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[gamechanger87]

I don't know since nobody has said it to me about the Anime I watched. I can tell you what it wouldn't be though. It wouldn't be to try and defend the medium and say it's just due to cultural differences or Japan having lower age of consent laws.

The fact that publishers used free speech grounds to push for an exclusion is terrible. The exclusion of anime/manga/video games from this restriction is absurd.

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ201406180087

I stopped bothering a long time ago, these people simply arent interested in knowing anime encompasses much, much more than that not so popular weird ecchi shit they once side eyed while googling other random shit.

This goes both ways. Of course there is other anime out there that is much more serious and doesn't stoop to the Moe and fan service stuff. Unfortunately, fans prefer to say that there is other stuff out there and ignore the fact that the mainstream audience out there has seen the weird stuff and that is their perception of the industry.

Naming anime that doesn't do this ignores the reality that there is a lot out there that is overtly sexualized and fanservicey.

 

[Sai-kun]

Is that your argument? How much anime have you watched? Why should I take anything you say seriously?

Is this like one of those weird litmus tests that nerds give to girls who play games

 

[mdubs]

I like it better this way.

Yeah, like I'm not going to lose sleep over anime not being incredibly popular. Too bad if people miss out on the really good stuff, but oh well that's on them

 

[Kave_Man]

You forgot Macross, Tenchi Muyo, Lodoss War, and Ranma.

If you couldn't borrow or rent legit tapes or laserdiscs, you had to rely on finding VHS fansubs...sometimes renting them from little specialty shops.

Don't forget Slayers!

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

This thread reminds me, where is that gif from where a dark haired guy just punches the crap out of his opponent?



Personally I know many people who dabble(d) a bit in anime and manga, just like many other forms of entertainment, but also some of the examples of going off the the deep end. The types even the smelly wargamer nerds make fun of (yeah, pecking order is a real thing it seems).

Personally, I only read DB as a kid, but the Robin Hood and freaking Heidi cartoons I couldn't watch as a kid are anime as well, which is always surprising people when I tell them. I should make my nephews watch Robin Hood, I think the few epsiodes I could see were actually good entertainment for kids and not straight up thrash like most of the new 3d series for kids, yes? I mean to watch Akira and GitS, but never come to it. Maybe I should start with a few shows to get a feeling for it? Crunchyroll is a legit streaming site is what theis thread has taught me, but is there a site to download episodes? I prefer watching series during train rides and learn while at home, not the other way round. Gundam Iron whatever Orphans for a start? OR just something where blood sprays and people get shot or cut in half...without fanservice or annoying little girls with whiney voices, even if nobody is trying to fondle them.

What kind of show do you want to watch? Also Crunchyroll is just streaming so you'll need an internet connection if you want to watch anime on there.

I'm going to recommend Space Brothers, because I don't care what you like you should watch Space Brothers. (It doesn't have any fanservice)

There's also Ping Pong: The Animation, god that anime is great.

 

[MHWilliams]

You forgot Macross, Tenchi Muyo, Lodoss War, and Ranma.

If you couldn't borrow or rent legit tapes or laserdiscs, you had to rely on finding VHS fansubs...sometimes renting them from little specialty shops.

I remember watching Macross and Eva on Laserdisc. Hell, we got the our floor on the dorm hooked with Fushigi Yuugi on bootlegs VHS. Getting monthly drops of unsubbed DBZ on recorded on VHS! AGHHHHHHHHHH

I mean to watch Akira and GitS, but never come to it. Maybe I should start with a few shows to get a feeling for it? Crunchyroll is a legit streaming site is what theis thread has taught me, but is there a site to download episodes? I prefer watching series during train rides and learn while at home, not the other way round. Gundam Iron whatever Orphans for a start? OR just something where blood sprays and people get shot or cut in half...without fanservice or annoying little girls with whiney voices, even if nobody is trying to fondle them.

What do you watch or read that's not anime? I'm sure we can find something that appeals to you if we know that.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

"Why don't more people like anime?"

"Well I don't watch it for this and this and this"

"That's bullshit, why should I take what you say seriously, when you haven't watched anime?"

More like:

"Why are you not watching anime?"

"I don't like this and this"

"But anime isn't only this there's also that'

"Why should I care since you like this and this you creep"

 

[PdotMichael]

Yeah, like I'm not going to lose sleep over anime not being incredibly popular. Too bad if people miss out on the really good stuff, but oh well that's on them

I like how people just start talking about everything except the article in the OP.

Although the article operates with a wrong premise. "Geek” is now “mainstream.”" isn't true.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Don't forget Slayers!

