Kenzodielocke
Banned
I like how you can put screenshots from the ending in the screenshot threads and people won't even noticed they get spoiled.
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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
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So...some thoughts on the ending.
Quiet's departure was great. I thought it was probably the best story arc of the entire game.
Mission 46...was...something. I'm not sure where I feel on it.
I will say this, though. I feel like I would've enjoyed the game's story a hell of a lot more if you weren't playing as "Big Boss" the entire time and instead playing as your own individual soldier. Like presented as a side-story in the MGS universe. Because that's basically what MGSV is. Going in thinking it's going to be some grand story of BB's rise and fall set it up for disappointment, imo. Kojima kind of tricked us into thinking that's where the story is going, when it's not. Which is why I think if I was playing as a different character from the get go
it would be much better. My expectations would be this being a more cohesive, inclusive storyline instead of the topper for the Big Boss saga, if you catch my drift. Which it would've been if I was playing a different character.
Anyway, still really like the game. I saw the twist coming and enjoyed what I could of the ending.
I do have a few questions, though (I haven't listened to all the extra truth tapes yet):
- Was
and BB both in a coma at the same time? 9 years?
- I'm going to listen to the truth tapes that remain...are they good? Do they any new plot revelations that I should avoid the spoiler thread for?
- It's implied and revealed later Huey killed Strangelove. Yet I still don't understand his motive in doing so. Cipher ordering him to?
- Where the fuck Eli
I probably have more I'm forgetting.
Quiet's departure was great. I thought it was probably the best story arc of the entire game.
Mission 46...was...something. I'm not sure where I feel on it.
I will say this, though. I feel like I would've enjoyed the game's story a hell of a lot more if you weren't playing as "Big Boss" the entire time and instead playing as your own individual soldier. Like presented as a side-story in the MGS universe. Because that's basically what MGSV is. Going in thinking it's going to be some grand story of BB's rise and fall set it up for disappointment, imo. Kojima kind of tricked us into thinking that's where the story is going, when it's not. Which is why I think if I was playing as a different character from the get go
which, technically, you are
Anyway, still really like the game. I saw the twist coming and enjoyed what I could of the ending.
I do have a few questions, though (I haven't listened to all the extra truth tapes yet):
- Was
V
- I'm going to listen to the truth tapes that remain...are they good? Do they any new plot revelations that I should avoid the spoiler thread for?
- It's implied and revealed later Huey killed Strangelove. Yet I still don't understand his motive in doing so. Cipher ordering him to?
- Where the fuck Eli
I probably have more I'm forgetting.
Eli is in Chapter 3, which doesn't actually exist
you can look up the missing cutscene, it's out there
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Go on youtube and watch episode 51.
Storm Raider
Banned
I heard on here V was kept asleep artificially until Big Boss woke up.
Truth tapes are very interesting, I don't think there is anything ground breaking in the truth tapes. There is some small tidbits though.
Idk about Strangelove, I haven't really read into that.
As for Eli, Watch Episode 51 in the OP.
Ocelot: And whatever you do, don't show him his real face in the mirror before changing it.
Doctor: Sure, no problem.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Yeah the Strangelove thing didn't really make sense...Huey said Skullface killed her, then he was accused of killing her, then he said she killed herself, and then they just kind of drop it until they find the recording...but then that's also kind of vague.
I guess I get that Huey's supposed to be this kind of vague weasely character who you can never really pin down because he's kind of a piece of shit, but that could've maybe used a bit more clarification.
I guess I get that Huey's supposed to be this kind of vague weasely character who you can never really pin down because he's kind of a piece of shit, but that could've maybe used a bit more clarification.
eso76
Member
In a way it is impressive in itself that Kojima somehow manages to fit another piece of the puzzle in there without the others falling apart.
Well, not all of them at least.
People need to realise the guy has been forced to keep adding stuff to a story that had few loose ends, while making each game's story entertaining in itself.
Granted, no one ordered to stuff all the twists and all his ramblings in each title, and i feel like he had been building his own maze around himself.
I feel MGSV story could still have been handled differently though.
