Support NeoGAF

[meanspartan]

But some GAF posters said Devs wanted new tech.

This, along with Giant Bombcast crew always complaining about how "weak" these consoles are, never fails to make me roll my eyes.

Damn near all my friends on Ps4 are still in awe of its graphics. Does it chug on games like Witcher 3 occasionally? Sure. ( And I bet NEO will too as devs will push what they want it to do)

Overall though, most people are stunned by the graphics of Battlefront and Dark Souls and the like. We don't need a power boost right now, wait a few years and do a proper new console. Don't kill the console cycle we've had for over 30 years now.

 

[Morts]

My point with the Hyrule Warriors comparison is that it exists. You can see an example where a developer creates a game that utilizes a particular piece of more powerful hardware, and due to the games also having to run on a less powerful piece of hardware you get a game that runs badly and attempts more than the hardware is capable of.

Sure, but don't buy that one. There's no scenario where that game would be good on that platform, so you aren't missing out.

 

[benny_a]

Will all existing games need a "4K patch"?

The only way to get better running will require your game to be compatible with the newest SDK that supports the new hardware and the developer going in and doing the work.
(Which can be hard or difficult depending on your engine and version number of that engine. As later ones can break functionality you've depended on.)

 

[HowZatOZ]

I can see the problem being that if a Dev only focuses on the PS4 option without giving any benefits to the PS4.5 then what's the point of someone buying this supposed better PS4? If Sony markets this new console as something with more power and more opportunities (and why wouldn't they as that's marketing 101) yet devs aren't utilising this power than the consumer is going to feel ripped off.

It's a lose lose situation no matter if the devs support one or the other and even both. There's going to be lower quality on the original PS4 or there's going to be a gap, be it big or small, that will confuse and irritate the playerbase.

 

[Boke1879]

Good that most developers share my view and most of GAF about this.

Who are most developers?

 

[Stereogatari]

Lol obviously. Extra work for them.

 

[AZUMIKE]

OK. I want to emphatically note that I'm neither for nor against the release of the PS4K upgrade. The word I would use to describe my feelings towards it would be "ambivalence." I think it could be a neat option for people who want more horsepower. I think it could needlessly segment the audience. I also think it could wind up being a waste of time in that it might only receive token support and never realize its potential. I honestly don't know what to expect.

But having said that, I also don't think these comparisons are very apt. You're correct. You don't need to upgrade your TV every few years. But you also don't need to upgrade here. But if you actually do feel compelled to stay at the bleeding edge of tech, then you might need to upgrade your TV every couple of years. Whether it's due to TVs getting bigger or just more whizbang features getting added every year, or perhaps lower input lag, or better contrast, or... you get the point. I'm just saying that your TV from 4 years ago probably isn't the baddest thing on the block anymore in terms of deciding where this year's super bowl party is going to be. So if you're obsessed with keeping up with the Jonses, then yeah, you probably do need to replace that old set.

But if you're sitting there thinking "I don't care about the new features of the last several years; my old set is perfectly fine," then I think that mindset also applies here.

And I'm just going to close out by trying to reiterate that I'm not one of those FryShutUpAndTakeMyMoney.jpg people that is already sold on this device. If I had to put money on it, my suspicion is that the improvements from upgrading will probably be largely underwhelming. Of course, I might just be saying that as someone who has a pretty decent gaming PC. But I'm just saying that I'm not salivating over the possibility of 4K Uncharted 4. I'm not expecting a whole hell of a lot here.

^^

As someone who exited the PS4 userbase because of a lack of compelling games, this new upgrade has me excited to re-enter and play anticipated titles. Kingdom Hearts, Tekken 7, GOW 4...all these titles can benefit from the PS4 NEO.

 

[Guymelef]

Are they happy making things like this?

 

[hesido]

Wrong and wrong.

Heck, as a dev I'm always mad when Apple introduces a new iPhone screen/res size, because that means more work for me in order to support it. But it creates a healthy brand life for the iPhone, drives new sales, and secures a strong future and opportunity for more iOS app sales.

This is the most non-news news ever.

It creates a healthy brand for Iphone because Iphone is a phone. People do tend to buy the latest gizmo's they don't need, it's not necessarily a win for the consumer. Phones do get a heck lost more wear and tear over the course of their use than consoles, giving people added incentives to upgrade -scratches on the screen, battery life getting worse, new OSes performing like absolute shit to drive you buy the next god damn phone, planned obsolescence etc. etc. Also, phones are cool. I know a heck lot of people who buy the latest thing just for the "image".