And Nadia. City Hunter. Patlabor. Gunbuster. Gunsmith Cats. Project A-ko.

Action and fanservice was prevalent in a lot of the stuff from that time period that actually made it over to the US, hence why it ended up getting said reputation hosannainexcelsis refers to.

 

[John Kowalski]

Yeah, like I'm not going to lose sleep over anime not being incredibly popular. Too bad if people miss out on the really good stuff, but oh well that's on them

Everyone misses on really good stuff somewhere somehow... i'm sure there are tons of things i don't know about because i don't listen to this genre or live near that theatre or near those galleries. I'm not about to care if someone misses on stuff like Ping Pong of F/Z or GuP or Hyouka if they come about complaining about pedophile avatars. Talk about missing the wood for the trees.

 

[Mik317]

Its always funny to see people quickly jump to either passive agressively or outright calling people pedophiles and wonder why they are so defensive.

"hey you like rap?"

"yes"

"wow you must be a sexist POS then"

"what? no I am not. There is a bunch of rap that isn't about that"

"geeze stop being so defensive. There are songs that are sexist thus the whole medium is"

"that's unfair"

"I'm just criticizing it..geez calm down".

It pisses me off every time a version of the above happens (and it does so don't get at me with that "oh thats a strawman" shit...it has happened in this thread and others..).

The problem with these threads is that those who don't like it come in so damn strong. A debate that starts with one side obviously HATING the genre or those who like it isn't going to go anywhere. Calling someone a pedo or creepy loser, already puts them on edge and defensive. Lumping everyone into one sing ball also does this. Is some of the anime community creepy? Yes. Are some of them the aforementioned types that think Japan > all and want to speak in Japanese and change their names and shit? Yes. But that does not make up all of the community.. not even close. Those are the guys/gals who spend the most money and stuff but thats not the whole community. Its weird to see this mentality on a video game board. Games where attacked in the 90s for being too violent and bad for kids and often things like FF7, Mario and other not Mortal Kombat titles where mentioned as a counterpoint. That was valid...and yet here we are condemning a whole field because there are creepy works. That is hypocracy at its finest. You don't trash film because there is porn....lots and lots of porn.

Are there some works that are creepy? Hell yeah. But if you have a problem w/ those...then focus on those titles. There are lots of titles that aren't "creepy or problematic", I'd say at least 3-5 per season .That seems low but there are also tons of titles that either toe the line or have a few things that simply do no translate across culture and thus outsiders or those trying to get in may find them offputting. That is another thing that gets lost too...these are products being made for completely different cultures..so some thing just do not translate well. Like I fuckin love Gintama..proibably one of my top 5 shows of all time...it is a hard recommendation for sure. There is a lot that will go over the heads of many (especially early) and the humor just may not hit.

But still my main point and wish is that when discussing this people have a little bit more respect for others. These threads often devolve into petty name calling and a lot of it starts because someone enters with the already made up idea that everyone who enjoys this are deviant losers and that is unfair and gets the conversation off on the wrong foot. It is moreso annoying considering this is a video game forum and that level of prebaked animosity was something most of us experienced before. Remember when everyone who played games was a potent criminal? That wasn't fair then either.....

 

[MHWilliams]

And Nadia. City Hunter. Patlabor. Gunbuster. Gunsmith Cats. Project A-ko.

Action and fanservice was prevalent in a lot of the stuff from that time period that actually made it over to the US, hence why it ended up getting said reputation hosannainexcelsis refers to.

Most of it had fanservice or outright questionable content. *nods*

 

[dity]

More like:

"Why are you not watching anime?"

"I don't like this and this"

"But anime isn't only this there's also that'

"Why should I care since you like this and this you creep"

What's the third quote actually achieving though? Asking honestly.

 

[sneakydomo]

So are we now at the point to where litmus tests are required to do any sort of commentary on the state of anime and its fandom?

I think if you are to criticize media it is important that you have actually watched or played a significant amount of what is being discussed. I wouldn't take a game reviewer seriously who only saw screenshots of a game. I personally don't comment on games I haven't played or films I haven't watched. It's actually not very much to expect people who criticize something to actually know what they're talking about. But people in this thread obviously don't have the same compunction.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Nah, but Ninja Scroll is a huge gateway for many. It's weird how many people watch Ninja Scroll as kids. Since it wasn't for kids.

