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[Brakke]

As of now, yes.
Obi-wan and Anakin/Vader appeared in 1-6.

Obi-Wan's voice is in this one. For one word tho...

You know, I kind of wish there was a cut with it not ending on that final awkward shot

Just close your eyes lol. That's also how you can still watch Han shooting Greedo.

 

[BravesCountry]

Too be honest it's because most people can relate to Rey (skin color, srry but kinda true) but yes like I said before Finns arc is unpredictable now and I can't wait where he goes next. Of course if he ain't just sleeping through out ep 8

If anything it is much easier to relate to Finn since he is much more grounded of a character and not superhuman, trying to make his way through a fucked up world where events are largely out of his control. He is a much better written character than Rey IMO and I am excited to see how he changes throughout the trilogy since I think he has a lot more room to grow.

 

[wheeplash]

Edited.

 

[Frog-fu]

Last post of the night since I got work in a few hours.

The youngling thing doesn't matter because when A New Hope was written that was not the intention. And, even if it was, the audience didn't know that and they didn't seem to care. Whether the blasts are lethal is irrelevant; he's still blocking things moving as fast as those, without his vision no less. He stumbles by getting hit a few times, but so does Rey when she runs away from Ren for the first 3/4 of the duel.

And he blows up a Death Star, which is pretty fucking crazy. Rey doesn't have an old man literally next to her, but she's has plenty of guidance throughout the film. Maz Kanata speaks to her, and she has a vision where two of the greatest Jedi who have ever lived speak to her directly. For all we know, given the craziness of that scene, she is being touched by the Force. That, combined with Kylo directly touching her with the Force and her moment of focus in the duel, makes me buy her sudden turn around.

Learning how to use the Force isn't a karate lesson. The original trilogy seemed to make it more about the personal challenges people faced than whether or not they did their Force Workout for a year. Kylo Ren is skilled and it is crazy Rey beats him, but they build his character in a way where it's not impossible because he's also battling himself in that scene.

People keep focusing on how Kylo Ren has been "trained," but not everyone takes to training the same way. He seems like he'd be a shitty student or prone to ignore teachings when giving into his extreme emotions.

Of course it matters, it's canon and the writers knew that going in. Even without the PT we already knew it was a training device in ANH given the fact it wasn't shooting lethal blasts and Obiwan standing there and giving Luke advice. The only difference is that now we know it used to train younglings specifically.

As for the Death Star - well, for one that convient writing. Secondly, Luke claims to be capable of making the shot. Obiwan is there to help him make that shot in that extremely convenient weakspot.

We don't know jack about what the vision did to Rey aside from freaking her out. You can't build an argument on that, not a good one anyway.

Ren is subservient to Snoke to the point of being obsequious.

I made two posts directly related to this, but they keep getting ignored.

He is definitely struggling from his wounds in the film, bud. I made sure to look at him fighting when I saw the movie again yesterday. After taking Finn down he's shown having trouble recovering from the swings he makes. He nearly falls over 2-3 times. Takes a second to gather himself then swings again. All while Rey is just sprinting away.

I'm not exaggerating either. He is still swinging hard, but isn't completely focused. She could've won before the force moment. He was pretty out of it.

I've seen the fight three times. Twice with a critical eye.

Ren is toying with Finn. He is deliberately fucking up and letting him fall and get back up. He gets nicked once and then wrecks him in seconds.

When fighting Rey, up until the power up, he is on the offensive and pushing her. He even does the fanciful choreography when he misses - and he misses not because his aim is wildly off, he's missing because Rey is running from him. Despite that, he still manages to corner her. He has her at his mercy.

It was the central component of all Luke's fights in the OT. Or hell, all his challenges. Why did Luke make the shot that destroyed the deathstar that no one else could? Because he used the force competently, which was a result of his minute long training with Ben. In Empire, why couldn't he lift his X-wing out of the swamp? Not because of control or patience or practice, but, according to Yoda, belief. Why was he unable to beat Vader? Because he had the internal conflict that Yoda talked about in his fight in the cave. Why could Luke face Vader easily in RotJ? Because he was confident in himself as a Jedi, while he preyed on Vader's doubts. Why did Luke over power Vader? Because Vader enticed him to focus on a single objective of protecting his sister. In every single conflict you can find within him, he loses or wins depending on who his character is at the time, not how powerful he is.