Btw, burned Big Boss / Venom from the last trailer isn't anywhere in the game, i gather. Right ?
Oh, another thing that is kind of neat. I was always wondering why BB felt like such a different character in TPP and now I don't have to wonder. 
Ishmael felt more like BB in the Prologue than V did the entire game and look how that turned out. Thinking on it, I think Kojima tried to keep the mystery alive with BB and give him an out for "making him into a bad guy". Essentially, this way we get a big question mark on who BB really is in the future. We all assumed he had to become a villain (as Snake kills him...twice!) but now it's unclear if he ever becomes one. I'm not saying I like that (I would've preferred if we saw BB go full bad guy in this game), but I suppose I can see why he did it. V clearly has the capacity for becoming evil, it's pretty clear to me how he's so easily manipulated by Kaz and Ocelot. Kaz is straight up evil by the end of the game, imo. The real BB wanted and out and he got one, I guess.
Anyway, I'm still really 50/50 on this whole twist. On one hand, I really like the self-contained story of a single soldier's rise in the Metal Gear universe. In that respect it's cool. But the whole bait-and-switch "you're Big Boss....JUST KIDDING" wasn't that effective and seemed a little needless. I would've preferred you just being a different dude from the beginning and at the end it's revealed Ishmael is BB. That would've still gave BB an "out" because he could've faked his death or something. But then the game wouldn't have sold so much because so many players want to be Big Boss. So there's that. Also, I'm obviously disappointed that we don't get any more story for Big Boss, because he's still the best Metal Gear character
Ishmael felt more like BB in the Prologue than V did the entire game and look how that turned out. Thinking on it, I think Kojima tried to keep the mystery alive with BB and give him an out for "making him into a bad guy". Essentially, this way we get a big question mark on who BB really is in the future. We all assumed he had to become a villain (as Snake kills him...twice!) but now it's unclear if he ever becomes one. I'm not saying I like that (I would've preferred if we saw BB go full bad guy in this game), but I suppose I can see why he did it. V clearly has the capacity for becoming evil, it's pretty clear to me how he's so easily manipulated by Kaz and Ocelot. Kaz is straight up evil by the end of the game, imo. The real BB wanted and out and he got one, I guess.
Anyway, I'm still really 50/50 on this whole twist. On one hand, I really like the self-contained story of a single soldier's rise in the Metal Gear universe. In that respect it's cool. But the whole bait-and-switch "you're Big Boss....JUST KIDDING" wasn't that effective and seemed a little needless. I would've preferred you just being a different dude from the beginning and at the end it's revealed Ishmael is BB. That would've still gave BB an "out" because he could've faked his death or something. But then the game wouldn't have sold so much because so many players want to be Big Boss. So there's that. Also, I'm obviously disappointed that we don't get any more story for Big Boss, because he's still the best Metal Gear character
except non-MGSV Ocelot
Not true. Snake has always been an extension of the player first and foremost. Dating back too MGS1 when they gave Snake a blank face so the player could imagine himself as the character. MGSV was an attempt at making the player Big Boss in actuality. No the two of you together are him.
So, guys, I need your help. I think another huge plot hole just came into my mind, one I haven't really thought about before.
Big Boss used Venom to draw all attention to him and Diamond Dogs while he built Outer Heaven. Sure. I don't really get the logistics here (Is MG1-Outer Heaven the Outer Heaven Big Boss built during and after Phantom Pain? If so, why is Venom in charge of it in MG1? Or did Diamond Dogs at some point turn into MG1-Outer heaven. If so, what happened to the Outer Heaven Big Boss wanted to build? Was that Zanzibar Land? So Zanzibar Land was the plan and the real Outer heaven all along?) but sure, let's not get into that too much. My problem is this:
Big Boss draws attention towards Venom and Diamond Dogs. They don't hide. They are very visible, even foot soldiers you meet in the field go "Hey, Big Boss is back and leading some mercenary force!". His whole job is to be visible and draw attention.
Let's skip a few years to Metal Gear 1. Venom is the leader of Outer Heaven. Everyone thinks he is Big Boss. Everyone knows Big Boss is leading that big mercenary force, since that was the expressed goal of Venom.
