I said this comment was a mistake. Several times.
Hillary:"Where was Bernie when I got healthcare in 93?" Right there, she thanked him
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Tesseract
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Leona Lewis
Banned
Well, it's true.
Bernie's getting killed because he practically ignored the most reliable Democratic voting bloc and instead catered to those least likely to actually head out to the polls.
Demon_Stephen
Member
COUNTER BREAKER!
TheBritishBear
Banned
It's really sad that the people he's trying to appeal to are the most desperate in need and that he shouldn't go for the vote.
The young adults are desperately in need of someone to represent them.
Leona Lewis
Banned
Going for the young vote and going for the African-American vote need not be mutually exclusive.
Obama initially had an uphill battle with the latter group (despite his seemingly built-in advantage, blacks were rather cold on him), but he worked to earn their vote.
Bernie's utterly tone-deaf on issues that relate to minorities specifically, because he always defaults to the idea that Wall Street regulation and campaign finance reform are the panacea to systemic racism and police brutality.
Or at least he waited until BLM forced his hand to finally inch away from his two prized pigs.
What? The old guard?
Sanders wanted to change the backdrop of the left. He wanted to put pressure on Hillary to keep her eye on the left's goals, and not slip into her typical political jargon that is meant to be safe for talking over party lines.
It's less that he's ignored, and more that he has stood up as an ideological leader. Not just a political leader. He has stood up to educate, inform, and bring hope to social progress that is known to work.
I'd rather someone like that stick to their guns, rather than be a second Hillary. We need Bernie to do Bernie.
Leona Lewis
Banned
No, African-Americans.
The group Hillary's routinely been winning by margins of 80%+ that has ensured her nomination.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
And they are, by far, the more likely to say "My vote doesn't even matter," "They're all the same." which leads to even lower voter participation rates.
I was for Hillary, then I started to feel the Bern, and when the first batch of voting actually started I was back to Hillary because the Bern wasn't happening.
This is one reason why I greatly question the idea that "Bernie beats Trump, Trump beats Hillary."
Bernie can't even beat Hillary. If she loses to Trump... what was Bernie going to do? The argument could be made before voting started, but once it did and Bernie's constituency decided not to show, that argument became nothing but hot air.
Your comment about her being a super busy politician was a clear and distinct excuse/pass for her "not being able to remember" every person at every event she ever held. And now you're saying you're not doing that.
And if I'm wrong, please explain what her being a super busy politician has to do with this discussion.
"Politicians give a lot of speeches, sign a lot of cards, thank a lot of people."
And?
I generally dislike Hillary but I think this line is unfair. The Clinton's are the type of people that have always been angling for influence, yes in this reality at that exact moment Hillary was able to push for that because she was married to Bill Clinton but had Bill Clinton not won the Presidency, had Bill Clinton, I dunno, died in some alternate reality, Hillary seems like the type of Person who'd have clawed her way into government from some other angle.
While I'm not sure of Clinton's actual honest to God character as a human being and what policies and positions she really holds the one thing I'd give her is that her being in positions of power was not and is not just some hapless circumstance she found herself in, it's something she's actually fought for.
To say the only reason she's there is because she married Bill Clinton kinda belittles all that in my opinion.
Dirtyshubb
Member
I'm getting fed up with the bullshit excuses from Hillary supporters like 'its her speechwriters fault'. I'm sorry but not only do politicians sign off on every Speech they read, but the fact that she knows her Speech and still goes ahead with it and only changes her story when called out on it is very telling.
None of the excuses used by her supporters is valid and only help to show how terrible she is.
1 - it's her writers fault - she will undoubtedly sign off on her Speeches so no excuse.
2 - how can she remember old events - is this really an argument your going to make for a potential president?
3 - she actually meant something else - the examples so far (this and the aids comments) show that she is either so stupid that she doesn't remember how things actually were, she actually believes it or that she is just willing to say anything that makes a good soundbite for whatever audience she has.
None of those explanations make her a good candidate.
How anyone can stand by and defend her time and time again on issues she is clearly wrong about or at worse totally disingenuous about I really don't know. Maybe they like their politicians being traditional politicians - lying, twisting the truth to fit their needs. All I can think is that her supporter's just don't give a fuck about honesty and will support her on every 'good' answer she gives (political sound bites that mean nothing and have no truth) because otherwise are people really that ignorant?
None of the excuses used by her supporters is valid and only help to show how terrible she is.
