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[CornBurrito]

For those of you who want to see a helpful chart of cognitive development that corresponds to ideas of "God" (based of of actually psychological and cognitive theory) here you go.

There's a book (Big Gods I think is the title), that talks about how the concept of God has changed as societies have grown. Interestingly, gods got bigger and bigger (and more concerned with issues of human morality) as societies grew in size. Hunter gatherers were more about vague spirits and gods that didn't give two fucks about humans being bad to each other.

 

[Mr Waluigi]

There's a book (Big Gods I think is the title), that talks about how the concept of God has changed as societies have grown. Interestingly, gods got bigger and bigger (and more concerned with issues of human morality) as societies grew in size. Hunter gatherers were more about vague spirits and gods that didn't give two fucks about humans being bad to each other.

For similar books, there's A History Of God and The Great Transformation, both by Karen Armstrong. There's some obvious bias (she is a mystic Christian) but still interesting reads.

 

[Cipherr]

I'm always disturbed by people that believe morality stems from religion and not from personal desire and values.....

Like... Wow.

 

[News Bot]

I'm always disturbed by people that believe morality stems from religion and not from personal desire and values.....

Like... Wow.

Indoctrination will do that.

 

[DOWN]

Humans can have a developed conscience and choose the principles they agree to follow. The meaning of life is to go find joy and do your best and be happy with yourself. It's bizarre to me when anyone falls into that "but what's the point of life?" thing if they aren't religious.

 

[Mr Waluigi]

Humans can have a developed conscience and choose the principles they agree to follow. The meaning of life is to go find joy and do your best and be happy with yourself. It's bizarre to me when anyone falls into that "but what's the point of life?" thing if they aren't religious.

I guess the same reason some people are scared to death about passing away. Fear of the unknow can throw the mind into a vicious circle (there is no God -> we're alone -> we're just meat with chemical reactions -> nothing ever mattered or ever will -> I will die and it won't count because there is no God -> we're alone -> ...)

Unfortunately more common than it seems. People need to stop thinking sometimes.

 

[Fenderputty]

One is spiritually fulfilling, one is material/physical/emotional.

It's like saying that breathing isn't altruistic. It's not something you can control,

What does involuntarily breathing have to do with this convo? It's not something we can actively control. We CAN actively control how we act towards one another. Regardless of whether you do that for spiritual reasons or for emotional reasons, neither is true altruism as both acts have a self fulling end. So why should one be more meaningful?

 

[mentallyinept]

I guess the same reason some people are scared to death about passing away. Fear of the unknow can throw the mind into a vicious circle (there is no God -> we're alone -> we're just meat with chemical reactions -> nothing ever mattered or ever will -> I will die and it won't count because there is no God -> we're alone -> ...)

Unfortunately more common than it seems. People need to stop thinking sometimes.

Or think about it in another way.

there is no God -> we're alone -> we're just meat with chemical reactions -> nothing ever mattered or ever will to the universe -> I will die one day so I might as well enjoy the time I have and not be a dick.

 

[Ophelion]

I'm digging the interesting concepts being drawn up by both atheists and theists in this thread. The overall vibe of respect in here is admirable and deeply enjoyable. It always makes me sad when people who believe and people who don't can't even talk about this stuff without degrading into shit slinging. Even fundamental differences in how we view the world should not preclude respect for other people, but too often it seems like it comes to that. I fully expected this thread to degenerate into pointless name calling as so many of them do.

I'm honestly much more fascinated by TheOctodad's thoughts on this stuff than I am some of my fellow atheists who are clearly in it for the echo chamber (not specifically in this thread, just in life.) He at least has clearly thought all this through. As a result, his views on this stuff are fascinating and I feel like we can all learn something of value through actual discourse and mutual respect, even if we might disagree on quite a few things. After all, a person of faith isn't going to lose it from just talking to someone who doesn't have it and someone whose secular understanding of the universe can't stand up to scrutiny has no understanding at all.

 

[Deadstar]

There must be a creator because you do not get something from nothing. The size of the universe is very difficult to imagine, especially if it is infinite. That is my view.