Now the US sends Solid Snake into Outer Heaven...with Big Boss as his commander?! Wat. How?! Shouldn't the US be aware that Big Boss (actually Venom) is the leader of Outer Heaven? Wasn't the expressed reason for Venom's existence as Big Boss to make everyone aware that he is, in fact, leading said mercenary force? But if the US know that Big Boss (actually Venom) is leading Outer Heaven...shouldn't they be kinda suspicious if Big Boss is actually on their team, helping them infilitrating Outer Heaven. Shouldn't someone say "Hey, Big Boss, uh, aren't you actually already the leater of Outer Heaven right now? How can you be here, too? ARE THERE TWO OF YO?!".
One explanation would be: The US doesn't know. In that case I have another question: WHAT THE FUCK WAS THE POINT IN TURNING THE MEDIC INTO BIG BOSS?! I thought he was SUPPOSED to draw attention from XOF and governments around the world so they wouldn't bother real Big Boss. If the US doesn't even KNOW who the leader of Outer Heaven is, why in the fuck was it necessary for Venom to exist in the first place?
Halp.
Big Boss used Venom to draw all attention to him and Diamond Dogs while he built Outer Heaven. Sure. I don't really get the logistics here (Is MG1-Outer Heaven the Outer Heaven Big Boss built during and after Phantom Pain? If so, why is Venom in charge of it in MG1? Or did Diamond Dogs at some point turn into MG1-Outer heaven. If so, what happened to the Outer Heaven Big Boss wanted to build? Was that Zanzibar Land? So Zanzibar Land was the plan and the real Outer heaven all along?) but sure, let's not get into that too much. My problem is this:
Big Boss draws attention towards Venom and Diamond Dogs. They don't hide. They are very visible, even foot soldiers you meet in the field go "Hey, Big Boss is back and leading some mercenary force!". His whole job is to be visible and draw attention.
Let's skip a few years to Metal Gear 1. Venom is the leader of Outer Heaven. Everyone thinks he is Big Boss. Everyone knows Big Boss is leading that big mercenary force, since that was the expressed goal of Venom.
Now the US sends Solid Snake into Outer Heaven...with Big Boss as his commander?! Wat. How?! Shouldn't the US be aware that Big Boss (actually Venom) is the leader of Outer Heaven? Wasn't the expressed reason for Venom's existence as Big Boss to make everyone aware that he is, in fact, leading said mercenary force? But if the US know that Big Boss (actually Venom) is leading Outer Heaven...shouldn't they be kinda suspicious if Big Boss is actually on their team, helping them infilitrating Outer Heaven. Shouldn't someone say "Hey, Big Boss, uh, aren't you actually already the leater of Outer Heaven right now? How can you be here, too? ARE THERE TWO OF YO?!".
One explanation would be: The US doesn't know. In that case I have another question: WHAT THE FUCK WAS THE POINT IN TURNING THE MEDIC INTO BIG BOSS?! I thought he was SUPPOSED to draw attention from XOF and governments around the world so they wouldn't bother real Big Boss. If the US doesn't even KNOW who the leader of Outer Heaven is, why in the fuck was it necessary for Venom to exist in the first place?
Halp.
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of a problem with Metal Gear narrative. The series is so in your face and so lacking in subtlety, that when/if Kojima actually ever decides to push a narrative point without writing an hour long monologue to explain it, it's hard to consider it to be an actual thing.
Itchy//Tasty
Member
The leader of Outer Heaven is a mystery at the beginning of MG1, no-one knows who it is. FOXHOUND sends Grey Fox, then Solid Snake in to sort things out. When the leader is revealed to be "Big Boss" (Venom), the real Big Boss gets the fuck out of FOXHOUND and lies low whilst the whole thing pans out.
Venom is trying to kind of do the same general thing as the real BB, but with Venom 'the dream' is a fortress housing an army without a nation. With BB it's much bigger and a whole militarised nation that he wants to dismantle Cipher with, and give a true home to soldiers. They both get their shot, they both fall to Solid.
