Support NeoGAF

[ShockingAlberto]

The whole thing's a hallucination. The hospital room doesn't even exist. If you look at the geometry of the building from outside, you can see that every time Venom went through the door into Paz's room, he would have been walking out onto that balcony thing where he ends up after the last photo reveal. Basically, he was wigging out in the open air, in full view of every soldier on the Medical Platform, and nobody mentioned it

There is a conversation you can overhear where they talk about how Big Boss has been going to the under construction area a lot.

 

[Neiteio]

One thing they should have done is, after the twist was revealed, they should have made it so all the Paz tapes just played two minutes of static.

I dig your idea from a storytelling standpoint -- "It was all in his head" -- but man, I'd be sad if I couldn't listen to those tapes anymore.

Although I suppose I'd always have YouTube.

This line of thought is i think where a lot of people like me have trouble following. Certainly an interpretation and if the legend of "SoldierX - Could be you or anyone!" is more interesting and such to you than "The story of Big Boss" i can see why you would enjoy the game a lot.

But - "an indomitable will" can certainly make a boy a man, a man a soldier and a soldier a legend.

But it shouldn't make you into a perfect stand in for Big Boss. The pinnacle. The peak. It simply shouldn't. When it does? when all you need is some training and some gumption? it means - as you say - literally anybody could become Big Boss. And if that were true.. cloning the man would be completely useless/pointless and making weird nanotech/parasite/mechanical soldiers to try and slow these Legends down would also be pointless.

Any special forces unit on the planet would simply brainwash their elite teams to feel no fear, be insanely confident in themselves and believe in the mission above all else.

In this world that MGSV has made... there should be Big Boss caliber soldiers EVERYWHERE. Every country. Every army. Ocelot should barely give two fucks about BB or Snake or Venom or whoever. Such a soldier is easy to make and point like a gun. Or a bullet.

Cheap.

I respect your opinion, but I'm just taking a slightly different approach here. The story may be saying "anyone" can do what BB does, but the reality is that it takes such incredible resolve to reach those levels of greatness that only an elite few will ever do it. Most settle for less and won't push themselves that far. And it just so happens the elite few are the player characters: Solid Snake, Raiden, Venom, and any DD member of the player's choosing (a bit of role-playing there).

In this sense, I don't think it diminishes BB or his legend. If anything, it's more impressive to look at him (and them) and say they did it through more than talent and training. It gives them a level of agency in their accomplishments that makes them more impressive as heroes.

EDIT: And to be clear, I don't think the brainwashing/therapy/etc completely supplants their personality. Which is why I don't think it's a simple matter of creating artificial soldiers.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I dig your idea from a storytelling standpoint -- "It was all in his head" -- but man, I'd be said if I couldn't listen to those tapes anymore.

Although I suppose I'd always have YouTube.

You say that but I haven't picked up the game since finishing it because they took my favorite buddy away.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

well my Razor Hedgehog has better Combat stats than even Venom Snake so they must not all be that special =p Razor Hedgehog S++ Combat for Big Boss!

 

[Moon_frogger]

Skullface being a part of Snake Eater is just plain stupid. For one, we saw how hard it was both times to insert just one man into Russia but now we're told Skullface, and presumably his team, managed to get in no problem? Second, only the Virtuous Mission would have needed a "cleanup" crew. That mission required the utmost secrecy and required that no evidence of an American presence be left behind. Which I think that Snake, a goddamn spy, was capable of doing on his own. Operation Snake Eater on the other hand required no such secrecy, in fact, we are actively encouraged to make our presence known to an extent to the Khrushev government. Again, the whole point of Snake Eater was to prove America's innocence by killing The Boss.

. there's still the public angle though. remember all this stuff was covert and not public knowledge. a cleanup crew could still be useful. or really, they could have been doing anything. It's left vague on purpose. and it suits the idea that skullface has a big boss obsession for a reason. Just like ocelot, quiet and others he was in love with the legend. I think it's probably only offensive if you think about to much and try to fill in the gaps.

 

[TheSeks]

Putting Miller and Ocelot in really cheapens that reveal.

It's one thing to give it a twist, it's another to show evidence there's no twist and then put the twist in.

I like the sidequest overall, but that one part kind of sucks.

What, no it doesn't. If anything it explains why the fuck people are pissed about feeling like Kojima retconed UNTIL the twist where "no, she's really dead. You're hallucinating because you failed to save her."