I don't need a religion to tell me not to hurt someone. There are societal behaviors that make sense that have nothing to do with religion.

 

[Trumpets]

Lots of fluffy, 'Hey, life is what YOU make of it! YOU find the meaning in YOUR life!' sentiment in this thread, but it misses the point that the base level of reality in a godless universe is just a few physical laws and a load of atoms.

If this is what everything is built on, then how can there be any meaning? Nothing that exists was intended to exist, it just happened due the the laws of physics, and any meaning you create for yourself has no worth because YOU are a meaningless pile of atoms.

 

[Ophelion]

Lots of fluffy, 'Hey, life is what YOU make of it! YOU find the meaning in YOUR life!' sentiment in this thread, but it misses the point that the base level of reality in a godless universe is just a few physical laws and a load of atoms.

If this is what everything is built on, then how can there be any meaning? Nothing that exists was intended to exist, it just happened due the the laws of physics, and any meaning you create for yourself has no worth because YOU are a meaningless pile of atoms.

Your desire for meaning is just a human construct in your all too human mind. Why would the answer not be the same?

 

[Fenderputty]

There must be a creator because you do not get something from nothing. The size of the universe is very difficult to imagine, especially if it is infinite. That is my view.

I don't need a religion to tell me not to hurt someone. There are societal behaviors that make sense that have nothing to do with religion.

I can't explain something therefore God.

There's other theories out there for the origins of the universe. Including an eternal universe or a multiverse.

Lots of fluffy, 'Hey, life is what YOU make of it! YOU find the meaning in YOUR life!' sentiment in this thread, but it misses the point that the base level of reality in a godless universe is just a few physical laws and a load of atoms.

If this is what everything is built on, then how can there be any meaning? Nothing that exists was intended to exist, it just happened due the the laws of physics, and any meaning you create for yourself has no worth because YOU are a meaningless pile of atoms.

If you can't find personal meaning to life, maybe you would like Neil Degrass Tyson's. He thinks consciousness is the way for the universe to know it exists. Without us, all this beauty and wonder goes unnoticed and unappreciated. Without us it really is just atoms.

 

[shem935]

Lots of fluffy, 'Hey, life is what YOU make of it! YOU find the meaning in YOUR life!' sentiment in this thread, but it misses the point that the base level of reality in a godless universe is just a few physical laws and a load of atoms.

If this is what everything is built on, then how can there be any meaning? Nothing that exists was intended to exist, it just happened due the the laws of physics, and any meaning you create for yourself has no worth because YOU are a meaningless pile of atoms.

There isn't meaning provided in the universe but you can provide it. I think this is an out, just as religion is man providing meaning by constructing a scenario in which their death matters. Read Camus's The Rebel.

 

[Deadstar]

I can't explain something therefore God.

There's other theories out there for the origins of the universe. Including an eternal universe or a multiverse.

Yeah, my main concern is what is the universe? How did it get there? How is it possible it is infinite? If you put a robot on a spaceship and sent it traveling incredibly fast through space and allowed it to somehow send back images to Earth what would we see? It took, what, 8 years to get to Pluto? It's mind boggling how large space is.

Maybe our galaxy is just a marble like in men in black.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

The athiest also loses any concept of a fixed morality. If different cultures have different (or even opposing) moral values, why should I follow any of them? Why not just make up my own morality where I can do whatever I want? It would be no more or less authentic than any other.

This is true. It's crazy isn't it? You have the freedom to do whatever you want. So what do you choose to do with that freedom? What does it mean to you? To the people in your life? To people everywhere? To the planet? To the cosmos?

If your answer to all of that is "nothing" then I feel that that is failure of imagination on your part rather than a failure of meaning in the universe.

The athiest also loses any concept of a fixed morality. If different cultures have different (or even opposing) moral values, why should I follow any of them? Why not just make up my own morality where I can do whatever I want? It would be no more or less authentic than any other.

