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[Michael F. Assbender]

So did we expect life to be perfect after ROTJ?

It makes perfect sense that Luke would fail as a teacher, when he basically disobeyed or abandoned his training because of emotional reasons.

Han was a hero, but he is still Han. Kylo was a problem not even Luke could handle. Han not having a guaranteed way of fixing the problem, he did what he normally does. He runs from the problem.

The force is all about balance. Does balance=force or does balance=dark and light.
If it's dark and light, then it doesn't matter what Luke did, the dark side was always going to return.

The First Order was inevitable. Not every high ranking official was on the Death Star and not every Star Destroyer was destroyed after the battle. There were bound to be supporters or ranking officials trying to rebuild like Marvel's Hydra.

Life goes on and although we wish they could live happily ever after, it's not "realistic", especially if we want to believe these characters are real.



this too

Yeah, I never understood this criticism either. As if life shouldn't have continued forward for our heroes after ROTJ. They should have just froze there, on the moon of Endor, and when we joined them all these years later, it'd be as if we never left.

Time marches forward. Life presents new challenges and things don't always work out as we had originally planned. TFA presents this fact, and I appreciate that. Others are free to feel otherwise, but I can't join them on that journey.

 

[Kinyou]

As I understand it a lot of people were quite unhappy about WWII breaking out, and had a lot of complaints about it in general.

People are generally sick of sequels. And Germany being the baddy again? Ugh, very original.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

Yeah, I never understood this criticism either. As if life shouldn't have continued forward for our heroes after ROTJ. They should have just froze there, on the moon of Endor, and when we joined them all these years later, it'd be as if we never left.

Time marches forward. Life presents new challenges and things don't always work out as we had originally planned. TFA presents this fact, and I appreciate that. Others are free to feel otherwise, but I can't join them on that journey.

They could easily invent new conflicts. All they did was open the old one. It's boring.

 

[Varna]

I haven't read a lot of the replies but I do kind of feel like this movie just kind of rushed/hand-waved a lot story aspects to get to a very specific scenario. It's a very unflattering comparison but it really reminds me of RotS and how everything kind of just happens to get everything nice and ready for the ANH.

 

[Xe4]

TFA making the previous trilogy pointless is a complaint I hate. Was WWI pointless cause we got WWII?

WWI was pointless... hell of a lot more pointless than WWII I mean, there was a ton of stuff that could have been done after WWI to prevent a second world war, but very little of it happened.

So that's not the best argument you could have used...

 

[Branduil]

It would seem to me that for most of the galaxy, the years between RotJ and TFA were actually pretty peaceful. There's a new Republic with a demilitarized and pacifist leadership. Leia is still involved with the Resistance fighting the First Order because she chooses to be, not because she has no choice.

Obviously the First Order blasting the Republic capital to hell changes things, but a movie called Star Wars wouldn't be too fun without star wars.

 

[MechaX]

Naw but do we expect that all 3 of the Core characters will be worse off than they were at the end of ROTJ? I certainly didn't.

Makes all their personal gains in the OT almost worthless. Reminds me of how pissed I was when in Alien3, the opening of the film immediately kills of Newt and Hicks, erasing all the work and emotion that Ripley invested in Aliens protecting them.

Similar thing for me, all the work that Luke, Han and Leia did is undone because of, um, reasons.

Luke, Han, and Leia did bring down the Empire to a lunatic fringe group (First Order) and a democratic Republic now runs the galaxy as intended. Hell, the Empire imploded harder between ROTJ and TFA than in the EU. As far as we know right now, only Luke's Jedi Order really backfired (assuming the flashback is even accurate). Han and Leia have progressed in some points (and have even grown in some ways).

Absolutely nothing was undone, the field just changed slightly as time progressed.

