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[prag16]

The e-mail thing? Really? You mean that thing where every few weeks we find out she did nothing wrong but that they're gonna keep looking into it just in case?

I had forgotten the gaf hivemind had already decided long ago that it doesn't matter, and has an interesting interpretation of what constitutes wrongdoing. Carry on.

 

[ibyea]

I had forgotten the gaf hivemind had already decided long ago that it doesn't matter. Carry on.

It doesn't matter, the emails were classified after the fact. But by all means keep going with your misinformed views.

 

[noshten]

Being independents can't vote (closed Caucus), has a sizeable minority population, and that largest union is pissed at Sander's for his campaign impersonating union members....I think Bernie has a huge, huge hill to climb, which his campaign manager sorta hinted at on CNN tonight.

I don't know about that I kind of feel that much like the CSN student body president business yesterday, there is a lot of smoke an mirrors regarding the way the internal polling is going in Nevada. Brian Fallon is already downplaying the state, since it's a caucus and enthusiasm will be on Sander's side.

 

[Tingle]

Honest question: how do you qualify that Bernie is dismissing black folks? How do you qualify that his supporters are? Like, do you count how many on twitter respond positively or negatively to black bloggers? Do you count responses to black celebrities or black politicians in that number?

It feels like too many people in these political threads are treating "black folks" like some monolith or some token group that can be swayed by shiny pieces of rhetoric. It's incredibly condescending.

Its silly to pretend that you can't generalize populations on a larger scale. That is basically how it works, and its not exclusive to blacks or any minority group.

People do the same thing all the time for every group, such as saying "X position by Y candidate is going to sway the Christian voters."

Its not pretending blacks are a monolith, but realizing that certain policies/positions do appeal to black voters in general.

 

[injurai]

Honest question: how do you qualify that Bernie is dismissing black folks? How do you qualify that his supporters are? Like, do you count how many on twitter respond positively or negatively to black bloggers? Do you count responses to black celebrities or black politicians in that number?

It feels like too many people in these political threads are treating "black folks" like some monolith or some token group that can be swayed by shiny pieces of rhetoric. It's incredibly condescending.

I agree with this. There are legitimate points that people bring up that would help boost the appeal to blacks. But there is also this overwhelming since to patronize the black voting block as if they are just waiting on their heels for Bernie to give some dissenting comments towards the rabid supporters. Which is funny because the people that make these points are Clinton supporters that side against Bernie based on policy. It's just astounding.

 

[neurosisxeno]

It really just stems from the Clinton's being very popular with African Americans for the last 30 years.

According to everyone else it's because Bernie patronizes the black community. Not sure when he did that but I'm compelled to believe it has more to do with their long standing support of the Clintons.

 

[A Human Becoming]

Democrats
Voting percentage reported 86%

Bernie Sanders 60%
Hillary Clinton 39%

Republicans
Voting percentage reported 89%

Donald Trump 35%
John Kasich 16%
Ted Cruz 12%
Jeb (John E. Bush) 11%
Marco Rubio 10%
Chris Christie 8%
Carly Fiorina 4%
Ben Carson 2%

The counting is almost done. Trump and Hillary both gained a point.

 

[elfboy]

"bernie cant win the women vote" "bernie cant win the black vote" "bernie cant win the democratic nomination"

its going to be hilarious to see all the crow eating in this forum a few months from now

 

[Elfforkusu]

I'm just viewing it like this: I prefer Bernie's policies despite pragmatically supporting Hillary as the more likely to win GE candidate, and his supporters are good Democrats and Americans. But I simultaneously hope that this entire primary season functions as a very tough lesson for these same idealists, because idealism really doesn't get you much. Even on the occasion a perfect storm brews and that idealism sweeps someone into office (not gonna happen here), you have to figure out how to pass legislation. You have to compromise your values somewhere to get something passed, first. Second, before that even happens, you have to fix the gerrymandered system, something that can't even begin to happen until after 2020 earliest. Then we're back to the illusion of these political figures and if any of them could actually even be the transformational figures these campaigns keep claiming.

