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Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
How so?
The Game Awards jury lists only 2 women out of 32 jurors (sites selected jurors)
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
Gotdatmoney
Member
I'm not the one who made the claim. I stay away from making arguments I dont have facts or sources on. Perhaps you should do the same if you dont want to get called out?
Keihart
Member
Sure let's treat individuals as groups and statistics, that would be great for "equality"
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Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
?????
groups and statistics are based on individuals, they're not magic data showing out of nowhere.
Are you running away from your own argument,, now?
Gotdatmoney
Member
This is probably the most awe inspiring statement I have read on this entire thread.
I think the problem with the jury isn't there, the publications/sites sent who they chose as the best to be on that jury, that's no problem with me.
The problem lies within the industry below that, why was it nothing but white men that were sent? Because it's mostly white men in the industry. Personally I think we're looking at the wrong issue here, I believe the jury is probably made up of the best people to judge from the available pool.
Want more representation? We need to go back to discussing why there are fewer women in the industry and solving that problem.
The problem lies within the industry below that, why was it nothing but white men that were sent? Because it's mostly white men in the industry. Personally I think we're looking at the wrong issue here, I believe the jury is probably made up of the best people to judge from the available pool.
Want more representation? We need to go back to discussing why there are fewer women in the industry and solving that problem.
silvermember
Banned
Huh?
I find these types of comments hilarious. It shows up so much in this thread that one could say it is pretty much a given that everyone there are the only people qualified to judge a *chuckles* heavily sponsored videogame awards show of all things.
We should really do an analysis to see if they are all really "experts" with backgrounds in narrative, design, programming, music, etc. and all that stuff required to properly judge a fucking videogame show, and if there are truly no women who can match or exceed said backgrounds of all these super talented white males.
Or maybe they are all just white males because they are part of an industry and a system that has been pretty averse to hiring and has systematically excluded women. A topic by the way that most of the publications involved in this circus have been banging their drums about how much of a problem it is.
Yea, I'm sure they are all the only "experts" capable of such monumental tasks like saying which game is better, Call of Duty 15 or Fallout 6 (a topic that requires so many precise qualifications that only the best of the best in the world are ever vetted to do it) and this isn't an indication of any blindspots whatsoever with their fucking sites. No siree.
Keihart
Member
If you treat the selection of individuals based on the group you want to put them in (gender, etnicity, etc) you are making a lot of asumptions that are part of the mayority but not every member, thus negating the diferences of the individuals.
If you are a men, do you know a woman with the same game taste that you?
If you are a woman, do you know a men with the same game taste that you?
A panel about game taste should be about game taste
Edit: anyway, game awards other than gaf i don't really care, and thankfully you don't have to check you gender, age and etnicity here to vote.
If you are a men, do you know a woman with the same game taste that you?
If you are a woman, do you know a men with the same game taste that you?
A panel about game taste should be about game taste
Edit: anyway, game awards other than gaf i don't really care, and thankfully you don't have to check you gender, age and etnicity here to vote.
Same boat as you, we are no solving anything or getting nowhere if we try to fix the reflection on the mirror.
Gotdatmoney
Member
If several of the gaf members bitching about quotas, forced diversity and qualifications had their way, America for example would have even less black managenent than it already does and we would still have segregation in school and local business. Think about that for a minute.
Where exactly did your beloved meritocracy get you before the government had to inject itself into the picture?
Where exactly did your beloved meritocracy get you before the government had to inject itself into the picture?
We already know that there's a difference between women and men as far gaming taste goes.
It is reflected in the buying and usage habits.
By not selecting women you basically make sure their tastes are not represented in the panel.
In short :
YOU made the claim that there's no difference in taste between men and women,
back that up instead of arguing your way into a corner.
That's because EVERY single member can vote, we don't arbitrarily limit ourselves to a panel of 30 representatives.
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Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Butbutbut that would be a meritocracy, right?