The point of creating Venom is that in the 1970's and 80's, everyone wants Big Boss dead. He created a military superpower, was 'strong-armed' into incorporating nukes and a Metal Gear, and becomes an enemy of the world. Skullface is the guy who actually brings him down, and in the aftermath the phantom was for BB's own safety whilst he built his real plan in secret. Venom and Miller draw all the fire for a while. Eventually at some unspecified part of the lore, the world stops gunning for BB (possibly because a greater common threat emerges in the 90's) and he becomes a U.S agent/CO again and begins leading FOXHOUND. He's protected in a way by being in Cipher's wing, but is planning his big coup for the future. At some point in the lore DD falls and the phantom gives it another shot later, in a different location, in 1995.
Miller finds out he's being played and get's a mad-on for BB, possibly causing the disbandment of DD, becomes an army drill instructor and eventually backs Solid Snake in his attempts to bring down both versions of "Big Boss". Ocelot sees it all runs smoothly and backs Eli when he's old enough to make his own play, and Solidus although it's all a triple-cross. Zero wants to carry on the will of the Boss, sees this as a global spy network that runs everything, giving the world common goals to pull towards. In the late-70's he's poisoned by Skeletor but it's not a killing poison - it gives him dementia. He says one final goodbye to comatose BB, puts the phantom plan in motion - a ruse to protect his friend - and goes off somewhere to become the poor old bastard you see at the end of MGS4. Meanwhile his will is carried on in A.I's designed by Strangelove and maintained by DARPA along with the spy network, and they eventually fuck the whole world up even further.
The reason why there's so much confusion is because so much is left unspecified, details of the switcheroo and a detailed look at how things really panned out and what exactly would be retconned by this from the retro games. Plot-holes abound, so it's difficult to nail down the full truth with how little we have. You'll go crazy trying to untangle it.
We need a REAL missing link. How BB went back to FOXHOUND.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Is there really any doubt in your mind?
Itchy//Tasty
Member
The way it's constantly glazed over almost tells me that Kojima wants to forget that he did. I wonder if there would ever be an MG1 remake, if it would just be Campbell as the C/O and no-one else.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Shit, as I was posting this I just realized that if Kojima ever somehow ends up at the helm of another Metal Gear game he'll probably set it between this one and MG1 and call it THE MISSING LINK IN THE SAGA and then just turn around and use it to explain why Psycho Mantis apparently lost so much power between V and MGS1.
"The third boy". Who are the other two?
Yes I know it is a terrible idea to think this way.
eso76
Member
I think it is somewhat explained why psychic powers are stronger in kids and teenagers.
Maybe.
MGS2, and a lesser extent of MGS1 is all about a soldier's abilities being mental, not genetic.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Yeah it was something about myelin sheathes or something like that.
I think episode 46 was an interesting idea that was poorly executed. I wasn't too bummed about going through the hospital again, since it had been about 55 hours since I'd played through it. The problem though is that the revelation in the hospital bed doesn't really change the player's perception of what happens afterwards very much. Even with the knowledge about the "truth," what happens afterwards doesn't really mean anyhing different than it did in episode 1. So, what you're left with is the revelation early on, 30 minutes of the same tutorial you played in the beginning, and that brief new clip at the end of the level.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
You can listen to the whole recording of what happened when she first ended up in the AI pod. That plus the backstory puzzles out to the following:
Huey and Strangelove have a kid. Huey uses that kid as a test pilot for Sahelanthropus because the cockpit is so tiny, as it wasn't meant to actually have a pilot inside. Strangelove opposes this. At some point, she accidentally closes the door behind her when she goes into the AI pod for some reason. She starts banging on the door for Huey to let her out. Huey decides to take advantage of the situation by simply not opening the door, leaving her to run out of air/starve to death in the AI pod. He didn't put her in there, so he technically wasn't lying when he said he didn't kill her, but he also could have easily saved her life, so it's pretty much the same thing as killing her.
KOMANI
KOMANI
The best thing in the whole game in my opinion.