American politics for many many many many generations has been the story of slow, incremental change adding up to big things, and seizing on opportunities when they arise to best advance your agenda. Now was the wrong time for Bernie for numerous reasons. But it's a good time for people to understand that merely hoping for something isn't likely to make it occur. You also need to understand how to work the system in your favor.

Nah.

This country is crumbling domestically, living off the decaying laurels of the New Deal and post WWII boom. The status quo is decay. What you call "incremental change" is really stagnation, a resignation that the best we can do is polluted drinking water, a health care system where disease means bankruptcy, and generation after generation of disenfranchised african-americans.

I do agree that the Democratic party has come to stand for all of the above, though -- much like the Republicans. Because the default state of this democracy is stagnation. But every once in a while -- with FDR, with Kennedy and LBJ -- the people swell up and retake the wheel of the rudderless country.

That's ultimate what Bernie's trying to do. He probably won't succeed. But whether he does or not, this powder keg is going to blow at some point.

 

[And_Gignac]

Do you think that young black voters don't talk to each other and older folks or something?

Bernie favorables are high with black voters. I mean, I would like to see some data to confirm such ideas, not just anecdotical experiences from Twitter.

I also think people are not dumb or irrational enough to not vote for a candidate they prefer or like better just because some people are being annoying in the internet.

 

[maabus1999]

Honest question: how do you qualify that Bernie is dismissing black folks? How do you qualify that his supporters are? Like, do you count how many on twitter respond positively or negatively to black bloggers? Do you count responses to black celebrities or black politicians in that number?

It feels like too many people in these political threads are treating "black folks" like some monolith or some token group that can be swayed by shiny pieces of rhetoric. It's incredibly condescending.

Actually the media has been reporting on this quiet a bit, if folks are following news nearly 24/7 like I do at times. And what I think is ironic is your post is actually fits some of their complaints in general if you read several posters the past few pages and may find your post as condescending as you find theirs.

And now you see why Bernie has an appearance problem! QED

 

[Ogrekiller]

I had forgotten the gaf hivemind had already decided long ago that it doesn't matter, and has an interesting interpretation of what constitutes wrongdoing. Carry on.

You think the media won't start to dig up dirt on anyone looking likely to win? Come on.

Just Be glad your boy Paul didn't get demolished to the point where he can't even run for his Senate seat. If the media and democrats really went after him he wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

 

[B-Dubs]

According to everyone else it's because Bernie patronizes the black community. Not sure when he did that but I'm compelled to believe it has more to do with their long standing support of the Clintons.

It's also that he's not been playing the retail politics very well. For example the only candidate to go to the biggest gathering of african-americans in Iowa was Hillary. She gave a speech, shook some hands and then Bill stayed for like a day and a half, including a speech at a church service so long they forgot to have the service.

 

[RoKKeR]

Have CNN on the background, sounds like Cruz and Bush's campaigns are about to go all in on Rubio.

 

[Infinite]

Bernie favorables are high with black voters. I mean, I would like to see some data to confirm such ideas, not just anecdotical experiences from Twitter.

I also think people are not dumb or irrational enough to not vote for a candidate they prefer or like better just because some people are being annoying in the internet.

Why do you guys act like this doesn't matter?

 

[GoldenEye 007]

I'm just curious, has Clinton suggested any initiatives? Because I don't think either have. If Bernie were to theoretically try this approach, couldn't Clinton probably just counter it by suggesting similar but different approaches anyway?

I... don't think she has. At least nothing I have noticed. But, Clinton does have a crapton of familiarity. The Clintons are well known and have historically a favorable opinion on blacks, outside of 2008, of course.

And yeah, she might. People are more familiar with her in general I guess.

 

[Downhome]

Have CNN on the background, sounds like Cruz and Bush's campaigns are about to go all in on Rubio.

It's gonna be Trump vs Cruz and Bush Vs Rubio. If Bush and Rubio start tearing one another apart they better be careful. Kasich could sneak up on those two.

