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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
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smh Kojima
When you boil it down, Big Boss' story is about a loss of humanity. Snake's is a story of convincing himself of his humanity. That's why his character development was so good in MGS1 and why he was a such a great character in MGS2 thanks to what he had learned.
Hell even his MGS4 depiction (which many people criticize for losing his spark from MGS2) was somewhat in-line with the overbearing cynicism he has from his aging syndrome. Snake is constantly at odds with what makes him human, but Big Boss really only had one thing that made him human which he lost after MGS3.
Great post, this is why I find Solid Snake more endearing and interesting than Big Boss overall. The guy struggles with his fate of being a man created weapon, but still somehow manages to stay sane and be close to his humanity and values even though the guy has been manipulated and lied to most of his life.
As some other posters have said, Solid Snake even comes of as one of the most 'human' characters in the MGS saga overall. Kojima saying differently really makes no sense.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
"The way you angle your body and twist your feet to absorb the momentum. That's a more of a rollerblade technique. Those are some nice shoes, I'll give you that but those Nike logos give you no tactical advantage whatsoever. Besides, you're forgetting one more very basic thing. You don't have the stamina to catch me."
Young Ocelot was a whiny bitch who had to be constantly put in his place by his betters.
Wtf is that third gif?
edit: oh the special videos
Also, it's very apparent that Solid Snake actually gives a shit about people. Keeping close friends, feeling loss for people (that aren't even necessarily on his side) and staying true to his friends and not betraying them for selfish reasons.
Big Boss on the other hand does not in the end. Just look at him in MGSV, he's selling out his apparently best man (the medic), Miller and other motherbase staff, just so that he can be safer when he starts his new organization/nation. And that's before the guy starts actively going out his way creating wars and taking in war orphans etc. Big Boss effectively lost his humanity after losing the Boss.
Big Boss on the other hand does not in the end. Just look at him in MGSV, he's selling out his apparently best man (the medic), Miller and other motherbase staff, just so that he can be safer when he starts his new organization/nation. And that's before the guy starts actively going out his way creating wars and taking in war orphans etc. Big Boss effectively lost his humanity after losing the Boss.
smh Kojima
When you boil it down, Big Boss' story is about a loss of humanity. Snake's is a story of convincing himself of his humanity. That's why his character development was so good in MGS1 and why he was a such a great character in MGS2 thanks to what he had learned.
Hell even his MGS4 depiction (which many people criticize for losing his spark from MGS2) was somewhat in-line with the overbearing cynicism he has from his aging syndrome. Snake is constantly at odds with what makes him human, but Big Boss really only had one thing that made him human which he lost after MGS3. Throughout a majority of the series, Solid has always been the one expressing most of the "true" emotions.
That's well put.
Which is why he is infinitely more interesting as a character than Solid. Big Boss is most certainly a grey character with a lot of questionable morals.Solid is a generic good guy when you think about it. I would have loved to see Big Boss's descent into madness play out here and I thought the trailers indicated that would happen. Super disappointed that it did not.
Solid's story was tragic in MGS4 but it was still great.
Dick Justice
Banned
Kojima still tried his hardest to turn him into a joke. Just look at the moustache. He couldn't even give him a decent beard.
Kojima doesn't know what he's talking about really.
brianmcdoogle
Member
Big Boss's character is inconsistent and schizophrenic. Solid Snake has a decent and fairly clear (at least for MGS standards) through-line with maybe the exception on what Snake was up to during the gap and rise of the Patriots AI between MGS2 and MGS4.
Chakra_Khan
Member
Kojima still tried his hardest to turn him into a joke. Just look at the moustache. He couldn't even give him a decent beard.
Lee Van Cleef.
Chico was in love with Paz, right? I keep getting this feeling that he was intended to be fake big boss. It would give more weight to her hallucination, as well as his new pseudo-relationship with Quiet. Not to mention the child soldiers sub-plot, since he effectively loses his innocence during the crash, and becoming a full-on commander himself upon waking up.
Charlouie Jonesman
Banned
I can't really hate on Old Snake's mustache.
Kojima still tried his hardest to turn him into a joke. Just look at the moustache. He couldn't even give him a decent beard.
Solid Snake is definitely not just a "generic good guy hero stereotype", and even if he was, that alone doesn't make him less or more interesting.
That would be like saying Big Boss isn't interesting because he's just a Fallen Hero stereotype.
