Dick Justice
Banned
As much as I dislike MGS4, I really loved the stupid shit that Ocelot did in that game (also, the laugh makes that scene even better. God bless Patric Zimmerman).
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As much as I dislike MGS4, I really loved the stupid shit that Ocelot did in that game (also, the laugh makes that scene even better. God bless Patric Zimmerman).
Can't read the later year on the left tombstone but it sure as hell doesn't say 1995.
It seems to be canon. It's mentioned in the timeline in the end as well.
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
Ōkami;179061395 said:
1964. The left is the Boss. The right is Venom
Ōkami;179061395 said:
The left one is The Boss' tomb. It says she died in 1964.
The one on the right is Big Boss' tomb. It says he died in Outer Heaven (Zanzibar Land) in 1999.
Nope, it's Big Boss'.
ShockingAlberto
Member
The thing about the twist is I really wish they would have just gone more absurd.
Like that Venom got pissed at Big Boss and the real Big Boss is the one who was killed in Outer Heaven while trying to frame Venom. Then Venom is the one who barely survives in Zanzibarland and has gone crazy convincing himself he is really Big Boss, to the point where he sets up a plan to wake up in 20 years and kill Zero.
Then the final scene is Venom, realizing the Foxdie didn't kill him because why would it, dusts himself off and decides to see what his family has been up to since the 70s.
Like that Venom got pissed at Big Boss and the real Big Boss is the one who was killed in Outer Heaven while trying to frame Venom. Then Venom is the one who barely survives in Zanzibarland and has gone crazy convincing himself he is really Big Boss, to the point where he sets up a plan to wake up in 20 years and kill Zero.
Then the final scene is Venom, realizing the Foxdie didn't kill him because why would it, dusts himself off and decides to see what his family has been up to since the 70s.
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
How do we know that's not where they buried Venom? I mean, he technically IS Big Boss :V
ZeroMaverick
Member
Yeah, 1999
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
As much as I dislike MGS4, I really loved the stupid shit that Liquid did in that game (also, the laugh makes that scene even better. God bless Patric Zimmerman).
fixed it for you
One of my biggest complaints pretty early on was that Ocelot's characterization was a bit off.
Now that I've actually finished it, I can safely say that Ocelot in MGSV is nothing like how he is in the other games. He's basically not even that same fucking character. This isn't even a budget related thing, Kojima must've forgotten who Ocelot was or something...
Because whoever is in there (Assuming it's not an empty grave) is stated to have died in 1999. Venom died in 1995, and I highly doubt his remains were ever recovered.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Big Boss never had a grave
This is genius and I love it despite it being an obvious retcon
It's The Boss's grave. The one on the right would say 1999 because it would otherwise give away the body double.Ōkami;179061395 said:
Edit: Eh, nevermind, it's obviously the collective identity of Big Boss that had a grave. Still a neat idea, though
SJRB
Gold Member
I think mission 43, 45 and 46 were supposed to work in tandem to push him over the edge - the game just does a terrible job of showing this.
- 43 is straight up ruthless and traumatizing
- 45 is losing an ally and friend [maybe even more?] who sacrifices herself to save him. Quiet is clearly the only one he has genuine feelings for.
- 46 is his whole world coming down on him as it is revealed that he has been living a lie
...I'd go berzerk after something like that.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Outer Heaven got blown the fuck up.
I highly doubt they ever recovered the Boss' body, either. Or if they did, that it makes no sense that they did.
I highly doubt they ever recovered the Boss' body, either. Or if they did, that it makes no sense that they did.
GreyOcelot
Member
There's an 11th photo. It's right outside her door
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
i highly doubt anyone ever even tried to recover Venom's body since him being alive is treated like common knowledge in MG2.
Dick Justice
Banned
Except Ocelot was faking it the whole time. Self-hypnosis, son.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
No way anyone got The Boss body, the site got bombed to hell. Of course this is Metal Gear.