 

[prag16]

It doesn't matter, the emails were classified after the fact. But by all means keep going with your misinformed views.

Bullshit. Imagine if George W. Bush had been in that situation. I'm sure you'd have said that doesn't matter either.

No, better push the narrative that Hilldawg (and Slick Willie for that matter) is a paragon of ethical transparent virtue over her political career.

You think the media won't start to dig up dirt on anyone looking likely to win? Come on.

Just Be glad your boy Paul didn't get demolished to the point where he can't even run for his Senate seat. If the media and democrats really went after him he wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Sure, just like they demolished Cruz and Trump. Yeah, those guys are totally dead in the water, right? (And those guys have a lot more baggage than Paul by most measures.)

 

[Alcander]

Yeah, I always thought it was short for Jebidiah or something, but he's the GOB of the Bush family.

I've read GOB was intentionally based on JEB (it fits with the George Sr. reference). Though I have no idea how reliable this is.

 

[royalan]

Also, another thing that Bernie needs to get his lapdogs Killer Mike and Cornell West to stop doing is comparing Bernie Sanders to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Even if they are just trying to point out that King had similar socialist ideals and there's some truth there, there are very few figures more dear to the collective heart of Black America than Dr. King. I got a little emotional just typing this.

Just don't go there. They risk turning people off before they even get a chance to justify the comparison.

 

[eyeball_kid]

Patronizing said voters is a bad idea. And it's an idea I've seen a few Hillary voters do, but far too many Sanders supporters do. Too many for the uphill climb ahead.

Hillary is having a similar problem talking down to and shaming young women. I mean she's not doing it directly, but her supporters like Steinem saying young girls are only voting Bernie because "that's where the boys are" and Sec. Albright saying "if you're not with Hillary you're going to hell". Her campaign got quite a bit of blowback for that.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Actually the media has been reporting on this quiet a bit, if folks are following news nearly 24/7 like I do at times. And what I think is ironic is your post is actually fits some of their complaints in general if you read several posters the past few pages and may find your post as condescending as you find theirs.

And now you see why Bernie has an appearance problem! QED

There's no QED when you admit that both sides do the same thing. Also "the media has been reporting on this [quite] a bit" is one of the least specific statements you can give.

Like, do South Carolina voters even know about the "BernieBro" black-dismissal syndrome? Does that even register on polls? There doesn't seem to be any data on this stuff, but people just throw around "black folks like this, they don't like this" like their friend John on Twitter is the ambassador for all people of color.

 

[B-Dubs]

Bullshit. Imagine if George W. Bush had been in that situation. I'm sure you'd have said that doesn't matter either.

No, better push the narrative that Hilldawg (and Slick Willie for that matter) is a paragon of ethical transparent virtue over her political career.

Colon Powell and Condi Rice did the exact same thing and no one gives a shit.

 

[maabus1999]

I don't know about that I kind of feel that much like the CSN student body president business yesterday, there is a lot of smoke an mirrors regarding the way the internal polling is going in Nevada. Brian Fallon is already downplaying the state, since it's a caucus and enthusiasm will be on Sander's side.

Again, polls mean nothing unless the person is registered before the Caucus starts, or they can't attend. It is actually more closed than Iowa's.

 

[Amir0x]

Nah.

This country is crumbling domestically, living off the decaying laurels of the New Deal and post WWII boom. The status quo is decay. What you call "incremental change" is really stagnation, a resignation that the best we can do is polluted drinking water, a health care system where disease means bankruptcy, and generation after generation of disenfranchised african-americans.

I do agree that the Democratic party has come to stand for all of the above, though -- much like the Republicans. Because the default state of this democracy is stagnation. But every once in a while -- with FDR, with Kennedy and LBJ -- the people swell up and retake the wheel of the rudderless country.

That's ultimate what Bernie's trying to do. He probably won't succeed. But whether he does or not, this powder keg is going to blow at some point.