I wish that KojimaPro would have stopped trying to tie the series together sequal to sequal (or prequal), and focus on telling new/fresh stories with new characters. Of course it can be done in the Metal Gear universe. There was no reason to shoehorn explanations for last year's Metal Gear into this year's Metal Gear (metaphorically not figuratively). It made the product suffer.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
So if they had made Mission 46 about Big Boss's perspective of the Prologue and adding Mission 51, would the game have way less backlash from people that have finished it?
I think so at least, and I keep wondering why the fuck it wasn't handled that way, budget problems? It's just 2 damn missions, IMPORTANT ones.
And like 30% of Mission 51 was already done, what the hell happened?
I think so at least, and I keep wondering why the fuck it wasn't handled that way, budget problems? It's just 2 damn missions, IMPORTANT ones.
And like 30% of Mission 51 was already done, what the hell happened?
CrichtonKicks
Member
It always made sense to me- BB decides that in order to protect Outer Heaven and keep tabs on the Patriots he essentially pretends to make amends with Zero or whoever and agrees to come back into the fold and take over Foxhound. He's now on the inside and in a position to manipulate any information on Outer Heaven's existence and it's goals.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
Zero isn't functioning by time the events of mg1 happen though. If he made amends with anyone it was Donald Anderson.
snake_eater_raiden
Member
I realized this too.
The Medic underwent surgery just 48 hours before he escaped in the opening sequence.
But when Zero visited Big Boss, the surgery had already happened.
Kojima is just a terrible writer, I suppose.
Itchy//Tasty
Member
I like that too, but we never see or hear of it outside of a few references in the older games. I think a days of FOXHOUND game, set in the early 90's would be the absolute best missing link for the series, far better than even a WWII game. It doesn't even have to have familiar faces (outside of maybe Ocelot and Grey Fox), as Solid was a green beret and Liquid was in SAS and Iraq, Mantis was in the FBI for a while etc. Fascinating part of the timeline that's basically only told to us.
Those two changes would have made a significant difference to me.
Replaying the linear, scripted, cut-scene-heavy, 1-hour-long tutorial as the last level, with the tutorial prompts left in, is just laughable and utter shit, and even if the twist had been good it could never have justified it. Leaving the Eli / Mantis / Sahelantrhopus story-line unresolved didn't sit right with me either. Fixing those two things would go quite some way.
Had they done those two things you suggested I would have said the story was still bad, but just bad, rather than an utter unfinished disaster. After all, I had already made up my mind that the story was poor during the famous Skullface car ride - I won't forget just looking around my living room as that was occurring, wishing my brother or someone was there so I could have an outlet to say "Can you believe this shit? Is this game even done?"
Graphics Horse
Member
The way I understood it cutscenes were 30% refined, I think it must have been dropped a long time ago or Kojima would have spoiled at least some little part of it with trailers a year or two ago.
Who knows what happened. I guess there could have been some objections to forcing the player to shoot a kid but idk.
Can't speak for everyone, but for me not at all.
While the execution also failed, I think the fundamental ideas core to the story are horribly flawed. You can't fix that by changing one or two missions.
Konami wasn't going to pay for any additional development. I'm guessing what would have been an announcement for a delay at the beginning of the year was instead turned into Kojima Pro's drama story, where they were forced to cut the unfinished pieces and slap together everything else. What seems to be missing or unfinished:
Mission 51
Battle Gear
Taboo content (children soldiers better used?)
Faction warfare
Mother Base and FOB customization
Ocelot
Ocelot get down - the enemy sniper
Lostconfused
Member
Yeah but that would defeat the point of "You were never big boss, ever, not even once."
Good template for the game.
[Plot point] went nowhere. [Character] might as well [something] because it didn't matter at all.
We could Mad Libs a more satisfying conclusion.
Konami happened. It's obvious they just wanted this thing done and out the door, they didn't want to give Kojima and his team any more time or funds. I'll always look at MGSV as a "what could have been" instead of "what was" and seems it's the last in the series that really sucks.
One of the tracks in the official Soundtrack is called "Angering Mantis"
Track 18: https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/metal-gear-solid-v-original/id1030637812
I just finished it. Maybe the bait and switch will make more sense if I take the time to listen to all the tapes, but why the hell does Venom Snake have the same voice as Big Boss, even in Ground Zeroes?