Did you do the medbay?
Welcome to The Phantom Pain.
Huh, I forgot about that. Guess that absolutely confirms that to Kojima, and more interestingly to Solid Snake, BB wasn't some heartless demon. Just a guy with decent intentions who went about things in a really messed up way.
Oooh. So she like disappears from the bed in front of you or something?
Venom's body is not in that grave. Remember, everyone thinks that Big Boss survived the Outer Heaven incident, which means that they never recovered Venom's corpse. Big Boss appeared years later at Zanzibar, and no one said: "But wait! Then whose is the corpse we found in South Africa!?"
Venom was bombed to hell. Nothing was recovered from him. That grave is symbolic, as the inscription implies.
Regarding who wrote what's in the tomb, I'd guess it was EVA or Ocelot.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I will say, one detail of MGS5 I really liked was the otherwise-pointless FOB mission where Mosquito attacks Mother Base.
He went crazy and had heard rumors that Boss had sold out his own men and is now alive somewhere with some other plans. It's clearly a twist on the actual truth, but I like that the rumors of the real Big Boss were getting out there and it was Venom's job to stand in front of them.
He went crazy and had heard rumors that Boss had sold out his own men and is now alive somewhere with some other plans. It's clearly a twist on the actual truth, but I like that the rumors of the real Big Boss were getting out there and it was Venom's job to stand in front of them.
SJRB
Gold Member
Just bring her the photo, dude. Come on.
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
He still replaced his own ego with Liquid's, that counts as it still being Liquid pretty much.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
So at the end of the game, you get a tape explaining that you are not Big Boss, but an exact duplicate created by Zero to protect the real Big Boss from his own organization. This scene is really really good, and I love Kiefer's mocap work when Venom Snake smirks and looks at himself in the mirror with this look of power.
But the last few seconds of this scene are extremely important! When he flips the tape over, there's a time jump to 1995. How do I know this? Be perceptive; in the reflection of the mirror, there is a Diamond Dogs emblem on the bathroom door.
However, when Venom flips the tape over, that emblem becomes an Outer Heaven logo, and outside you can hear gunfire and chaos. What's the other side of that tape labeled?
Operation N313 aka the operation Solid Snake goes on in Metal Gear 1.
...
It can be safely assumed that whatever is on that N313 tape, Venom doesn't like it. He reads the info and immediately destroys a mirror in rage; that does not sound to me like the reaction of a happy man in a healthy partnership. Given the info we have, it can be reasonably assumed that Big Boss and Venom communicate through those cassette tapes; it can also be reasonably assumed that towards the end of Metal Gear 1, Venom Snake becomes aware of the fact that Solid Snake is coming to kill him and tries to sabotage that operation. During the game, your CO is Big Boss. He's basically the Campbell of Metal Gear 1; he gives you hints and suggestions on what to do. But suddenly, towards the end of the game, Big Boss contacts you on a new frequency and begins giving you bogus advice to try and sabotage your mission.
Real Big Boss's frequency: 120.85
Venom Snake's frequency: 120.13
This second Big Boss on the new frequency is Venom Snake trying to stall Solid Snake's mission. Now, what we see in MG1 is that the entire time, Big Boss is helpful in assisting Solid Snake in his mission to destroy Outer Heaven. We also know that Venom Snake contacts Solid and tries to stop the mission. If Big Boss didn't want Solid to kill Venom, he would have also worked to stop the mission, not assisted the whole time.
It isn't clear, and it will never be clear, what Big Boss's grand plan was for Operation Intrude N313.
As it stands in canon now, he expected Solid Snake to fail. Given the new information about Venom Snake, his motivations become even more nebulous. Killing Solid Snake is obviously in Big Boss's favor, but so would killing Venom Snake. Why? Venom Snake is one of the few individuals who knows of Big Boss's double and if he is capture alive would likely raise many uncomfortable questions for Big Boss in regards to his position within FOXHOUND.