 

[FartOfWar]

Suggesting that this film, one of the most reverential, respectful takes on Star Wars that could have been made, is somehow being "disrespectful," for the specious reasoning that fictional characters aren't as personally happy as you'd like them to be in a fictional universe that lives under the word "WARS" in its title, is kinda ridiculous, as is the idea this two-sentence objection needed to be a 1500+ post worthy of its own thread.

Petty and possessive. "Guys, I'm the one who makes the Star Wars threads. That's me. I'm Star Wars guy. We discuss Star Wars on my terms. Staaaaar Woooohrs"

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Funny, I saw quite a lot of CG in The Force Awakens.

There's a massive difference between "quite a lot" of CG and "damn near nothing but" CG. Seriously, there's no comparison here. The CG in TFA accentuated scenes. The CG in the prequels often was the scene.

But since you mention it, the prequels did at least adhere to the same filmmaking techniques Lucas used in his classic trilogy, which were themselves at the time deliberately evocative of much older movies and short films.

Abrams, for all his claims of chasing up Kurosawa, Ford and Hawks like Lucas did, is still using his signature full-frame close-ups, shaky cams, flashbacks and so-on, in addition to a postmodern writing style which favours glib self-reference almost to the point of parody, rather than Lucas' fairytale sincerity and naivety.

So basically, Abrams brought Star Wars to the modern age and Lucas failed to evolve.

I wonder how those two methods worked out for their respective post-OT Star Wars movies...

No, but it would be nice to have had a Star Wars sequel which didn't hit the galactic political reset button with the thinnest of excuses so the stage is set for an almost identical situation to the OT.

Because having nefarious groups attempt to claim power in a sudden vacuum created at the fall of a dictatorship/empire never happens. /s

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

They could easily invent new conflicts. All they did was open the old one. It's boring.

But that's what Star Wars became after the first movie: a family drama. Everything from the prequels to Episode IX is tied to the Skywalker clan and their friends.

I don't see how TFA is committing some sin by sticking to what Star Wars is all about.

Edit: Sorry for double post.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Luke, Han, and Leia did bring down the Empire to a lunatic fringe group (First Order) and a democratic Republic now runs the galaxy as intended. Hell, the Empire imploded harder between ROTJ and TFA than in the EU. As far as we know right now, only Luke's Jedi Order really backfired (assuming the flashback is even accurate). Han and Leia have progressed in some points (and have even grown in some ways).

That happened big picture at the end of ROTJ and the Republic formed shortly thereafter.

At the End of ROTJ:

Leia, now a Commander, was victorious and learned she was Force sensitive, opening up all sorts of exciting possibilities.

Han, no longer a smuggler, was now a General and helped topple the Empire.

Luke redeemed his father and brought balance to the Force.

Absolutely nothing was undone, the field just changed slightly as time progressed.

Absolutely nothing was undone, eh?

As for the Start of TFA, let's review:

Leia is back to commanding a small Resistance group on Not Yavin 4. She doesn't seem to use the Force for much at all.

Han is back to being a smuggler.

Luke failed at starting a new Jedi Order, his nephew fell to the dark side and slaughtered his pupils. Then Luke left for...reasons.

How are any of them improved over the last 30 years? How was nothing undone? It's like a HS reunion where the most popular kids in class made no real progression in life.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Right but the existence of WWII didn't undo the lessons of, or sacrifices in, WWI.

Ok but WWI wasn't a story, it was a series of events, in real life. A work of fiction is consciously created by one or more people. Generally speaking you try not to trivialize the plot of the previous works in making a sequel. A comparison to a world war is extremely silly. Next time a Dragon Age 2 thread comes up and people complain about reused environments I'm going to say "Oh yeah, well in World War I they had FIVE battles of Ypres and you didn't see anyone complain that they were getting too samey!"