Which is really the whole point of it and why it's well done. That's why we see Venom shove his hand up her hoo-hah. Ground Zeroes she says there's another bomb "in my..." and then jumps off. Venom feels guilty about not being able to find that rummaging around inside near her stomach.

 

[Exploding8]

I have no problem believing a medic could be an amazing soldier. There are medics on SEAL teams, Tier1 teams, SAS ect. ect. ... I would hazard a guess and say that many of the most elite soldiers/teams on the planet all HAVE to have some introductory level of first aid/medicine before they are allowed on the team. He could easily have been in med school before joining whatever local para military group that BB yanked him from with a balloon and taught the dude CQC just like all his other soldiers and so on and so forth...

That's realistic enough. That's viable. That is not what people are having trouble swallowing.

What is bullshit - and makes no sense given what we know of BB and even Snake/Liquid/Solidus (given they are genetic clones) is that this rank and file everyday soldier who you at one point knocked the fuck out and hitched a balloon to his pants, could adequately fill the role of Big fucking Boss. The Legendary/Heroic once in multiple life times kind of soldier. He has done AMAZING things, pushed his mind and body beyond what normal men and women could ever dream. There is a reason behind soldiers who have never met the man, are actively working for the other side and don't even speak his language adore the man and fall into his employ without much convincing.

It's because BB is supposed to be the iconic ideal and zenith of what a soldier is capable of. He is legendary. He's Big. Fucking. Boss.

But apparently... so am I and so are you. And so is that jerkass from my high school who never brushed his teeth. And so is this completely un-important and completely unknown soldier.

It's fucking lazy and stupid.

But yes - medics go on missions. You've got that point going for you.

edit:


Pump. Those. Brakes.

The idea that the legend of Big Boss far surpasses the actual man behind the legend is a central plot point of the entire game that you seem to be missing. All those soldiers (and you) drank the kool aid that made Big Boss out to be super-human in some way, when in "reality" he's just a man with very good / special training (which he got from the boss, and which he taught you -- his best soldier -- as well as the rest of his soldiers) and the right mind-set to lead and excel on the battlefield (which has been hypno-parasite-machined-idevengaf into you)

 

[ShockingAlberto]

What, no it doesn't. If anything it explains why the fuck people are pissed about feeling like Kojima retconed UNTIL the twist where "no, she's really dead. You're hallucinating because you failed to save her."

Which is really the whole point of it and why it's well done. That's why we see Venom shove his hand up her hoo-hah. Ground Zeroes she says there's another bomb "in my..." and then jumps off. Venom feels guilty about not being able to find that rummaging around inside near her stomach.

I don't understand what you're arguing.

I think having a hallucination twist works better when you don't have existing characters showing up to throw you off its trail.

 

[A-V-B]

In this photo, Skull Face's jet lag gets the better of him.

Intelligence reports suggest the foreign agent, EVA, removed mushrooms from her diet in the years after.

 

[Arttemis]

I thought of it as a necessary deception. It just shows how entrenched snake is in the fantasy and it's not too far fetched really. People have made themselves believe crazier things.

I agree with this completely. Mental breaks don't occur in such a fashion that the individual hallucinating recognizes the peculiarities. The brain provides everything one needs to be completely convinced.

This shit should have been throughout the whole game.

Edit - The whole room is a hallucination. Venom's mind created everything it needed to convince himself of something he desperately wanted to hear. That's not uncommon at all.

Also, the end of the second to last Paz tape is Venom starting to realize his delusions. Pretty great micro story.

 

[Opto]

Jokes aside I don't think Skull Face was there during Operation Snake Eater, but acted to cover all their tracks so it never leaked and obviously went in after everything happened.

 

[JayEH]

I don't understand what you're arguing.

I think having a hallucination twist works better when you don't have existing characters showing up to throw you off its trail.

Well that's the point though right? You shouldn't know if a hallucination is real or not. You think it's real because In your mind it feels real.

 

[Neiteio]

That's literally one of the points of MGS2. The S3 program creates super soldiers out of specific conditioning.

MGS1 is about genetics being irrelevant to performance, and MGS2 is about mentality being all you need to reach that performance. Venom fits right into these themes.