Half of the shows Toonami aired would not even be accepted today. I remember they showed Blue Submarine No. 6 which was intense to watch as a kid. Akira was the first time I saw animated boobs. Anime as a whole is generally not for kids although from what I hear Japan doesn't really have an age barrier when it comes to their entertainment. Dragon Ball was meant for kids but it also had extreme adult humor and Bulma fanservice. Also Goku's dick.

 

[John Kowalski]

What's the third quote actually achieving though? Asking honestly.

In the presence of limited perspective it's only natural to feel like correcting it, especially when it's something you enjoy and know extensively about.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

What's the third quote actually achieving though? Asking honestly.

Showing that there's more to it then the things you don't like, that you may enjoy some anime which does not feature the things you don't like, that it's dumb to write off an entire media based on a few animes or tropes.

 

[dity]

In the presence of limited perspective it's only natural to feel like correcting it, especially when it's something you enjoy and know extensively about.

But "this and this" still exists, which doesn't solve the non-fan's dilemma. There's not really a "correction"?

 

[jstripes]

I love anime but can't stand most otakus I've met so yeah idk

I had that exact same epiphany over a decade ago, one Friday night at an anime club showing.

My life improved drastically once I removed myself from that crowd.

Yeah, like I'm not going to lose sleep over anime not being incredibly popular. Too bad if people miss out on the really good stuff, but oh well that's on them

It's like music. No use getting offended if people don't listen to my favourite bands.

 

[partyphone]

It is almost amusing how you continue to insult people and make assumptions. I've come to believe you are a troll poster by your behavior in these threads and the way you derail discussions.

if you took that as an insult that's your problem not mine.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

I had that exact same epiphany over a decade ago, one Friday night at an anime club showing.

My life improved drastically once I removed myself from that crowd.

Yeah.

I don't mind going to Anime conventions with them but not hang with them on the regular basis.

 

[Lostconfused]

Television Shows
Movies
Music
Video Games
Books
Comic Books

is popular, but is it profitable in western market? A big segment of the culture don't believe in paying for shit.

.

 

[LaserBuddha]

I watched anime in the 90's and in the early 2000s when it blew up. There was plenty of adolescent trash released back then, but we tended to get only the better productions and the ones that appealed to adult sensibilities, for better or worse. I think as anime got bigger and the floodgates got opened, we got more of the everyday shlock that is mass produced for Japanese otaku, just piles and piles of garbage harem and moe shows, and we got fans who were more in tune with Japanese culture (relatively speaking) who set out to like anything that was popular in Japan solely because it was popular in Japan. Those people cheered on all the garbage of the last 10-15 years and probably prevented the medium from breaking through when we had a critical mass of artistically respectable productions that were gaining mainstream awareness back then.

Like others, I lost interest in it because of the fetishization of little girls (even when it is not sexual, there is a fixation on them as central characters that seems problematic to me, psychologically, for an adult to be into so much), the tropey-ness of the medium that makes TV sitcoms look incredibly varied by comparison, and just the overall lack of agency and respect for women. And unlike most any other medium there is just no real reflection on actual human life and relationships.

A big problem with these discussions is that, IMO, anime fans can't typically give accurate advice to non-otaku. Numerous times on GAF Ive been directed to an example of a strong female role that is laughable in reality, full of upskirts and shit, but she is a "bad girl" and assertive (or ADORABLY CLUMSY) and by otaku standards that is feminist. Women are barely more than squeaking objects in most anime, even "mature" ones that engage in no overt sexualization. It's like they are pulled out of some Victorian era drama, holding a parasol and gasping as an overly earnest anime hero declares their love. Is this reflective of Japanese society? I don't know. I know that otaku in Japan are notorious for not interacting well with normies, so maybe I should assume the general culture reflected in anime is just fucking wrong and toxic. It just seems like a MRA had some influence in how female characters should act in almost every anime I've seen.

I've had too many anime fans tell me a shitty show is good, because they love anime so much that they couldn't see that it was just another serving of their favorite tropes with slightly different window dressing. This a problem with enthusiasts of anything, where they overblow small details and differences in their own mind when in reality it is all much more similar than they can see.

The humor is usually god awful. It's sort of like memes, fans are laughing because it is a running gag in the medium, but isn't really funny. Is my sense of humor just simply different, not better than, someone who finds it hilarious to bodily fall over or get a nosebleed when a girl says something unintentionally sexual? No, I think I just have a better sense of humor.

Now someone with a little girl avatar can go ahead and tell me I pulled all of this out of my ass, and demand a list of the last 10 anime I watched.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

But "this and this" still exists, which doesn't solve the non-fan's dilemma. There's not really a "correction"?