And as you say, they don't even tried portraying the guy as that evil or questionable morally in MGSV, at least not enough. So our opinions aside regarding SS or BB, at least we can agree that they definitely botched the potential to show and depict Big Boss descent into villainy.
Either way, I was only really addressing the fact that Solid Snake definitely comes off more as a human than Big Boss, regardless of what Kojima says.
Kojima still tried his hardest to turn him into a joke. Just look at the moustache. He couldn't even give him a decent beard.
Am I the only one who really digs his Tom Selleck mustache? The man is rocking it imo lol
Snake and Octacon were going around the world destroying all the metal gears they could find,trying to rid the world of them.
Edit. Would have made for a really bad ass game. Travel the world, infiltrate different bases, and confront a metal gear boss at the end of each one.
I like games that have wrong choices mixed in. If every choice is equivalent to each other choice and no one ever misses out on anything, then what's the danger in your decision-making? Without the ability to fail, there's no point.
I like these scenes because they play on the scene at the end of 3, only this time you actually have a choice to not pull the trigger. However, in skull face's case the men around you won't let you take him alive.
KOMANI
KOMANI
Solid had always been the better character. Big Boss was always the villain, but Kojima happened and now we have this. There's nothing wrong with Big Boss, but his character development was supposed to lead into villainy, much like Black Adam or Walter White.
Sometimes creators need to take a step back from their creations and be aware of the fact that their creations are now alive. Meaning, you can't suffocate your product with your own ideology if it no longer applies. Let it breath.
Sometimes creators need to take a step back from their creations and be aware of the fact that their creations are now alive. Meaning, you can't suffocate your product with your own ideology if it no longer applies. Let it breath.
The Silver
Member
I think Big Boss is potentially a lot more interesting character than Solid, Kojima never fully realized it though outside of MGS3.
Yeah, but "mixed in" is not really a thing with a non-choice and a content diminishing choice. It's really obsolute.
That's what they were up to between MGS and MGS2.
What they did between 2 & 4, aside from raising Sunny, is never explicitly stated.
WordsintheWater
Member
This game would have been infinitely better if it delved into how Big Boss became a villain, instead we get some weirdo shit for no reason. Seeing a character that I cared about in MGS3 turn into something that I fought against in the other Metal Gears would have been amazing. Instead we get a story that really doesn't even matter if it existed or not, does anyone really care about what happened in this?
Was that in the original release or the rerelease?
Ōkami;179375914 said:
You may be right. It's been awhile since I played the game but I thought that was going on after the tanker incident too, he takes a "break" to help Raiden in MGS 2 because there is a huge metal gear arsenal and all the rays too.
Thought there was still some clean up after this, but I could be wrong.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Original.
Chakra_Khan
Member
I would've if the elements, which were all there, were handled properly.
Charlouie Jonesman
Banned
That was already in the original release. But even before that, they confirmed the Meryl ending as canon in interviews and such.
That being said, it is true that she was absent in MGS2 so that people could still chose their preferred ending, despite a canon one being confirmed.
Nowadays I always submit to the torture straight away, as a big "Fuck you!" to MGS4.
I...don't get what you're saying in this post.
I was saying that I don't like games full of equivalent choices. I want to be able to fuck up my first playthrough if it's a game with a branching story. I'm glad that there wasn't a different buddy you get for killing quiet. That would have sucked because now I'm missing out on half the content no matter what I do. The ability to fuck up is so much more stressful because I'm scared on that first playthrough if shooting her will actually do what I think it does. That's the value of choices, not cynical hindsight.
I like Solid's design in 4. It's so distinct and the fact that it looks bad adds to Snake's personality, because HE probably thinks it looks good. That's so great.
And I heard one of the reasons why KP gave him the mustache in the first place is so that Old Snake and Liquid Ocelot would look more like brothers.
If anything, Kojima made Solid Snake infinitely more appealing than Big Boss in MGS4.
I don't either, and that's not only because you aren't even the Big Boss. It's just that almost everything that happens in the game seems really inconsequential overall besides the whole "Zero worked with BB to protect him when he was in a coma and they also made phantom that would take the heat of BB". The fact that the story is so weak, disjointed and horridly presented doesn't help either.
WordsintheWater
Member
That's the thing though, I would have liked this in some sense if it was at least handled properly, it wasn't even handled okay, it was handled terribly.
