PerezDeCorcho
Member
I wish Jeff Bridges took the place of BB-8.
Star Wars VII doesn't respect the original trilogy (spoilers)
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WadiumArcadium
Member
Well they built it in the uncharted regions of the galaxy. Might be a Walmart there.
The One and Done
Member
uncelestial
Member
Maybe if Luke defeated Darth Vader in a lightsaber duel at the end, and didn't constantly almost die in awkward ways from such dire threats as sandpeople, random guys in bars, and trash monsters. Then yeah, Luke might be a Mary Sue.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
wait
are we still acting like the OP gives a shit about anyone else's opinions, let alone wants a debate with people that liked the film?
are we still acting like the OP gives a shit about anyone else's opinions, let alone wants a debate with people that liked the film?
PerezDeCorcho
Member
Shhhhhh...
A lot of the similarities are just window dressing. Yeah, Rey is the new Luke, but also a pretty different character; Kylo Ren is the new Vader, but an entirely new character; and Finn is new from the ground up.
Yeah, Corellia is basically Detroit now because they backed the wrong pony. Palpatine seemed like a sure thing though
A Link to the Past
Banned
Vader, the best star-pilot in the galaxy, didn't notice the Falcon and couldn't take Luke down.
heliosRAzi
Banned
He was mentally unstable after just cutting off his sons hand
You're right that it's not plot. And that it's missing information. But even other entities with little/no backstory (eg First Order) are given more than "the Resistance". Ie they're given a sentence ("this group do this, they came from this"). The Resistance is given no such sentence. They're just there.
However, also remember that people hate politics because Attack of the Clones was 90+% politics and it fucking sucked.
Also, politics can be entertaining when done right. Those films just did it badly. It's not the audience's fault the execution was utterly fluffed and may have influenced the making of TFA.
Remember there's a difference between plot and backstory.
Plot is only cause and effect events/decisions that lead you through the a story. In this case, what leads you scene-to-scene in the film.
They're not plot points because they're not really pertinent to the plot at all.
I refer to the Resistance thing as a plot hole because it is a catalyst for action a couple of times IIRC.
I agree with you and understand that to a certain extent, but it doesn't change the fact they are the least explained and most confusing thing in the story. They literally don't even get a sentence laying their origin/purpose out, unlike other new groups like the First Order. I've seen the film twice, and think I can remember most of the dialogue pretty well - but correct me if I'm wrong.
A Link to the Past
Banned
MHWilliams
Member
As other have explained, you need to treat the First Order/Resistance conflict as a border war, not a galaxy-spanning conflict. Here's the current official galaxy map.
Note, Hosnian Prime, the New Republic capital is around the Core and Starkiller Base Origin Point is well outside the Core.
Basically the New Republic is reigning governing body in the galaxy. The First Order is, for all intents and purposes, almost like a cult. They are analogous to the Nazis that fled to South America, according to Abrams.
So, imagine World War II (Rebellion-Empire War) has ended. Patton (Leia) is worried as hell that the Nazis in South America are going to be a problem, so he wants to go fight them. The U.S. and the rest of the Allies are busy with clean-up and actually running their countries and they think Reich leftovers aren't worth worrying about. But hey, Patton is still well-loved by the people for fighting the War and all, so the government gives him some token material and resources under the table to fight Nazis in South America. For them, it's a win-win. Old equipment is not their problem anymore and Patton is out of their hair politically. The Resistance is not the U.S. or Allied military.
Everyone else on that galaxy map didn't give a shit about the First Order, up until the point when the Starkiller wipes Hosnian Prime off the map and catches them flat-footed. (Destroying much of the NR's primary fleet, btw.) To go back to the analogy, that's those leftover Nazis dropping nukes on say Washington DC and New York.
And if you're wondering where Rey is probably going, the novelization talks about the fact that the Dark Side calls to her almost immediately when she dives into the Force at the end of TFA.
There's basically a lot of shit in the novelization that explains stuff in more detail, that I assume was cut out of the film due to pacing. These details do not inform the emotional stakes of the story, so Abrams and co left them out.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Emo dude in black with a red laser sword that wants to take over the galaxy for the dark side.
Totes new.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Tried to much to make it OT. It will forever be known as the Star Wars that copied Star Wars too much.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Even though Jedi did that first :v
Kylo Ren has completely different motivations than Vader, he operates completely different than Vader, and has a different arc than Vader (Vader is feeling corrupted by the Dark Side, and Kylo by the Light Side).
WadiumArcadium
Member
Alternatively, the film that got audiences invested in Star Wars again.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
You just won't let up, will you?
AlimNassor
Banned
You people literally want the fill to explain every.single. fucking. detail. in the first fucking movie. Star Wars is ruined because, not everything is perfect after the end? Did you expect the empire to just collapse and everyone be friends and peace be on the galaxy?