So no, I don't want my console to be like phones, or the PC's. Even the iterative nature of PC's are different from Phones, as parts are upgradable and if you set your PC slightly above the current gen consoles, you'll survive that generation.

Lol obviously. Extra work for them.

Not so obvious to some, as I remember reading claims on GAF that even 4K was possible somewhat transparent to the developer Don't make me dig those posts though.

 

[Alienous]

Are they happy making things like this?

I'm sure the NVIDIA cheques and technology help.

 

[DieH@rd]

Are they happy making things like this?

Nvidia is paying them for that.

 

[Audioboxer]

Are they happy making things like this?

Right now I think we would all take that to ease the worrying about the 10FPS RDR2 that is apparently coming our way.

 

[Movalpolos]

bu bu but neogaf told me it was no extra work and that devs who were unhappy were lazy fatties

Actually we are happy with this.

It make sense to us

here

 

[Grumpy-Gamer]

Hmm I must admit the following releases would be nice:
Watch dogs special edition E3 version
The division directors E3 cut
Dark souls 2 initial reveal edition

 

[Kezen]

Are they happy making things like this?

They would refuse to do that if they were.

 

[CosmicQueso]

I don't think you're thinking this through, and completely ignoring the OP, which is about developer sentiment. If you were right, developers wouldn't be annoyed about this.

The OP is a tweet, given without frame of reference or context.

That next proper console jump is still coming, it's only going to come a year or two later now, but publishers are also going to have to worry about developing for more iterative systems in the meantime. It's extra unnecessary headache, cost, consideration and effort, which is no doubt why most developers are unhappy about it.

You forgot potentially profitable.

Also, who's to say costs will be so large moving forward to the next proper generational jump?

Anyone with basic common sense and any historical grounding in how console development costs have grown over time, with the big jumps coinciding with generational leaps. And with potential native 4k next gen? Think those assets are just going to create themselves?

That really is down to the studio in question, and the amount they're willing to invest.

Publishers do most of the investing usually, but I get where you're going.

Many studios likely won't develop entirely new or bespoke engines, and others will only improve or develop ones they already have. A lot of the engines being developed this time around are more future proof than in the past, and I don't think the jump in costs will be as radical as you make out.

Sounds like you have this business figured out.

 

[Skinpop]

What technology offers frequent update cycles? Like, all of them! TV's, cars, gadgets, etc. they all offer the opportunity to upgrade from something new if it is available and you want to pay for it. Consoles are basically the exception to everything else technology.

a console is a standard/specification. it's nothing like any of your examples. standards need time and critical mass to be useful.

 

[Neuromancer]

I've come around on the subject since the first rumor broke. If, last generation, there was a 360 revision that gave a graphical/performance bump, and all games ran on both the new 360 and the old one, that would have been pretty cool. God knows I went through enough 360's any way! And 360 games were looking really rough towards the end there, I'm sure most of us remember and would agree. One solution is a shorter gen but maybe a modest mid cycle refresh is an even better one.

 

[Boke1879]

Actually we are happy with this.

It make sense to us

Thanks for your input man. Real talk.

 

[NHale]

Well they'll have to get used to it. Ms is only doing the same.

People keep saying "Microsoft too" but all that I remember is E3 2013 where everyone said the same about Always Online being Sony's strategy as well.

Wrong and wrong.

Heck, as a dev I'm always mad when Apple introduces a new iPhone screen/res size, because that means more work for me in order to support it. But it creates a healthy brand life for the iPhone, drives new sales, and secures a strong future and opportunity for more iOS app sales.

This is the most non-news news ever.

Fortunately Sony decided to release this console especially considering how the PS4 sales were declining, right?

 

[SRTtoZ]

Ehh, like someone else said, it could just be a few guys. I'm sure there are plenty of developers who are excited to see what their new game is going to run like on a more powerful console.

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

bu bu but neogaf told me it was no extra work and that devs who were unhappy were lazy fatties

I also read comments saying who would listen to Colin and trust him and his trusted source? I would trust Colin on what he is mentioning that he is hearing from his trusted source over some guy on NeoGaf comparing this console upgrade to phones, PC's, tablets, microwaves, cars etc. Saying everything will be alright because that's the way it is for everything else, no thank you.