So is there any logical way out of this nihilistic mindset where a person is ultimately no more important than a pile of mud? Sure you can set your own goals (get a promotion, have kids, own a Porsche) but in a godless universe those goals are as meaningless as everything else. Your job, children and shiny car are as meaningless as you are and everything else is.

From who's perspective? An objective one? Why should any flesh and blood person care about that in a non-ontological sense?

 

[Kwixotik]

Just graduate to existentialism or absurdism

 

[RaySpencer]

More atheists should be agnostic. I understand not believing in the gods that religions have, but to say you absolutely know there isn't anything past our universe seems just as silly.


Who knows what's out there!

 

[Funyarinpa]

Lots of fluffy, 'Hey, life is what YOU make of it! YOU find the meaning in YOUR life!' sentiment in this thread, but it misses the point that the base level of reality in a godless universe is just a few physical laws and a load of atoms.

If this is what everything is built on, then how can there be any meaning? Nothing that exists was intended to exist, it just happened due the the laws of physics, and any meaning you create for yourself has no worth because YOU are a meaningless pile of atoms.

Meaning does not exist in the physical world. However, there's another "dimension" of existence- the mass exodus of all interactions of human consciousnesses. Surely you do realize there are connections between humans that don't transcribe in full to chemicals? Yes, they ARE denoted in chemicals in the brain, but while it doesn't matter to the physical universe whatever you want to do, the existence of other humans give us the ability to temporarily alter the human consciousnesses around us. Meaning does not reside in the physical world, but between human minds. It's all one big illusion, in other words. That said, that does not mean the illusion isn't without merit- the illusion can still matter. To other humans, that is.

Meaning is something brought about by the human consciousness, and only other human minds are subjected to it. Whatever "meaning" you have is almost completely defined relative to other humans, in other words.

Physically, meaning is an illusion. However, meaning is also the foundation of a whole other method of existence: Conscious human thought.

 

[Fenderputty]

Maybe our galaxy is just a marble like in men in black.

This doesn't seem any more or less likely than God to me. Maybe we're the matrix. We don't know. Simple as that.

If God can be eternal why not the universe?

 

[Orayn]

Lots of fluffy, 'Hey, life is what YOU make of it! YOU find the meaning in YOUR life!' sentiment in this thread, but it misses the point that the base level of reality in a godless universe is just a few physical laws and a load of atoms.

If this is what everything is built on, then how can there be any meaning? Nothing that exists was intended to exist, it just happened due the the laws of physics, and any meaning you create for yourself has no worth because YOU are a meaningless pile of atoms.

Some cool people considered these exact questions and concluded that having an opportunity to rebel at an apparently meaningless universe is a pretty worthwhile pursuit in itself. It's a common thread in absurdism, existentialism, and similar lines of thought.

 

[adj_noun]

More atheists should be agnostic. I understand not believing in the gods that religions have, but to say you absolutely know there isn't anything past our universe seems just as silly.


Who knows what's out there!

Most of the atheists you'll talk to on this forum are agnostic atheists.

 

[mentallyinept]

More atheists should be agnostic. I understand not believing in the gods that religions have, but to say you absolutely know there isn't anything past our universe seems just as silly.


Who knows what's out there!

Atheism and Agnosticism answer two different questions.

And before someone posts the chart, please keep in mind that the answer to the question "Do you believe in a god/gods?" is a true binary. It's either "Yes" or "Not Yes". There is no middle ground there.

Edit: and I was too slow... dammit.

 

[cereal_killerxx]

My morality comes from empathy for others and the lessons and education i learned from growing up in society. I don't think anyone has a truly fixed morality point. We all grow and make changes to ourselves in life. I used to think gay marriage was immoral, but now I think its fine. But that doesnt mean you abandon it when things get tough. To me, what really keeps me together when things are terrible is other people like family and friends who are there to care for me and motivate me. I don't think that a fixed point in morality really exists, even christianity has changed its moral values a lot in the past few centuries. The closest thing you can get is the comfort of loved ones.

That being said, if you get that feeling with god, thats fine too. But neither is better to me.

Thanks for keeping a very civil conversation! Love you, man.

