see why people were dissapointed with the last bit. This is a really odd bit of closure. Not sure if I riked it, but I should let it sink for a little bit. I do know I still riked the story up to that point. Parasites, Quiet, That fucking quarantine mission, Sahelanthropus, Skull Face were all cool.
Eli and Emmerich stories were okay. These two threads felt like it could have had so much more impact.
The Ishmael twist I'm neutral. That's definitely a damn Kojima move but I dunno. All of my fiddles right now.
KOJIMAAAAAAAAAA.gif
edit: oh shit yeah the "you're not Big Boss" AI thing caught me off guard early on. I thought it was going that route but kind of forgot all that with everything else going on.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I think it says a lot about Big Boss that he has finally gotten to the point that he was willing to sacrifice soldiers for his ultimate goal, which we no longer no the point of.
He's finally twisted Boss' will, like inevitably everyone does. Ironically, the only person who seemingly knows what she wanted, though only by coincidence, is Venom Snake. He's trying to end war. Everyone else is trying to perpetuate it.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
Agreed, gameplay wise best metal gear game ever however story wise incredibly weak, the entire anyone can be big boss really annoys me its the the batman dark knight rises ending. I wanted to see the real big boss become the villian the phantom boss became the bitch and did bis boss bidding for him. I feel this should have been a close personal story about teh real big boss losing control of himself and letting greed take over. Wish there was more Zero and Gray Fox as well, so many things they could have done yet they did this, as a final game from kojima I leave dissapointed.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Fuuuuuuuuck it, I'm tweeting my shit to Kojima.
I hope he reads it.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
body switch, didnt eva just steal it from the patriots, no actual switch?
Banana Aeon
Member
ShockingAlberto
Member
I imagine he gets a lot of fan fiction tweeted at him.
Amentallica
Unconfirmed Member
Venom personifies being stuck in limbo. He is neither Big Boss nor himself the entire game. He is a person with an identity crisis who already believes he is someone else. This wouldn't have been problematic had this stupid twist been revealed mid-game as then Venom could have developed his own identity while still assuming the identity of Big Boss. He learns it too late and by then you have a fake Prada bag from Canal Street.
NoctisVsStar
Member
I think Kojima knows it's shit I don't think he's that oblivious, MGSV is not his original vision.. Is what I tell myself at night to sleep.
Moon_frogger
Member
re: the jeep scene. I know a lot of people are upset at an inappropriate use of the song er...sins of the father was it? but do people understand that objectively that the song itself is just...terrible? I suppose fans have been listening to this song for months and super excited about it's placement in the game but wow.....it's just the cheesiest thing I could have imagined and just doesn't seem out of place in that awkward jeep ride. It's not even close to the awesomeness of the snake eater theme which at least had the defense of being a cheesy james bond throwback. I mean this song.....it's just awful. Probably the worst thing about the game overall.
That's not really the problem with the story to be honest, is that the twist doesn't really add much to the series since the "anyone can be a soldier" has already been explored in the series many times before (Raiden, showing how Big Boss's big mission actually went down, Snake in MGS2, etc)
Its just that the story is kind of subdued, the way some characters act don't make much sense (Miller, Huey's sudden assholery) and ultimately the twist just feels like a twist for the sake of it.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I hope he reads it at least. I'd feel good about myself with him reading it, even if he didn't like it.
I sent it to him.
Edit: just curious, what do you think of my ideal plot playout?
The story of TPP is probably fan-fiction anyway. He must have watched those Pythonselkan videos.
The Silver
Member
They really could've done so much more with this body double thing if they didn't plop at the very end. It's the final proof that Big Boss has become a hypocrite, what he does with Venom(letting Zero turn his super loyal soldier into a mere tool) is no different than what the government did to The Boss, he's become what he hated.
It would've felt like even more of an MGS2 retread but that game did it right with it's twist, put it at the start and the entire was based around exploring it. In MGSV it just ends right on it and all the fallout and cool ramifications from it are just left up in the air.