I think the core complaint here is not that the empire is still a threat - the EU pulled off the Imperial remnant and stuff and it was not uniformly bad. The idea of the First Order and a galactic ceasefire isn't bad either. But in Ep 7 they wasted no time reestablishing the same status quo as before, plucky underdog rebels fighting the all powerful empire blah blah. I'm praying they actually show the Republic forces being in a position of military strength in the next movie, considering that the First Order is supposed to be a strip of the inner rim and some uninhabited / formerly unexplored planets adjacent to it, with the Republic controlling the lion's share of the known galaxy. Like a shift of gears away from daring commando do-or-die missions and more towards actual battles and such.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

WWI was pointless... hell of a lot more pointless than WWII I mean, there was a ton of stuff that could have been done after WWI to prevent a second world war, but very little of it happened.

So that's not the best argument you could have used...

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he was asking if WWI was pointless. Anyone with a passing knowledge of its causes and outcomes could tell you it was. I think he was asking if WWI was pointless because WWII happened. Which it wasn't. WWII didn't undo the horrors of WWI, or make the sacrifices and pain any less meaningful on a human level.

 

[kame-sennin]

JJ needs to sit through the master works of david lean before ever trying to achieve anything of scope again.

No he doesn't. I have no interest in seeing Clarence of Saudi Arabia.

 

[Brakke]

It would seem to me that for most of the galaxy, the years between RotJ and TFA were actually pretty peaceful.

Tell that to Finn's parents.

Spoiler

Oh you can't. ;_;

 

[Glass Shark]

for the love of god why do people keep saying Rey can do shit "out of nowhere" when it's clearly implied she has some past with the Force

GOD

 

[hipsterpants]

Watching (well half-watching anyway) ROTJ again it definitely stuck out to me how TFA made it feel pointless. I mean Lucas meddling yada yada but the ending of the film is that the Empire was defeated, everyone is celebrating, etc. But then it turns out that the Republic was full of fucking idiots, the Empire still owned like half the galaxy, and the dark side is more powerful than ever backed by some Voldemort looking dude. It's honestly pretty depressing lol.

 

[munchie64]

Ok but WWI wasn't a story, it was a series of events, in real life. A work of fiction is consciously created by one or more people. Generally speaking you try not to trivialize the plot of the previous works in making a sequel. A comparison to a world war is extremely silly. Next time a Dragon Age 2 thread comes up and people complain about reused environments I'm going to say "Oh yeah, well in World War I they had FIVE battles of Ypres and you didn't see anyone complain that they were getting too samey!"

I think the core complaint here is not that the empire is still a threat - the EU pulled off the Imperial remnant and stuff and it was not uniformly bad. The idea of the First Order and a galactic ceasefire isn't bad either. But in Ep 7 they wasted no time reestablishing the same status quo as before, plucky underdog rebels fighting the all powerful empire blah blah. I'm praying they actually show the Republic forces being in a position of military strength in the next movie, considering that the First Order is supposed to be a strip of the inner rim and some uninhabited / formerly unexplored planets adjacent to it, with the Republic controlling the lion's share of the known galaxy. Like a shift of gears away from daring commando do-or-die missions and more towards actual battles and such.

Jeez, I was just trying to make a comparison people could easily understand lol

Personally I think it fits quite well. The past is always effecting the future.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he was asking if WWI was pointless. Anyone with a passing knowledge of its causes and outcomes could tell you it was. I think he was asking if WWI was pointless because WWII happened. Which it wasn't. WWII didn't undo the horrors of WWI, or make the sacrifices and pain any less meaningful on a human level.

You're 100% right.

 

[Ishida]

Ok but WWI wasn't a story, it was a series of events, in real life. A work of fiction is consciously created by one or more people. Generally speaking you try not to trivialize the plot of the previous works in making a sequel. A comparison to a world war is extremely silly. Next time a Dragon Age 2 thread comes up and people complain about reused environments I'm going to say "Oh yeah, well in World War I they had FIVE battles of Ypres and you didn't see anyone complain that they were getting too samey!"