How much better would it have been if you only heard the real Boss' voice at the very end of the game, and it was fucking David Hayter?
Even if you're glad he's not in the game because he sucks or whatever, it would only be a few lines and the whole thing would make soooo much more sense.
I guess Ground Zeroes could not have existed for that to happen but ehhhh.... nobody would have missed that overpriced, 90 minutes prologue.
Edit: well... thinking about it, Kaz would have realized he wasn't the real BB if his voice was different, so I suppose the twist has to make no sense whatsoever in order for the rest of the story to kinda hold together?
What a dumb thing...
How much better would it have been if you only heard the real Boss' voice at the very end of the game, and it was fucking David Hayter?
Even if you're glad he's not in the game because he sucks or whatever, it would only be a few lines and the whole thing would make soooo much more sense.
I guess Ground Zeroes could not have existed for that to happen but ehhhh.... nobody would have missed that overpriced, 90 minutes prologue.
Edit: well... thinking about it, Kaz would have realized he wasn't the real BB if his voice was different, so I suppose the twist has to make no sense whatsoever in order for the rest of the story to kinda hold together?
What a dumb thing...
GodzillaDB
Member
01) Yes, both Punished "Venom" Snake and Big Boss were in a nine-year coma simultaneously. The latter was stuck within a legitimate state of unconsciousness whereas the Medic/Venom Snake was placed under an artificial one by orders of Major Zero/Cipher to create the doppelganger ploy. He wasn't allowed to awaken until the real Big Boss surfaced back into the world.
02) There appears to be an almost unanimous praise for the "Truth Tapes," especially Major Zero's voice actor whose sole appearance is exclusive to the cassettes. However, some scenarios found in them feel more like a "literary device" meant to provide the listeners with a seemingly significant encounter that logically wouldn't have been recorded in such a convenient manner. There aren't many notable revelations to the best of my knowledge. They explore the downfall of Zero/Cipher through his relationship with Paz and Skull Face along with his flitting effort to assist Big Boss in his "final" moments prior to succumbing to his parasitic infection. Anyway, it's possibly the last piece of Metal Gear mythos we'll ever receive so enjoy them!
03) It isn't implied. Huey Emmerich and Dr. Strangelove shared a relationship that lead to the birth of Hal/"Otacon" while developing the Sahelanthropus project for Skull Face. Stangelove eventually realized that Huey had planned to utilize their own child as an experimental pilot for the bipedal mech and she retaliated by placed Hal into protective custody in the United States. Sometime afterward, Strangelove accidentally locks herself inside the Mammal Pod and Huey willingly allows her to suffocate in an effort to remove her as an obstacle in how he ran the Metal Gear enterprise. His implications that Skull Face killer her and, later, Strangelove intentionally committed suicide were plain lies to hide his guilt. The truth of this matter is pretty much revealed in her confession tape following Huey's exile from Mother Base.
04) Sadly, it's a plot point that goes unresolved in the final product much like Eli/Liquid Snake possessing a vial of the English vocal cord parasites. The collector's disc for Phantom Pain reveals that there was supposed to be another chapter to bookend the entire narrative, "Episode 51: Kingdom of the Flies." It would've explored Venom Snake hunting down Eli, Sahelanthropus, and the extracted child soldiers on an isolated island off the coast of Africa. A final showdown ensues, reminiscent of battling Paz and Metal Gear ZEKE from Peace Walker. Ultimately, Snake and Diamond Dogs would manage to put down the latest Metal Gear before discovering that Eli had infected himself with parasites in an attempt to kill off any adults that he would meet following his escape. The mercenaries decide to leave him behind as a result, air-lifting what remains of ST-84 Metal Gear out of his grasp. Venom orders an attack on the island to ensure that any potential remnants of the parasites are burnt off the face of the earth. Before that could take place, Psycho Mantis appears before Eli to use his psychogenic powers to remove the organisms out of the child and they move themselves to safety. Yup!
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