The Outer Heaven uprising is intended to be a rebellion against the Patriots, but at some point it may have become obvious that it was going to fail. Venom Snake doesn't get the N313 tape until Snake has spent some time on his mission (you can hear him fighting outside the room Venom is in). At this point, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Big Boss to assume that the uprising was a failure, and that ultimately, the Patriots would destroy Outer Heaven. If Venom was captured, it is possible they could discover Big Boss's involvement in its founding.
So what about the damn MSX tape?
I think the tape contains Venom Snake's final mission: to die for the Big Boss legend. If Venom gives his life and takes responsibility for the uprising, Big Boss will be able to remain undercover and unharmed, ultimately allowing Venom to complete his mission as a lightning rod for Big Boss.
In the end, Venom gets the same mission that the US handed down to the Boss in MGS3: he is to die for his cause and will go down in history as a war criminal. No one will know who he was, no one will know what he sacrificed. His life, his face, his ideology, everything was to be taken by Big Boss and his legend. Big Boss does literally the same thing that the Philosophers/the US did to the Boss, the very thing he swore to stop so many years before.
Venom gets angry and rejects this mission; he punches the mirror and contacts Solid to try and stop the inevitable. In the end, Venom does what the Boss doesn't: he rejects his mission and implicates Big Boss in the whole thing. He tells Solid that he is Big Boss, causing Solid and everyone else to think that Big Boss had double crossed them and was simultaneously the leader of Outer Heaven and the CO of FOXHOUND, thus blowing Big Boss's cover. Solid kills Venom Snake, and Big Boss goes into hiding to build Zanzibar Land. And well, the rest is history.
if only they did this shit in the final game, would have been a better ending thats for damn sure
WrenchNinja
Member
Oh geez, no joke.
Wasn't he the guy who said there were actually Boss battles in this game and that they would be good?
That's because there were no remains. Solid Snake may have killed Big Boss' Phantom in Metal Gear, but that is simply metaphorical. He killed Venom Snake's ability to be Big Boss' Phantom, but freed him to be something more. Shortly after the destruction of the first Outer Heaven, Ocelot extracted Venom and put him on life support. With a combination of parasite therapy, cybernetics, and early nanomachine developments, Venom was revived with a brand new arm which could pass as a normal arm rather than a robotic one. He was given new hypnotheraphy by Ocelot, now under orders from the Patriots, to believe that he was the non-existent third clone of Big Boss. A "Solidus Snake" identical to Big Boss in every way. To feed into that illusion, they also brainwashed a child named Jack to believe he was trained by Solidus over the years. The bond between the two reinforced their shared false histories. After the fall of the real Big Boss in Zanzibar Land, the Patriots decided to act again, allowing Venom Snake's new persona to become the 43rd President of the United States.
Dick Justice
Banned
Someone should get Kojima re-hired by Konami so he can get this shit written and ready to go.
WrenchNinja
Member
Please stop, you are ruining mgs2 for me.
One and the same.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
And one day Big Boss is stiched up using Venom "Solidus"' body. All one big loop! Big Boss and Venom are now one!
Omg, #datcycle! It all makes sense now. Kojima planned this from the start. #based #truth #kojimaisgod
The Silver
Member
that would be one long ass elaborate dream
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
GreyOcelot
Member
Hahaha, it's a testament to (or an indictment on) kojima's writing that this doesn't sound remotely crazy to me
Sounds about right.
And that's why I don't want Kojima to touch the series ever again.
Love Deterrence
Member
Konami Kaminandesu
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Kojima doesn't like it when people like his villains. So he always retcons them to be triple agents who were actually good guys in deep cover/hypnosis the whole time to follow some elaborate 50 year plan.
new head canon.
So at the end of the game, you get a tape explaining that you are not Big Boss, but an exact duplicate created by Zero to protect the real Big Boss from his own organization. This scene is really really good, and I love Kiefer's mocap work when Venom Snake smirks and looks at himself in the mirror with this look of power.