Edit - Furthermore, the story of Big Boss as the greatest soldier is just that, a story. MGS4 had a line in act 3 by Eva that mentions how Big Boss's legend grew and was stretched beyond reality. MGSV is an example of how the legend was a farse. Big Boss is just a great soldier who defeated another great soldier, and got caught up in a ridiculous ideology feud with his commanding officer, and they ended up controlling the world for the next 60 years.

Very well-said.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Well that's the point though right? You shouldn't know if a hallucination is real or not. You think it's real because In your mind it feels real.

I think it could have been accomplished some other way. The way they did it didn't work for me.

 

[TheSeks]

I think have a hallucination twist works better when you don't have existing characters showing up to throw you off its trail.

I'm arguing that "twist"/Ocelot and Miller makes it not a hallucination until you get that twist.

Unless you spoil yourself ahead of time, people are like "what? How the fuck did she survive throwing herself out a helicopter into the ocean." That playback scene where the Medic rummages around her second opening makes it look like they got the bomb out but she still jumped in a panic anyway. That's where the Paz coming back to life hallucination comes into play: If Venom saved her and got the second bomb out, would things with the XOF been different? Probably not and she'd still be dead, but he feels extremely guilty about it to where he replays that moment and wishes he could've saved her even if he was only delaying the inevitable.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I'm arguing that "twist"/Ocelot and Miller makes it not a hallucination until you get that twist.

Unless you spoil yourself ahead of time, people are like "what? How the fuck did she survive throwing herself out a helicopter into the ocean." That playback scene where the Medic rummages around her second opening makes it look like they got the bomb out but she still jumped in a panic anyway. That's where the Paz coming back to life hallucination comes into play: If Venom saved her and got the second bomb out, would things with the XOF been different? Probably not and she'd still be dead, but he feels extremely guilty about it to where he replays that moment and wishes he could've saved her even if he was only delaying the inevitable.

Again, what are you talking about? I understand the twist fine. I know Paz isn't alive, I know it's a hallucination to deal with his guilt over not saving her. I don't like, in retrospect, the narrators of Miller and Ocelot coming in at the beginning.

Are you freaking out because I should like it?

 

[Berserker976]

That's literally one of the points of MGS2. The S3 program creates super soldiers out of specific conditioning.

MGS1 is about genetics being irrelevant to performance, and MGS2 is about mentality being all you need to reach that performance. Venom fits right into these themes.

Edit - Furthermore, the story of Big Boss as the greatest soldier is just that, a story. MGS4 had a line in act 3 by Eva that mentions how Big Boss's legend grew and was stretched beyond reality. MGSV is an example of how the legend was a farse. Big Boss is just a great soldier who defeated another great soldier, and got caught up in a ridiculous ideology feud with his commanding officer, and they ended up controlling the world for the next 60 years.

Wow, I disagree with all of this very strongly.

First off, if the message you got from MGS1 was that genetics are literally irrelevant, I think you need to go back and play that game again.

Second, the S3 program in MGS2 wasn't designed to recreate Solid Snake through VR training, the S3 program was designed by the Patriots to test the ability of the AI to manipulate information and fabricate world events, to create context.

And finally, this idea that Big Boss' legend was a lie and MGSV supports and shows that is absurd. The entire reason you're able to recruit people in MGSV is because Big Boss is already a legend. Ocelot says that every soldier in the world knows Big Boss and worships him. Venom doesn't create any part of Big Boss' legend, he just perpetuates and profits from it.

 

[Neiteio]

You say that but I haven't picked up the game since finishing it because they took my favorite buddy away.

Oh yeah, that's bullshit. I heard about this in advance so I'm maintaining two saves in order to have access to Quiet. I get Kojima is trying to evoke "phantom pain" for the player by taking away a unique set of gameplay mechanics in Quiet, but that's going too far, IMO. They should really have a way to bring her back, even if it's non-canon. Like the game would say you're hallucinating a "ghost of the past" when you see her in her cell and the chopper and bring her on missions, lol. Just find a way to let us still access the gameplay. It's a painful design decision in a game where (best as I can tell) it's not easy to start a new file.

 

[SandMan2233]

In this photo, Skull Face's jet lag gets the better of him.

Intelligence reports suggest the foreign agent, EVA, removed mushrooms from her diet in the years after.

You are a true hero for these photos. salute.gif

 

[Reebot]

In this photo, Skull Face's jet lag gets the better of him.

Intelligence reports suggest the foreign agent, EVA, removed mushrooms from her diet in the years after.