I think the core complaint here is not that the empire is still a threat - the EU pulled off the Imperial remnant and stuff and it was not uniformly bad. The idea of the First Order and a galactic ceasefire isn't bad either. But in Ep 7 they wasted no time reestablishing the same status quo as before, plucky underdog rebels fighting the all powerful empire blah blah. I'm praying they actually show the Republic forces being in a position of military strength in the next movie, considering that the First Order is supposed to be a strip of the inner rim and some uninhabited / formerly unexplored planets adjacent to it, with the Republic controlling the lion's share of the known galaxy. Like a shift of gears away from daring commando do-or-die missions and more towards actual battles and such.

I don't really have many issues with the movie in general, but what you say really bothers me. Indeed, the First Order gaining so much power was pretty weird.

The usual response I get to this, is that the New Republic just didn't consider the First Order to be a threat, or that "they didn't want to escalate into another war with them"

Like, are you for real? Those guys are the remnants of the evil Empire that had the entire galaxy on a brutal and bloodstained chokehold for around 20 years. So the New Republic gets news that the remnants of such Empire are regrouping and they just think: "No big deal, no need to go fight them at all?".

One would think the New Republic would do their absolute BEST to try and prevent the Empire from coming back, even if the new guys are just angry youths they can do some real damage. TFA really paints the New Republic as a very weak, ignorant and just careless organization that didn't learn history. It makes the victory at the end of ROTJ not seem as... Good...

 

[MHWilliams]

Sure, it's just that the concept of borders or fringes is kind of weird since travel for ships and for planet-killing coronal plasma bolts is apparently instantaneous. So like. The Republic Fleet apparently could've interceded against The Order conquering Finn's birth planet if they'd cared to; that wasn't a distance problem that was a will-to-fight problem or a strategic call. Like, in a universe where weapons can strike your capital and all your holdings from literally anywhere in the Galaxy, it doesn't make sense to pretend there are borders. America and Russia didn't just shrug at each during the Cold War, they recognized that each presented an existential threat to the other despite being on opposite sides of the Earth. Where's the Outter Rim equivalent to the Cuban Missile Crisis?

I don't think the movie needs to answer that question to work, but I do think that question is super interesting and fun. You kind of just have to shrug at the space geography in this movie. It obviously doesn't care about it, so we shouldn't. It's a little weak to say the Order is outside Republic influence but then to demonstrate that the Republic is well within Order operational capacity, but we just gotta roll with that.

Yeah, hyperspace is a great story tool, but it makes meaningful geography in space quite difficult.

TFA really paints the New Republic as a very weak, ignorant and just careless organization that didn't learn history. It makes the victory at the end of ROTJ not seem as... Good...

Which is largely the point of Hux' extended speech in the books:

Today is the end! The end of a government incapacitated by corruption! The end of an illegitimate regime that acquiesces to disorder! At this very moment, in a system far from here, the New Republic lives and wheezes, staggering onward, depraved and ineffectual and unable in any way to support the citizenry it claims to serve. Meanwhile a host of systems are left to wither and die — without aid, without care, without hope. Drowning in tis own decadence, the New Republic ignores them, unaware that these are its final moments.

 

[APZonerunner]

Ok but WWI wasn't a story, it was a series of events, in real life. A work of fiction is consciously created by one or more people. Generally speaking you try not to trivialize the plot of the previous works in making a sequel. A comparison to a world war is extremely silly. Next time a Dragon Age 2 thread comes up and people complain about reused environments I'm going to say "Oh yeah, well in World War I they had FIVE battles of Ypres and you didn't see anyone complain that they were getting too samey!"

I think the core complaint here is not that the empire is still a threat - the EU pulled off the Imperial remnant and stuff and it was not uniformly bad. The idea of the First Order and a galactic ceasefire isn't bad either. But in Ep 7 they wasted no time reestablishing the same status quo as before, plucky underdog rebels fighting the all powerful empire blah blah. I'm praying they actually show the Republic forces being in a position of military strength in the next movie, considering that the First Order is supposed to be a strip of the inner rim and some uninhabited / formerly unexplored planets adjacent to it, with the Republic controlling the lion's share of the known galaxy. Like a shift of gears away from daring commando do-or-die missions and more towards actual battles and such.