Keihart
Member
I agree that there's difference if you take it as a group, but that doesn't mean that each member of that group has the same tastes, thus making it irrelevant in my opinion. If there were woman games and men games, then it would make sense, just like there are partys in politics, because those partys share opinions and thus represent those (ideally)
The acrobatic level of confirmation bias you must have come to to decide diversity somehow disservices women.
Nobody is claiming that women should be 'included just because', but rather because their opinions are as important as anyone else's.
And the fact that so many publications have looked at their pool of available employees and so often picked a male employee is indicative of either a lack of diversity in that particular workplace or a perception that their male employee's opinions are more important than those of their female staff. If you flip thirty two coins and it only lands on heads twice then there is something wrong that needs to be addressed.
Every major artistic panel tries to keep a roughly equal gender divide in the group of experts it employs. These are panels much more prestigious than the Game Awards who see the necessity for gender diversity and have had no public scrutiny because of it. If videogames want to be acknowledged for the serious artistic medium they have every right to be, they need to grow up and act like these institutions are theire peers.
Gotdatmoney
Member
It's really hard to not get myself ban in this thread considering the level of flatout ridiculous opinions being thrown around. Some of which are historically and statsitically proven to be sexist garbage.
Sumio Mondo
Member
I just don't think this is the games awards ceremony that will change things, there should be one for regular fans of gaming as a hobby and split it 50/50 rather than this one aimed at the critics who always vote for the same shit every year that no one cares about. Working in the tech sector, I was/still am surprised by how many women there is in the technology sector nowadays but it's a good thing (my boss is female as are a lot of senior management), since I hate the whole alpha male mentality/boys club exclusive too, just wish that also was the same for the games industry but it's definitely a gradual thing as more females are gaming now, these things take time, but as long as people stay positive it can only get better. Unfortunately the gaming press is very much a boy's club thing at the moment, but again, change is a gradual thing. As long as people remain positive and encourage women to take a part (and take initiative), we are on the right track.
There doesn't need to be men and women games per se.
Men and women have different interest in the games they play, again this has been reflected in the statistic we have.
You cannot have a representative panel if you only have it based on only 1 demographic.
There's a reason in statistic you don't need 50 000 people to have a poll with meaningful result for example.
Gotdatmoney
Member
If 90% of women want Tomb Raider as their game of the year and 10% want Fallout 4 where as 90% of men want Faĺlout 4 and 10% want Tomb Raider, how does 31 males to 1 female represent those opinions accurately?
Wow, the "qualification" issue.
It is pretty much a lock to come up EVERY time, at every field wherever something like this is brought up.
Folks, it is the just world fallacy. You assume that everyone already in there already used proper means to get there. Problem is: it is not a just world. There have been countless studies and examples where white male circles tend to dominate otherwise large, relatively diverse groups because of social circles being formed and they themselves favoring each other over quality.
Just stop with this.
Also: game awards and qualifications? Do not hold delusions, please. They all wuw the new Call of Duty (some 7/10 love it, others 9/10 love it, others wish they could play it RIGHT NOW), they enjoy wandering around in Fallout 4, they just love the new Tomb Raider, embrace FIFA 16, and they all have a favorite of indie game out of a selection of 8-10 indie games this year. Oh, and do not get me started on Witcher 3.
They are all soooo qualified. You are bound to get the true gems come out of this year's awards as winners as well. Damn those wymin trying to steal the qualified positions with their boobs!
Quick edit: And uhm... the cherry on top? "50-50 would be unjust, SO 95-5 is where at is. Its all good".
Yes, its all good.
It is pretty much a lock to come up EVERY time, at every field wherever something like this is brought up.
Folks, it is the just world fallacy. You assume that everyone already in there already used proper means to get there. Problem is: it is not a just world. There have been countless studies and examples where white male circles tend to dominate otherwise large, relatively diverse groups because of social circles being formed and they themselves favoring each other over quality.
Just stop with this.