These are amazing.

They said that during the tapes but then they talk about how "he's in no condition for plastic surgery" in mission 46.

Oh good point. Either its a blatant plot hole or the doctor didn't know it wasn't the real Big Boss... which is also kind of a blatant plot hole.

 

[Neiteio]

First off, if the message you got from MGS1 was that genetics are literally irrelevant, I think you need to go back and play that game again.

Second, the S3 program in MGS2 wasn't designed to recreate Solid Snake through VR training, the S3 program was designed by the Patriots to test the ability of the AI to manipulate information and fabricate world events, to create context.

And finally, this idea that Big Boss' legend was a lie and MGSV supports and shows that is absurd. The entire reason you're able to recruit people in MGSV is because Big Boss is already a legend. Ocelot says that every soldier in the world knows Big Boss and worships him. Venom doesn't create any part of Big Boss' legend, he just perpetuates and profits from it.

He's referring to Raiden's programming component. We know what he means. And no one's questioning BB did what he did, but Eva and others note the legend took on a life all its own. Things get exaggerated along the way, to the point where he becomes this messiah-like figure of the black ops world.

 

[immortal-joe]

The truth tapes explain how the medic was forged into a phantom of Big Boss.

- BB refers to him as "one of their best", which explains that he had the "potential"

- Ocelot explains that the coma / shrapnel situation gave them an opening to basically reconfigure his memories, experiences and capabilities to match those of the original BB. It's "metal gear" science basically.

There isn't anymore interpretation to be had. If you're not ok with the above, that's that.

 

[Reebot]

He's referring to Raiden's programming component. We know what he means. And no one's questioning BB did what he did, but Eva and others note the legend took on a life all its own. Things get exaggerated along the way, to the point where he becomes this messiah-like figure of the black ops world.

Problem here is that he really is a black ops messiah in MGS's canon.

MGS V doesn't show that his legend was a lie, it just shows that some other dude wearing his skin did part of it. And maybe that Skull Face gave him a starting push. But since Venom's part is never talked about again, we come full circle: Big Boss really did do all those amazing things people say and really was the absolute baddest dude on the planet.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

yeah in a gameplay sense, the way the game ends is b.s.

for a free roam focus, no new game plus... having to delete your save file and lose access to your FOB/and all your PvP stats... losing such an important part of the gameplay (your sniping partner)...

i'm close to restarting because it sucks that now such a big part of the gameplay is gone at a time when free roam 'variety' should be more important than ever.

and replaying individual missions is not the same as new game + because you still miss a lot of content (out of mission cutscenes, a lot of radio chatter, radio intros to missions, etc) and general progression (it'd probably keep your items and stats but not your MB).

 

[Neiteio]

RE: Kaz and Ocelot in the Paz hallucination:

What I liked about it was how quickly they show up. Something seems off about it, but my mind dismissed it as poor plotting. "Ah, they should've had a delay before they walked in," I thought. "It doesn't seem realistic that they would show so soon after Venom arrives."

So it's neat in hindsight to realize that Kaz and Ocelot were just a means for Venom's imagination to make sense of his fantasy. That's why their inexplicable appearance is so convenient. Because Venom needs them to be convenient.

 

[Berserker976]

He's referring to Raiden's programming component. We know what he means. And no one's questioning BB did what he did, but Eva and others note the legend took on a life all its own. Things get exaggerated along the way, to the point where he becomes this messiah-like figure of the black ops world.

I know that's what he's referring to, and his programming failed. That's my point. Raiden isn't Solid Snake. But somehow Venom is Big Boss.

 

[Neiteio]

Problem here is that he really is a black ops messiah in MGS's canon.

MGS V doesn't show that his legend was a lie, it just shows that some other dude wearing his skin did part of it. And maybe that Skull Face gave him a starting push. But since Venom's part is never talked about again, we come full circle: Big Boss really did do all those amazing things people say and really was the absolute baddest dude on the planet.

I actually think that's a fair assessment. Maybe the best way to characterize it is "the legend is not a lie, but there's more to it than people thought."