Jedi's don't work on physics, and the reason Rey would have lost if she tried to use practical methods isn't because of any sense of morality. It's has nothing to do with whether Ren is a murderous piece of shit, and Han isn't a Jedi so his life is indeed more physics based, so he's not an argument (Honestly, given that Greedo was threatening him with a gun, it's a case of self defense whether he shot first or not). It's because she was clinging to her past identity that was in conflict with who she wanted to become. The moment she accepted that she would move on with her life, that's not her becoming a 'better' person, but a more complete person. That's why she won.

What, dude, no. This post is rife with inaccuracies.

- Luke claims to have shots similar to the one necessary to destroy the Death Star many times before, he just doesn't have the chance to prove it because Obiwan's voice appeares to guide him into using the Force
- Luke is at first incapable of using the Force to lift the X-Wing because he is doubtful of its power, he simply doesn't know enough, but he still needs practice to actually get there, pure belief isn't enough
- Luke lost to Vader because Vader was stronger, not because he didn't believe in himself
- Luke could face Vader because he believed in Vader, not because he believed in himself; during their fight he is fueled by anger and a will to protect Leia, it's almost purely physical; Luke isn't letting go off his emotions and the Force flow through him; he's scared and angry and he almosts slips into the Dark Side because he nearly gives in to the impulses that feed it, it's exactly what the Emperor wants to happen

Rey isn't a Jedi. Yet. She has no reason to be beholden to those principles. She's just a scared girl fighting for her life.

Luke never actually tried to calm his ass down and listen to the Force during that fight, either.

In fact, he wasn't even supposed to have gone there in the first fuckin place.

Who knows if he'd actually managed to compose himself with the amount of control Rey had during her fight with a much weaker Force user. He managed to get over on Vader a couple times (kicked him off a ledge, caught him on the shoulder - like Finn!) even in that heightened, semi-panicked state. It's hard to say Luke didn't have a hidden power-up, because Luke never tried. He ran headlong into that fight with not much more than a bunch of eager self-righteousness and an underlying thirst for revenge (which is not the Jedi way, of course) and caught an asswhipping when he didn't chill out and listen to the Force.

Which is really all Yoda was trying to teach him to do anyway. Chill out and LISTEN to what the Force is telling you. Don't fight it. Just let it in.

Which is what Rey did.

Disregarding just how speculative this is for a minute - what makes you think letting the Force is such an easy thing? Don't you think that if there was some kind of "I win" button that Obiwan would have used it against Vader in ANH? Qui-Gon against Maul? Yoda against Palpatine? All three of them were masters of the Force. They were wise and experienced users of the Force. Surely they could have done what Rey did if it was just a simple as "letting the Force in."

Just accepting and giving into the Force is not enough. It has never been enough. It takes years of dedication that Rey hasn't put in.

Mind you, Luke only got a few shots in on Vader in Empire because Vader was toying with him and deliberately avoiding killing him.

I don't buy it.

 

[Ragnorok64]

Can we ban the term "Mary Sue?" I'm all for continuing the argument, but I'm about to blow my brains out if I read that again.

What's the alternative term?

 

[Jacksinthe]

In currently canon star wars media a padawan tried to do the jedi mind trick and failed horribly, only for his master to later tell him he requires more training or to be more in tune with the force or something.

Rey getting the jedi mind trick with little knowledge of the force and not even seeing it before hand, or even beginning her training in the force, is kind of bullshit. That's the one thing that really bothered me, beating Kylo at the end is whatever since he was severely wounded from other shit.

If the opening line of the next movie isn't "wow you're really gifted with the force, like REALLY gifted with it" then i'll just assume they are now saying the mind trick is no biggie even a no skill newbie could do it

Kylo got inside her head to get the map. She knows what that felt like when he went prying deep for info. That's how she experienced it the first time.

In ANH we already know getting in someone's head only works on the "weak minded" - like troopers.