The idea that a new Republic has a military but still sits by while children are abducted to be brainwashed into becoming stormtroopers(?!?!) is absolute insanity to me; I can barely buy it at all. Maybe if they were practically military-free borderline pacifists, scared off from conflict by the history of the empire etc, I could get that - the first order could rise out of that. But then we have talk (and visuals) of them having full 'fleets' and 'secretly supporting' Leia's resistance.

I understand that they're scared to go down the actual more typical 'Star War' route because it smacks of the prequels, but damn. This particular part of the whole thing doesn't feel right to me at all.

 

[Daingurse]

TFA to the OT is OT to Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers.

So, sure, sure. It's original.

Add Dune as well to the OT. Just read the first two books, this shit had to have influenced Star Wars to some extent. Great shit though.

 

[Neff]

So basically, Abrams brought Star Wars to the modern age and Lucas failed to evolve.

Precisely. People wanted Star Wars to essentially stop being Star Wars in all but name, and Lucas was crucified for not doing that.

Because having nefarious groups attempt to claim power in a sudden vacuum created at the fall of a dictatorship/empire never happens. /s

The Empire was created by an absurdly elaborate chain of events. The suspiciously similar First Order is created by a few lines of dialogue despite the death of the Empire's architect and ruler, its right hand man, most of its fleet, its doomsday weapon, the restoration of the Republic, and the liberation of Coruscant. And they're somehow able to build a weapon out of a planet unchecked, undeterred, and the only people at liberty to stop them is an underdog 'neutral' 'secret' resistance.

It's all a little harder to suspend disbelief for, is all.

 

[Xe4]

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he was asking if WWI was pointless. Anyone with a passing knowledge of its causes and outcomes could tell you it was. I think he was asking if WWI was pointless because WWII happened. Which it wasn't. WWII didn't undo the horrors of WWI, or make the sacrifices and pain any less meaningful on a human level.

I mean it kind of did. No disrespect for anyone who fought in WWI, but people to this day remember WWII far more vividly than WWI and it's not because it was a newer war.

When WWI happened, it was THE Great War, literally. People had never seen anything like it happen before, people never thought something like it would ever happen again.

And then WWII happened. I'm not going to state WWI wasnt a brutal war, it was. The horrible acts committed and genocide in Armenia was awful and beyond description.

But WWII had the Holocaust. And it had the Rape of Nanking, and the fire bombing of Dresden and of Tokyo, and so many other cities, and the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And most importantly, WWII had, by some estimates, six times the casualty rate of WWI.

And the thing is, unlike WWII which was set in place after WWI (or at least it is to the eyes of the public) WWI will always be the avoidable war that killed millions, and WWII will be the Allies vs evil in the eyes of the general public.

Just my view on it though. Doesn't mean I agree with the argument used about Star Wars eithe : p.

 

[ZehDon]

...So basically, Abrams brought Star Wars to the modern age and Lucas failed to evolve...

Ironically, Abrams is the one accused of remaking an earlier film

 

[José Mourinho]

Probably already been said assuming my understanding is correct but with regards to Luke running away, isn't that exactly what Yoda did at the end of Episode III? Things got hot and the few remaining Jedi -- if there even were more boyond Kenobi and Yoda, I don't know -- went their seperate ways and sat on their hands for like 20 years. Yoda kicked it on Degobah whilst Ben practiced his force ghost antics and kept an eye on Luke.

 

[VendettaRed07]

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you choose to end your story."

I thought they respected the OT just fine. As has been said I don't think the all is well ending at the end of ROTJ was ever even supposed to be a forever happy ending. Luke having issues training a new gen of Jedi and leading a similar life to Obi-wan in isolation looking for answers through the force makes sense.

