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[Bobby Roberts]

So, I was listening to the soundtrack and got to the part where Rey use the force to grab on to Luke's lightsaber before Kylo Ren does and the Force Theme cue is different from the movie. I hoped that was a thing of the past. The prequels did this a lot, where the movies and the soundtracks had different cues.

The cue you're looking for is here, actually.

Staffs and swords are the same thing...OK...

What are you really trying to argue here, though? That she couldn't possibly know how to fight with a sword because she's only good at fighting with a staff?

I'd suggest that's probably kind of a bad argument.

That's even setting aside the fact she's obviously strong with the Force.

 

[golem]

The thing with the interrogation scene is that the mind takes both conscious and subconscious efforts to defend itself (that is just normal everyday psychology). For someone gifted with jedi powers that would seem to be an area where those defenses could come into play without training. A sword fight where you've never swung a weapon before? Please. Even Finn being decent makes some sense as he was trained as a warrior.

Rey normally wields a staff, so she's probably fairly proficient in melee combat. Also if you look at the fighting style she used when wielding the lightsaber, those are definitely not those of someone new to swordplay.

 

[SparkleMotion]

Luke didn't do "well" against Vader. There was no chance he was going to win that. Rey beat a highly trained dark jedi (and for jedis it doesn't really matter that they are wounded) without any experience with a sword (her sucker-punching Finn not withstanding).

I'm not hating on the movie at all. Loved every second of it.

We don't know how well trained Ren is. Besides, he's constantly being pulled in different directions mentally. He's unstable. That doesn't make for a great fighter.

 

[Acerac]

There is no reading to be done.

There's 7 films and 2 TV shows (The Clone Wars and Rebels). Everything else is non-canon.

Got it. So basically Luke being chump league is due to his lack of feats compared to the Jedi in these works?

That's logical, though I feel the difference in medium is likely a factor. Movie Mace Windu v TV show Mace Windu is an example of a character that seems far stronger in one than the other.

 

[duckroll]

Cmon guys. Kylo Ren is a jobber. Just face it. It's written all over his face from the very first time he took off his mask when he was alone with Rey. There's no question that he is better trained at using the force and at using a lightsaber. There's no question that he certainly had the potential to wipe the floor with both Finn and Rey. So why did he lose in the end? Because that's what losers always do in the end - they lose.

 

[Jarmel]

When they started showing the X-wing pilots was anyone else like..

HOLY SHIT. IT'S MATT PARKMAN.

I got a huge laugh out of that. A number of people in the theater were apparently Heroes fans too.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Staffs and swords are the same thing...OK...

Staffs arent weapons now.... ok..

 

[Jest Chillin]

Well someone taught him considering he was killing students with it at the temple massacre.

It wouldn't take a lot of training to slaughter unarmed people who were very new to using The Force and had little to no combat training at that point.

There we are, that's the heart of my issue, I'm not familiar with what is currently canon.

Would you be able to direct me towards some reading I could do on this subject? I'd greatly appreciate it. Apologies for being abrasive, but I'd legitimately like to learn here.

The books are a harder one to nail down now but even just the Episodes 1-6 and The Clone Wars cartoon should be enough to give you a great understanding of SWU. All of that is still canon.

 

[offtopic]

I bought Rey's accelerated growth in her abilities. Partly because I think they established that she is really freaking powerful - or at least, off the charts potential. And partly because she was, through the entire arc, imitating abilities she had seen Kylo using. She was basically, going, hmm. I wonder if I can do that...and she could. Just raw untapped power.

The only scene I thought was a stretch was mind controlling the storm trooper, but it was a fun enough callback and with a big enough payoff that I decided not to care.

I liked that they established her as a superb, agile fighter with a staff early in the film. I didn't see it coming, but I thought that setup her going toe to toe with Kylo believable for that reason, once she had the right weapon and nascent force awareness.

Han's death was predictable as soon as he was sent to go get his boy, but they handled it well overall. I still don't think it was necessary and it felt overly manipulative, but it fit within the story. And thank goodness they didn't make the mistake of killing off Kylo in the first film. Enough of the rotating villains the prequels used.

Han's death was certain as soon as it became apparent how important parallels are for this movie to ANH. He was the only logical Obi-Wan analogy.