 

[orochi91]

Ehh, like someone else said, it could just be a few guys. I'm sure there are plenty of developers who are excited to see what their new game is going to run like on a more powerful console.

+1

Agreed.

 

[Audioboxer]

People keep saying "Microsoft too" but all that I remember is E3 2013 where everyone said the same about Always Online being Sony's strategy as well.

One of them is a total car wreck, the other is something that has valid grounds to at least be tested. Unless MS want to launch the XB2 ahead of schedule they'll be preparing for something if Sony fire this off and it does okay.

 

[jellies_two]

I would question his informal survey. Did he send out a questionnaire or just have a few conversations.

If you develop in any other field testing properly for different SKUs is normal. PC of course, what a nightmare quality control and testing is there. iOS. Android. Even a raspberry pi has faster and slower versions.

This is just two units, one with more compute units and higher clock speed, and an extra memory buffer. If you can't stretch to enabling some extra resolution or extra frame rate on that, otherwise identical box, I have to wonder how much you care about the polishing phase of your title..

 

[QaaQer]

I feel as if Sony and Cerny may have had this project planned, this is just a phase of a overall end game.

]

It was planned. Semiaccurate broke the story in 2013 pre ps4 release about how ps4 was designed for incremental upgrade and how sony wanted to change the console cycle.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

Who are most developers?

Any developer that has to do more work?? Some things will have to coded differently regardless of how close it is to the former. Consoles servive longer because they are all they same so you can optimize. Now throwing out more consoles means more time spent optimizing to multiple console types with the same manpower. What do you get? Less optimization, every delveloper isn't going to get more people to do this. So yay one step closer to being a PC now.

 

[pastrami]

My point with the Hyrule Warriors comparison is that it exists. You can see an example where a developer creates a game that utilizes a particular piece of more powerful hardware, and due to the game also having to run on a less powerful piece of hardware you get a game that runs badly and attempts more than the hardware is capable of.

Hyrule Warriors is a Wii U game, so I don't think it's a good example. Trying to shrink down a Wii U game to the 3DS was probably no small task, regardless of whether the N3DS would have existed or not.

Imagine a modern day Crysis came out targeting high spec PCs. A poor PS4 port won't be because of a PS4K existing, it'll be because the developers were targeting a high spec PC.

 

[Sheroking]

OK. I want to emphatically note that I'm neither for nor against the release of the PS4K upgrade. The word I would use to describe my feelings towards it would be "ambivalence." I think it could be a neat option for people who want more horsepower. I think it could needlessly segment the audience. I also think it could wind up being a waste of time in that it might only receive token support and never realize its potential. I honestly don't know what to expect.

But having said that, I also don't think these comparisons are very apt. You're correct. You don't need to upgrade your TV every few years. But you also don't need to upgrade here. But if you actually do feel compelled to stay at the bleeding edge of tech, then you might need to upgrade your TV every couple of years. Whether it's due to TVs getting bigger or just more whizbang features getting added every year, or perhaps lower input lag, or better contrast, or... you get the point. I'm just saying that your TV from 4 years ago probably isn't the baddest thing on the block anymore in terms of deciding where this year's super bowl party is going to be. So if you're obsessed with keeping up with the Jonses, then yeah, you probably do need to replace that old set.

But if you're sitting there thinking "I don't care about the new features of the last several years; my old set is perfectly fine," then I think that mindset also applies here.

If my comparison to TVs fails on any broad level, it's that the TV market is populated by EVERYONE and not just enthusiasts. Consoles are pretty much only owned by invested gamers. Hardware power matters to them, performance matters. It's a huge part of the foundation of Sony's market lead this generation. Offering more for less money and playing the role of the most consumerist company in gaming hardware.

There's a reason the response to this has so far been negative. The idea that you don't have to upgrade won't stop a lot of PS4 owners from feeling marginalized and forced into an upgrade.

 

[Neuromancer]

People keep saying "Microsoft too" but all that I remember is E3 2013 where everyone said the same about Always Online being Sony's strategy as well.

The difference is, MS literally said they were going to do it.

When you look at the console space, I believe we will see more hardware innovation in the console space than we've ever seen. You'll actually see us come out with new hardware capability during a generation allowing the same games to run backward and forward compatible because we have a Universal Windows Application running on top of the Universal Windows Platform that allows us to focus more and more on hardware innovation without invalidating the games that run on that platform."

http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/1/11121666/xbox-one-hardware-upgrades-phil-spencer-microsoft

 

[Alienous]

Sure, but don't buy that one. There's no scenario where that game would be good on that platform, so you aren't missing out.