That's a bit of a toss, from me, but if she is Luke's kid with force sensitivities and already had someone prodding around in there, someone still inexperienced (according to Snoke - he still has training to do), its possible she got inside his mind when he opened up the door to get inside hers. I can only venture a not-so-wild-guess that she's extremely resilient being a lone wolf scavenger on a planet that's inhospitable. She's quick to adapt.

 

[Sobriquet]

I see why they cast Adam Driver:

Dead ringer.

what are the quotable lines from each movie that made it into the public consciousness (some more than others)?

Aside from the Han force line; C3P0 (paraphrased?): You probably didn't recognize me because I have a different arm.

 

[vareon]

okay, i started asking this question to friends after watching the force awakens.

what are the quotable lines from each movie that made it into the public consciousness (some more than others)? each film of the original trilogy has at least one:

"I will finish what you started."
"It's true, all of it."

But both benefit from being in the trailer, and the originals benefit from many years of viewing. I think more will surface as time goes.

 

[Professor Lich]

Rey is well-acted and has some funny dialogue and I actually cared about her achieving things, which is more than I can say for other super special heroes like Neo from the Matrix.

That's what I really like about all the new main characters, they are characters / feel like real people. Poetry and Finn are somewhat similar, but they're different enough and it suits their bromance.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

I think the issue most people have with it is that's it's like a DBZ power-up. Getting her ass kicked then "Oh yeah! He said the Force, I can use that!" then the fight turns completely 1-sided the other way.

Just accepting and giving into the Force is not enough. It has never been enough. It takes years of dedication that Rey hasn't put in.

Mind you, Luke only got a few shots in on Vader in Empire because Vader was toying with him and deliberately avoiding killing him.

I don't buy it.

She was afraid, and then she used the force to not be afraid.

Movie established she could fight in the beginning. The movie also showed us she was afraid of Kylo because of the way she saw him in her visions.

Once she got over the fear she went back to her ass kicking survival skills self.

 

[Charles Foster Kane]

Just close your eyes lol. That's also how you can still watch Han shooting Greedo.

Not quite the same thing lol

 

[Opto]

I'm hella excited for more Finn adventures. I just hope everyone's realized they hit gold when Finn and Rey are a duo.

 

[Hydrus]

okay, i started asking this question to friends after watching the force awakens.

what are the quotable lines from each movie that made it into the public consciousness (some more than others)? each film of the original trilogy has at least one:

a new hope:
1. may the force be with you
2. help me obi-wan kenobi, you're my only hope
3. these aren't the droids you're looking for

empire strikes back:
1. i am your father
2. this deal is getting worse all the time
3. 'i love you' - 'i know'

return of the jedi:
1. you will pay the price for your lack of vision.

when you get to the prequels, people seem to remember them for being mostly corny or bad, like everything anakin or jar jar binks says in the phantom menace. ignoring those characters:

the phantom menace:
1. fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering

attack of the clones:
1. i don't like sand. it's rough and irritating, and it gets everywhere

revenge of the sith:
1. only sith deal in absolutes
2. you were the chosen one

i think the prequels and maybe everything outside of new hope and jedi might be stretching it though. so with that in mind, what do you think is the line, if there is any, that will be remembered from the force awakens, positively or negatively?

You missed some of the best ones:


" I find your lack of faith disturbing"

" I'm altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it further"

" Aren't you a little short to be a storm trooper"

" It's over Anakin, I have the high ground"

" You under estimate my power!"

" Anakin, your breaking my heart"

"Search your feelings, you know it to be true"

 

[eyeball_kid]

If Finn dies I riot. I know they won't because thankfully they'll go with the same mentality of george lucas, you can't market toys of finn if he dies.

Which is surprising that Abrams taking out all the fighter ships but X-Wings and TIE Fighters because "people might get confused" won against the Lucasfilm Merchandising arm. When I was a kid everyone wanted all the ships and everyone hoped they wouldn't get stuck with the Cloud Car.

edit: speaking of the ships, it would've been nice had the Rebels used the OT version of the X-Wings, to enforce the idea that Leia had to scrape together some junkyard fighters to form a secret Resistance against the First Order. The black X-Wings have got to be fairly new models.