A Link to the Past
Banned
Why should I? It's a movie that starts in Tatooine and ends with the Death Star. Han Solo survived because they wanted to make more toys of him. We got Ewoks instead of Wookies because they wanted to make toys of them. Sorry that it's too inconvenient to point out how much harsher people are on this movie than compared to the actual problem movie.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
Some people would have preferred a different kind of conflict. Of course there's no such thing as permanent peace, but fuck, at least try to do something a little different, you know?
uncelestial
Member
Not because of Luke's amazing skills though; because of the deus ex Falcona.
BTW I'm not about to go to bat for the OT -- I honestly would rank my enjoyment of the OT as 6, 7, and 4 (out of ten, and respectively for IV, V, and VI) -- but Rey's shit was undercooked. I get why "Mary Sue" is a problematic term for that but she was off.
PerezDeCorcho
Member
You say people are too harsh, and I say people are too soft.Why should I? It's a movie that starts in Tatooine and ends with the Death Star. Han Solo survived because they wanted to make more toys of him. We got Ewoks instead of Wookies because they wanted to make toys of them. Sorry that it's too inconvenient to point out how much harsher people are on this movie than compared to the actual problem movie.
We can go on forever, but I'm not really up for it.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
A Star Wars movie that isn't bad will have gotten audiences invested again.
Point remains: they played it too safe and people are critical of them because of it. The movie, from just talking with people, is either prefaced or post scripted with "they copied too much of Star Wars".
heliosRAzi
Banned
Lol I'm not a Star Wars nerd at all.What kinda Star Wars nerd are you!? That was in Empire, yo!
Vader was just mad that Leia was getting on Lukes Force boner.
Jelly Rajah
Banned
The new Death Star/Starkiller base design being a bit reducitve and lazy is totally forgivable because they gave us the most clever design for a robot in Star Wars yet.
One film and BB-8 has already taken center stage as a Star Wars icon.
A Link to the Past
Banned
When you say "Likes" out loud in this context, it sounds like how someone with a strong Australian accent might say Luke's
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Side note: I actually thought that the First Order was going to be the good guys / new republic equivalent, with star destroyers and stormtrooper-like armor and all that. By the time the movie came out obviously I knew it wasn't, but yeah.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Nothing I typed is disputable. They are essentially the same dude, with the same end game, dressed in the same color, carrying the same color laser sword.
Both wanted to be the GOAT.
Their personality disposition is slightly different (but his grandfather was pretty emo too), sure but in the end, they are the same guy, different movie.
Also, they both throw temper tantrums: With Ren, he destroys consoles. With Vader it's Tusken villagers and choking out bridge commanders.
But sure, he's new.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Likes on me SheilaWhen you say "Likes" out loud in this context, it sounds like how someone with a strong Australian accent might say Luke's
Except the movie is receiving near universal praise and any prefacing or postscripting also includes that it is great in spite of that and people also love the ways in which it is different than the original. I think it was a movie intended to warm people up to the new Star Wars while giving them some nostalgia to butter them up for the new stuff.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Nothing I typed is disputable. They are essentially the same dude, with the same end game, dressed in the same color, carrying the same color laser sword.
Their personality disposition is slightly different (but his grandfather was pretty emo too), sure but in the end, they are the same guy, different movie.
Also, they both throw temper tantrums: With Ren, he destroys consoles. With Vader it's Tusken villagers and choking out bridge commanders.
But sure, he's new.
Vader is demonstrated to show nothing but contempt for anyone who even annoys him. At no point does Kylo Ren resort to killing someone for so petty a reason. That in and of itself is a distinct reason. We even see an opportunity where he could have killed someone, and he did not.
uncelestial
Member
If the internet were 20 years old and as culture-permeating in 1977 as it is today, Star Wars would've gotten plenty of backtalk -- online. Then, it still would've made a shit ton of money, just like TFA (or, as some people know it, the highest-grossing domestic film of all time).Why should I? It's a movie that starts in Tatooine and ends with the Death Star. Han Solo survived because they wanted to make more toys of him. We got Ewoks instead of Wookies because they wanted to make toys of them. Sorry that it's too inconvenient to point out how much harsher people are on this movie than compared to the actual problem movie.
Frankly I wouldn't worry about defending TFA's honor from online critics. It won.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
It was poorly explained but honestly I don't remember what I knew from reading some per-release materials and what i knew from the movie itself. Someone will have to go through it with a fine toothed comb.
ryutaro's mama
Member
So the severity of the tantrums he throws makes him different?
EDIT: Also, Lor San Tekka would disagree with you about Ren killing someone over something petty. Well, he would but he's dead.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
What does universal praise have to do with a cheap knock-off story? You's not making sense!