 

[Acerac]

No, this isn't true. Every book after "A New Dawn" and every comic after Star Wars #1 from Marvel (and Sons of Dathomir from Dark Horse) is canon.

Ooh, thanks. Duly noted.

Any of these cover how Luke is a punk bitch despite training as a Jedi far more quickly than the standard and being the son of the chosen one? Or is it just a lack of feats compared to jedi from other mediums, which while iffy, at least I can understand.

 

[RellyRell28]

2 questions regarding the end

1. Was I the only one who thought the planet at the end where Luke was at was Earth?


2. Regarding Luke's hand I remember in ESB when he got his hand cut off by Vader and they put the robotic hand on that it had flesh on it(even restoring feeling in that hand too). Why is it just robotic now all of a sudden? Keep in mind I only saw the special edition of the OT.

 

[Chitown B]

It seems ludicrously absurd to me to be raking over TFA's script with a fine tooth comb, as if A New Hope wasn't one of the hokiest, pulpiest space movies ever made. Like, damn, it's Star Wars, and we used to love it for its cheese. One of the best creative decisions that Lucasfilm and JJ made with this movie was to make it hokey and pulpy.

fucking WORD.

The problem with the PT was they were all exposition and super serious. They weren't fun at all, save from maybe some crap in Ep1 with the podracing. Everything else was just huge sets and special effects.

Ep7 is all about the characters and really fun and funny

 

[SparkleMotion]

Did they say in the movie how long Rey has been on Jakku? Did she grow up there? We know she's waiting for someone, but did the movie say how long she was waiting?

 

[rekameohs]

Rey's first action scene has her kicking ass with a melee weapon, and Kylo Ren is injured, severely mentally unstable, and has never fought a lightsaber wielder in his life, and we're questioning how she manages to beat him, even just barely as she's pushed to the literal and figurative edge?

 

[JeffZero]

The planet blew up. Han and Finn took care of her. How would she have gotten off the planet.

Because this is Star Wars.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Han's death was certain as soon as it became apparent how important parallels are for this movie to ANH. He was the only logical Obi-Wan analogy.

That too.

 

[diaspora]

Rey's first action scene has her kicking ass with a melee weapon, and Kylo Ren is injured, severely mentally unstable, and has never fought a lightsaber wielder in his life, and we're questioning how she manages to beat him?

A vanilla stormtrooper cut him twice.

 

[Acerac]

Did they say in the movie how long Rey has been on Jakku? Did she grow up there? We know she's waiting for someone, but did the movie say how long she was waiting?

The flashback implied that she's been there since she's been quite young.

 

[injurai]

2 questions regarding the end

1. Was I the only one who thought the planet at the end where Luke was at was Earth?


2. Regarding Luke's hand I remember in ESB when he got his hand cut off by Vader and they put the robotic hand on that it had flesh on it(even restoring feeling in that hand too). Why is it just robotic now all of a sudden? Keep in mind I only saw the special edition of the OT.

For 2. If I remember correctly In ROTJ luke can be seen putting a black glove over a raw robotic hand. I forget why or when the fake skin get's damaged though.

 

[Heroman]

Rey's first action scene has her kicking ass with a melee weapon, and Kylo Ren is injured, severely mentally unstable, and has never fought a lightsaber wielder in his life, and we're questioning how she manages to beat him?

Because Jedii>>>Trained warrior>>>> person who uses a melee weapon.

 

[Calcium]

I can't believe so many people are complaining about the Rey/Ren fight. Chewie's Bowcaster is incredibly powerful, it sends Stormtroopers flying several times in the movie. Kylo Ren took a shot to the torso and kept going. I can fully buy that Rey (who is obviously skilled in melee combat and finding she is very powerful in the Force) could hold her own against a dude with a hole in his side.

Did they say in the movie how long Rey has been on Jakku? Did she grow up there? We know she's waiting for someone, but did the movie say how long she was waiting?

It looked like she was around 8 in the flashback of her screaming "Don't go!" at the ship.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Starkiller Base didn't "blow up," it turned into a sun.

I'm not sure a lot of the audience is catching that, actually. I didn't on first view, myself.

 

[offtopic]

The cue you're looking for is here, actually.



What are you really trying to argue here, though? That she couldn't possibly know how to fight with a sword because she's only good at fighting with a staff?

I'd suggest that's probably kind of a bad argument.