Leia and Han, it makes sense they wouldn't work out. Or that Han wouldn't be a good father. I mean did anyone think Solo would ever be a good settled down family man?

I wish they explained how powerful the First Order were. I think with the Republic in power, shouldn't they be more like a terrorist group? I hope they find a way to clarify that in the next movies

 

[Cat Party]

Not sure if this was posted before, but lightsabers are more than just tools for the Jedi. Each lightsaber is unique in the sense that they are built by the Jedi wielding it. It takes a long time for a Jedi to create their first lightsaber, and one of the main components of it, the crystal, is imbued with the force itself (iirc, someone correct me if I'm wrong). If it's one criticism that should be made of Luke's lightsaber in the film, then we should be questioning why it was the blue one that was lost in Cloud City as opposed to the green one at the end of Return of the Jedi.

I believe it is explained in a new book that Maz has the lightsaber Luke lost on Bespin, not the one he rebuilt.

 

[labx]

Did I call them good films?

But you are comparing one good film nonetheless of your opinion, with other that is objectively bad. You said so, visually the film is worth watching... because recapture the magic. Your words, not mine.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

I think the core complaint here is not that the empire is still a threat - the EU pulled off the Imperial remnant and stuff and it was not uniformly bad. The idea of the First Order and a galactic ceasefire isn't bad either. But in Ep 7 they wasted no time reestablishing the same status quo as before, plucky underdog rebels fighting the all powerful empire blah blah. I'm praying they actually show the Republic forces being in a position of military strength in the next movie, considering that the First Order is supposed to be a strip of the inner rim and some uninhabited / formerly unexplored planets adjacent to it, with the Republic controlling the lion's share of the known galaxy. Like a shift of gears away from daring commando do-or-die missions and more towards actual battles and such.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the main beef of the OP that this movie doesn't respect the OT? Yet what you describe sounds almost like respect to the point of mirroring the OT.

I agree that TFA left a lot of questions unanswered about the power structure in this galaxy. But as it's only the first part of a planned trilogy that's already been mapped out, I give them the benefit of the doubt that they'll get there in due time. After ESB, I didn't fret that the movie ended with Vader and Palpitine still in power because I knew they had more story to tell.

Believe me, if the next two movies don't answer some key questions raised by TFA, I'll be on the front lines shitting on my Boba Fett with Kung Fu Grip action figures and mailing the caked plastic pieces to Walt Disney's grandkids or whoever (

Spoiler

I don't actually own action figures

). But I need to wait before I can go from "questioning but optimistic" to "this film is shit and doesn't respect Star Wars."

Spoiler

Which isn't to say others shouldn't hold that opinion. I just respectfully disagree. For now.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

But that's what Star Wars became after the first movie: a family drama. Everything from the prequels to Episode IX is tied to the Skywalker clan and their friends.

I don't see how TFA is committing some sin by sticking to what Star Wars is all about.

Edit: Sorry for double post.

That's like saying Into Darkness isn't a rehash because the movie has to be about the Enterprise and its crew, right?

 

[munchie64]

That's like saying Into Darkness isn't a rehash because the movie has to be about the Enterprise and its crew, right?

Into Darkness isn't a rehash. It's not great or anything but taking like 5 minutes from Wrath of Khan ain't it's big sin.

 

[Haines]

Its s movie not history

 

[The One and Done™]

Its s movie not history

Oh crap....

 

[shoreu]

Lightsabers often absorb lots of energy/ force from their first master. It is an extension of them. It can even influence all those who hold it after the original. See Exar Kim's lightsaber for instances of corruption via lightsaber.

I kinda agree with you on the force. I don't like how Rey or Kylo were handled nor the force but she's a skywalker so w/e (I guess that is an excuse)

I love the Force Awakens, and yet I somehow agree with just about all of your points. I think Luke gets the largest pass here though. He brought balance back to the force, but the Jedi aren't a police group. It isn't his job to shape governments, to fight oppressors, etc. The Jedi are not peacekeepers. And I don't think he has given up on the Jedi. In fact, he is looking for the first Jedi temple for some sort of knowledge. More than likely something to help the Jedi in the end.