 

[matrix-cat]

One thing I've always loved thinking about is just exactly what Ocelot's post-hypnotic suggestion sessions look like. Is he swinging a pocket watch? Do his eyes go all crazy like Hypnotoad? Is there a sound-effect involved? (What am I talking about; this is Metal Gear, of course there's a sound-effect )

How do you guys visualise Ocelot implanting memories into a comatose dude over a nine year period? Did he whisper sweet nothings into his ear with those dulcet Troy Baker tones? Did he play footage from Operation Snake Eater on a projector and clamp Venom's eyes open like A Clockwork Orange?

 

[Arttemis]

Wow, I disagree with all of this very strongly.

First off, if the message you got from MGS1 was that genetics are literally irrelevant, I think you need to go back and play that game again.

Second, the S3 program in MGS2 wasn't designed to recreate Solid Snake through VR training, the S3 program was designed by the Patriots to test the ability of the AI to manipulate information and fabricate world events, to create context.

And finally, this idea that Big Boss' legend was a lie and MGSV supports and shows that is absurd. The entire reason you're able to recruit people in MGSV is because Big Boss is already a legend. Ocelot says that every soldier in the world knows Big Boss and worships him. Venom doesn't create any part of Big Boss' legend, he just perpetuates and profits from it.

The physically and mentally superior clone was defeated by the inferior twin.
The rookie in a specific situation can defy all odds and be potentially the world's greatest.

Regardless of all the exposition in the games, those are literally the events of MGS 1&2. Regardless of what the patriot AI says the S3 is, the entire game turns players into Snake.

Look beyond the babble of the exposition and see the events for what they are.

 

[bluethree]

One thing I've always loved thinking about is just exactly what Ocelot's post-hypnotic suggestion sessions look like. Is he swinging a pocket watch? Do his eyes go all crazy like Hypnotoad? Is there a sound-effect involved? (What am I talking about; this is Metal Gear, of course there's a sound-effect )

How do you guys visualise Ocelot implanting memories into a comatose dude over a nine year period? Did he whisper sweet nothings into his ear with those dulcet Troy Baker tones? Did he play footage from Operation Snake Eater on a projector and clamp Venom's eyes open like A Clockwork Orange?

i imagine it with a "2 + 2 = 5" popping up over his head like an exclamation mark

 

[Opto]

They put Miller and Ocelot in there with Paz because it would be too obvious if you just saw her with no explanation. And then she did nothing in her room the entire time.

If you want to go full hog hallucination, she should have been seen interacting with Mother Base members when you're hanging out there

 

[Sub_Level]

They put Miller and Ocelot in there with Paz because it would be too obvious if you just saw her with no explanation. And then she did nothing in her room the entire time.

If you want to go full hog hallucination, she should have been seen interacting with Mother Base members when you're hanging out there

You can play as a combat staff member and she still calls you Snake. Symbolism or oversight?

 

[Berserker976]

The physically and mentally superior clone was defeated by the inferior twin.
The rookie in a specific situation can defy all odds and be potentially the world's greatest.

Regardless of all the exposition in the games, those are literally the events of MGS 1&2. Regardless of what the patriot AI says the S3 is, the entire game turns players into Snake.

Look beyond the babble of the exposition and see the events for what they are.

So here's the thing about ignoring the "babble of exposition" as you call it. When you ignore that you miss some details, like the fact that Raiden is just about the furthest thing from a rookie there is. Raiden wasn't a rookie shaped into a legendary soldier through video games. He was a ruthless killer since childhood, sent into a simulation to play a role.

 

[Alienous]

So what's the point with Skull Face's involvement in Operation Snake Eater?

Like, Snake had a support team. He was flown in. He was Fulton'd out. He had to rely on at least half a dozen people, including characters like Granin.

Adding one more guy, who I can only assume cleaned up Big Boss' careless shits, doesn't dismantle the 'legend' of Big Boss; that title is still valid as it has always been - 'Hey, we made you kill the most important person in your life. You're Super her now, 'k?"

 

[Neiteio]

I know that's what he's referring to, and his programming failed. That's my point. Raiden isn't Solid Snake. But somehow Venom is Big Boss.

I think Arttemis addresses this well:

The physically and mentally superior clone was defeated by the inferior twin.
The rookie in a specific situation can defy all odds and be potentially the world's greatest.

Regardless of all the exposition in the games, those are literally the events of MGS 1&2. Regardless of what the patriot AI says the S3 is, the entire game turns players into Snake.

Look beyond the babble of the exposition and see the events for what they are.

