Chobel
Member
I 100% agree with the bolded, but that goes against PS4K being the answer to Scorpio. How can they compete with Scorpio when their games are targeting PS4?
Polygon: Xbox Scorpio will be a ~6 TFLOP system (v PS4K's 4.14), unveil soon, Fall 17
- Thread starter BUNTING1243
- Start date
I 100% agree with the bolded, but that goes against PS4K being the answer to Scorpio. How can they compete with Scorpio when their games are targeting PS4?
Maximilian E.
AKA MS-Evangelist
Some thoughts..
Is a 6 TFLOP machine enough to convince/entice people switching over/expand marketshare for MS?
With Xbox One, MS took a step back regards marketshare and brand strength (plus Sony executed well on their plan and took advantage of MS mistakes).
So, because of how MS "failed" with Xbox One, in order to take 2 steps forward, MS has to like, REALLY convince the market once again that it is the place to be if you want to play the best games, at their best.
The thing is, Sony is in a position where they can close the gap to MS, if its"only" about increasing clockspeed. Sony is a hardware company, they have the know how to pull something like this off. They managed to get lucky with RAM for PS4, so why not pull this off as well? If MS is "only" at 6TFLOP, then who says that Sony will not try to closen the gap? Sony has the advantage here of a bigger installed base and therefore more potential buyers of Neo. If the gap is small to Scorpio, then perhaps gamers will be content with what they got with Neo and continue with Sony.
So, strategy wise.. MS needs perhaps to pull something more "spectacular" than 6TFLOP in order to have a margin to Sonys "what if they increase clockspeed on the GPU" but also, to attract gamers and convince them to switch to Scorpio.
But then we have also have the when will Sony then come out with PS5? Well, it depends on when Neo is out but perhaps earliest 2 years after Scorpio is released? And then MS turn with their next stuff.. could it be that we will enter a two year release cycle? Most likely not..
As I see it, Microsoft is in a position here to either be risky and go on with the 6TFLOP machine and give Sony a chance to close the gap.. OR... they go balls out with the hardware.Like..really balls out.. like dual RX480 crossfired, a Zen cpu and double the RAM. This will FOR SURE not happen but it would give MS the hardware crown for some years, the brand would improve as it would show that MS are serious about gaming but also, it would help the machine to live longer and perhaps not be at such a disadvantage to PS5 when it comes.
Going balls out is of course expensive but.. how important is the Xbox brand for MS and how much are they willing to do to ensure that it can take two steps forward from the one step back they took with Xbox One?
Just some toughts as I am interested in the strategies and reasonings behind these machines and how MS and Sony position themselves against eachother.
Is a 6 TFLOP machine enough to convince/entice people switching over/expand marketshare for MS?
With Xbox One, MS took a step back regards marketshare and brand strength (plus Sony executed well on their plan and took advantage of MS mistakes).
So, because of how MS "failed" with Xbox One, in order to take 2 steps forward, MS has to like, REALLY convince the market once again that it is the place to be if you want to play the best games, at their best.
The thing is, Sony is in a position where they can close the gap to MS, if its"only" about increasing clockspeed. Sony is a hardware company, they have the know how to pull something like this off. They managed to get lucky with RAM for PS4, so why not pull this off as well? If MS is "only" at 6TFLOP, then who says that Sony will not try to closen the gap? Sony has the advantage here of a bigger installed base and therefore more potential buyers of Neo. If the gap is small to Scorpio, then perhaps gamers will be content with what they got with Neo and continue with Sony.
So, strategy wise.. MS needs perhaps to pull something more "spectacular" than 6TFLOP in order to have a margin to Sonys "what if they increase clockspeed on the GPU" but also, to attract gamers and convince them to switch to Scorpio.
But then we have also have the when will Sony then come out with PS5? Well, it depends on when Neo is out but perhaps earliest 2 years after Scorpio is released? And then MS turn with their next stuff.. could it be that we will enter a two year release cycle? Most likely not..