1 - it's her writers fault - she will undoubtedly sign off on her Speeches so no excuse.
2 - how can she remember old events - is this really an argument your going to make for a potential president?
3 - she actually meant something else - the examples so far (this and the aids comments) show that she is either so stupid that she doesn't remember how things actually were, she actually believes it or that she is just willing to say anything that makes a good soundbite for whatever audience she has.
None of those explanations make her a good candidate.
How anyone can stand by and defend her time and time again on issues she is clearly wrong about or at worse totally disingenuous about I really don't know. Maybe they like their politicians being traditional politicians - lying, twisting the truth to fit their needs. All I can think is that her supporter's just don't give a fuck about honesty and will support her on every 'good' answer she gives (political sound bites that mean nothing and have no truth) because otherwise are people really that ignorant?
You said that she was pretending not to remember, I said that she probebly didn't. You brought up memory, not me.
I agree that he campaign should have known, and that this comment should not have been said. What are we arguing about?
Not My Queen
I don't think he has. Just as people say Hillary has been dogged and had her image marred by the right. It seems so too has Sanders. The discrepancies with Black voters comes down political differences on the issues. Sanders is representing a certain full package of political stances. He's made it clear he has long focused on Black issues, as well as all minorities. It doesn't change the fact that people simply differ on issues.
Bernie really doesn't do well in the South or with the Baptist population. It's the issues, it's not that he's ignored the demographic.
Leona Lewis
Banned
I don't understand what this means.
What are the "political issues" on which he differs from black voters?
Rather than the political issues he chose to ignore while his supporters pulled out dusty receipts from the 1960s?
Unknown Soldier
Member
I'm baffled as well about some of the real diehard Hillary supporters too. I never understood it in 2008 either when some people wanted Hillary over Obama. Everything about Hillary is just so yucky and feels so corrupt and soulless.
They probably did know it, but spun it incorrectly. Here messaging is not good.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
It's not like Bernie isn't mired in this as well.
He's been out there talking about all of these things he's going to do, knowing that they'd never pass a Democratic congress, let alone the split congress we're going to see next year. He's twisted Hillary's past in such a way to make it appear she's not interested in universal healthcare knowing full well, that her 90's healthcare reform was closer to his ideals than the working system we have in place.
They're trying to be elected in the most powerful position on the planet. When you're dealing with someone more politically aligned than dissimilar, you have to get into a battle of disingenuous assertions.
Or the research department wasn't talking well with comms/new media. It happens.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
This should be the fright.
Bernies revolution never happened, and Hillary's campaign is run like Gore's.
BeatnikGunsoo
Member
has hillary always dressed like a senator from space?
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
She's trying a new campaign tactic -- misremembering the past to make a point for the present/future.
Republicans do it all the time and it works
Republicans do it all the time and it works
Twice in a week the same kind of problem happens. That's a messaging problem.
Can you post some receipts for this? I've not come across this assertion. Also, can you clarify whether we're talking universal or single-payer?
thatsgood.gif
Agreed.
Dirtyshubb
Member
But bernies position is that the current medical system is terrible and needs to be a certain way to actually work for the people. Hillary may have argued for something better than what you have right now but that doesn't mean it is enough in bernies eyes.
From everything I have seem him say about Hillary he hasn't said that she hasn't done good work on things, just pointing out the truth in that it wasn't dramatic enough (for him) or that she didn't always believe the stances she now supposedly does which are both fair positions to have.
UnforgivenTwin
Member
Bow down to the mighty pantsuit!
Corrupt and soulless?
Have you ever looked into her voting record? The bills she's co-sponsored? The things she's actually fought for as a politician on the main stage?
Nobody is saying Hillary Clinton is perfect. She's gaffed in ways that not even I can't attempt to smooth over. And nobody's saying you can't like other politicians. But there is a reason Hillary Clinton gets so much support from her party. There's a reason she has fans. And there's a reason why she's soundly beating Bernie Sanders at the moment, and it's not because we're all ignorant (as someone on this page just tried to claim).
But saying that she's corrupt and soulless just sounds like you don't know who you're talking about.
Single-payer is a form of universal healthcare.
Leona Lewis
Banned
Her campaign style is straight up Hunger Games Effie Trinket/dystopian villainess realness.
abuelallah
Hillary has a tunic for every occasion.
Leona Lewis
Banned
Yes, I said "pretend" because I am not willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, given how often she misrepresents the truth. I'm close to simply calling her a liar.