But the last few seconds of this scene are extremely important! When he flips the tape over, there's a time jump to 1995. How do I know this? Be perceptive; in the reflection of the mirror, there is a Diamond Dogs emblem on the bathroom door.
However, when Venom flips the tape over, that emblem becomes an Outer Heaven logo, and outside you can hear gunfire and chaos. What's the other side of that tape labeled?
Operation N313 aka the operation Solid Snake goes on in Metal Gear 1.
...
It can be safely assumed that whatever is on that N313 tape, Venom doesn't like it. He reads the info and immediately destroys a mirror in rage; that does not sound to me like the reaction of a happy man in a healthy partnership. Given the info we have, it can be reasonably assumed that Big Boss and Venom communicate through those cassette tapes; it can also be reasonably assumed that towards the end of Metal Gear 1, Venom Snake becomes aware of the fact that Solid Snake is coming to kill him and tries to sabotage that operation. During the game, your CO is Big Boss. He's basically the Campbell of Metal Gear 1; he gives you hints and suggestions on what to do. But suddenly, towards the end of the game, Big Boss contacts you on a new frequency and begins giving you bogus advice to try and sabotage your mission.
Real Big Boss's frequency: 120.85
Venom Snake's frequency: 120.13
This second Big Boss on the new frequency is Venom Snake trying to stall Solid Snake's mission. Now, what we see in MG1 is that the entire time, Big Boss is helpful in assisting Solid Snake in his mission to destroy Outer Heaven. We also know that Venom Snake contacts Solid and tries to stop the mission. If Big Boss didn't want Solid to kill Venom, he would have also worked to stop the mission, not assisted the whole time.
It isn't clear, and it will never be clear, what Big Boss's grand plan was for Operation Intrude N313.
As it stands in canon now, he expected Solid Snake to fail. Given the new information about Venom Snake, his motivations become even more nebulous. Killing Solid Snake is obviously in Big Boss's favor, but so would killing Venom Snake. Why? Venom Snake is one of the few individuals who knows of Big Boss's double and if he is capture alive would likely raise many uncomfortable questions for Big Boss in regards to his position within FOXHOUND.
The Outer Heaven uprising is intended to be a rebellion against the Patriots, but at some point it may have become obvious that it was going to fail. Venom Snake doesn't get the N313 tape until Snake has spent some time on his mission (you can hear him fighting outside the room Venom is in). At this point, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Big Boss to assume that the uprising was a failure, and that ultimately, the Patriots would destroy Outer Heaven. If Venom was captured, it is possible they could discover Big Boss's involvement in its founding.
So what about the damn MSX tape?
I think the tape contains Venom Snake's final mission: to die for the Big Boss legend. If Venom gives his life and takes responsibility for the uprising, Big Boss will be able to remain undercover and unharmed, ultimately allowing Venom to complete his mission as a lightning rod for Big Boss.
In the end, Venom gets the same mission that the US handed down to the Boss in MGS3: he is to die for his cause and will go down in history as a war criminal. No one will know who he was, no one will know what he sacrificed. His life, his face, his ideology, everything was to be taken by Big Boss and his legend. Big Boss does literally the same thing that the Philosophers/the US did to the Boss, the very thing he swore to stop so many years before.
Venom gets angry and rejects this mission; he punches the mirror and contacts Solid to try and stop the inevitable. In the end, Venom does what the Boss doesn't: he rejects his mission and implicates Big Boss in the whole thing. He tells Solid that he is Big Boss, causing Solid and everyone else to think that Big Boss had double crossed them and was simultaneously the leader of Outer Heaven and the CO of FOXHOUND, thus blowing Big Boss's cover. Solid kills Venom Snake, and Big Boss goes into hiding to build Zanzibar Land. And well, the rest is history.
Why couldn't they have done this instead... holy shit
This is so much better than what we got
Love Deterrence
Member
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
So much hypotherapy.
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