Funny how slave owners used the same exact argument, quoting the Bible verses as an infallible moral warrant to justify their world view.

What you meant to say is your interpretation never changes, and you find confort in that moral touchstone.

I suppose that would be a more accurate description. People most certainly have done some rather horrible and evil things in the name of Christianity. That doesn't point to a flawed God, just flawed people. I'm by no means perfect. I fail every single day.

It's called empathy.

The argument that religion keeps people on the right track in times of darkness is contradicted by all the examples of religious belief being used to lead people astray.

A gun can be used to murder people and destroy lives... or it can be used for protection. It's all in how you use it.

How many children have you stoned to death for cursing at their parents?

How many women who were raped did you kill if they would not wed their rapists?

How many slaves have you killed for disobeying their masters?

Do you wear fabric blends?

Do you eat shellfish?

I'll be eagerly awaiting your replies!





Great post.

All of these questions are based out of the Old Testament of the Bible. This is what's commonly referred to as "The Law." As a follower of Christ, I am not under "The Law." I am under God's grace. "The Law" was put in place by God to show people that it was impossible to keep. "The Law" was put in place to show everyone that we need a savior.

In the end the Bible is not a law book or a book of regulations, the whole point of it is to get into a relationship with God. God loves us all and desires a relationship with us. That's why God sent Jesus on that cross to die for our sins. Because of His love for us. Because He wants to get close to us. But love comes packaged with free will. You can't have love without free will. So we have to choose Him. So I may not be able to answer all of your questions, but I do know that God loves you.

Edit: Without having my bible handy, I can at least answer one of those for you. With regards to the shellfish thing, there is no longer a ban on what we can eat as per the book of Acts (Chapter 10) when God gave Peter the dream. Technically, even sooner than that when Jesus said, "It's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you; you are defiled by the words that come out of your mouth." Matthew 15:11.

 

[Karsticles]

In what sense? Do you think I have misunderstood Nietzsche, or are you trying to say you don't share his thoughts on this?

I don't share his thoughts or your agreement with him. Nihilism is not based on a negative outlook on humanity and it does not intrinsically support a worldview of indifference or isolationism (or "No!"). While I'm sure it applies to some particularly weak-willed individuals, nihilism in general does not promote these.

Nietzsche's views on nihilism are flawed for the sole reason that he refuses to acknowledge it beyond its position as a foil to "Christian values", claiming it to be merely the impetus of a psychological crisis, which I've never experienced as embracing nihilism is the only true sense of liberation I've had thus far. Nihilism does not promote negativity, acknowledging that life has no meaning is not a criticism of life. While there is no meaning or purpose to the nature of existence, that doesn't mean that meaning or purpose can't be found, or created in the case with every religion. The problem with many religions however is that the "strength" it gives doesn't come from the individual, it's illusory and amounts to not much more than indoctrination. It's the self in conflict (or at peace) with an amalgamation of reality and fantasy. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

In my view, nihilism promotes true liberty of the self. Meaninglessness is not despair, it is freedom. Nietzsche's quote posted earlier is a more accurate portrayal of nihilism than most of his actual thoughts on it. He viewed nihilism as the outcome of frustrations in the search for meaning, when in reality it is more of a door to being able to create meaning. Frustrations surrounding it stem from the inner conflict of a few, not from nihilism itself. Some people despair at the thought of being given complete agency over life and self, but this despair is not nihilism to me.

All in my opinion, anyway. I'm still a fan of Nietzsche.

Nietzsche often uses the same word to mean different things. When he uses the word "nihilist", he could be referencing three separate ideas:

1) Christian Nihilism - the negation of life and movement toward nothingness; Christianity does not feel itself to be nihilistic, but from the atheistic perspective Nietzsche has, it aims toward nothing and denies life. While the atheist has only life to value, the Christian decides that this life we live now has no value, and only the life beyond has meaning. However, since that life is non-existent, Christians value nothing at all.

2) Negative Nihilism - the realization that the universe is a cold and unloving place, and thus the belief that one's life has no meaning. This is the kind of nihilism the OP is talking about, and it is a nihilism that Nietzsche is fighting against because he believes that it is a natural post-Christian tendency.