She can say with full confidence that he wasn't there? What led her to that belief? Nothing, which is why her statement is inappropriate and irresponsible.
And we're arguing about what you implied when you said politicians "give a lot of speeches, sign a lot of cards, and thank a lot of people." People all over the world in their every day lives give a lot of speeches, sign a lot of cards, and thank a lot of people.
So I ask again: and? I'm not going to start saying things about someone that I'm not even positive about.
timetokill
Banned
Considering her statements on Nancy Reagan, maybe she's losing her marbles and was literally asking where he was because she can't remember.
I really think you are being a little irrational with your expectations. No, the vast majority people in the world do not interact with the numbers of others in the way politicians do, and most people aren't expected to remember all aspects of an interaction 26 years prior. You are being unreasonable.
deranged_666
Member
If Hillary is the nominee, I really don't know if I can vote for her. I say this as a liberal who is willing to stomach a lot of things, give benefit of the doubt, etc. But she is horrible.
I'm still upset over the reprehensible way she defended dragging her campaign out in 2008, bringing up Bobby Kennedy's assassination and linking that to then Senator Obama. You know..just in case.
Just in this last week, she's said some major things that have all completely blown up in her face and re-exposed her for what she is. This is 2008 all over again. The dirty politics. The lying. The exaggerations in order to make herself appear grander than she really is (this time, it was praising the Reagans for their devotion to talking about the AIDS epidemic...back in 2008, it was the entire Bosnia sniper-fire lie, which CBS exposed her for).
I had hoped, with all of my heart, that 2016 Hillary Clinton was a different, better candidate, and quite frankly, person, than 2008 Hillary Clinton. My hopes were wrong. Clinton is just as much of an absolute liar as Trump.
But then...the entire Supreme Court nominations weigh on me...and I just don't know. I don't know.
I'm still upset over the reprehensible way she defended dragging her campaign out in 2008, bringing up Bobby Kennedy's assassination and linking that to then Senator Obama. You know..just in case.
Just in this last week, she's said some major things that have all completely blown up in her face and re-exposed her for what she is. This is 2008 all over again. The dirty politics. The lying. The exaggerations in order to make herself appear grander than she really is (this time, it was praising the Reagans for their devotion to talking about the AIDS epidemic...back in 2008, it was the entire Bosnia sniper-fire lie, which CBS exposed her for).
I had hoped, with all of my heart, that 2016 Hillary Clinton was a different, better candidate, and quite frankly, person, than 2008 Hillary Clinton. My hopes were wrong. Clinton is just as much of an absolute liar as Trump.
But then...the entire Supreme Court nominations weigh on me...and I just don't know. I don't know.
I'm not going to speak for every black voter. But Sanders has continually addressed Black issues and minority issues. What else is in the way of Sanders gaining the black vote? Maybe it's the issues? Maybe it's Hillary being a familiar candidate.
What are the issues that he ignored?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
This is the old man in me chiming in, but I can't actually find what I'm looking for, so it might not have happened. In which case my apologies to Bernie for misrepresenting his position.
So she's just incompetent? Why would you attack someone on something without doing your homework? Especially considering the postcard went viral a few months back?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
At this point I blame you Tesse.
All this Bern feeling and you can't even turn out your crew.
"For that, I'm sorry."
And now the circle continues when I ask "so it's OK to say whatever you want?", and then you say "no, that's not what I'm saying."
You're making an excuse for her without actually saying it.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
God no!"For that, I'm sorry."
I'm a politician at heart.
We can misrepresent, out and out lie, but "I'm sorry?"
That's a bridge too far.
Leona Lewis
Banned
He ignored the systemic racism that has prevented even upper-middle class black families from entering decent neighborhoods and school systems (the statistics are out there, and poor whites fare better than blacks making salaries in the low triple digits!), from having equal access to loans for entrepreneurship or even just homeownership, from having protection from job discrimination, etc.
It's more than just police brutality and shootings.
Sanders' reform-minded message didn't reach these people because it did not address the underlying prejudices and obstacles that they face. Instead, he stuck to his "rising tide lifts all ships" rhetoric that only saw economic inequality where blacks (rightly) see normalized racism.
Now you answer my question.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Statistically, no matter who the Dem nominee is (Hillary), they'll have a built-in electoral advantage. But it's kind of disheartening that our options are foot-in-mouth candidate A, and foot-in-mouth candidate B.
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