Yes. That was totally it. Besides the fact that there are members of Congress that literally think Planned Parenthood is run by the devil and must be defunded and demolished at all costs since they came into existence.
Sanders calls Planned Parenthood part of the Political Establishment he's taking on
- Thread starter excelsiorlef
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Yes. That was totally it. Besides the fact that there are members of Congress that literally think Planned Parenthood is run by the devil and must be defunded and demolished at all costs since they came into existence.
excelsiorlef
Member
By accurately citing Sanders' own position, no less.
and his thread title even confused Planned Parenthood to comment on his direct quote!
excelsiorlef... .what have you done?!
Herself
edited.
I'm sorry in my native language if you don't specify you end up with a pair of balls and a beard -_-'.
Clearly excelsiorlef is devious beyond contempt!
excelsiorlef
Member
* Her.
Sorry don't mean to make a big deal but I'm a trans woman so it's important to me.
And I'm sorry for being a Clinton agent of Chaos from Canada...
No worries XD
The Bernie Sanders supporters I've spoken to in person (adults in their 30's to 60's) know he can't win the nomination; they're voting for him as a protest against the milquetoast, center-right tendencies of the current Democratic Party's leadership. His hypothetical presidency doesn't factor into it at all. It's about how we spend too much time capitulating to the right instead of digging in our heels and standing up for progressive values.
Sure, there's some true believers out there, namely millennials. But in the big picture, the more support Bernie gets, the more Hillary is going to have to cater to those folks. It's clear they aren't interested in the status quo. They still want the Change we voted for in 2008.
This is also why it's really dumb to be treating all Sanders supporters as some anti-Hillary hivemind. Insulting them does you no favors.
Dash_Riprock
Member
So, its basically Ron Paul all over again: Voting for the guy you know won't win just to "send Washington a message" even if it fucks over the election and gives it to the other party?
It's the primaries.
The whole point is to vote with your heart so to speak for the candidate that better represent your values to get to the GE.
The issue with that statement is that some people could rightfully wonder if Sanders accurately represent their values or not.
If women don't feel like Sanders is protecting their interest if elected no one could really blame them after this.
From where I'm looking from I understand way better why we could end up with a horrible turnout next election.
It goes both ways btw, Sanders fans insulting Hilary's supporters will not garner them any more support.
* Her.
Sorry don't mean to make a big deal but I'm a trans woman so it's important to me.
And I'm sorry for being a Clinton agent of Chaos from Canada...
No worries XD
My mistake... god damn this patriarchal society. You know, from here out.. I'll just use they/them unless I know.
excelsiorlef
Member
Right? I do it too. No worries.
CyclopsRock
Member
Why, though? I gather from your post that these people - since they know Bernie wouldn't win an election even if he got the nomination - are Democrats who will go on to vote for Hilary anyway. So on what grounds does Hilary have to cater to these folk? Democrats running for congress, maybe, and in that way Hilary might have to, but in terms of her own campaign and policy direction, as soon as she wins the nomination it's up to her, no?
Well that's the difference between the general and primary elections, no? A vote for Bernie isn't a vote for the GOP.
I think the issue is more about people who would rather sit out or vote for Trump than vote for Hilary.
brainchild
Banned
My title
The original quote
The Double down:
And yet, none of this suggests that Bernie wishes to dismantle the progressive efforts of organizations like PP and HRC, which is the narrative proliferating throughout this thread. To suggest that those were the implications, even after this 'double down', is just as wrong as it was before Tad Devine opened his big, stupid mouth.
excelsiorlef
Member
No it isn't.
The narrative is holy shit Sanders that was a stupid thing to say and holy shit don't double down on it... is this a sign of what he'll be like in the GE... that's a cause for concern about his ability to survive the GOP machine.
Because let me reiterate what he said is incredibly idiotic.
Zoe
Member
CyclopsRock
Member
Well maybe, but the comparison to Ron Paul doesn't work in this instance.
excelsiorlef
Member
As in actively.
Fact Clinton actively introduced legislation
Fact Sanders has not
Clinton actively talks about women's rights, makes it part of her campaign.
Sanders not as much and this gaffe followed by the double down doesnt help
Also fact one peson does not a narrative make anyway.