What the Jedi are peacekeepers thats who they are

 

[munchie64]

Its s movie not history

But it's s long time ago.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Precisely. People wanted Star Wars to essentially stop being Star Wars in all but name, and Lucas was crucified for not doing that.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. Lucas was criticized precisely because the prequels were only Star Wars in name. Everything else felt wooden and artificial.

Most criticism against TFA is that it's too slavish in its devotion to feeling like the OT, in style and in story.

The Empire was created by an absurdly elaborate chain of events. The suspiciously similar First Order is created by a few lines of dialogue despite the death of the Empire's architect and ruler, its right hand man, most of its fleet, its doomsday weapon, the restoration of the Republic, and the liberation of Coruscant. And they're somehow able to build a weapon out of a planet unchecked, undeterred, and the only people at liberty to stop them is an underdog 'neutral' 'secret' resistance.

It's all a little harder to suspend disbelief for, is all.

As I said to *mod whose name escapes me*, I agree there are lots of things they need to answer in the next two films. However, since TFA is only one part of a massive story they've already mapped out, I'm personally okay with them taking time to flesh things out. After the quagmire of political nonsense that was the prequels, JJ needed to hit the ground running with this film, and couldn't take a chance introducing more political "intrigue." Hopefully, they saved that for the sequels.

However, I have to disagree with your assertions about the Empire's creation vs The First Order's. If the novel is anything to be believed (and as will surely be fleshed out in the rest of the trilogy), Snoke was behind the Emperor and Vader, and is now with Ren's Order. So it's not as if the Order just formed from the Empire after its architect was killed. Its true architect is still there, lingering in the shadows.

 

[borborygmus]

The movie follows the JJ Abrams and Damon Lindelof pattern of spamming nonsensical things hard enough that you suspend your disbelief about the questionable thing that just happened, because another questionable thing is about to happen and you'd like to keep up. You're sure it all adds up in the end so you enjoy the ride.

But in the end it doesn't add up, itsfuckingnothing.gif. Many won't look back, or won't care because to them it's all about what they felt at the time of watching the movie. And that's ok, feel free to love the movie; I won't hold it against you.

For others, like me, I want to see the receipts. I'm not talking about minutiae, I'm talking about major asspulls, of which there are dozens in this movie.

So I think the movie is absolutely horrid and completely vapid. Abrams eschewed actually making this movie for real. The OP is correct that it disrespects the OT, but it's also a massive ripoff of the major story beats of Ep 4 at the same time. Embarrassing.

 

[Chet Rippo]

More importantly, where the hell did they find Anakin's old Lightsaber?

 

[WrenchNinja]

So the severity of the tantrums he throws makes him different?

EDIT: Also, Lor San Tekka would disagree with you about Ren killing someone over something petty. Well, he would but he's dead.

Who?

 

[Brakke]

Who?

That's the name of the "old ally" who gives Poe the map at the beginning.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It would seem to me that for most of the galaxy, the years between RotJ and TFA were actually pretty peaceful. There's a new Republic with a demilitarized and pacifist leadership. Leia is still involved with the Resistance fighting the First Order because she chooses to be, not because she has no choice.

Obviously the First Order blasting the Republic capital to hell changes things, but a movie called Star Wars wouldn't be too fun without star wars.

And for everyone demanding a new conflict U think we're gonna get it. The FO is weakened having lost Starkiller base and exposed themselves but the Republic has been decimated. For the first time in Star Wars history we might have a total chaotic piwer vacuum

 

[WrenchNinja]

That's the name of the "old ally" who gives Poe the map at the beginning.