3) Positive Nihilism - the realization that the universe is a cold and unloving place, and that is perfectly fine. While life has no objective meaning, the positive nihilist has come to realize that the valuation of the universe takes place solely within his/her own mind, and he/she can choose what meaning life has. This is could also be called a "happy nihilism", because the burden of God has been destroyed, but the shadow of God, negative nihilism, has been destroyed as well. What is left is a love of life.

I think the main reason people struggle to read Nietzsche is that they do not catch these subtleties; Nietzsche does us no favors, and uses the terms interchangeably. His goal is not necessarily to help us understand him, but rather to create introspection.

More atheists should be agnostic. I understand not believing in the gods that religions have, but to say you absolutely know there isn't anything past our universe seems just as silly.


Who knows what's out there!

Agnostics are atheists. The term "agnostic" is synonymous with "weak atheist".

 

[Horseticuffs]

I'm all in on the objective meaninglessness of life. That's how I live, that is how I raise my children. They've known that we're just a cosmic accident that'll one day be wiped out by the sun and that the mathematical likelihood of anyone ever popping around to even discover we existed is astonishingly low.

It's cool. We enjoy life and each other's company. We appreciate the time we have and try to assign meaning to it whenever possible. We ride bikes and play video games and walk dogs, and play volleyball in the back yard. We don't sit around in graveyards listening to The Smiths and writing poems.

Like I always tell them in some phrasing or another; it doesn't matter if we like it this way or not, we can't change it.

I've been an atheist for nearly twenty years now and both my daughters were born that way. All the cool kids lack any belief in objective meaning

 

[Ophelion]

More atheists should be agnostic. I understand not believing in the gods that religions have, but to say you absolutely know there isn't anything past our universe seems just as silly.


Who knows what's out there!

Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. You can have an agnostic atheist, just as surely as you can have an agnostic believer. When looking at the beliefs of most atheists, they are agnostic atheists whether they choose to self-identify that way or not.

With very rare exception, atheists are not stating that they know what is out there. Only that if someone is stating they know, they had best have proof.

 

[TheOctodad]

Edit: Without having my bible handy, I can at least answer one of those for you. With regards to the shellfish thing, there is no longer a ban on what we can eat as per the book of Acts (Chapter 10) when God gave Peter the dream. Technically, even sooner than that when Jesus said, "It's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you; you are defiled by the words that come out of your mouth." Matthew 15:11.

Alright, so let's start with this question:

Why did God give people the "old law" if he was going to retcon it?

Doesn't that mean God's morality changed based on culture/Jesus?

 

[RaySpencer]

Most of the atheists you'll talk to on this forum are agnostic atheists.

Ive seen that chart, and I don't like it! Put me in the middle of those agnostic sides! I don't believe or not believe there isn't something out there.

Atheism and Agnosticism answer two different questions.

And before someone posts the chart, please keep in mind that the answer to the question "Do you believe in a god/gods?" is a true binary. It's either "Yes" or "Not Yes". There is no middle ground there.

Edit: and I was too slow... dammit.

That question shouldn't be binary. COULD a god exist is more binary.

But yeah, I always forget that agnostic and athiest are different things, so carry on people!

 

[TaterTots]

I've accepted for years that nothing truly matters. The best we can do is not be miserable. Have a roof over our head, food in the stomach, find something to laugh at.

 

[mentallyinept]

Ive seen that chart, and I don't like it! Put me in the middle of those agnostic sides! I don't believe or not believe there isn't something out there.

That question shouldn't be binary. COULD a god exist is more binary.

But yeah, I always forget that agnostic and athiest are different things, so carry on people!

It most definitely is.

Theism requires a positive belief in a god or gods. "I believe in <insert god concept here>".

Anything other than that is atheism. That includes, "No", "I don't know", etc.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Thanks for keeping a very civil conversation! Love you, man.