As I see it, Microsoft is in a position here to either be risky and go on with the 6TFLOP machine and give Sony a chance to close the gap.. OR... they go balls out with the hardware.Like..really balls out.. like dual RX480 crossfired, a Zen cpu and double the RAM. This will FOR SURE not happen but it would give MS the hardware crown for some years, the brand would improve as it would show that MS are serious about gaming but also, it would help the machine to live longer and perhaps not be at such a disadvantage to PS5 when it comes.
Going balls out is of course expensive but.. how important is the Xbox brand for MS and how much are they willing to do to ensure that it can take two steps forward from the one step back they took with Xbox One?
Just some toughts as I am interested in the strategies and reasonings behind these machines and how MS and Sony position themselves against eachother.
Because you don't just do +300 MHz for the shader clock... there are power concerns, stability, cooling...etc.
Not to mention these consoles are meant to stay on for a long time, hell, some people still don't turn off theirs, they just turn off the TV and leave the console on idle. So they need to be extremely stable, meaning their clocks have to be tested for very extended periods of time. This isn't some homemade overclocking here.
SEGAvangelist
Member
Huh? Phil talked about forward compatibility even before PS4K news leaked. I don't think we'll see any Scorpio only games until at least 2019 (besides VR if that ends up being a thing).
MilkyJoe
Member
Regard first point
How many people switched sides as soon as Super Dae or whatever he was called, leaked 1.3tflops vs 1.8?
Be interesting to see.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
They cant 'pound for pound' if rumours are correct. But with that said the Neo @ 4.2TF isn't going to be a million miles behind. Plus it's much better for Sony to have the Neo vs Scorpio instead of just PS4 vs Scorpio.
Then by getting in early, Sony would hope to widen their current market share and hope that the Scorpio doesn't pull people away in big numbers.
But releasing new games on old hardware is going to hold the new hardware back to some extent. There's just no way around it. It would be even more profound on the Xbox which is just one of the reasons why I don't think they will do it.
With Windows 10 Mobile in effective cryosleep, XBox is the biggest other device for UWAs to target. MS is also apparently putting several more lower cost devices out there with Xbox branding as well, to help increase the UWP coverage area. UWP is a huge huge deal to MS and I am sure they are willing to spend money to increase adoption. It is probably the reason Project Helix exists in the first place. XBox was created to control the living room, now it exists to push UWP.
The quote we've seen is that Scorpio is "targeting 6TF." That makes it pretty clear that numbers are far from final, so it's pointless to try to compare them as if they were benchmark results. I think it's clear Microsoft is aiming for a performance advantage, and that with a one year gap it's not an unreasonable goal. What will actually happen is anyone's guess.
RedAssedApe
Banned
their source was the same iirc
SEGAvangelist
Member
We don't know that. All we know is that Kotaku only had one source say 5-6TF. Polygon didn't specify how many sources gave them the 6TF number.
But that rumored performance target was only for the GPU. So if they end up with a 5.5TF GPU, depending on the rest of the CPU/RAM, they can still end up with 6TF.
potatohead
Member
Definitely going to be interesting. And it will be even more interesting that it is a mid-gen upgrade. And maybe even Scorpio is launching entirely a new generation of Xbox.
So many case examples here to look at closely, the timing of everything especially, being in the middle of a generation, etc etc.
This is even more interesting now than maybe PS4 versus Xbone was, for a long time we knew the specs well before launch days (Feb 2013 to Nov 2013).
Clockspeed of the GPU is only a small part of the hardware story and the idea of dual GPUs is completely ridiculous in a console.
If Microsoft wants to go balls out, they'd simply use a larger, more powerful GPU with high bandwidth memory (hbm2) instead of Polaris 10 / RX480.
With NEO's GPU apparently being a match for RX 480 / Polaris 10 (but at a lower clockspeed in Neo) it seems Scorpio's GPU could possibility be a gimped cut-down Vega 10 (or Vega 11)
MilkyJoe
Member
I for one was in the Sony camp depending on controller before launch. Was the original 1.1 tf vs 1.8? It wasn't always 1.3 was it?