 

[Brakke]

That's what I really like about all the new main characters, they are characters / feel like real people. Poetry and Finn are somewhat similar, but they're different enough and it suits their bromance.

"Poetry and Finn"

<3

 

[MattyG]

The set up for Rey being a pilot is identical to that of Luke Skywalker being a pilot: a single throwaway line.

Isn't it curious that we take Luke's ability at face value but are so skeptical with Rey's?

.

 

[Toxi]

What's the alternative term?

Actually explaining one's problems with a character in well-constructed manner instead of relying on a buzzword that doesn't even make much sense when you look at its original context?

 

[Luigi87]

Isn't it curious that we take Luke's ability at face value but are so skeptical with Rey's?

Clearly people being critical of women drivers!


Seriously though, I was totally fine with Rey being a good pilot. I saw her as a scavenger who kind of fangirl'd about the old stories, and would probably practice piloting imagining herself as an X-Wing pilot or similar. Just that scene for example where she puts on the old Rebel pilot helmet for little reason other than she could.

 

[Lunar15]

The fight scene was weird, but to me, the only real annoying part with Rey being a force master out of nowhere was the part where she uses the Mind Control on one of the storm troopers. No one had even done anything of the sort around her, to our knowledge, so for her to assume that she could even try that just felt out of nowhere.

The fight has a lot of explanations if you look. Her being a pilot is grounded in the fact that she was a scavenger and knew a lot about ships, as well as apparently having flown before. The only scene that just comes out of nowhere is the mind control scene. Make her use force pull or something, it would have achieved the same thing but with less suspension of belief.

 

[OricWindstar]

Of course it matters, it's canon and the writers knew that going in. Even without the PT we already knew it was a training device in ANH given the fact it wasn't shooting lethal blasts and Obiwan standing there and giving Luke advice. The only difference is that now we know it used to train younglings specifically.

As for the Death Star - well, for one that convient writing. Secondly, Luke claims to be capable of making the shot. Obiwan is there to help him make that shot in that extremely convenient weakspot.

We don't know jack about what the vision did to Rey aside from freaking her out. You can't build an argument on that, not a good one anyway.

Ren is subservient to Snoke to the point of being obsequious.

I guess won't get super into this since you're signing off, but I still disagree.

But, I will say: You say you can't make a good argument with what the vision did to Rey, but you make the assumption that Vader is toying with Luke the entire fight. That's never stated, but you make that assumption because of how Vader acts throughout. It's just as plausible to state that Rey, in a movie called The Force Awakens, is affected by the Force directly in that vision. She's crying afterwards and is scared as hell to touch it again.

 

[Spiritreaver]

I made a post about Poe and Finn on IG today and someone yelled at me about spoilers, lol.

I love me some #stormpilot

Ship, ship, ship.

 

[Ragnorok64]

Actually explaining one's problems with a character in well-constructed manner instead of relying on a buzzword that doesn't even make much sense when you look at its original context?

I'm not trying to read through a dozen dissertations when the term communicates the idea already.

 

[Toxi]

I'm hella excited for more Finn adventures. I just hope everyone's realized they hit gold when Finn and Rey are a duo.

I want to see Poe, Finn, and Rey as a trio interacting. Finn's friendships with both characters are already great?

 

[Professor Lich]

"Poetry and Finn"

<3

Damn, it must be fate or something. Didn't even see it.

 

[Charles Foster Kane]

The fight scene was weird, but to me, the only real annoying part with Rey being a force master out of nowhere was the part where she uses the Mind Control on one of the storm troopers. No one had even done anything of the sort around her, to our knowledge, so for her to assume that she could even try that just felt out of nowhere.

The fight has a lot of explanations if you look. That scene does not.

She had probably heard Jedis or the force could do that. It's not hard to imagine.

And like someone said. Mind control had been used.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Could be a race thing.

I really hope not because the movie also starred Oscar Isaac. Not sure if he's hispanic or from another country, but he sure as hell doesn't look like a white guy.

 

[Rastafarian42]

So many folks both here, my FB and in RLM were so focused with Rey and Kylo and I just feel nobody is really talking about Finn. I don't know if it's just because people didn't care about him or that he was enjoyable as comic relief and they didn't see him as more.