I'm not sure what you want people to do. If they say that they watch anime because they like the animation quality in something like Nichijou or the direction and storytelling in something like Ping Pong, and others say that's not acceptable because animated porn exists, do you expect anime watchers outside Japan to be able to shut down the Japanese porn industry so their enjoyment of Yamato 2199 is legitimate?

 

[Envelope]

I watched anime in the 90's and in the early 2000s when it blew up. There was plenty of adolescent trash released back then, but we tended to get only the better productions and the ones that appealed to adult sensibilities, for better or worse. I think as anime got bigger and the floodgates got opened, we got more of the everyday shlock that is mass produced for Japanese otaku, just piles and piles of garbage harem and moe shows, and we got fans who were more in tune with Japanese culture (relatively speaking) who set out to like anything that was popular in Japan solely because it was popular in Japan. Those people cheered on all the garbage of the last 10-15 years and probably prevented the medium from breaking through when we had a critical mass of artistically respectable productions that were gaining mainstream awareness back then.

Like others, I lost interest in it because of the fetishization of little girls (even when it is not sexual, there is a fixation on them as central characters that seems problematic to me, psychologically, for an adult to be into so much), the tropey-ness of the medium that makes TV sitcoms look incredibly varied by comparison, and just the overall lack of agency and respect for women. And unlike most any other medium there is just no real reflection on actual human life and relationships.

A big problem with these discussions is that, IMO, anime fans can't typically give accurate advice to non-otaku. Numerous times on GAF Ive been directed to an example of a strong female role that is laughable in reality, full of upskirts and shit, but she is a "bad girl" and assertive (or ADORABLY CLUMSY) and by otaku standards that is feminist. Women are barely more than squeaking objects in most anime, even "mature" ones that engage in no overt sexualization. It's like they are pulled out of some Victorian era drama, holding a parasol and gasping as an overly earnest anime hero declares their love. Is this reflective of Japanese society? I don't know. I know that otaku in Japan are notorious for not interacting well with normies, so maybe I should assume the general culture reflected in anime is just fucking wrong and toxic. It just seems like a MRA had some influence in how female characters should act in almost every anime I've seen.

I've had too many anime fans tell me a shitty show is good, because they love anime so much that they couldn't see that it was just another serving of their favorite tropes with slightly different window dressing. This a problem with enthusiasts of anything, where they overblow small details and differences in their own mind when in reality it is all much more similar than they can see.

The humor is usually god awful. It's sort of like memes, fans are laughing because it is a running gag in the medium, but isn't really funny. Is my sense of humor just simply different, not better than, someone who finds it hilarious to bodily fall over or get a nosebleed when a girl says something unintentionally sexual? No, I think I just have a better sense of humor.

Now someone with a little girl avatar can go ahead and tell me I pulled all of this out of my ass, and demand a list of the last 10 anime I watched.

people w bad taste give bad suggestions, who knew ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[PdotMichael]

I watched anime in the 90's and in the early 2000s when it blew up. There was plenty of adolescent trash released back then, but we tended to get only the better productions and the ones that appealed to adult sensibilities, for better or worse. I think as anime got bigger and the floodgates got opened, we got more of the everyday shlock that is mass produced for Japanese otaku, just piles and piles of garbage harem and moe shows, and we got fans who were more in tune with Japanese culture (relatively speaking) who set out to like anything that was popular in Japan solely because it was popular in Japan. Those people cheered on all the garbage of the last 10-15 years and probably prevented the medium from breaking through when we had a critical mass of artistically respectable productions that were gaining mainstream awareness back then.

Like others, I lost interest in it because of the fetishization of little girls (even when it is not sexual, there is a fixation on them as central characters that seems problematic to me, psychologically, for an adult to be into so much), the tropey-ness of the medium that makes TV sitcoms look incredibly varied by comparison, and just the overall lack of agency and respect for women. And unlike most any other medium there is just no real reflection on actual human life and relationships.

A big problem with these discussions is that, IMO, anime fans can't typically give accurate advice to non-otaku. Numerous times on GAF Ive been directed to an example of a strong female role that is laughable in reality, full of upskirts and shit, but she is a "bad girl" and assertive (or ADORABLY CLUMSY) and by otaku standards that is feminist. Women are barely more than squeaking objects in most anime, even "mature" ones that engage in no overt sexualization. It's like they are pulled out of some Victorian era drama, holding a parasol and gasping as an overly earnest anime hero declares their love. Is this reflective of Japanese society? I don't know. I know that otaku in Japan are notorious for not interacting well with normies, so maybe I should assume the general culture reflected in anime is just fucking wrong and toxic. It just seems like a MRA had some influence in how female characters should act in almost every anime I've seen.