Also: game awards and qualifications? Do not hold delusions, please. They all wuw the new Call of Duty (some 7/10 love it, others 9/10 love it, others wish they could play it RIGHT NOW), they enjoy wandering around in Fallout 4, they just love the new Tomb Raider, embrace FIFA 16, and they all have a favorite of indie game out of a selection of 8-10 indie games this year. Oh, and do not get me started on Witcher 3.
They are all soooo qualified. You are bound to get the true gems come out of this year's awards as winners as well. Damn those wymin trying to steal the qualified positions with their boobs!
Quick edit: And uhm... the cherry on top? "50-50 would be unjust, SO 95-5 is where at is. Its all good".
Yes, its all good.
Why would you mix what people like with their gender?
How does being one gender or the other make your opinion different related to videogames?
How are you a better critic being one gender or the other?
Why the fuck do we keep putting gender fight in videogames WHY.
Also, im calling out the stupid journalist who goes out of jury because gender equality. Imagine if olimpic games were called off because there are not enough white swimmers (???).
Everything is so silly and people love sooo much the drama its disgusting.
Every group does that as a tendency trying to gain control, this is basic human behavior, not white male circles behavior.
Seriously people, where do you come from.
Edit:
Before someone comes with "diversity" argument. Im ALL in for diversity but it has to be a implicit diversity where everyone gets to be in the pool and the best ones get picked aside from their gender.
Diversity is no good when it's forced on top of other more important attributes like actually being good at what's requested.
Yes, I understand that. That does not make it right. Diversity and aiming for less personal preferences to dominate these things is a goal worth striving for. If we were living in a society where blacks and females would dominate over minority whites and would ignore the opinions of males even though at least half of them play games as well, we would be having the same conversation about black females dominating.
The reality however, is different. So we can equalize it. I know it is human nature, but luckily, other human nature includes compassion and empathy too. That can be human nature as well. Do not be ashamed to be a white male (I am that too
), but do not justify bad behavior by "others would do that too". Yeah, they would. But this time, they were not the most succesful at it. So we face this particular problem.Again: just world fallacy. Yeah, they are all oh-so-qualified. And they wuw Fallout 4 (or insert other random aaa game). Just wuw it.
Doctor Ironic
Member
People complaining about "quotas" here are pretty weird.
Haven't we kinda proven multiple times now that more women are playing games than men? Is it strange to ask that a panel of people judging excellence in games be representative of that audience?
One women out of 32 panelists is even worse than the already-bad games industry staff split. People acting like "oh well there just not be many qualified women" seem to be ignoring that.
Haven't we kinda proven multiple times now that more women are playing games than men? Is it strange to ask that a panel of people judging excellence in games be representative of that audience?
One women out of 32 panelists is even worse than the already-bad games industry staff split. People acting like "oh well there just not be many qualified women" seem to be ignoring that.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Hahahaha
Apparently he did, according to some here, because qualifications are super-duper important to this, and how dare the panel have judges that might not quite have all the merits!
Fucking lol. As if you needed particular skills to play video games and vote on them. NeoGAF's "top X of the generation/year" threads prove very well this isn't the case.
Sure, its better to think the answer is forced equality and support it by being sarcastic about people's qualifications.
Why do I even.
Oh I'm not arguing of the actual quality of the "experts" (I'm sure they're shit). But it doesn't necessarily make the intent of the organizers evil.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Because on this very page data has been posted that flatout says that is the case :/
Because on this very page data has been proven that flatout says that is the case :/
Not better, different. A panel wants different perspectives otherwise what is the point :/
Because women make up 45% of the people that play games and get like 5% recognition in the industry?
Because its bettee for everyone if more women also are involved in gaming?
Because women have actively expressed that they want to be included in video games.
The olympics are a competition. If you are the best you will be there. Anybody can try and get there, that's why no one is bitching.
For some people this "drama" is their real life. When you get called nigga while eating ice cream minding your own business maybe you'll understand why people perhaps care about issues of discrimination.