That's even setting aside the fact she's obviously strong with the Force.

I know some fencers and even a few years of training puts someone trained in a weapon just ridiculously ahead of someone who has never picked one up. I can buy that Rey is potentially incredibly bad-ass in the force but have a hard time imagining her beating someone in something that requires pretty specific training.

My original point was that I found he ability to resist Kylo during the interrogation to be pretty natural given how our brains work and that formal training wouldn't be as important in that case.

 

[3N16MA]

The more people try to defend Rey's absurd proficiency with the Force and lighsabers as not being too far fetched and within the scope of her abilities for whatever reason, the more I actually dislike those aspects of the film and her character.

Kylo Ren is a powerful Force user who has been training at it and swordsmanship presumably for most of his life. It makes no sense whatsoever that Rey got the better of him during the interrogation exchange. I would have understood and actually liked it if she got a shot in after he extracted what he wanted and that startled him. For her to actually turn it all on him though, I don't think that should have happened. It made Kylo Ren look like a joke and sucked tension out of his subsequent scenes because he was prematurely neutered.

The sword fight at the end you could mitigate to some extent because he was shot and in pain and that clearly affected his stamina, but those should have been the reasons he lost instead of Rey pausing the game, taping into the Force just because he mentioned she needed to be taught how to use it and then suddenly whooping his ass. What that scene needed was an Empire inspired Vader VS Luke but with Ren being significantly more hurt by the end of it but strong enough to end in a tactical retreat either by Rey and Finn or by him after Chewbacca showed up in the Falcon or because, you know, the whole base was blowing up.

I also did not like that she flipped his technique on him and read his mind. I could buy that she was able to block him as he probably never tried to read the mind of someone that can use the force. Could have thrown him off. However I would think that Kylo has enough ability to prevent someone who just discovered their ability from reading his thoughts. Seems too powerful too quick.

As I mentioned in a previous post I was OK with the final battle. He was badly hurt, unhinged, and battling someone who could actually take care of herself.

He did knock Finn out cold once he was touched. The guy was still out hours later.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Kind of reinforces how Kylo is an inadequate Vader acolyte with incomplete training, no? Exactly where his character arc was heading all along.

Exactly. This is why the saber fight in this worked so well, it was a return to form for the series where a lightsaber battle represented the characters themselves, instead of just an excuse to sell toys and employ choreographers. I don't understand why people are trying to apply this Dragon Ball Z "shouldn't Kylo Ren have at least a 1500 power level" stuff to that scene.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Rey's first action scene has her kicking ass with a melee weapon, and Kylo Ren is injured, severely mentally unstable, and has never fought a lightsaber wielder in his life, and we're questioning how she manages to beat him, even just barely as she's pushed to the literal and figurative edge?

None of those reasons have much weight to me.
I have a simpler explanation, the film wanted her to win and so she did.

 

[golem]

Did they say in the movie how long Rey has been on Jakku? Did she grow up there? We know she's waiting for someone, but did the movie say how long she was waiting?

No idea. They do show a shot of the marks on her wall she has been using to keep time but from what I could see it didnt seem like nearly enough to be from childhood to her current age

 

[rekameohs]

A vanilla stormtrooper cut him twice.

Yeah, Ren ain't even close to Vader levels of being able to outmatch a newbie at this point.

 

[Veelk]

Luke in ANH had Obiwan's guidance to focus for that one shot. That's nowhere near as impressive as Rey punking Kylo twice without any formal training.

Obi-wan's 'guidance' is him whispering in his ear to use the force. I'm pretty sure the movie framed it as Luke's efforts alone and Obiwan just reminded him to do it. I'm talking abilities alone, even if Luke was reminded of it, then a minute long exercise let him take a shot like that? Obiwan would have had to help a significant amount, to the point where he was basically possessing Luke, if it was actually done through his influence, because Luke's capability would have been minimal at best.

It's quite possibly Luke didn't surpass Vader until years after the OT - if ever - however, the important thing to keep in mind is that Luke had Obiwan and Yoda and several years passed between ANH and Jedi.

Which changes nothing about the fact that Yoda considered Luke's training complete after what could have only been hours.

Luke and Rey just don't compare. His proficiency was earned. Rey's was not.