He was my favorite character and a lot of my friends felt the same and next to Kylo Ren he's the character I'm most looking forward to in the sequel.

 

[Toa TAK]

I made a post about Poe and Finn on IG today and someone yelled at me about spoilers, lol.

I love me some #stormpilot

Ship, ship, ship.

People ship in Star Wars?

Does this mean ChewbaccaxMaz is a thing?

 

[Jacksinthe]

The fight scene was weird, but to me, the only real annoying part with Rey being a force master out of nowhere was the part where she uses the Mind Control on one of the storm troopers. No one had even done anything of the sort around her, to our knowledge, so for her to assume that she could even try that just felt out of nowhere.

The fight has a lot of explanations if you look. That scene does not.

I just explained it a few posts above yours. Kylo already went in to get the map. She knows what getting in someone's head felt like. That's where she learned it - by having it done to her.

How do people keep missing this?

 

[OricWindstar]

I really hope not because the movie also starred Oscar Isaac. Not sure if he's hispanic or from another country, but he sure as hell doesn't look like a white guy.

He's Guatemalan.

 

[FUBAR McDangles]

Worst thing about Han dying is that we don't get any on-screen reuniting between Han and Luke.

 

[BraXzy]

So do people think EP 8 is going to have the same sort of split of screen time between Rey and Finn or is Rey going to be centre stage and Finn maybe pops up a little?

Wondering how they move forward from here.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

The fight scene was weird, but to me, the only real annoying part with Rey being a force master out of nowhere was the part where she uses the Mind Control on one of the storm troopers. No one had even done anything of the sort around her, to our knowledge, so for her to assume that she could even try that just felt out of nowhere.

The fight has a lot of explanations if you look. That scene does not.

Kylo dug in her head twice. Forest and interrogation room.

She has had to adapt her whole life to be able to live on her own.

I took it as her fight or flight taking over and doing to him what he was doing to her.

Plus don't they say women learn quicker than men.

 

[Sobriquet]

Which is surprising that Abrams taking out all the fighter ships but X-Wings and TIE Fighters because "people might get confused" won against the Lucasfilm Merchandising arm. When I was a kid everyone wanted all the ships and everyone hoped they wouldn't get stuck with the Cloud Car.

I might have missed them, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the speeder bike and the snowspeeder toys that are for sale weren't in the movie, right?

Also, Cloud Car rulz

 

[kaiju]

Yup. Big 2hr giant-size episode. Went up last night at http://fullofsith.com - last episode I'm on as a regular, last episode I produced.

Amazing episode. Also, props on name-dropping the NeoGAF forum.

That exuberant insight in podcast form will be missed

 

[Toxi]

I'm not trying to read through a dozen dissertations when the term communicates the idea already.

Then say you feel Rey is too perfect, which described your problems far more than "mAry Sue" actually does.

 

[MassiveNights]

The fact she could distinguish between the quad-whatever engine ship she originally wanted and the old Falcon also implied she had flying knowledge IMO, especially in contrast to Finn's lack of knowledge.

This is a non-argument for me.

 

[MisterHero]

Worst thing about Han dying is that we don't get any on-screen reuniting between Han and Luke.

Even worse, no Han and Lando

or Han and Dash

 

[Admiral Woofington]

He's Guatemalan.

there we go. I've seen two previous movies with him, including Ex Machina, and damn I'm glad he's shooting up. He's great.

 

[AgeEighty]

The fight scene was weird, but to me, the only real annoying part with Rey being a force master out of nowhere was the part where she uses the Mind Control on one of the storm troopers. No one had even done anything of the sort around her, to our knowledge, so for her to assume that she could even try that just felt out of nowhere.

She had just had mind powers used on her, and had managed to fight back. The expression on her face, in which you see the bulb kind of switch on that such a thing might be possible, combined with her first groping, failed attempt, felt very convincing to me.

It was Finn's ability to fend off Ren for awhile with the saber, despite no established Force abilities, that felt off to me.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

Worst thing about Han dying is that we don't get any on-screen reuniting between Han and Luke.

Agreed. I know it wouldn't have worked but it kills me that we couldn't get a moment with Han, Luke, and Leia together.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Worst thing about Han dying is that we don't get any on-screen reuniting between Han and Luke.