I suppose that would be a more accurate description. People most certainly have done some rather horrible and evil things in the name of Christianity. That doesn't point to a flawed God, just flawed people. I'm by no means perfect. I fail every single day.

A gun can be used to murder people and destroy lives... or it can be used for protection. It's all in how you use it.


All of these questions are based out of the Old Testament of the Bible. This is what's commonly referred to as "The Law." As a follower of Christ, I am not under "The Law." I am under God's grace. "The Law" was put in place by God to show people that it was impossible to keep. "The Law" was put in place to show everyone that we need a savior.

In the end the Bible is not a law book or a book of regulations, the whole point of it is to get into a relationship with God. God loves us all and desires a relationship with us. That's why God sent Jesus on that cross to die for our sins. Because of His love for us. Because He wants to get close to us. But love comes packaged with free will. You can't have love without free will. So we have to choose Him. So I may not be able to answer all of your questions, but I do know that God loves you.

Edit: Without having my bible handy, I can at least answer one of those for you. With regards to the shellfish thing, there is no longer a ban on what we can eat as per the book of Acts (Chapter 10) when God gave Peter the dream. Technically, even sooner than that when Jesus said, "It's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you; you are defiled by the words that come out of your mouth." Matthew 15:11.

So God made a rulebook to trick people into thinking they could follow a rulebook? And then he makes rules anyway and then changes them?

This whole trickster God idea is so over the top I can't process it. I totally respect your beliefs but jeez, that would take a whole new level of mental gymnastics for me to accept as true.

 

[TheOctodad]

I'm curious when people who are agnostic/atheist say, "Nothing is truly meaningful" because it seems like many of you have found great meaning in life through music, nature, family, etc.

I guess I fail to see how your created meaning holds less value because, "it's all an accident." What is it about God that makes love, family, nature, etc. meaningful, that doesn't allow a cosmic accident to also be "meaningful?" How do you understand these two perspectives to be opposed?

 

[ChouGoku]

I find much solace in knowing nothing matters. No one is better than me and I am better than no one because its all nothing. I guess i get my morality from Jesus as I used to be a Christian and think he had a pretty good point of being nice, not hurting anyone, and minding your own fucking business and not judge anyone because we are all fuck niggas at the end of the day. But I guess thats the same as getting my morality from Goku so idk how I feel about that.

 

[LCGeek]

I've been an athiest for as long as I've thought seriously about the topic of god and religion, which followed a childhood that was pretty much secular anyway. I then went on to do physics at university and have followed a mostly scientific career path. I'm about as secure in my athiesm as I can be, basically, and I very much doubt that will ever change.

But if you really take athiesm to it's logical conclusion, what are you left with? If everything is mindless atoms bumping into each other, with no guiding hand, then by definition there is no purpose in anything, no 'meaning of life', nothing but a howling chaos.

The athiest also loses any concept of a fixed morality. If different cultures have different (or even opposing) moral values, why should I follow any of them? Why not just make up my own morality where I can do whatever I want? It would be no more or less authentic than any other.

So is there any logical way out of this nihilistic mindset where a person is ultimately no more important than a pile of mud? Sure you can set your own goals (get a promotion, have kids, own a Porsche) but in a godless universe those goals are as meaningless as everything else. Your job, children and shiny car are as meaningless as you are and everything else is.

Umm...discuss.

Why....

This argument walks itself in to one wall I see you didn't think of or maybe don't want too. Some atheists will bitch at how cruel the universe is if there is a god that has fated all this. The flipside is that now you're whining it's all meaningless when a fated system would inevitably screw people even more than the one we have. I can accept chaos I will not tolerate willful maliciousness or suffering.

 

[mentallyinept]

I'm curious when people who are agnostic/atheist say, "Nothing is truly meaningful" because it seems like many of you have found great meaning in life through music, nature, family, etc.

I guess I fail to see how your created meaning holds less value because, "it's all an accident." What is it about God that makes love, family, nature, etc. meaningful, that doesn't allow a cosmic accident to also be "meaningful?" How do you understand these two perspectives to be opposed?

My created meaning doesn't hold less value to me.

