Pai Pai Master
Banned
I want him to be in the final running against Trump and people still going "who?"
The New Hampshire Primary |Feb 9|: Live Free or Die
- Thread starter A Human Becoming
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I want him to be in the final running against Trump and people still going "who?"
that poster wasn't being he serious, he was poking fun at the usual points that get brought up
I thought that was basically expected... A 30% victory would be 'great'.
Everything I read had him winning by at least 15, closer to 20.
Angry Fork
Member
Both Obama and Hillary are about where Reagan was with some exceptions that they flip flopped on for votes (gay rights/guns mainly). Reagan wasn't a liberal.
In obama's own words:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=677elaGIsKU
I think this is largely a case of the goalposts being moved once the results became concrete last night. you can see a shift in this thread about what constituted a good win for Bernie.
I was operating under the impression that any win greater than ~16% would be a good win for Bernie
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
The weighted polling averages in the OP was 14%, so he over performed with 21-22%.
Judging by the criteria for the next debate (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/criteria-for-cbs-news-republican-debate/)
I'm guessing we won't see Carson, Fiorina, Christie or even Kasich on stage?
Who is polling 5th nationally?
I'm guessing we won't see Carson, Fiorina, Christie or even Kasich on stage?
Who is polling 5th nationally?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
He won by 21.7%. That's an incredible performance. Let's not bullshit expectations here. he outperformed every single final poll of the NH race except CNN/WMUR, and on average beat the polls by 5.6 points. It was a stomping. A 30% victory would mean that he'd be beating Clinton nationally when you account for demographics, and by a fairly large margin; that was never seriously obtainable.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
brochiller
Member
I would be very surprised to not see Kasich on stage at the next debate after he just made himself slightly relevant again.
Others have already handled the first part of this assertion, but I'm confused by the implication that this was only Hillary.
Bernie was against gay marriage passing on a federal level. He said so repeatedly. He considered gay marriage too "divisive" an issue to even attempt to pass nationally, which I guess is convenient if you aren't gay and live in a very liberal state. He has a very spotty record on gay rights, however he tries to revise it now.
I find it kind of troubling, in fact, that he talks such a good game but actually cares to do so little for those troublesome and divisive gay people. He's rather like every other politician after all.
Come on, man. Can you back that up with some examples? I want to believe this isn't just broad strokes of hyperbole taking aim at the politicians you dislike.
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
Even though that poster wasn't being serious, I don't think we can compare the two candidate's 'evolving thoughts' as being the same. Sanders was one of the minority that actually voted against doma, and he's constantly opposed efforts in gov't to define marriage as between a man and a woman. And we all know Clinton's history on the issue.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
It says you need to have placed top three in Iowa, top five in New Hampshire, or be polling top five nationally. I make that Trump, Cruz, Rubio for Iowa, Trump, Kasich, Cruz, Bush, Rubio for New Hampshire, and Trump, Cruz, Rubio, Carson and either Kasich or Bush based on which polls you use in your aggregate; but it doesn't matter because both Kasich and Bush placed top five in New Hampshire. The debate line-up isn't going to change unless Christie soars nationally, it's going the following six: Trump, Cruz, Rubio, Carson, Bush, Kasich.
At the time, he said he voted against DOMA because it weakened the constitution. Not because it violated the rights of Americans.
Maybe his reasoning in private was different than what was stated publicly, but the same could be said for every other politician. We only actually have what was said at the time.
Obama one of the most charismatic presidents we've had couldn't get people out for the midterms. Bernie nor Hillary will magically get dems out to vote. We're notoriously shit when it comes to midterms
I think Bernie winning every income range except for $200,000+ is even more telling
thestopsign
Member
I must be one of a few people still super divided on whether to vote for Bernie or Hillary. The bickering between sides is sort of sickening to me when I think they are both viable candidates and have strong platforms.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Honestly it really comes down to who do you think can win the White House. They are both very good candidates, with Hillary having massive experience and being highly knowledgeable, as well as the fact that she wants to get policies done. Bernie has a plan to try and fix income disparity, health care, and honestly wants to make 'America Great' and revolutionalize the base.
That's because they are comparing Bernie and Hillary and everyone has a reason why they prefer one over the other, so they defend them and try to persuade the other side. I would wager the vast majority of people bickering would rather see either of them over a republican.
thestopsign
Member
I have basically had to stop going on Reddit due to how vicious they are towards Hillary. They are doing more damage to the democratic party then they realize by demonizing her, especially if she does end up with the nomination. There are going to be many young folk too disenfranchised to even go out and vote in the general.
That's my fear too. It's going to be a bummer if Bernie's legacy is President Ted Cruz.
Orbis Tabula
Member
I'm with you. I love them both. And I try my best not to judge either candidate by their supporters but there are a shit load of sore losers and sore winners on both sides and I'm frustrated about what such a venomous division means for the future of the party.
My original plan was to vote for Bernie in the primary with the knowledge that he would lose and I could vote for Hillary in the general. I was pretty happy to do both. Both to pledge my support for a more leftist candidate, and hopefully pull the party my way, and to vote for someone as liberal as Clinton to the presidency. But Bernie's chances have been improving and I'm still not sure how I'll vote when my primary comes up on the first.
Bernie wasn't saying gay people were divisive - I think you're assuming malicious intent where there is none.
Bernie championed extending marriage benefits to gay couples. If you followed how Vermont evolved on this, gay marriage was political suicide at the time - even proponents of civil unions were losing seats. It wasn't until 2009 when they finally legalized gay marriage, and they were following Massachussetts' lead.
As with most things this is far more nuanced than what you just suggested, but Bernie was always for any human rights concerning gay people, he just knew and made it very clear that it needed to be tackled in a series of steps.