I've had too many anime fans tell me a shitty show is good, because they love anime so much that they couldn't see that it was just another serving of their favorite tropes with slightly different window dressing. This a problem with enthusiasts of anything, where they overblow small details and differences in their own mind when in reality it is all much more similar than they can see.

The humor is usually god awful. It's sort of like memes, fans are laughing because it is a running gag in the medium, but isn't really funny. Is my sense of humor just simply different, not better than, someone who finds it hilarious to bodily fall over or get a nosebleed when a girl says something unintentionally sexual? No, I think I just have a better sense of humor.

Now someone with a little girl avatar can go ahead and tell me I pulled all of this out of my ass, and demand a list of the last 10 anime I watched.

Then don't watch anime.

Who cares about your anecdotes and how is that even relevant to the topic of the thread?

 

[John Kowalski]

But "this and this" still exists, which doesn't solve the non-fan's dilemma. There's not really a "correction"?

That's still why it happens. If you're interested in animation and taken aback by offensive lecherous content that you see here and there you should probably know that there is an extensive reach of material which is devoid of those things. If that doesn't benefit the non fan then there's probably more to his avoidance, and often people just don't care enough but are more keen to note what negative elements they perceive than to acknowledge their disinterest outright.

I feel like that's a complex relationship that also exists in other media and frankly i don't know what to think of why some are "mainstream" (which is itself a dubious proposition) and others not, but more still this concern with becoming accepted and general lack of self esteem and inferiority complex is a poison to the soul and unlikely to promote any real improvement in quality.

 

[Sianos]

I had that exact same epiphany over a decade ago, one Friday night at an anime club showing.

My life improved drastically once I removed myself from that crowd.

I feel the same way about video games: I play tons of games and am really into a lot of the more technical aspects and obscure titles, but most self-proclaimed "gamers" I meet are pretty obnoxious (and ironically know less about the medium than me, yet act so aggressively about asserting themselves).

I enjoy some anime, but definitely recognize that there are many prevalent unpleasant tropes that have permeated a lot of the medium - even my favorites like EVA that are aggressively subversive have some elements I can't justify under the "its designed to trick the people the message is intended for into watching it" reasoning expressed by Anno. Granted, this is the same with all media formats, and I think one reason why we are more critical of anime is because it is less developed and there has been less time for the cream to rise above the deluge of crop.

 

[Nairume]

I think if you are to criticize media it is important that you have actually watched or played a significant amount of what is being discussed. I wouldn't take a game reviewer seriously who only saw screenshots of a game. I personally don't comment on games I haven't played or films I haven't watched. It's actually not very much to expect people who criticize something to actually know what they're talking about. But people in this thread obviously don't have the same compunction.

In most cases, I'd be right there with you. You should normally have some familiarity with what you are criticizing.

But this is one of those cases where that isn't necessary. This very thread is predicated around the question of what has been keeping anime/manga from hitting the mainstream in the same way that other "geek" mediums have. It is absolutely acceptable to have people enter this discussion without having watched much/any anime (and, yes, this includes people who joke about anime avatars) because they can give an important perspective into answering that question. I know well enough that not all anime is overly sexualized minors and gratuitous fanservice, but I still think it's valid to hear out those looking in from the outside who think it is, in order to better understand what's being done to make them think that. The only thing you do by demanding a litmus test out of the people engaged in this conversation is bolstering the notion that anime fans are defensive weirdos who can't handle any push towards opening the medium up for a wider audience, even if you have all right to be defensive in some cases.

And I say this as somebody who has spent well over two decades as an avid consumer of anime and manga and will continue to do so for decades more despite my own misgivings about the same concerns being presented.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Then don't watch anime.

Who cares about your anecdotes and how is that even relevant to the topic of the thread?

This is why anime is now the "rap and country" of geek culture to me. It also alludes to why I think anime failed to break that ceiling. I think if you were trying to be intellectually honest even a tiny bit, you'd see the relevance. But damn, dat "Who cares what you think?" salt.... And dat tag..........