Basically this. Every Windows 10 device that Microsoft comes out with nowadays is 1: profitable and 2: Makes use of the store. It's really evident that a lot of gamers don't understand the whole reason behind the Xbox. It's actually trying to fulfill its original destiny of being the Trojan horse. That's why the hardware stuff to me isn't "that" much of a big deal and it's really just to get the "core" gamers attention (with those 3rd party comparisons). At least in my opinion.
professor_t
Member
When you encounter this post:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11960243&postcount=1764
. . . I feel like it should be bathed in a shimmering golden glow. It's not just any post, it is one of great moments in Neogaf history.
In fact, I think every landmark Neogaf post, if we could choose just 8-10, should be distinguished in this way.
Proelite
Member
If Scorpio is Fall 2017, of course it will be. I would say if it's a custom chip, you'll have Vega successor tech on it.
oldergamer
Member
That's a lot of downplaying right there... What if MS offers an external GPU option?
As likely as Scorpio running all games at 4K native 120fps.
InquisitorAles
Member
Holy shit
HOLY SHIT
I hope all goes well for them in the long run with the Scorpio, but it doesn't matter how many TFLOPs they have for some (me especially) if they can't diversify their library portfolio. One of the best things Xbox 360 did in its early life was the JRPG dedication. However, with almost zero (rare exceptions) Japanese support and exclusives that can be bought on PC; what's the point?
Bitch Pudding
Member
That alone did not do the trick, 1.8/399 vs. 1.3/499 did.
KinofChaos
Banned
Totally false imo, they barely ever used it in marketing, and it has more to do with the fact PS consoles have 20 years built up a world wide fanbase and not in 2 territories, didn't launch a year late, was cheaper and people being turned off x1. The moment PS4 launched the same month as x1 , regardless of power it should have been clear PS4 would have been #1 in sales regardless. I think people are grossly overstating how important the power was, more price and other factors.
People thinking everyone will jump ship over a power difference are kidding themselves.
How does do more jrpg translate to more diversity?
Art Vandilay
Member
Am I having deja vu or did you just copy and paste this from the other thread?
Cthulhu_Steev
Member
heh, I've just read them back to back and went 'huh?'.
How many JRPGs does the Xbox One have right now?
KinofChaos
Banned
How does it not? It's not just JRPG's, it's games like dreams, Detroit, Last Guardian, Until Dawn, Horizon, God of war, Don't think Ms has anything in their catalogue that is in these genres.
The narrative from some warriorz is that Sony are bungling idiots and the verge of bankruptcy, who can't write software or maintain a stable network. The only reason the PS4 is a success is due to the power differential, which they completely lucked out on. Contradictory, these are the same people who argue that resolution/fidelity don't matter every time DF does a face-off.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
Microsoft won't allow Scorpio exclusives until the Xbox One has hit at LEAST 5 years old. So that could be a one or two year transition depending on when this thing comes out. My guess is still 2016. I mean, if we're now believing that the Neo GPU "basically matches" Scorpio's, then theoretically, as many of us have already speculated, Scorpio should be ready to release in 2016 too, even if it's in limited quantities initially.
AMD has the 480 ready for THIS MONTH. Is it that hard to believe that maybe they were preparing Microsoft's equivalent in conjunction for a 2016 or early 2017 release?
Spurting the Xbox One for 5 years as the target for development seems fair to me. 5 years is a traditional console cycle in length. Also remembering that all games will be 100% BC too.
Forward compatibility doesn't necessarily mean all games that have to run on both sets of hardware in 2018 just that if I buy a game in the next 12 months that they can guarantee that it will work on Xbox Two(Scorpio).
Devs will be pushing both Xbox and Playstation to ditch the 2013 models as soon as possible.
Art Vandilay
Member
He totally just disregarded it too. Trying to get that post count up lol
Cthulhu_Steev
Member
That last bit is now changing before our very eyes.
I admit I checked the post history to see if was just those two
Like what? I don't have any idea what game going multiplatform would get such over reaction.
Okay, so a custom GPU, roughly the size of Vega 10 with some of Navi's tech.
The Vega 10 for PC should easily blow past 10 TFLOPs, so maybe Microsoft is aiming that high afterall.