 

[Neiteio]

So here's the thing about ignoring the "babble of exposition" as you call it. When you ignore that you miss some details, like the fact that Raiden is just about the furthest thing from a rookie there is. Raiden wasn't a rookie shaped into a legendary soldier through video games. He was a ruthless killer since childhood, sent into a simulation to play a role.

And he was fiercely determined since childhood. His fighting spirit is what matters here. Not his subsequent programming that he ultimately rejected. It helps, but at the end of the day the common thread between these heroes is that despite their varied backgrounds, they all have incredible force of will.

 

[KOMANI]

It would have been better if Skullface was sent from Zero to aid snake in snake eater, but his jealous overcame him and instead he chose to sabotage snake's mission.... Yet Snake was still able to succeed against all odds.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

In this photo, Skull Face's jet lag gets the better of him.

Intelligence reports suggest the foreign agent, EVA, removed mushrooms from her diet in the years after.

I SEE YOU'RE BROWSING THE SAME /V/ THREAD AS ME

 

[A-V-B]

In this daring snapshot, taken moments before Volgin spotted the first Field Photographer, Skull Face scouts ahead for Naked Snake.

In hindsight, it was fortuitous that Zero hired over half of the XOF field staff straight out of Blackwell Military Academy, known for producing professional photographers.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

such a lust for lust

 

[NYR94]

 

[Berserker976]

And he was fiercely determined since childhood. His fighting spirit is what matters here. Not his subsequent programming that he ultimately rejected. It helps, but at the end of the day the common thread between these heroes is that despite their varied backgrounds, they all have incredible force of will.

So anyone with a strong force of will might as well be Big Boss. God I hope that's not the true message of the series, because that is boring as hell.

For the record I think you're way off base here. If force of will really mattered so much why didn't Liquid take over everything? He was the most willful mother fucker on the planet.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

So anyone with a strong force of will might as well be Big Boss. God I hope that's not the true message of the series, because that is boring as hell.

For the record I think you're way off base here. If force of will really mattered so much why didn't Liquid take over everything? He was the most willful mother fucker on the planet.

Same reason Solid Snake beat Big Boss, Solidus, and Liquid Snake despite having the inferior genes. A matter of willpower.

One thing I like about TPP is that it hammers in that the Legend of Big Boss is just that-a legend.

 

[Neiteio]

So anyone with a strong force of will might as well be Big Boss. God I hope that's not the true message of the series, because that is boring as hell.

For the record I think you're way off base here. If force of will really mattered so much why didn't Liquid take over everything? He was the most willful mother fucker on the planet.

I think it's more boring to say Liquid failed because his genes, training or talent was somehow lesser. That robs him of agency.

He lost because he was also petty and back-asswards in his beliefs. Will is not simply what you want. Will is how you apply yourself.

 

[Berserker976]

Same reason Solid Snake beat Big Boss, Solidus, and Liquid Snake despite having the inferior genes. A matter of willpower.

One thing I like about TPP is that it hammers in that the Legend of Big Boss is just that-a legend.

Ok, this line of reasoning has officially become silly. "The guy who wants it more always wins" is not an ok justification for every event that happens in the Metal Gear universe.

 

[KOMANI]

Liquid died because of Foxdie. The guy did survive a crash, a fall, an explosion, and a fight before that.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I am dying at all these Skullface shops

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Ok, this line of reasoning has officially become silly. "The guy who wants it more always wins" is not an ok justification for every event that happens in the Metal Gear universe.

it's incredibly cliched in Shonen manga. The underdog always prevail even though he's proven to be weaker. In this case the byline that proves snake is an underdog is Ocelot stating to Solidus that he has the inferior genes. And it works inverse with Liquid-Liquid BELIEVES he has weaker genes despite having the stronger ones(As shown by his 'terminator-esque' rampage at the end of MGS1, only to be stopped by FOXDIE.). The twist of 'oh the president orchestrated and is a clone' is only part of the twist, the other part is that Solid was inferior.

It's so damn silly but that's what the story is built upon. Solid Snake simply has willpower to come out on top. He was never plagued like Liquid-who thought he was inferior since his young age-that made him win.

 

[Alienous]

Liquid died because of Foxdie. The guy did survive a crash, a fall, an explosion, and a fight before that.

I've never given that much thought.

So much for the genetically inferior clone winning. He was 5 seconds from getting his head FAMAS'd.

 

[MMarston]

I need more of these shops in my life