Apparently Bernie Sanders is pro-life now and wants to take away funding from planned parenthood.
excelsiorlef
Member
What are you talking about?
No the Bernie supporters in this thread are proliferating the idea we don't think he supports a progressive caucus or organizations like PP and HRC, we are highlighting the fact he isn't a very good national campaigner for his own ideas, and his staff are terrible at supporting him when they tried to defend a message that stupidly said. Most of us are looking at this as an issue on whether we trust him to stay on message and sell his ideas properly in the general. Some of us (including myself) support the decision PP made and understand why they did it but don't believe it is a slight against Bernie's support for them, but just that Hilary has done more and earned that endorsement. If Bernie wins the nomination, I doubt they will be siding with the other party out of some misinterpreted spite.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Yup, it is one of her actual platforms that she states she will fight for. In fact, she has been criticized for using her gender for political gain over it.
If people think that Sanders doesn't support women's rights because of this, then they have been successfully concern trolled. That's been my issue with this. It's disingenuous politicking.
It's ultimately about getting people off their asses and into voting booths. If a large portion of them are excited about Bernie's progressive ideas, then the DNC is going to have to adjust their platform to include those people. For me and a lot of others, Bernie's candidacy has always been about bringing Hillary to the left. In a universe in which Jim Webb was still in the race and getting Bernie's numbers, then the opposite would be true.
exmachina64
Banned
This will be good.
Well. What does "taking on" planned parenthood mean to you (your framing of the quote)? I would imagine based on the outrage is that people think it at least means that he's going to "attack it" in some way: maybe by dismantling or defunding it. Which I think is pretty unreasonable to assume considering his record. That he's against any government, like republicans?
Otherwise, what is the outrage about? Because I don't get it. It just seems to me he's making just an accurate statement.
Aeriscloud
Banned
This kills Sanders for me, yikes.
GuessMyUserName
Member
Can people stop arguing fictitious positions please? I was going to mention this pages ago but didn't bother, and now it seems this is still going on.
Various different posters have clarified by now that nobody is saying that Sanders is opposing women's rights, this is purely about positioning. Get past it and meet the actual conversation already.
Various different posters have clarified by now that nobody is saying that Sanders is opposing women's rights, this is purely about positioning. Get past it and meet the actual conversation already.
I'll wait to see how it holds up, there's certainly some parallels that can be drawn.
This is a presidential election, of course everything he says will be looked at from all angles and looked at to see if you can get anything from it.
If he doesn't support women's right enough that what he says can be construed as an attack on it it's his job to not let such misconception form.
God dammit bernie.. let if fucking go.
Its Absoluter(TM)GAF(TM) any counter point goes to the opposite side of the hyperbolic spectrum.
The only reason this is being talked about is because Hillary tweeted about it. The title of the OP article is "Clinton calls Sanders out on Planned Parenthood". That's what this is all about.
He's been plenty outspoken about women's rights during the campaign and in his various political roles throughout his career. This is about playing to certain people ignorance of Sanders, insinuating something about him that is blatantly false.
Which is fair game, she directed the attention to some weakness of her competition's campaign.
Trump did the same to Cruz.
That would never have happened if Sanders was a better candidate and didn't spend his time providing angles to kill his campaign.
He is the candidate who branded PP and HRC as the enemies he has to defeat.
It's not Hilary's job to avoid attacking Sanders where he is weak.
Again if this how he is in the primary, he's going to get eaten alive in the GE.
Heck Sanders is no different in pointing out issues with her (he retweeted this) :
https://twitter.com/cascamike/status/690299381602521088
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Digesting this, I don't think it's wrong to call them Democratic establishment per se, but its not like it is a "bad" part of it that you need to fight against. Sanders needed to clarify a lot instead of lumping it in with his regular lines
Well, that her and her campaigns job. Both candidates have enough experience to know how this works. Especially Bernie since he managed to be one of a handful of non Dem or Repub candidates to be elected in the United States.
excelsiorlef
Member
So you read none of the thread at all. Cool.