Hopefully flashbacks of what went wrong with Kylo will give us that.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

I prefer Created Player Rey vs Mary Sue.

 

[Korey]

The set up for Rey being a pilot is identical to that of Luke Skywalker being a pilot: a single throwaway line.

Yet another thing copied from the other movies.

 

[Ragnorok64]

Then say you feel Rey is too perfect, which described your problems far more than "mAry Sue" actually does.

So are you said that "too perfect" is your acceptable alternative to "mary sue?"

I can work with that.


Edit: Realized my posts make it seem like I'm more invested in this whole discussion than I actually am. Honestly just wanted to know what the best alternative for Mary Sue is.

 

[Toa TAK]

They could win with Finn either way.

Finn and Poe

Finn and Rey

Dude bounces off his co-stars.

 

[Sobriquet]

He's Guatemalan.

Raised in the US though, right?

 

[Veelk]

What, dude, no. This post is rife with inaccuracies.

- Luke claims to have shots similar to the one necessary to destroy the Death Star many times before, he just doesn't have the chance to prove it because Obiwan's voice appeares to guide him into using the Force

For the love of....Christ, dude, just because Luke says something doesn't mean it's applicable. Aside from the fact that a farm hick saying his shots at road kill are a good substitute for military experience, it's a different fighter under battle conditions. I don't care how hard Luke wants to tell me it was to shoot some womp rats when he was bored on saturday nights, he wouldn't have been able to make that shot without using the force, both just from understanding how much of a different condition an actual battlefield vs target practice run.

- Luke is at first incapable of using the Force to lift the X-Wing because he is doubtful of its power, he simply doesn't know enough, but he still needs practice to actually get there, pure belief isn't enough

Not according to Yoda, but, hey, what does he know...

- Luke lost to Vader because Vader was stronger, not because he didn't believe in himself

Exactly. And why was Vader stronger? Because Luke didn't believe in himself. When Luke did in RotJ, he got the better of him.

- Luke could face Vader because he believed in Vader, not because he believed in himself; during their fight he is fueled by anger and a will to protect Leia, it's almost purely physical; Luke isn't letting go off his emotions and the Force flow through him; he's scared and angry and he almosts slips into the Dark Side because he nearly gives in to the impulses that feed it, it's exactly what the Emperor wants to happen

I just watched the fight. Luke is far more sure of himself in how he handles his confrontation with Vader, and the reason he doesn't go all out is because he's sure he can bring his father over the the light. Now, his fall into the darkside is a concern for him, but not something that plagues his mind, atleast far less than Vader's doubts that maybe his son is right.

Disregarding just how speculative this is for a minute - what makes you think letting the Force is such an easy thing? Don't you think that if there was some kind of "I win" button that Obiwan would have used it against Vader in ANH? Qui-Gon against Maul? Yoda against Palpatine? All three of them were masters of the Force. They were wise and experienced users of the Force. Surely they could have done what Rey did if it was just a simple as "letting the Force in."

I don't count the prequels beccause they are such a mess of a series, but Obiwan did use it the whole time he was there. Obiwan 'lost' the fight because he let Vader get the hit in that would make him stronger than ever. The man was playing the long game, and happy to move on from the world, because his victory isn't a way of overpowering vader, but making the right moves so that he and the empire fall permanently. I don't think he predicted any of the future mind, he just...let go and trusted the force would find a way.

Obiwan won. He got stabbed and died and could not over power vader, and he won

Edit: also with Quigon vs Maul, I don't think there was an emotional conflict within the series paired with the physical fight. Nor with Yoda vs Palpatine. They operated on a level of emotional resonance with the force that isn't really applicable to the fights of fledgling force users like Rey and Ren fighting, or Luke.

 

[Toxi]

I might have missed them, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the speeder bike and the snowspeeder toys that are for sale weren't in the movie, right?

Also, Cloud Car rulz

That's actually a good point: Where the hell were the First Order snowspeeders?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Until told otherwise, I'm going to just assume Rey has had training and it was locked away. When Kylo Ren started peeling away the layers, it started unlocking her training.

And, if not, who really cares.