A lot of times when an atheist says "Nothing is truly meaningful" they are speaking from the perspective of the universe, not personal meaning.

 

[MajinSweet4]

Lots of fluffy, 'Hey, life is what YOU make of it! YOU find the meaning in YOUR life!' sentiment in this thread, but it misses the point that the base level of reality in a godless universe is just a few physical laws and a load of atoms.

If this is what everything is built on, then how can there be any meaning? Nothing that exists was intended to exist, it just happened due the the laws of physics, and any meaning you create for yourself has no worth because YOU are a meaningless pile of atoms.

Why does intention matter? We are here, we can contemplate that. Frankly, why does it matter how we arrived to this? It's an interesting curiosity sure, but to hinge everything on that doesn't make sense to me. This also goes back to my first post in this thread. Why does something lack value because it came to being without a creator or God? The value of something should be judged based on it's quality, not the person who made it. If thinking about a Godless universe makes you for example think of people as a mass of atoms, you're thinking about things entirely the wrong way.

 

[Horseticuffs]

I'm curious when people who are agnostic/atheist say, "Nothing is truly meaningful" because it seems like many of you have found great meaning in life through music, nature, family, etc.

I guess I fail to see how your created meaning holds less value because, "it's all an accident." What is it about God that makes love, family, nature, etc. meaningful, that doesn't allow a cosmic accident to also be "meaningful?" How do you understand these two perspectives to be opposed?

For my family in particular we just don't think that there's anything out there assigning meaning to anything objectively. It's all on the beholder.

Morality and meaning are up to each person to find.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

I've accepted for years that nothing truly matters. The best we can do is not be miserable. Have a roof over our head, food in the stomach, find something to laugh at, fall in love, build friendships, make and consume art, explore, create, engineer, heal, compose, etc. etc. etc..

Fixed.

Good deal, if you ask me.

 

[RaySpencer]

It most definitely is.

Theism requires a positive belief in a god or gods. "I believe in <insert god concept here>".

Anything other than that is atheism. That includes, "No", "I don't know", etc.

Well I don't like being grouped in with people who say 'there is absouluty no gods anywhere' any more than the people who believe. Haha

Put me in the middle away from both crazy sides.

 

[adj_noun]

I'm curious when people who are agnostic/atheist say, "Nothing is truly meaningful" because it seems like many of you have found great meaning in life through music, nature, family, etc.

It's not something I've ever particularly agreed with. The smallest actions can be meaningful. If you solely look at things on a galactic scale, fine, you're a mote of dust, but on the scale in which we live, we have the opportunity for meaning every day.

 

[TheOctodad]

My created meaning doesn't hold less value to me.

A lot of times when an atheist says "Nothing is truly meaningful" they are speaking from the perspective of the universe, not personal meaning.

Right, I'm struggling to make my question clear here, pardon me. I guess I'm trying to understand how that is much different if there is a God? What "meaning" do you think that grants? I guess to me, agnostic, deist, atheist, alike are all finding significance in love, acceptance and care for each other. Regardless of it last for eternity, or is a blip on the radar of the cosmic evolutionary cycle, it still seems to me that there is meaning in it.

My point is, I don't think theist and atheist are as far apart from what they enjoy and find significance in. Instead, I think it's that deist see that experience as something that is infused with some sort of divine possibility of further significance in the future. Yet, I'm not sure the lack of future significance robs the joys of the moment of all meaning.

Given that most Christians even have a foggy understanding of what their ideas of "eternity" actually entail, it seems the best course of action is to be present and grateful for the "meaning" in this moment right now. And let go of it mattering in the future, because the only moment we can truly experience anything in is the present.

 

[Ophelion]

Well I don't like being grouped in with people who say 'there is absouluty no gods anywhere' any more than the people who believe. Haha

Put me in the middle away from both crazy sides.