It doesn't sound like any of this to me personally. Planned Parenthood has lobbyists on capitol hill too, they are a political player and make political moves. Comes off as a bit of sour grapes but nothing untrue. Both the Human Rights Fund and PP would support Bernie unequivocally in the general if he's the nom, everything just gets magnified bc it's the primaries.
excelsiorlef
Member
Welcome to a fucking election. If you don't want your opponent to have something on you don't say stupid shit and double down on it.
Do you think... but it's only a big deal because Trump commented on it will work in the GE?
Ziltoidia 9
Member
Sad thing is, none of this Hillary vs Sanders stuff really matters. Congress will work with neither of them.
excelsiorlef
Member
Yes no shit. He's not anti-womam he's just prone to verbal gaffe that frankly could sink his campaign in the GE. There was no reason to talk about Wallstreet and the economic establishment that he's up against and then say there's a political one too and that PP and HRC (which he called the HRF, when you want support not a great idea to not know the right name) are part of it, that was idiotic. It was further idiotic to then go and send a member of his team to double down clarify that what he said is exactly what he meant.
Monday is going to be fascinating. If he triple downs that'll be the hight of idiocy.
I think maybe you need to settle down a bit.
hey everyone, its the fun police... But, yeah.. I mean they hated Obama.. I can only imagine what they will do when a *gasp* woman, is calling the shots.
Glorified G
Member
I haven't seen a thread backfire like this in quite a while.
Not really sure how to respond to this. I read at least some of it, I guess. So you're wrong on that one!
When the OP goes off the deep end it doesnt help.
Deserted Maniac Island
Member
I don't understand the controversy of this quote. I think he's saying that PP and HRC are apart of the ogrnanations that don't and won't support him because he is not a political of heavyweight (Of the democratic party) like Clinton.
I'm I reading it wrong.
Anyway, Clinton is great (In an Obama [Already seen] kinda way), Bernie is great (In a fresh kinda way). However, I feel like Bernie is a passionate person, who cares about people; I'm sure Clinton cares about people too, but she's is much more of a calculating sorta person.
I'm I reading it wrong.
Anyway, Clinton is great (In an Obama [Already seen] kinda way), Bernie is great (In a fresh kinda way). However, I feel like Bernie is a passionate person, who cares about people; I'm sure Clinton cares about people too, but she's is much more of a calculating sorta person.
excelsiorlef
Member
Off the deep end? Like quoting Sanders? I mean I didn't make him double down on his statement.
Btw backfire? It's been a spirited argument between two povs (with some in the middle)
campfireweekend
Member
It's funny that that's what you got from a read of the thread.
brainchild
Banned
Unfortunately, all multiquotes prior to this page somehow did not show up when I finished the multiquotes, but I quoted at least six people who all believed that Bernie was either anti-women's rights or wanted to defund PP. I'm not going to go through all 19 pages again, but seeing as this is your thread, it would behoove you to read your own damn thread. I'm not making this shit up.
The rest of the posts consisted of posters either objecting to fallacious posts that misrepresented Bernie's statements, or posters concern trolling by pretending that Bernie's gaffe seriously calls his viability in the general election into question more than it already has been.
The problem with this is that the basis of these arguments are predicated on the notion that his statements will be misconstrued by the general public as him being anti-women's rights, which really isn't Bernie's fault, because regardless of how he phrased his response, if he were to answer truthfully, there would always be a way to distort it in a way that could be misconstrued to mean that. Conversely, if Hillary, any other politician, or the media never brought attention to his statements, I believe that the context of the interview would have been enough for the general public to understand the intentions behind his statements. They weren't even that nuanced in the first place.
Purporting this as some huge blunder comes across as extremely disingenuous to me considering what he actually said.
I went through all 19 pages. Have you? The basis of my argument is supported with concrete evidence that can be found within this very thread. Have a gander.
I have no problem with you disagreeing with Bernie's statements on the matter. I do have a problem with double standards.
Should Hillary get the nomination, I imagine she may find herself questioning some of her own statements due to possibility of them being misconstrued. No one is infallible and Hillary isn't a perfect politician. If you asked her today if she would choose to rephrase her historical "cut it out" phrase if given the chance, she'd probably would say yes. Yet you somehow believe she'd be impenetrable when going up against the GOP.
Bernie or Hillary may hit a few snags when going up against the GOP, but if they lose the election, it won't be because they made a few insignificant gaffes.
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