It would've felt like even more of an MGS2 retread but that game did it right with it's twist, put it at the start and the entire was based around exploring it. In MGSV it just ends right on it and all the fallout and cool ramifications from it are just left up in the air.
Quick question about 100% completion, I'm avoiding doing Quiet's final mission/Op for now, but I'm at 135/157 side-ops and have no new ones..do I need to do the Quiet ones for the rest to show up, or are the new ones just hidden behind the replayable ones and I have to re-do them to get the new ones to show up?
The guy's ego is so extreme I'm sure he considers an incomplete game he released as still great. He's still hyping the game up on Twitter and I'm sure Konami can't force him to market his title like that. Not to mention keeping his name in the game wherever he can. I don't mean that to be as anti-Kojima as it sounds, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't hate his own game/story.
But I never said he was good? I just said there was no "evil" Big Boss in the sense of the cartoon villain of a man who supposedly built up a private army to take on the world, which was the case by the end of MG2. Ever since Kojima started filling in the gaps (ie: making up more shit in the backstory) from MGS onwards, Big Boss was always depicted as a noble but possibly misguided leader who was doing things for ideals. That doesn't make him a good person, no warmongers are good people, but there's quite a range between "good" and "evil".
The issue with expectations is the completely misleading marketing for MGSV which kept driving home that the theme of REVENGE and that MEN BECOME DEMONS, suggesting that this would be the FALL OF BIG BOSS, etc. People expected him to turn into a total villain. Instead you rescue animals, rescue children, raise a puppy, and forgive your enemies.
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
yup, probably can't say anything because of Konami tho. We'll probably have to wait a few years to get confirmation that this was an unfinished product.
I agree that the marketing for this game was complete trash and doesn't reflect the final product at all.
But Big Boss, at least until he woke up in 2014, was an evil, cowardly, manipulative, lying sack of shit.
Love Deterrence
Member
Yeah, definitely. I thought Kiefer was great as Snake - guess alot of people don't, huh? :'D
Well, I mean we're spending all this time with head-canon anyway that we may as well just go ahead and believe this too!
You use the word objectively. I don't think that word means what you think it means.
NoctisVsStar
Member
Agreed, I just hope he thinks like us that the game could've been much more but he did what he could under the circumstances he was in. The way chapter 2 was presented is a disaster and knowing the OCD perfectionist he is, he wouldn't allow such. I'm not trying to paint Kojima as a saint I'm sure he was at fault to a degree.
You're right, though I've also heard people use this reasoning to defend the twist and Big Medic. I feel like the reason people dislike this twist is because of how it happened, so while Big Boss/Naked Snake wasn't some magic super soldier, he *was* a damn good one. He was still a legend because of how good he was due to a life of training from The Boss and the missions/circumstances he lived through. Sure, other soldiers could technically become that good, but when you start making random medics Big Boss through some dumb hypnosis, it cheapens everything. It really starts to feel like Kojima took the nature vs nurture thing too far with the whole "You're Big Boss!" thing, and it just ends up retroactively undermining/ruining old characters.
Yes, I think he should be proud. It's easily the most enjoyable MGS game.
NoctisVsStar
Member
I think xof cleaning up crew is what cheapens the legend imo
Puck Beaverton
Banned
I think there's real potential with Venom that unfortunately wasn't realized due to the combination of Kojima not being that great of a writer and his fallout with Konami probably forcing the game to be finished before it was really ready.
Imagine the identity crisis he receives and being nothing more than a lawn for someone you worshipped; or the final boss being Solid Snake where you lose in the end, then having the comic that's been posted here play out with a hallucination of Quiet comforting him as he dies. There's some real raw emotion you can pull out here that never comes to pass, instead I felt nothing.
Imagine the identity crisis he receives and being nothing more than a lawn for someone you worshipped; or the final boss being Solid Snake where you lose in the end, then having the comic that's been posted here play out with a hallucination of Quiet comforting him as he dies. There's some real raw emotion you can pull out here that never comes to pass, instead I felt nothing.
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