Yeah, Corellia is basically Detroit now because they backed the wrong pony. Palpatine seemed like a sure thing though
Dude no joke a Mon Calamari Corporate Espionage stealth game or RPG or something is everything I've ever dreamed of.
As other have explained, you need to treat the First Order/Resistance conflict as a border war, not a galaxy-spanning conflict. Here's the current official galaxy map.
Note, Hosnian Prime, the New Republic capital is around the Core and Starkiller Base Origin Point is well outside the Core.
Basically the New Republic is reigning governing body in the galaxy. The First Order is, for all intents and purposes, almost like a cult. They are analogous to the Nazis that fled to South America, according to Abrams.
Sure, it's just that the concept of borders or fringes is kind of weird since travel for ships and for planet-killing coronal plasma bolts is apparently instantaneous. So like. The Republic Fleet apparently could've interceded against The Order conquering Finn's birth planet if they'd cared to; that wasn't a distance problem that was a will-to-fight problem or a strategic call. Like, in a universe where weapons can strike your capital and all your holdings from literally anywhere in the Galaxy, it doesn't make sense to pretend there are borders. America and Russia didn't just shrug at each during the Cold War, they recognized that each presented an existential threat to the other despite being on opposite sides of the Earth. Where's the Outter Rim equivalent to the Cuban Missile Crisis?
I don't think the movie needs to answer that question to work, but I do think that question is super interesting and fun. You kind of just have to shrug at the space geography in this movie. It obviously doesn't care about it, so we shouldn't. It's a little weak to say the Order is outside Republic influence but then to demonstrate that the Republic is well within Order operational capacity, but we just gotta roll with that.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Looking at the script, the political relationships between the Resistance and the Republic and the First Order don't get mentioned until Hux wants to show off his big ball. Then a couple of mentions that without the Republic's backing, the Resistance is weaker.
It's all poorly explained.
A Link to the Past
Banned
My point is not so much that TFA shouldn't be criticized, more that I wish OT fans could look inward :v
Not the severity, the direction in which it is aimed. If they really, truly just wanted to make Darth Vader 2.0, there is no reason why he wouldn't kill with reckless abandon like Vader did. Shit, Vader likely would have noticed Finn and killed him right there. Kylo Ren is depicted as immature and arrogant, and unlike Anakin, is thoroughly bested and/or undressed multiple times, including by a captive individual (to the point where he was clearly struggling just from her words). Even with Anakin's rage-out, he was never this emotionally weak.
EDIT: Wait, what? Lor San Tekka was killed because he was an enemy captive who refused to comply with Kylo Ren's demands. Did you watch the movie?
ryutaro's mama
Member
Read mah edit.
Also, ask those Jedi recruits if Ren kills for...oh, nevermind.
Plus, we know that Ren's goal is to be better than Vader so in the next movie, don't be surprised if you see ya man loping off some heads.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
It's explained just not a good explanation. You take it for what it is and give it a rating. The First Order's existence is questionable, probably make more sense if they give a backstory on Snoke like he's some senator playing puppet master with the republic so they don't necessarily think they're a threat.
You pointed out that people are being critical of it because it's too similar to Star Wars and the universal praise belies that. Critical implies that it is problematic rather than a minor ding at best.
This wrap it up very nicely. I would add that now, they are like a new "Anakin" -Rey's. She has to be related to someone very strong in the force. They are theories (fans) that say that the accent of Rey's answer the question about his parents and there is a new "maverick" or two, Finn and Poe. My guess, Finn would be the new Han Solo and Poe will be the leader of the rebelion when Leia dies in ep VIII. Yes she is going to die, the same that Luke.
The only thing that drag me out is how shitty a Jedi Luke is. He was the padawan of Yoda and he could not defeat an angry teenager (Ben) and Snooke? So he ran off like a cry baby for solitude and confort... how he gets there? in a X-Wing? Why he left R2-D2? goddamit J.J. So many questions, so little answers. Mark my words, ep. VIII will star ..."A decade ago the First Order was defeated by the rebellion but now...."
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Yeah, you can be critical of a product and still enjoy it. Praise doesn't necessarily mean quality. Like, it's a good film and all but it does have flaws.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I think critical means that they are critiquing it based on their opinions and experiences.
ryutaro's mama
Member
What a concept. :O
Yeah totally. I'm both willing to roll with the First Order as given and also kind of frustrated at how poorly it's motivated. It's presented as premise instead of as story.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Vader literally killed his own men for failing. Even Konami knew to put disappointing employees on janitorial work instead of killing them.
EDIT: Actually that's speculation on my part, I don't know that Konami hasn't killed an employee before.
EDIT: Actually that's speculation on my part, I don't know that Konami hasn't killed an employee before.
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