How about the above as an internal or external GPU ?
presagetogood
Member
Microsoft will not simply cut and run from XB1 and treat it like the OG Xbox. We are living in an entirely different time for consumer advocacy and an entirely different time for Microsoft's vision for the console market and how they treat users. Also, the issues with OG Xbox GPU have been well documented here already.
Xb1 will continue to be the entry level model that will push mass users in, just like with Ps4. Scorpio and Neo will go down in price eventually and catch more of the mainstream that way, but they will be at least 3 years from launch until they reach that mainstream $199 threshold. Xb1 is already getting to that $199 threshold within the next year - 2 year, and they will continue to pull in millions of users each year, maybe to the tune of 50 million worldwide users by 2018, depending on how they're able to market it. It won't suddenly go away, and MS won't suddenly drop it. Back when og Xbox was around they could afford to cut and run from consumers, cause the hardware market was still a test bed for them and they hadn't established brand power. They now have brand power and every move they make builds or tarnishes the brand. They haven't spent this gen working on pro consumer features like BC for nothing....
Xb1 will continue to be the entry level model that will push mass users in, just like with Ps4. Scorpio and Neo will go down in price eventually and catch more of the mainstream that way, but they will be at least 3 years from launch until they reach that mainstream $199 threshold. Xb1 is already getting to that $199 threshold within the next year - 2 year, and they will continue to pull in millions of users each year, maybe to the tune of 50 million worldwide users by 2018, depending on how they're able to market it. It won't suddenly go away, and MS won't suddenly drop it. Back when og Xbox was around they could afford to cut and run from consumers, cause the hardware market was still a test bed for them and they hadn't established brand power. They now have brand power and every move they make builds or tarnishes the brand. They haven't spent this gen working on pro consumer features like BC for nothing....
Bits N Pieces
Member
Was it yourself I provided the YouTube link to with the Sony TV advert where they used the tag line "The worlds most powerful console at the end" in that other thread? Along with the numerous print and online display ads?
Gamers want to play the best games on the best hardware they can afford, Sony weren't/aren't daft, they know this - hence the marketing campaigns proclaiming such a thing. I'm struggling to understand why you are so hell bent on dismissing the fact that Sony themselves have used its hardware power to its advantage?
Wasnt this only a UK ad campaign?
In general, Playstation supports far more genres and far more kinds of games than Xbox does, which aims at the shooter and racing base 'core' American market. That gives far more value world wide to users outside of that US area than would otherwise be supported.
Its something that isn't new but is still just as relevant as when it was first made clear.
MS has far more against them than simply making a powerful unit....and that is to their detriment.
I actually think it would end up even worse if Sony had not announced NEO and just kept PS4, because then Scorpio would have been at the mercy of PS4's specs completely, and devs would have continued on like they have been.
And in 2018 or whatever, could have came out with a stronger unit.
But Sony wasn't intending to directly compete in the power market was my view from how they are chaining PSNEO to PS4, they want it for VR, and the power that comes with that just happens to allow them a two tier marketshare opportunity
Bits N Pieces
Member
I did say that in the other thread, it's a tag line Sony have used in promotional materials since the generation started.
I'm from the UK, I can only comment on the campaigns Sony or Microsoft do here
kingwingin
Member
but isnt the main reason they are coming out with the neo is for the reduced cost of manufacture? Or was that debunked
oldergamer
Member
There will be some major meltdowns.
We don't know if that was even a credible source, but if it was, that could have also been a big reason, but it doesn't have to be the only reason.
I think its possible, since MS are going for a lower clocked Vega, and as we already knew but DF confirmed, Sony is going for an underclocked Polaris. And the CPU and RAM configurations will also likely be changed if they are going for next year.
Even so, although threads will probably burn to ashes in its wake, it won't be any worse than the 360 to PS3 comparisons, or Xbox to PS2 comparisons.
And people will continue to hold onto the consoles they have an interest in game wise
rokkerkory
Member
but how much more power? if only 10-20% then not much of a biggy.
CrimsonEclipse
Member
Indeed.
I am just going to wait and see who announces what and how things shake up. For all we know...these consoles "upgrades" or w/e could fail on both Sony and MS behalf.