 

[Carcetti]

A big problem with these discussions is that, IMO, anime fans can't typically give accurate advice to non-otaku. Numerous times on GAF Ive been directed to an example of a strong female role that is laughable in reality, full of upskirts and shit, but she is a "bad girl" and assertive (or ADORABLY CLUMSY) and by otaku standards that is feminist. Women are barely more than squeaking objects in most anime, even "mature" ones that engage in no overt sexualization. It's like they are pulled out of some Victorian era drama, holding a parasol and gasping as an overly earnest anime hero declares their love. Is this reflective of Japanese society? I don't know. I know that otaku in Japan are notorious for not interacting well with normies, so maybe I should assume the general culture reflected in anime is just fucking wrong and toxic. It just seems like a MRA had some influence in how female characters should act in almost every anime I've seen.

It's not secret Japan is a hella sexist society. Just from another GAF thread today:
http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2015/rankings/

 

[Mass_Pincup]

I watched anime in the 90's and in the early 2000s when it blew up. There was plenty of adolescent trash released back then, but we tended to get only the better productions and the ones that appealed to adult sensibilities, for better or worse. I think as anime got bigger and the floodgates got opened, we got more of the everyday shlock that is mass produced for Japanese otaku, just piles and piles of garbage harem and moe shows, and we got fans who were more in tune with Japanese culture (relatively speaking) who set out to like anything that was popular in Japan solely because it was popular in Japan. Those people cheered on all the garbage of the last 10-15 years and probably prevented the medium from breaking through when we had a critical mass of artistically respectable productions that were gaining mainstream awareness back then.

Like others, I lost interest in it because of the fetishization of little girls (even when it is not sexual, there is a fixation on them as central characters that seems problematic to me, psychologically, for an adult to be into so much), the tropey-ness of the medium that makes TV sitcoms look incredibly varied by comparison, and just the overall lack of agency and respect for women. And unlike most any other medium there is just no real reflection on actual human life and relationships.

A big problem with these discussions is that, IMO, anime fans can't typically give accurate advice to non-otaku. Numerous times on GAF Ive been directed to an example of a strong female role that is laughable in reality, full of upskirts and shit, but she is a "bad girl" and assertive (or ADORABLY CLUMSY) and by otaku standards that is feminist. Women are barely more than squeaking objects in most anime, even "mature" ones that engage in no overt sexualization. It's like they are pulled out of some Victorian era drama, holding a parasol and gasping as an overly earnest anime hero declares their love. Is this reflective of Japanese society? I don't know. I know that otaku in Japan are notorious for not interacting well with normies, so maybe I should assume the general culture reflected in anime is just fucking wrong and toxic. It just seems like a MRA had some influence in how female characters should act in almost every anime I've seen.

I've had too many anime fans tell me a shitty show is good, because they love anime so much that they couldn't see that it was just another serving of their favorite tropes with slightly different window dressing. This a problem with enthusiasts of anything, where they overblow small details and differences in their own mind when in reality it is all much more similar than they can see.

The humor is usually god awful. It's sort of like memes, fans are laughing because it is a running gag in the medium, but isn't really funny. Is my sense of humor just simply different, not better than, someone who finds it hilarious to bodily fall over or get a nosebleed when a girl says something unintentionally sexual? No, I think I just have a better sense of humor.

Now someone with a little girl avatar can go ahead and tell me I pulled all of this out of my ass, and demand a list of the last 10 anime I watched.

So you watched a couple of animes and that makes you an expert on the whole media? Why don't you just say that from what you've seen that's what happens? Why do you feel the need to generalize the whole genre? There's plenty of strong female characters in anime and you sense of humor is no better then anyone else's. I'm getting tired of this superiority complex you guys are showing in this thread.

 

[PdotMichael]

This is why anime is now the "rap and country" of geek culture to me. I think if you were trying to be intellectually honest even a tiny bit, you'd see the relevance. But damn, dat "Who cares what you think?" salt....

You can use so many memes you want but it doesn't really change the fact that you are mixing things up.
If anime fans recommend anime titles you don't like then is anime maybe not a form of entertainment for you anymore.

It doesn't add anything to the discussion about anime and manga and the ominous mainstream.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

It's worth pointing out here that a large section of the Japanese anime fanbase is female and a number of the best-selling anime, from Gundam SEED to UtaPri to Hozuki no Reitetsu to Blood Blockade Battlefront, have been successful primarily due to their appeal to female fans. In case people have the mistaken notion that anime is a male-only industry.

 

[jstripes]

Yeah.

I don't mind going to Anime conventions with them but not hang with them on the regular basis.

I quickly got sick of the conventions, personally.

The first couple of them in my city, starting in '97, were smallish and full of interesting people, many of them well-rounded. It was still largely an underground subculture at that point. But within a few years, with the anime boom, the cons turned into stifling crush of socially awkward basement dwellers and weaboo girls.

