At this point we've defined "establishment" so broadly that it feels as if it's lost any legitimate definition that we want it to confirm to our own biases.
EDIT: fixed because I can't English
Sanders calls Planned Parenthood part of the Political Establishment he's taking on
- Thread starter excelsiorlef
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At this point we've defined "establishment" so broadly that it feels as if it's lost any legitimate definition that we want it to confirm to our own biases.
EDIT: fixed because I can't English
You mean, just because one of them keeps people I love alive? And the other is a constant threat to society? That one is only "establisment" because its fighting for survival, while the other is for increasing its profits? Words have meanings, Kojima wasn't pulling that shit out of his ass. You can't have your enemy use words that you then coopt and use against those you claim to be allies.
It's not people are that need to be convinced he didn't fuck up. It's the general democratic voting base.
At this point it just feels like whoever isn't with Bernie is with the establishment.
Y'all really think Bernie's announcing some new Let's Dismantle Planned Parenthood policy in some awkward off-the-cuff comment that wasn't even primarily about Planned Parenthood?
Yeah fuck understanding, you tell 'em. Gaffes are what are truly important.
Yeah fuck understanding, you tell 'em. Gaffes are what are truly important.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Who? I don't think I saw anyone say that.
The majority of posts here are saying even if he has a point he said it in a horrible fashion and politically bad way considering the only reason on the surface is because those groups did not back him.
Please let's not do the 'I will argue against only the drive by shitposters instead of the majority of the discussion'.
univariate
Banned
Many people in this thread have a serious lapse in their reading comprehension skills.
EmptyCanO'wupass
Member
This seems pretty consistent with his views on political campaigning. He's not saying he hates PP or what they do, just wants them as an institution with money and influence to stay out of supporting political candidates. It's pretty simple.
Her policy is boring same-same centerleft US politics though so it's rarely brought up.
Also, when someone says Bernie is unelectible, they're implicitly criticizing his policy as being too lefist and endorsing Hilldawg's policy as being more palatable to the general populace.
He's not unelectable because he has weird hair.
Though he does have weird hair.
I see a lot of snide comments alluding that Bernie supporters are mostly Reddit-type, brogressive white males here on Neogaf.
Most people my demographic (left-leaning, Puerto Rican college students) seem to be totally infatuated with Bernie Sanders.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Yeah. See: People thinking other people think Bernie is planning to dismantle Planned Parenthood.
Ugh...Bernie, why? When the Republicans were shitting all over PP in the Fall, he was rallying to their cause nonstop...this has to be some kind of slip-up that requires further elaboration.
Seriously, he's got to explain, or the small chance of success that he had is completely gone.
Seriously bumming me out right now.
Seriously, he's got to explain, or the small chance of success that he had is completely gone.
Seriously bumming me out right now.
Latvian Hitman
Member
Fox isn't going to let it go at that; they need something to take the public eye off of TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP, and that first statement is enough to last a week.
It's just salt because they endorsed Hillary and not him. He let salt get in the way of his common sense and here we are. There were half a dozen ways he could have said what he said without it sounding this bad and yet here we are.
Please give me a time stamp where he states this. Because what he does do, after the direct quote in the OP, is Trump his way through the rebuttal talking about how great he is as a supporter of minority rights, and that he really doesn't need establishment support anyways because his grassroots are gonna sweep him into office. The most luxurious roots you ever saw, they're huge!
It feels like people are trying to deny that optics are important by arguing that if you go to the original speech, his intent is clear. My concern is that most people aren't going to do that. They are going to hear whatever the news outlet they use tell them and use that to form their own opinion. The news outlet might even do a bit of editoralizing to mold people's opinions. A lot of people don't know other people who would challenge their first impressions like this thread would.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Instead of saying too leftist (again just words), folks should describe which of his specific policies the majority of Americans disagree with or they themselves disagree with.
He is "to the right" of Hillary when it comes to guns, so specifics are needed.
Latvian Hitman
Member
Uh, yeah. We can absolutely count on that happening.
I'm sure if you cornered them they'd be able to break it down for you but it's much easier to say that, in general, his policies would be too extreme for the general population.
I'm not sure what you're looking for here.
GaffeGAF
vainglorious
Member
excelsiorlef
Member
Not a soul said that.
Seriously..been quite a few embarrassing threads on Gaf lately.
Fenderputty
Banned
Why should PP stay out of the process? Would Bernie's stupid position be different had they endorsed him?
freethoughtbubble
Member
It's fair to decry the bad "optics" of his statement -- but many in this thread, especially on the first page, are reacting to it as if they honestly thought that Sanders was against the substantive policies these organizations advance... And the disappointing part is that many of them do this knowing full well that it's bullshit. They're just playing the game, and doing it pro bono at that.