I'm gunna say again: it's not crazy to ask for proof when someone asserts a claim. Especially one as major as the existence of a creator force in the universe. Or any other cosmicly powerful being one might call a god. That is all Atheism is. That is it. Everything beyond that is bias or personal belief of the individual. Those personal beliefs can be provably wrong without a purely secular position being inherently unsupportable.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[Aaronrules380]

It's not something I've ever particularly agreed with. The smallest actions can be meaningful. If you solely look at things on a galactic scale, fine, you're a mote of dust, but on the scale in which we live, we have the opportunity for meaning every day.

Yeah, I think people get to caught up with the idea that meaningfulness only exists within some large scale. If you can make a sad person happy, even if only for a few hours, why is that not meaningful? Just because they might return to the state they were in before doesn't change the fact that you gave them a few hours of happiness that wouldn't exist before. Saving a person's life isn't meaningless because they'd eventually die anyways, since the extra time on this earth in and of itself has meaning. Peace doesn't need to last forever to be meaningful, etc.

 

[Futureman]

I have nihilistic thoughts from time to time and I don't consider myself an atheist... I'd consider myself a strong agnostic w/ some cautiously optimistic spiritual feelings.

I am super kind and think everyone should be treated the same though... so I do have a strong sense in my head of what is morally right.

 

[mentallyinept]

Well I don't like being grouped in with people who say 'there is absouluty no gods anywhere' any more than the people who believe. Haha

Put me in the middle away from both crazy sides.

Now we are at the crux of the matter.

It sounds like you are an Agnostic Atheist but have a misunderstanding about what atheist means.

Atheist in it's most simple definition means that you do not have a positive belief in a god or gods. Nothing more. It is a lack of belief not a belief in non-existence.

"I do not believe in a god/gods" != "There are no god/gods".

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

More atheists should be agnostic. I understand not believing in the gods that religions have, but to say you absolutely know there isn't anything past our universe seems just as silly.


Who knows what's out there!

It's just that there is every reason to reject the concept of god entirely, and no rational reason to hold it in any regard as a legitimate possibility. The very idea of a god is an entirely human concept, and the definition of what the god is and is responsible for has evolved with civilization over time (as has been stated in a post earlier in the thread). It's a silly idea to even entertain, basically.

All of religion's claims and ideas are transparently rooted in human imagination. Originally meant to explain a mysterious world to humans leading cruel, short lives, the notion of god slowly evolved into simplistic concepts that anyone could come up with to manipulate others. If thousands of years of religion can't produce anything that isn't laughable in their salesmanship of a god, why should people lower their intellect to that level in order to accept god as a possibility? That we don't know how the universe came to be is not enough.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Right, I'm struggling to make my question clear here, pardon me. I guess I'm trying to understand how that is much different if there is a God? What "meaning" do you think that grants? I guess to me, agnostic, deist, atheist, alike are all finding significance in love, acceptance and care for each other. Regardless of it last for eternity, or is a blip on the radar of the cosmic evolutionary cycle, it still seems to me that there is meaning in it.

My point is, I don't think theist and atheist are as far apart from what they enjoy and find significance in. Instead, I think it's that deist see that experience as something that is infused with some sort of divine possibility of further significance in the future. Yet, I'm not sure the lack of future significance robs the joys of the moment of all meaning.

Given that most Christians even have a foggy understanding of what their ideas of "eternity" actually entail, it seems the best course of action is to be present and grateful for the "meaning" in this moment right now. And let go of it mattering in the future, because the only moment we can truly experience anything in is the present.

This perfectly encapsulates my feelings on the subject and general approach to life. Great post.

 

[sca2511]

More atheists should be agnostic. I understand not believing in the gods that religions have, but to say you absolutely know there isn't anything past our universe seems just as silly.


Who knows what's out there!

Aren't atheists agnostic by default? We lack the belief of a higher power, but we can't say that objectively, it doesn't exist. You can say the same thing about the tooth fairy, Greek gods, or Santa though.

 

[Screaming Meat]

While there is no meaning or purpose to the nature of existence, that doesn't mean that meaning or purpose can't be found, or created in the case with every religion.

Eh, that sounds closer to Existentialism than pure Nihilism, which Nietzsche was arguably one of the forefathers of (along with Kierkegaard).