The powder keg will not blow unless the system is fundamentally changed. Part of the issue is the landscape and the way American politics works has altered hugely since even the 1930s. It's much harder today to have such a powder keg blow. Look at Obama - after the disastrous Bush years, a collapsing economy, endless scandals... and still, the man came into office and expended virtually all his political capital on passing the neutered Affordable Care Act and disillusioned millions of progressive voters faced with the harsh reality of what a Dem president can reasonably due faced with a congress resolutely opposed to anything he wants to do.

And we can quantify how much has changed too. No president in history has been filibustered as much as Obama. It's literally unprecedented. So, one may say "nah", but you have to come up with a scenario in which "nah" actually serves as an honest response to the harsh realities of politics I'm stating here.

 

[Tingle]

Also, another thing that Bernie needs to get his lapdogs Killer Mike and Cornell West to stop doing is comparing Bernie Sanders to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Even if they are just trying to point out that King had similar socialist ideals and there's some truth there, there are very few figures more dear to the collective heart of Black America than Dr. King. I got a little emotional just typing this.

Just don't go there. They risk turning people off before they even get a chance to justify the comparison.

I could even get the comparison if he were trying to make some sort of an advancement in terms of civil rights, but without it the comparison falls flat and would make anyone seem silly.

I haven't seen that argument, though. Just that he marched with King, but that seems to be the most frequently addressed one anyway.

 

[Indicate]

Democrats
Voting percentage reported 86%

Bernie Sanders 60%
Hillary Clinton 39%

Republicans
Voting percentage reported 89%

Donald Trump 35%
John Kasich 16%
Ted Cruz 12%
Jeb (John E. Bush) 11%
Marco Rubio 10%
Chris Christie 8%
Carly Fiorina 4%
Ben Carson 2%

The counting is almost done. Trump and Hillary both gained a point.

Thanks for the constant updates by the way.

 

[danm999]

Bullshit. Imagine if George W. Bush had been in that situation. I'm sure you'd have said that doesn't matter either.

No, better push the narrative that Hilldawg (and Slick Willie for that matter) is a paragon of ethical transparent virtue over her political career.

Colin Powell and Condy Rice are in that situation.

Nobody gives a shit.

 

[ibyea]

Bullshit. Imagine if George W. Bush had been in that situation. I'm sure you'd have said that doesn't matter either.

No, better push the narrative that Hilldawg (and Slick Willie for that matter) is a paragon of ethical transparent virtue over her political career.



Sure, just like they demolished Cruz and Trump. Yeah, those guys are totally dead in the water, right? (And those guys have a lot more baggage than Paul by most measures.)

That's right, even with Bush, it wouldn't have mattered, because other people before her, including Republicans have done it, and again the emails were classified after the fact. And no, I don't think Clinton is a "paragon of ethical transparent virtue" and I am a Sanders supporter.

 

[prag16]

Colon Powell and Condi Rice did the exact same thing and no one gives a shit.

They were ordered to hand over their emails after playing a role in a major international debacle, but deleted over 30,000 of them before complying? If so then I stand corrected.

 

[Crocodile]

Bernie favorables are high with black voters. I mean, I would like to see some data to confirm such ideas, not just anecdotical experiences from Twitter.

I also think people are not dumb or irrational enough to not vote for a candidate they prefer or like better just because some people are being annoying in the internet.

We judge candidates on their supporters all the time. If the message of a candidate is resonating with those you find anywhere from annoying to contemptible, why is it wrong for that to reflect negatively on the candidate? Like obviously there are bad apples everywhere but this is a pattern we are talking about. If, for example, a candidate was consistently appealing to voters who were opposed to same sex marriage, wouldn't that give you pause about said candidate even if you liked some of their positions?

 

[danm999]

They were ordered to hand over their emails after playing a role in a major international debacle, but deleted over 30,000 of them before complying? If so then I stand corrected.

No one even cares enough to ask for their emails.

 

[B-Dubs]

They were ordered to hand over their emails after playing a role in a major international debacle, but deleted over 30,000 of them before complying? If so then I stand corrected.