But that's my point. I don't want to have to wonder if I can run a console game well, and this seems like it'll just be more of that if I don't upgrade. My best hope is the the NX is on-par, so that we might see PS4Neo/NX SKUs, and PS4/XBOne SKUs. Otherwise we could be looking at developers using it as a baseline, and the other platforms suffering. I don't expect much of that, but I do expect it.

 

[blankempathy]

Ehh, like someone else said, it could just be a few guys. I'm sure there are plenty of developers who are excited to see what their new game is going to run like on a more powerful console.

I'm sure there are yet I'm sure they're unhappy still having to put in the extra time needed to put out the weaker version still.

 

[nib95]

The OP is a tweet, given without frame of reference or context.

You forgot potentially profitable.

The only one potentially profiting from this is Sony, by using the PS4K to better enable the PSVR and their other technologies, not developers and publishers who will have sold just as many copies of their games with or without the PS4K, only without as much headache and development time/consideration.

It's not like the PS4, nor this generation is close to market saturation or stagnation yet.

 

[darkside31337]

People keep saying "Microsoft too" but all that I remember is E3 2013 where everyone said the same about Always Online being Sony's strategy as well.

Ignoring the fact they've talked about doing something very similar, what benefit does MS have of -not- implementing the same strategy?

Folks who already have a PS4 and don't want to upgrade will keep using their PS4. Folks who want to upgrade will.

Folks who are on the fence now without either system and are considering buying one or the other have the option of either buying a cheaper PS4, that was already ahead of the XB1 or a version of a PS4 that is even further ahead of the XB1. They are even less likely to buy an XB1 if MS does nothing than before the PS4.5 was a thing.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

I dont even see how this is good for Playstation. They dont make alot of money off of hardware, they make money from software. If people spend 400 dollars upgrading to a new PS4, thats 400 dollars less they can spend on games (they thing that actually makes them money).

I could understand this move if the PS4 were struggling, but it isnt, its dominating in every possible way.

 

[amnesiac]

If I were a PS4 owner, I'd be concerned with the PS4 version of the games becoming 'afterthoughts' like cross gen titles were in the beginning of this gen.

It's interesting that Sony thinks this is the way to go versus just releasing a brand new console in a couple of years that is backwards compatible.

 

[KORNdoggy]

The only way to get better running will require your game to be compatible with the newest SDK that supports the new hardware and the developer going in and doing the work.
(Which can be hard or difficult depending on your engine and version number of that engine. As later ones can break functionality you've depended on.)

I'd assume no patch would be needed to simply run the games on neo without any additional bells and whistles. The vanilla PS4 would just work in the neo? Otherwise i sense a situation where some old games simply won't work on neo due to devs not wanting to patch...or they're out of business and CAN't patch.

 

[Reset]

PS4K / Xbox1.5 are terrible ideas, and if Sony or Microsoft release them I hope they completely bomb in terms of sales. Fuck outta here with this garbage, if I wanted to upgrade a console every two years I'd just go PC 100%.

Ehh, like someone else said, it could just be a few guys. I'm sure there are plenty of developers who are excited to see what their new game is going to run like on a more powerful console.

Why not just release their game exclusively for the PC then.

 

[Movalpolos]

I also read comments saying who would listen to Colin and trust him and his trusted source? I would trust Colin on what he is mentioning that he is hearing from his trusted source over some guy on NeoGaf comparing this console upgrade to phones, PC's, tablets, microwaves, cars etc. Saying everything will be alright because that's the way it is for everything else, no thank you.

Colin's "source" is either bullshit or just wrong.
I'm calling it out.

 

[Boke1879]

Any developer that has to do more work?? Some things will have to coded differently regardless of how close it is to the former. Consoles servive longer because they are all they same so you can optimize. Now throwing out more consoles means more time spent optimizing to multiple console types with the same manpower. What do you get? Less optimization, every delveloper isn't going to get more people to do this. So yay one step closer to being a PC now.

I'm saying. Who are these devs complaining. I do believe Colin has a source that talked to some devs and they maybe aren't jumping for joy, but did this "source" call up every studio? Or did they take to some of their friends who happen to be devs and ask their input? We just have no reference.