 

[sneakydomo]

In most cases, I'd be right there with you. You should normally have some familiarity with what you are criticizing.

But this is one of those cases where that isn't necessary. This very thread is predicated around the question of what has been keeping anime/manga from hitting the mainstream in the same way that other "geek" mediums have. It is absolutely acceptable to have people enter this discussion without having watched much/any anime (and, yes, this includes people who joke about anime avatars) because they can give an important perspective into answering that question. I know well enough that not all anime is overly sexualized minors and gratuitous fanservice, but I still think it's valid to hear out those looking in from the outside who think it is, in order to better understand what's being done to make them think that. The only thing you do by demanding a litmus test out of the people engaged in this conversation is bolstering the notion that anime fans are defensive weirdos who can't handle any push towards opening the medium up for a wider audience, even if you have all right to be defensive in some cases.

And I say this as somebody who has spent well over two decades as an avid consumer of anime and manga and will continue to do so for decades more despite my own misgivings about the same concerns being presented.

I think it's rather clear that some posters have no real experience with anime and no hesitation in suggesting it is basically low key pedophillia. Great claims require great evidence, or so the saying goes. I find it instructive that the person I directed it to didn't respond. I demand no litmus test, it was an honest and direct attempt to understand how much if anything he knows about the topic.

 

[pants]

This is why anime is now the "rap and country" of geek culture to me. It also alludes to why I think anime failed to break that ceiling. I think if you were trying to be intellectually honest even a tiny bit, you'd see the relevance. But damn, dat "Who cares what you think?" salt....

You wasted what felt like hundreds of words to post an anecdote about why you personally do not like some anime (something you could have avoided if you just stopped watching the shitty anime you didn't enjoy btw) and then proceeded to blame anime as a medium because you cant stop yourself from watching shit you dont like.

No one in this thread will disagree that stupid shit exists, people inside the anime community bitch about it enough to not pay attention to you when you steadfastly continue to pretend that the only thing that exists in anime is the stuff you described and dislike.

You completely deserved that.

 

[SomTervo]

The rest of your post is whatever opinions and not having a solid knowledge-base on which to pull as far as anime goes.

But this is blatantly false... They objectify the fuck out of women on that show...

That's fair enough. I still like anime - love some of it, even - but I will happily concede I don't watch that much of it and I certainly wouldn't call my self an anime "fan". My argument is anecdotal.

Re Game of Thrones their culture objectifies women. GRR Martin - as much as I think he's a shit writer - is a historian, and almost all the sexist shit that happens in that show is historically accurate to the War of the Roses and middle-ages human civilisation. It's still not OK, but if fits the context (in most cases).

NB - I did say almost above - there are a handful of scenes over the 5 seasons where the sex shit is totally unnecessary and they do objectify women in those.

But tonally it never felt out of context.

In anime, every time I've seen sexist/objectifying shit happen, it is always out of context. It's always just dropped in there. It's always a harmless, normal scene, then boom panty shot or boom cleavage shot, with embarrassed protagonist, yadda. Seen it in infinitely more anime than I've seen in Western TV.

 

[Sianos]

Is there an equivalent to Feminist Frequency for anime? Seems like such a group would be useful to promote anime that deals with gender issues well and both help steer people in the direction of better anime and help steer the average show in a more palatable direction.

 

[Modest Mauser]

So you watched a couple of animes and that makes you an expert on the whole media? Why don't you just say that from what you've seen that's what happens? Why do you feel the need to generalize the whole genre? There's plenty of strong female characters in anime and you sense of humor is no better then anyone else's. I'm getting tired of this superiority complex you guys are showing in this thread.

Where in his comment does he claim to be an expert or that there's no good female characters in anime?

 

[Acorn]

If you need validation for your hobby it's no longer a hobby but part of your identity. Address that shit and like what you like fuck anyone else.

 

[SomTervo]

Is there an equivalent to Feminist Frequency for anime? Seems like such a group would be useful to promote anime that deals with gender issues well and both help steer people in the direction of better anime and help steer the average show in a more palatable direction.

That would be great. And is sorely needed, imo.

Numerous times on GAF Ive been directed to an example of a strong female role that is laughable in reality, full of upskirts and shit, but she is a "bad girl" and assertive (or ADORABLY CLUMSY) and by otaku standards that is feminist. Women are barely more than squeaking objects in most anime, even "mature" ones that engage in no overt sexualization. It's like they are pulled out of some Victorian era drama, holding a parasol and gasping as an overly earnest anime hero declares their love. Is this reflective of Japanese society? I don't know. I know that otaku in Japan are notorious for not interacting well with normies, so maybe I should assume the general culture reflected in anime is just fucking wrong and toxic. It just seems like a MRA had some influence in how female characters should act in almost every anime I've seen.