Going by your argument, Luke never had proficiency. If what you say is true, Obiwan guided his shot and the Empire never took him seriously enough to want to kill and Luke simply won through delay tactics that Vader allowed. So if your argument is to be believed....Luke sucked ass.

 

[Jarmel]

Starkiller Base didn't "blow up," it turned into a sun.

I'm not sure a lot of the audience is catching that, actually. I didn't on first view, myself.

I caught that. More like the energy captured by it stabilized and returned to its natural form.

 

[EdReedFan20]

The cue you're looking for is here, actually.



What are you really trying to argue here, though? That she couldn't possibly know how to fight with a sword because she's only good at fighting with a staff?

I'd suggest that's probably kind of a bad argument.

That's even setting aside the fact she's obviously strong with the Force.

I knew it was used from ANH, I figured it was a new recording of that particular cue. Also, the music from the 90 second teaser was clearly used in part during the Jedi Steps track. I wonder if somewhere there is a fuller version of that cue. I have suspicions we will see an expanded soundtrack.

 

[Chitown B]

I got a huge laugh out of that. A number of people in the theater were apparently Heroes fans too.

he's in like every JJ tv show. He's even the pilot who dies in the LOST pilot.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I know some fencers

You see anything in this movie that looked like highly trained fencing, though?

 

[lastplayed]

Cmon guys. Kylo Ren is a jobber.

I keep seeing this word. I have no idea what it means.

 

[Frog-fu]

I saw a spoiler review that brought up a good point. Kylo probably has like zero experience actually fighting against someone else with a lightsaber. Luke is the last Jedi. So who has Kylo fought since the massacre? What experience does he have in actual combat, with a skilled combatant? He's used his saber for sure, as a tool to slaughter people like Sydow's character, but in real fights against someone else wielding a lightsaber? It's probably been many years since that

On the other hand, Rey is a lifelong scavenger skilled in fighting with her staff

That point of speculation doesn't make much sense at all.

Ren is the master of the Knights of Ren. He had been tested a number of times by Snoke. He goes into battle against blasters wielding only a sword. When fighting Finn and Rey he duels with grace and verocity.

Everything in the movie suggests that he is a very skilled swordsman who should be a force to be reckoned with, especially against those who never picked up saber in their lives before.

Even when under Luke's tutelage there were other students that Ren killed so presumably he had sparring partners even then.

Rey fights with a staff. Lightsabers are completely different.

The thing with the interrogation scene is that the mind takes both conscious and subconscious efforts to defend itself (that is just normal everyday psychology). For someone gifted with jedi powers that would seem to be an area where those defenses could come into play without training. A sword fight where you've never swung a weapon before? Please. Even Finn being decent makes some sense as he was trained as a warrior.

Some instinctual defensive ability would be par for the course. If Poe could resist for a few seconds, Rey could surely do better than that. What I don't find acceptable is that she completely overwhelmed him on her first try with the Force. It's stupid, it's contrived and it trivialises the Force.

Finn is a trained warrior who one could presumably had some basic melee weapon training, and he was motivated by rage and fighting an injured opponent. He still got bodied, but him fighting back and getting one hit in similar to Luke in Empire is fine.

Rey getting a few more hits on an even more tired Ren would have been fine. What I don't think is fine is her whooping his so easily. It's just so dumb and wasn't necessary at all.

 

[Timbuktu]

I knew when Han walked out on that platform that he wasn't coming back. And Leia pressed Han to reconcile with Ben. SHE KILLED HIM!

It's obvious Leia must have messed up, a lot, for things to be where they are in TFA.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I wonder if somewhere there is a fuller version of that cue.

Jedi Steps? I doubt it. It sounded exactly like what was used in the film, and I can pick out exactly the part that was used in the Shondaland spot. I think that's all there is of The Jedi Steps. Unfortunately.

 

[SparkleMotion]

Because Jedii>>>Trained warrior>>>> person who uses a melee weapon.

Ren isn't as good at what he does as he thinks he is. The movie goes out of its way to show this. He's a brat who thinks he's Vader because he has some force ability. It was only a matter of time until he got his ass kicked.

 

[brownfedora]

It made Kylo Ren look like a joke and sucked tension out of his subsequent scenes because he was prematurely neutered.