For all of the "idealist vs realist" arguments surrounding Hillary and Bernie, this seems like one of those things we'd handwave for one and not the other.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Carson and Kasich will be out after South Carolina (barring a Kasich bounce), so the Rep debate after SC should be just four people.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
Christie is out but Carson with his 2% is still in it?
Angry Fork
Member
Hillary doesn't inspire and defend the disenfranchised so they don't vote for her.
Blame them when she loses rather than her. That makes sense.
Bernie's legacy is the young/working class embracing socialist ideas. If Hillary loses it's because supposed "liberals" didn't back the actual liberal candidate. Hillary isn't "owed" anything. We know her record, and it looks bad compared to Sanders.
People are voting for their own economic and political self interest, something liberals claim they wish right wing working class people did. Once people do it they get antsy because it turns out Hillary doesn't represent those interests.
I guess because he's polling higher than Kasich nationally? Although we don't know what the latest polls will say, Carson did terrible in NH.
thestopsign
Member
Good to hear someone has the same exact thought process as me in this. I've found the vitriol coming from every angle really awful. It's stupid, but I like to think of the democrats as the "good guys", and this cycle has really proven to me that despite ideals we can stoop as low as republicans when pushed. I guess I wish both Bernie and Hillary supporters could push a more positive agenda.
Beyond specific policy differences:
Clinton: Safe status quo option.
Sanders: Desire to shake things up.
Sanders truly is like what Trump is to other republicans. A theme this election seems to be rejection of status quo politics and desire for an attempt at something different regardless of how likely change will be.
Clinton will probably work both sides better at the expense of people thinking that she isn't pushing liberal policies hard enough. Bernie seems like in I don't give a fuck mode and will do all he can to push his policies forward through the fires at be. Bernie to me is way more appealing of an option
QuicheFontaine
Member
I've just been looking at the schedule on RCP, and it says SC is "winner takes all".
Trump is almost certain to get it, polling at ~35%. Cruz is an outside possibility on ~20%. What's certain though is that neither Carson or Kasich is going to outright win it.
So what are they waiting for? I don't really see what changes between now and then. It looks like they can't pick up one or two delegates in SC (unless I'm misunderstanding this "winner takes all" thing).
boiled goose
good with gravy
It's on both sides. She has to win them over. They have to be rational.
Big Baybee
Member
Have my doubts about this.
They're waiting for Trump to finally self-destruct and see how everything shakes out without him. It's probably naive at this point to still assume it's going to happen, as he's survived so very many campaign killing moments.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Sure... but like i said, part of it falls on her. Maybe it's not possible... if she can't appeal to them, then the dnc should also be rational putting out a more appealing candidate.
Democrats complain about young people not being engaged. You cant then turn around and say nevermind, i dont like what you have to say.
By the way... in NH Hillary only won among one demographic. Not women. Not minorities. Not older people. Not moderates. Just those making over 200k...
Sure, maybe she closes it out after SC or super Tuesday. But if I were Hillary Id be freaking out right now. Hillary s leads wont get larger. Only smaller
thestopsign
Member
I think this is a good way to state it. I am just hoping everyone becomes a little more rational once the candidates is chosen and sees the bigger picture for the general.
If Trump or Cruz are nominated, they won't need their arms twisted. The anti-Republican vote will be there.
It's going to be so depressing to vote for her just so a Republican isn't in office. I've already done enough of that for as long as I've voted. So depressing.
Prodigal Son
Member
Lol come on. 20+ is hugely impressive.
"False promise"
Okay.
It's idealism, not delusion. Bernie is suggesting objectively better things. It isn't even so much that Clinton claims that she'd like to have those things but can't deliver on them. She's outright against some of them. Maybe not now, but in the next 10 years, 50 years or 100 years, Sanders ideas need to come through. Electing him would create a generation in favor of those things, in favor of socialism. That's great because as things are, The United States is a fucking joke.
If this is what it takes for young people to be engaged, to have false unrealistic promises thrown at them ... then they're a joke.
Prodigal Son
Member
She'll have a tough fucking time with the Youth vote regardless. Hopefully with Rubio oiling his joints and updating his OS, he won't be the nom and she'll have good time beating trump. Youth voter turnout in a non-Sanders general would still be super low. The youth do not like Hillary Clinton. I doubt her presidency will change that either.
boiled goose
good with gravy
There we go.. complete dismissal. Sad day for you is that things are going to continue in this direction for a while.
You think young voters are uninformed. Nah. Millenials are more educated and better informed than older generations. Technology and social media changes the game. There is more transparency and accountability.
You see delusional optimism . They see your position as defeatist, cynical, and conforming.
Even when change is a long shot, not trying GUARANTEES it wont happen.
Seriously, if young people can't get interested without being promised unicorns then the country deserves Republican leadership.
Angry Fork
Member
Citizens should never be blamed for a politicians failure. Hillary made her choices and citizens should be allowed to judge her based on them. They're picking Bernie because he's been more consistent in his defense of ideas young/working class people care about. If he loses the nomination they have no obligation to support Hillary.
And yet Hillary is chasing Bernie, adopting the same stances he has so she doesn't look like a centrist hack.
Also anything Hillary proposes is just as pie in the sky as Bernie's. People are going with their conscience because there's no reason not to.
boiled goose
good with gravy
You dont understand the appeal of sanders or Trump for that matter. Supporters dont believe everything they promise will be achieved. What they believe is that Sanders is someone who will actually Fight for them instead of stabbing them in the back when it's politically convenient.
^i agree they have no obligation. Not voting is against their own interests. Vote Hillary then vote sanders 2.0 next time.
lol, conflating what bernie is proposing to promising unicorns
it'd be funnier if it wasn't such a depressing reflection on why we are where we are as a country
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