See, this is my experience.

Obviously it's not true of every anime - and obviously it's true of a lot of Western media in a different way (more structural, less active) - but I've watched probably 20 anime series, liked about 7 of them, and I can think of literally two that didn't have the above.

It's not secret Japan is a hella sexist society. Just from another GAF thread today:
http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2015/rankings/

Thanks for this - there are other huge problems happening there too, in terms of gender relations. See the BBC documentary 'No sex please, We're Japanese'.

When Seven Deadly Sins started airing, the general reaction to it in AnimeGAF was "I don't want to watch this stuff." I don't think it's typical of shounen action manga adaptations.

Fair enough (although that does sound more like a statement of genre/style rather than the topical events depicted within).

 

[AnathemicOne]

Is there an equivalent to Feminist Frequency for anime? Seems like such a group would be useful to promote anime that deals with gender issues well and both help steer people in the direction of better anime and help steer the average show in a more palatable direction.

Are you referencing a poltical activist group? If so I find that impractical due to the only target audience for anime is Japan; everywhere else just license the shows overseas. Anime industry don't give a fuck about the West.

 

[jstripes]

It's worth pointing out here that a large section of the Japanese anime fanbase is female and a number of the best-selling anime, from Gundam SEED to UtaPri to Hozuki no Reitetsu to Blood Blockade Battlefront, have been successful primarily due to their appeal to female fans. In case people have the mistaken notion that anime is a male-only industry.

Yup, the female fanbase is rabid, but is completely overshadowed by the manchildren.

I used to know a few girls who would completely obsess over specific characters, and read and write slash fiction about them in their spare time.

My daughter, who used to casually watch anime, has a real chip on her shoulder about the weaboos at her school. Last year at her school's multicultural fair, a bunch of non-Japanese girls, dressed in cosplay, had a "Japan" table. It was as embarrassing as you'd expect.

 

[Nairume]

I think it's rather clear that some posters have no real experience with anime and no hesitation in suggesting it is basically low key pedophillia. Great claims require great evidence, or so the saying goes. I find it instructive that the person I directed it to didn't respond. I demand no litmus test, it was an honest and direct attempt to understand how much if anything he knows about the topic.

I'm sorry but

Is that your argument? How much anime have you watched? Why should I take anything you say seriously?

is absolutely you demanding a litmus test in order to determine whether or not somebody should be listened to in a thread based around figuring out why aren't people more accepting towards anime

You are not helping make the anime community look better by doing this, regardless of whether or not somebody has made incendiary claims.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Where in his comment does he claim to be an expert or that there's no good female characters in anime?

Here:

Women are barely more than squeaking objects in most anime, even "mature" ones that engage in no overt sexualization.

If you're attempting to comment on an entire media I expect you to actually know what you're talking about. I won't attempt to criticize american football after watching a couple of games for exemple.

 

[Tohsaka]

Is there an equivalent to Feminist Frequency for anime? Seems like such a group would be useful to promote anime that deals with gender issues well and both help steer people in the direction of better anime and help steer the average show in a more palatable direction.

Not going to happen, because anime is almost exclusively made with the Japanese market in mind. The west is just an afterthought.

 

[SomTervo]

Yup, the female fanbase is rabid, but is completely overshadowed by the manchildren.

I used to know a few girls who would completely obsess over specific characters, and read and write slash fiction about them in their spare time.

My daughter, who used to casually watch anime, has a real chip on her shoulder about the weaboos at her school. Last year at her school's multicultural fair, a bunch of non-Japanese girls, dressed in cosplay, had a "Japan" table. It was as embarrassing as you'd expect.

Sheer cringe.

Can I ask ITT what 'weaboo' means?

 

[jstripes]

Is there an equivalent to Feminist Frequency for anime? Seems like such a group would be useful to promote anime that deals with gender issues well and both help steer people in the direction of better anime and help steer the average show in a more palatable direction.

That sounds like it would be one of those futile, eternal tasks doled out as punishment by the Greek gods.

 

[Modest Mauser]

Is there an equivalent to Feminist Frequency for anime? Seems like such a group would be useful to promote anime that deals with gender issues well and both help steer people in the direction of better anime and help steer the average show in a more palatable direction.

This would be so good. But I can imagine the inevitable backlash and harassment might deter someone from wanting to start a series like that.