Its not a white male trait but this particular topic is a male problem :/
partyphone
Banned
the reason all these dudes were selected is because they were dudes. it would be easy to find 16 qualified women. but they didn't because that's what happens in a sexist culture when no one cares to try.
I like how all defense for forced equality is based on a infographic that doesn't contain a single number but percentages.
I'm outta here!
Good God.
I'm outta here!
Good God.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Ridiculous statements like this definitely don't help anyone
Good thing no one is arguing the intent of the organizers is evil then. We are arguing about the sites sending these people and their skewed representation, and how it is a problem.
partyphone
Banned
how is it ridiculous?
You are so outta here, you keep responding. "Oh god, the drame, let me freak out over something all of you do, that will show you all!"
Anyway, if you do not think that this whole situation is not VASTLY embarassing for the awards as a whole, good for you. If you think a 95-5 split is completely fair, and there is no point in trying to pursue a 70-30 or a 80-20 because undoubtedly, that would lead to some unqualified females dirtying the pool: good for you.
And plenty of women already exist who are good at game critique. Asking for a tiny bit more representation isn't the end of the world. Why do you act like it is? Honestly ask yourself that question.
I like how you came in, did not understand how there are issues of discrimination here (largely because you are not a part of the demographic that has to constantly deal with these issues),decided to not educate yourself on these issues, spewed some 'questions' that amount to defending the Boy's Club mentality of gaming and then left when you were shown otherwise. Thanks. As someone tired of dealing with this, I appreciate your openness to the topic.
Gotdatmoney
Member
You think percentages are based off letters? Its all based off numbers. There are several links in this thread to more data. If this is your best shot at discrediting then you may as well leave. You are acting all outraged like you claim to hate except without data or a well formatted opinion. You're definitely winning us over with reason bro.
Also dudes statement may come a little strong but how exactly do we consistently arrive at male dominated everything in gaming?
Wouldn't the fairness of the split be based on what % of gaming journalists are female?
If it's 6% then 2 out of 32 is perfectly reasonable. I don't know what the actual percentage is, but shouldn't that be known before everyone freaks out about it?
It wouldn't be the award show's fault that women are under represented in games journalism. It would be like when everyone was mad at tech companies for not hiring enough minorities and women, when the real issue is that those candidates don't exist because of lack of access to higher education, stigma of women in STEM, etc.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Seriously, you'd think when a country with as an economy as germany can mandate a 30% female quota in senior management positions of corporations of a certain size and up that mandating a modicum of equality in a videogame award show wouldn't be such a big deal.
And gender roles certainly don't exist either and I'm sure most of the men in this thread played with baby puppets when they were little boys.
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Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Woah, calm down, that was just a stupid joke. I know this "meritocracy" reasoning is bullshit from privileged people who can't admit to themselves that they have an advantage because of systemic discrimination.
Oh, yeah, the widespread discrimination against white people.
Way to entirely miss the point.
what do you think percentages represent?
you could always just google the source but somehow I don't think that would make a difference
Gotdatmoney
Member
Oh misunderstanding fam, I know where you stand
I was more venting my frustration to you because I know you get it Sorry for the misunderstanding!!!
Gotdatmoney
Member
Because the ratio of the male/female judges matches the ratio of the pool of available people at the respective organizations being asked to provide jurors.
I don't know why people are so hell bent on saying this is the fault of TGA. The issue goes back farther to why males are hired more often than women at these companies. And it could even go farther back than that. It's entirely possible that these companies just don't have enough qualified women applying for the job.
Forcing quotas in a top-down approach won't solve this issue. All that does is give the appearance of diversity.
Messofanego
Banned
If you actually knew what you were arguing about, you'd know the lack of males in nursing is a problem that is trying to be addressed just like it is here with female critics. Male nurses get pay incentives so they can be willing to join the profession.
Aside from the false equivalence, the jury is representing gamers. And roughly 50% of gamers are female.