OH! Benghazi now? OK, so at least we all know to ignore you going forward.

 

[Pizoxuat]

I get so frustrated with Bernie pivoting back to economics when social justice issues are brought up. Economic issues are very important and why he has my vote, but economic policy doesn't erase racism or sexism or any other axis of oppression. He hired staff to have policy positions drawn up to deal with these issues after the BLM interruptions. Now he needs be willing to talk about them. Because Hillary not only has policy positions drawn up, she has a history of writing and advocating for laws in this area. Bernie is a solid, reliable vote for the right things, but he's not the guy proposing and pushing for them.

 

[maabus1999]

There's no QED when you admit that both sides do the same thing. Also "the media has been reporting on this [quite] a bit" is one of the least specific statements you can give.

Like, do South Carolina voters even know about the "BernieBro" black-dismissal syndrome? Does that even register on polls? There doesn't seem to be any data on this stuff, but people just throw around "black folks like this, they don't like this" like their friend John on Twitter is the ambassador for all people of color.

Sigh....here I'll just leave a Google News search so you can read the news yourself. You're being pretty defensive about this for whatever reason.

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...e=UTF-8#q=bernie+sanders+black+voters&tbm=nws

 

[CountAntonius]

Love Pop.

 

[Afrodium]

Nah.

This country is crumbling domestically, living off the decaying laurels of the New Deal and post WWII boom. The status quo is decay. What you call "incremental change" is really stagnation, a resignation that the best we can do is polluted drinking water, a health care system where disease means bankruptcy, and generation after generation of disenfranchised african-americans.

I do agree that the Democratic party has come to stand for all of the above, though -- much like the Republicans. Because the default state of this democracy is stagnation. But every once in a while -- with FDR, with Kennedy and LBJ -- the people swell up and retake the wheel of the rudderless country.

That's ultimate what Bernie's trying to do. He probably won't succeed. But whether he does or not, this powder keg is going to blow at some point.

You'd see real stagnation with a Sanders presidency. I'd love for everything he's campaigning on to come to fruition but he's not going to pass anything through congress without serious compromises. Four years later after Dems are disillusioned and Republicans are riled up after having a Socialist hold the presidency, the GOP will hold the executive branch again. Then instead of stagnation you'll get regression.

 

[Tingle]

We judge candidates on their supporters all the time. If the message of a candidate is resonating with those you find anywhere from annoying to contemptible, why is it wrong for that to reflect negatively on the candidate? Like obviously there are bad apples everywhere but this is a pattern we are talking about. If, for example, a candidate was consistently appealing to voters who were opposed to same sex marriage, wouldn't that give you pause about said candidate even if you liked some of their positions?

I would say its wrong to do that because the supporters aren't the ones in office, and it seems a bit petty to alter your choice in such a large stake situation due to some people on twitter acting childish.

That being said, first impressions do matter, and rabid supporters for any candidate are likely doing more harm than good.

 

[bender]

John Kasich 16%

Maybe it's because he gets the least amount of screen time during the GOP debates but he's been my favorite Republican candidate.

 

[Abinash117]

CNN with an interesting point. Saying that in 2008 the black vote was heavily in favor of Clinton starting out on the basis people didn't believe Obama actually had a shot initially. But after Iowa, there was a massive reversal in SC.

Is that accurate. I know some people say that Bernie is suspect with blacks currently. But if he demonstrates viability, is it outside of the realm of possibility that Bernie might improve his standing with black voters. Especially if they learn more of his historical record and he better demonstrates how he understands various relevant issues?

I think there's a misconception. Hillary was well on her way of losing the black vote right before IW. http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/black-vote-was-invisible-to-penn/

She lost it because of what she did. Now there is no mass exodus and AAs still overwhelming support her.
http://www.theroot.com/articles/pol..._day_hillary_clinton_lost_the_black_vote.html
http://www.vocativ.com/news/275541/could-clinton-lose-support-from-black-voters-again/

 

[zoozilla]

Also, another thing that Bernie needs to get his lapdogs Killer Mike and Cornell West to stop doing is comparing Bernie Sanders to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Even if they are just trying to point out that King had similar socialist ideals and there's some truth there, there are very few figures more dear to the collective heart of Black America than Dr. King. I got a little emotional just typing this.