We also have devs in this thread saying it's not that big of a deal and definitely nothing to be worried about on the extreme some posts here make it.

My take? The answer lies in the middle. Sure it's a bit more work, but they'll do it just like they did cross gen games at the start and at the end of it all everything will be fine.

The reason this topic is getting so much attention and extreme opinions because it's something that hasn't really been done before.

 

[CosmicQueso]

I'm certainly comforted knowing that those who have been against this move have moved from a selfish perspective to a more altruistic one.

Thinking about the devs is a very noble effort. Surely, this is a significant burden.

Actually we are happy with this.

It make sense to us

Oh. Well never mind then.

The only one potentially profiting from this is Sony, by using the PS4K to better enable the PSVR and their other technologies, not developers and publishers who will have sold just as many copies of their games with or without the PS4K, only without as much headache and development time/consideration.

It's not like the PS4, nor this generation is close to market saturation or stagnation yet.

These assumptions. My goodness.

 

[Raonak]

I can't imagine it being much more work considering most engines are build to take PC into account, so scaling to different hardware should be quite simple these days.

I'd imagine exclusive developers having to put in more work tho.

 

[Alienous]

I dont even see how this is good for Playstation. They dont make alot of money off of hardware, they make money from software. If people spend 400 dollars upgrading to a new PS4, thats 400 dollars less they can spend on games (they thing that actually makes them money).

I could understand this move if the PS4 were struggling, but it isnt, its dominating in every possible way.

It's a Sony investment in selling televisions, probably.

"Hey, my PS4 can play 4K movies and (a small amount of) 4K games. Maybe I should upgrade my TV set".

As you said I don't think PlayStation specifically benefit much from the idea.

 

[ninjablade]

The only one potentially profiting from this is Sony, by using the PS4K to better enable the PSVR and their other technologies, not developers and publishers who will have sold just as many copies of their games with or without the PS4K, only without as much headache and development time/consideration.

It's not like the PS4, nor this generation is close to market saturation or stagnation yet.

Again games already run much better on pc with a amd rx280,then ps4, how is this such a big headache, I honestly don't understand.

 

[Audioboxer]

I dont even see how this is good for Playstation. They dont make alot of money off of hardware, they make money from software. If people spend 400 dollars upgrading to a new PS4, thats 400 dollars less they can spend on games (they thing that actually makes them money).

I could understand this move if the PS4 were struggling, but it isnt, its dominating in every possible way.

If someone has the expendable cash to upgrade from a PS4 to PS4k, and wants to do it, then I'm pretty certain they're already invested heavily in PSN and PS4 titles.

The PS4 they replace will then end up being sold to a new user, given to a family member or kept as a second console.

 

[TAJ]

Yep, it's the price of a new gen with none o the benefits.

ITT we pretend that PC versions don't exist.

Anyway, the lazy way to approach Neo versions would be to make the game identical but with native res something like 1,920x2,160 and call it a day.

 

[Boke1879]

If I were a PS4 owner, I'd be concerned with the PS4 version of the games becoming 'afterthoughts' like cross gen titles were in the beginning of this gen.

It's interesting that Sony thinks this is the way to go versus just releasing a brand new console in a couple of years that is backwards compatible.

You think anyone is going to fuck over 50 million users? and give them ports that run at 15 fps? Like some on this forum suggested?

 

[Neuromancer]

The only one potentially profiting from this is Sony, by using the PS4K to better enable the PSVR and their other technologies, not developers and publishers who will have sold just as many copies of their games with or without the PS4K, only without as much headache and development time/consideration.

It's not like the PS4, nor this generation is close to market saturation or stagnation yet.

Would you agree that better looking games tend to sell better than worse looking games, all things considered? If the NeoPS4K.5 lets devs make noticeably better looking games their games could end up being more profitable. In the same way that current gen game sales quickly shot past last gen game sales once both were available.

 

[D20CritMiss]

The difference is, MS literally said they were going to do it.

Doesn't say this gen though, and also no having sold to 38+mil on the promise of being most powerful. lol.

 

[Audioboxer]

You think anyone is going to fuck over 50 million users? and give them ports that run at 15 fps? Like some on this forum suggested?

I'm sure the devs are currently behind their desks saying "lets cap titles at 15FPS just to see the outrage!". It's more realistic than them moaning about the effort to optimize for Neo and begrudgingly doing it. It totally is. Definitely the more likely scenario they cave to.