The movie makes it clear that Kylo Ren's relationship with the force is unstable...at best. Maybe he hasn't been neutered but his inability to defeat Rey is actually tied to this instability.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

Luke didn't do "well" against Vader. There was no chance he was going to win that. Rey beat a highly trained dark jedi (and for jedis it doesn't really matter that they are wounded) without any experience with a sword (her sucker-punching Finn not withstanding).

I'm not hating on the movie at all. Loved every second of it.

Hell yeah, Luke did "well" against Vader. You can do well even if he wasn't going to win. Vader starts toying with him but when Luke surprises him and puts up a decent fight is precisely when he stops toying with him and ends things. Because he realizes that he underestimated him and he's taking an unnecessary risk in prolonging the fight anymore. Otherwise he risks pulling a Rocky 3 with Luke as Clubber Lang.

 

[sirap]

2 questions regarding the end

1. Was I the only one who thought the planet at the end where Luke was at was Earth?


2. Regarding Luke's hand I remember in ESB when he got his hand cut off by Vader and they put the robotic hand on that it had flesh on it(even restoring feeling in that hand too). Why is it just robotic now all of a sudden? Keep in mind I only saw the special edition of the OT.

1. Yeah it did look like Earth, but with most places submerged in water. Would be pretty awesome if Jedi and Sith originated from Earth. Maybe they were scientologists!

2. I'm not sure if this is canon, but I remember reading something about how synthetic skin deteriorates after a certain amount of time. Can't remember which Star Wars book I read it from, or if it came from comics.

 

[Jarmel]

Something I really liked was that Ren's real animosity wasn't even towards Rey but Finn. Him calling Finn a traitor was an outward reflection of his own shame at backstabbing his fellow Jedi.

It was more like Ren and Finn had an emotional connection rather than Ren with Rey.

 

[offtopic]

I can't believe so many people are complaining about the Rey/Ren fight. Chewie's Bowcaster is incredibly powerful, it sends Stormtroopers flying several times in the movie. Kylo Ren took a shot to the torso and kept going. I can fully buy that Rey (who is obviously skilled in melee combat and finding she is very powerful in the Force) could hold her own against a dude with a hole in his side.

Kylo didn't appear to have any lack of energy or power for the fight. He moved just fine and as a jedi his ability to focus on technique through the pain would be unquestioned. I would buy more that he was fighting without control because of what just happened with his father...that would seem to effect a jedi more than a flesh wound.

 

[diaspora]

The movie makes it clear that Kylo Ren's relationship with the force is unstable...at best. Maybe he hasn't been neutered but his inability to defeat Rey is actually tied to this instability.

Incorrect, his connection to the dark side is unstable, not to the force in general.

 

[Chitown B]

Rey's first action scene has her kicking ass with a melee weapon, and Kylo Ren is injured, severely mentally unstable, and has never fought a lightsaber wielder in his life, and we're questioning how she manages to beat him, even just barely as she's pushed to the literal and figurative edge?

I feel like it's pretty well established that Kylo is unhinged and angry, but also that he's not super well trained or skilled. Just has raw power. It's almost like he's a kid who just got magic powers and doesn't fully know how to use them yet to the fullest (i.e. apply to finesse in fighting)

 

[CaviarMeths]

Got it. So basically Luke being chump league is due to his lack of feats compared to the Jedi in these works?

That's logical, though I feel the difference in medium is likely a factor. Movie Mace Windu v TV show Mace Windu is an example of a character that seems far stronger in one than the other.

Oh no, listen to the two people who corrected me, not me.

There's new books and comics that actually are canon.

But yeah, Luke is kind of a chump. But he's the best chump we got right now.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Something I really like in the setup here is the potential to see both the villain and hero progress greatly in their powers as the series unfolds; it's established that they're both off to get trained at the end. Kylo vs. Rey: rematch is going to be fucking amazing.

 

[lastplayed]

Starkiller Base didn't "blow up," it turned into a sun.

I'm not sure a lot of the audience is catching that, actually. I didn't on first view, myself.

Yeah that was cool. Imagine the people in the system... "Nooo they just sucked up our star! No wait, we've got a new one!"

 

[3N16MA]

Don't worry. Snoke is going to activate Kylo's beast mode.

He will take round 2.

 

[Wingfan19]

I can't read 280 pages of thread, so I'm gonna ask here. Who was the old guy that gave Poe the map at the beginning?