Yes, this was a bad tactical move, but let's not lose track of the truth here. Democracy is supposed to be about more than optics and gaffes.
Nazgul_Hunter
Member
This is why I think Sanders will be a flop if he makes it to the general. His refusal to play ball with politics as is, is both a strength and a weakness.
He's also not a great communicator, and a lot of what he's trying to sell requires nuanced explanation that he's so far been unable to convey. It was frustrated to hear him say (once again) at the debate, "once [black people] get to know me and hear my message." It's January,... they should have heard and known you by now.
EDIT: He's also using similar language (although in a very different context) than the deranged speech Sarah Palin gave yesterday. It's just a really bad response in general.
I thought that PP made an unprecedented primary endorsement of Hillary Clinton
The first time in the organization's 100-year history that Planned Parenthood Action Fund has endorsed a candidate in a primary.
They have a history of staying out of the process
boiled goose
good with gravy
Id like some examples.
Getting money out of politics is extremely popular among voters from both parties.
Tuition free public universities was the norm at some point. (You could argue Hillarys plan is better in some ways, but never seen this discussion on gaf)
Higher taxes on the rich is definitely popular and again was the norm.
His policies on police oversight are popular.
Too extreme is fluff. I want polls that show his policies are unpopular.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
One of those "I misspoke" moments, clearly. The probability he'd do anything to PP is likely virtually nil, but it'll be a great nugget for his opponents to drag out in every debate.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Way to take it to the other extreme. That line of thinking is what got Sanders to make the statement in the first place.
boiled goose
good with gravy
I agree with him not being the best communicator. Then again, even gaf can't discuss nuance. Politics gonna politics.
I think what he should have said here is this.
"The corrupt political process where money dominates pushes groups with good causes to hsve to waste money and time playing politics"
I thought that PP made an unprecedented primary endorsement of Hillary Clinton
The first time in the organization's 100-year history that Planned Parenthood Action Fund has endorsed a candidate in a primary.
They have a history of staying out of the process
PP endorses a candidate that at has been the political face of women's rights for decades they hope wins after extreme defunding and fearmongering from an entire political party trying to dismantle them at all levels of government instead of her opponent that while has a good record on women's rights, has poor optics and reception among women.
Hmmmmmmm
I think his issue is that they endorsed Clinton, and her 89% on their own congressional scorecard, while he himself scores 100%. This doesn't make a lot of sense, except for cronyism.
Edit: Or sexism.
(read on reddit, cant access pp from work to verify).
The thing is Hillary is fighting him with kid's gloves, but Sanders keeps hitting himself in the face. He's doing well despite that, but if he makes it to the general his campaign has shown no ability to deal with even the most minor of attacks so how the hell is he going to survive the republican onslaught we know will happen? Dude can't be punching himself in the face while they're firing missiles at him.
hipbabboom
Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again? :(
You're right. No one said that.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Why didn't they do the same in 08?
Obama has poor optics?
Also Obama didn't sound like a one note politician that could only take about the economy and Wall Street.
Did you forget what happened to ACORN? They don't want that to happen, so they've had to get more politically active.
EmptyCanO'wupass
Member
I'm not saying I necessarily agree with him here, to be clear. I think non-profits like PP who view their mission as important to people's welfare should be encouraged to endorse candidates (verbally not monetarily) who they feel will push for their cause.
I'm just saying this should not surprise anyone coming from Bernie, as it's consitent with the platform he's been running on all along.
Coffee Dog
Banned
boiled goose
good with gravy
One slight reservation. If the issue is Republicans, they should have waited for the general. Doing it now is politics.
I'm sure some deals where made behind closed doors... your endorsement and donations in exchange for a political favor. In this case for a good cause, but the same corruption that keeps us in perpetual war, drives income inequality, Favors for corporations, war on drugs, prison industrial complex.
Cymbal Head
Banned
Nobody outside of Rachel Maddow's usual viewer base would even know Sanders said this if the Clinton campaign hadn't made a reductive attack out of it.
Because in 2008 they weren't under constant attack by conservatives. They're backing the best chance they have to continue to survive. It's not a conspiracy against Bernie, no matter how much you want it to be.
But that's not valuable either. "He phrased a thing poorly" is, as I said, a gaffe at worst. Does this in any way speak to his ability to lead a nation or to achieve policy goals? Does it tell us anything about the policies he would pursue? No, no, and no.
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