Just don't go there. They risk turning people off before they even get a chance to justify the comparison.

They should really be comparing Bernie to Jesus.

 

[Elfforkusu]

The powder keg will not blow unless the system is fundamentally changed. Part of the issue is the landscape and the way American politics works has altered hugely since even the 1930s. It's much harder today to have such a powder keg blow. Look at Obama - after the disastrous Bush years, a collapsing economy, endless scandals... and still, the man came into office and expended virtually all his political capital on passing the neutered Affordable Care Act and disillusioned millions of progressive voters faced with the harsh reality of what a Dem president can reasonably due faced with a congress resolutely opposed to anything he wants to do.

And we can quantify how much has changed too. No president in history has been filibustered as much as Obama. It's literally unprecedented. So, one may say "nah", but you have to come up with a scenario in which "nah" actually serves as an honest response to the harsh realities of politics I'm stating here.

The current Democratic party is not going to change it. They will just gerrymander it in a different and equally exciting way, continue collecting paychecks from big business, and go along their merry way. The idea that a Democratic supermajority is going to fix the problems with this country is wishful thinking.

One or both of the parties needs to be upended, and ideally both of them.

 

[Pamplemousse]

"bernie cant win the women vote" "bernie cant win the black vote" "bernie cant win the democratic nomination"

its going to be hilarious to see all the crow eating in this forum a few months from now

It remains to be seen whether he can win the black vote in any meaningful way. NH is an overwhelmingly white state. We'll see how he fares in South Carolina, but a Bern nom seems unlikely right now.

 

[Tesseract]

you think bernie is gonna get street fighter v?

 

[gcubed]

Can I have your crystal ball please?

This is just dumb. On the level of climate change deniers.

 

[injurai]

Also, another thing that Bernie needs to get his lapdogs Killer Mike and Cornell West to stop doing is comparing Bernie Sanders to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Even if they are just trying to point out that King had similar socialist ideals and there's some truth there, there are very few figures more dear to the collective heart of Black America than Dr. King. I got a little emotional just typing this.

Just don't go there. They risk turning people off before they even get a chance to justify the comparison.

You talk like Bernie needs to have his supporters on a leash. He isn't just representing his own voice, he is acting as a guiding force for a larger movement. You even concede their are some valid similarities with MLK's socialist ideals. It's no different than when they bring up the socialist ideals of FDR. Stop acting like MLK is the trump card, he is a perfectly valid historical figure that is used to frame socialism as being inline with American values and isn't some scary or foreign. It's perfectly fine to go their, and quite frankly I think you're kind of cynicism doesn't do any good. Once again holding concern and patronizing people who are perfectly capable of following through to hear justifications of comparison.

 

[Drakeon]

They were ordered to hand over their emails after playing a role in a major international debacle, but deleted over 30,000 of them before complying? If so then I stand corrected.

Did you care when the Bush administration was ordered to hand over emails at the height of a scandal and deleted literally 22 million?

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

This is just dumb. On the level of climate change deniers.

are you seriously comparing anyone who doesn't think bernie would be a useless president to fucking anti-global warming groups?

 

[Ogrekiller]

Can I have your crystal ball please?

Why not?

Just look at Obama.

Now you're starting without the House and Senate and you're saying that people are going to be happy once Bernie gets nothing done.

Man people will be so happy he's not getting heathcare passed that they'll vote in a house and senate in 18 to help him pass his legislation!

 

[And_Gignac]

Why do you guys act like this doesn't matter?

Because every candidate has zealots. Its not only Bernies campaign who has magically created them.

It is a problem, but not a problem that Sanders can control; that speaks of him as a person or that signifies a big margin of his supporters base. The average Sanders supporter looks more like a young women than a proto-Ron Paul supporter.