I didn't even know that dude even had a name.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the main beef of the OP that this movie doesn't respect the OT? Yet what you describe sounds almost like respect to the point of mirroring the OT.

There are a lot of people ITT and they have all sorts of different beefs. I was referring to people who say that it made the OT irrelevant.

And for everyone demanding a new conflict U think we're gonna get it. The FO is weakened having lost Starkiller base and exposed themselves but the Republic has been decimated. For the first time in Star Wars history we might have a total chaotic piwer vacuum

Was the republic decimated? If it really does control the majority of the galaxy, that means thousands of star systems. They got one blast off that destroyed what looked like several bodies in a solar system or a couple of planets in different ones maybe? Did I misinterpret the scene?

 

[John Harker]

Naw but do we expect that all 3 of the Core characters will be worse off than they were at the end of ROTJ? I certainly didn't.

Makes all their personal gains in the OT almost worthless. Reminds me of how pissed I was when in Alien3, the opening of the film immediately kills of Newt and Hicks, erasing all the work and emotion that Ripley invested in Aliens protecting them.

Similar thing for me, all the work that Luke, Han and Leia did is undone because of, um, reasons.

Do all of your problems get solved forever after you win at something once?

Imagine the whole galaxy!

Also imagine 34 years later, being a different person, and facing a similar challenge? Maybe you run from it, maybe you try and stand up to it and die. Maybe you're alone this time because you drove your life away. Either way it's a provocative thought.

Also don't forget you're comparing the story arch if THERE MOVIES to the world building of one film, FYI.


Damn what a good movie.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

That's like saying Into Darkness isn't a rehash because the movie has to be about the Enterprise and its crew, right?

Totally different situation. The Enterprise and its crew members came part and parcel as part of the reboot. It wouldn't be a reboot without them. It'd be a whole new series. Also, Trek has never shied away from introducing new characters and only linking itself tangentially to what came before. One only need look at TNG, Voyager, DS9, etc. to see that.

Star Wars has always been about the Skywalker family and its effect on the galaxy. Why would they end that legacy now?

 

[shoreu]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. Lucas was criticized precisely because the prequels were only Star Wars in name. Everything else felt wooden and artificial.

Most criticism against TFA is that it's too slavish in its devotion to feeling like the OT, in style and in story.



As I said to *mod whose name escapes me*, I agree there are lots of things they need to answer in the next two films. However, since TFA is only one part of a massive story they've already mapped out, I'm personally okay with them taking time to flesh things out. After the quagmire of political nonsense that was the prequels, JJ needed to hit the ground running with this film, and couldn't take a chance introducing more political "intrigue." Hopefully, they saved that for the sequels.

However, I have to disagree with your assertions about the Empire's creation vs The First Order's. If the novel is anything to be believed (and as will surely be fleshed out in the rest of the trilogy), Snoke was behind the Emperor and Vader, and is now with Ren's Order. So it's not as if the Order just formed from the Empire after its architect was killed. Its true architect is still there, lingering in the shadows.

That would be pretty lame if the planning of palpitine was someone else's. He was an immensely powerful Sith who disrupted the Jedi's precog.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

One would think the New Republic would do their absolute BEST to try and prevent the Empire from coming back, even if the new guys are just angry youths they can do some real damage. TFA really paints the New Republic as a very weak, ignorant and just careless organization that didn't learn history. It makes the victory at the end of ROTJ not seem as... Good...

Sounds like the US government.

Several people trying to do good, but you also have a bunch of A**hole politicians, who are worried about their own self interests, mucking everything up.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Do all of your problems get solved forever after you win at something once?

Do you expect every one of the Core 3 to regress from where progressed to at the end of ROTJ?

Either you're being purposefully obtuse or you didn't read my post.

 

[John Harker]

Do you expect every one of the Core 3 to regress from where progressed to at the end of ROTJ?

Either you're being purposefully obtuse or you didn't read my post.

I expect that people are not the same as they were 34 years later, absolutely