Even in MGS3 he's not really that great of a character. It works because the story doesn't need him to be (and admittedly he has more interactions in optional codec conversations) but after the great work they did with Solid Snake in MGS1 and MGS2, Naked Snake most of the time came across as a simple minded gun buff.
That Kojima interview honestly makes me question if he even understands his own games
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Both.
Dynasty8
Member
After beating the game, I feel like so much was left out.
I would have loved to see more on Zero, more on Eva, the Patriots, more on child Solid Snake and Eli (the deleted scene with Eli were awesome).
To be quite honest, I hate the mission based structure too. It really affects the pacing of the story and I felt like a good (70-80%) of the story took place at Motherbase or on cassette tapes. The story was a huge letdown IMO.
However, in regards to gameplay, this is the arguably the best and funniest stealth gameplay I have ever come across.
I would have loved to see more on Zero, more on Eva, the Patriots, more on child Solid Snake and Eli (the deleted scene with Eli were awesome).
To be quite honest, I hate the mission based structure too. It really affects the pacing of the story and I felt like a good (70-80%) of the story took place at Motherbase or on cassette tapes. The story was a huge letdown IMO.
However, in regards to gameplay, this is the arguably the best and funniest stealth gameplay I have ever come across.
Chakra_Khan
Member
Back when MGS3 was the only game to have Big Boss as a playable character I was also one of those people who felt like Big Boss was a much cooler "character" than Solid, but indeed, that's kind of been lost ever since the full conversion never really happened. He's kind of been stuck in place ever since. MGS3 was pretty much the only prequel the series ever needed and nothing else has really justified the depiction. There's only one thing I feel MGSV does spectacularly as a capped set piece as a villainous turn, and that's the last few minutes of it's ending.
Can you guys imagine if this entire moment of the ending played after an eye-opening moment where we've basically come to realize that Big Boss has effectively alienated the entire world? Ignore for a moment that Venom ever existed and that it's his depiction, and imagine that it was immediately representative of Big Boss himself. Perhaps even the tape he played prior could have been something he got from Skull Face that he'd been keeping as a memento ever since his death, just never really thought into the meaning of it. Perhaps it would play into the whole symbolic red herring that was placed into the launch trailer and that Big Boss would realize that they're the two sides of the same coin. In any case it's just spitballing, but point is, imagine that part of the cutscene in a game where we've consistently built up Big Boss' villainous empire now that we're cycling back to the end of the beginning, with Solid Snake now infiltrating Outer Heaven, finally bringing the series full circle and putting an end to the entire series. Kojima sat on a fucking goldmine of a well directed sequence and it gives me chills watching it, and yeah it feels like it should have been appended to a much more daring, consistent game.
Anyway, cycling back to the whole "Big Boss hasn't been utilized well as a protagonist after MGS3" point, ironically enough I feel like Portable Ops is the only other MGS game with a playable Big Boss that actually somewhat forwarded the direction of the plot and was somewhat resonant with the existing canon. And Kojima didn't even have any real part of it's development. It explained nicely how Foxhound came to be, how Big Boss got the funds to begin Outer Heaven, how the Patriots eventually came to be etc. Kojima just had to get his hands on the interquels though and write in a bunch of crazy organizations for Big Boss to jump between, eventually having that game drown out in the static haze as well.
lucablight
Member
How much of an impact did the loss of Fukushima have on the story of the MGS series? I've noticed all the games he was involved in the story seemed to have alot more "heart" for want of a better word. MGS4, PW and GZ/TPP were all lacking the spark that was present in the initially trilogy.
Moon_frogger
Member
Big boss is Kojima. He's said as much in many interviews. Snake is also the Same age as Kojima isn't he? Is he in v.
WordsintheWater
Member
Exactly, I don't even mind the twist, it's just that nothing of consequence happens in this. And when you see the end results of the hardships of a character and you don't see their journey to that result, it feels like slap in the face.
That's what's funny about kojima's quote. Not only does it go against the theme of his games, but in reality Big Boss is the true clone character. Take everything we know about Naked Snake in MGS3 and dow subtract all the characteristics that he inherited from Solid Snake. This means his physical appearance, voice, smoking, catch phrases, weapons, his whole storyline about a mentor who betrays him, etc. On his own, there's not much to him.
We'll never really know but as you said after 3, the writing did take a turn for the worst. So take it as you will.
Unknown One
Member
He's a solid Snake clone, but worst. Only compelling thing about him is his eyepatch.
And the pony tail but that turned out not to be his.
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