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[Bluth54]

umm, I don't remember seeing that?

Legally and technically that's not even feasible. Forcing devs to patch their old games.

I don't think that Sony is going to be forcing devs to patch their games, just that if they want their games to take advantage of the neo's extra horsepower they would have to patch their games. Only games released after a certain point in the future (probably near neo's launch) will be required to support both.

 

[bidguy]

umm, I don't remember seeing that?

Legally and technically that's not even feasible. Forcing devs to patch their old games.

uhh thats not what hes saying at all... read it again

 

[NXGamer]

So are Sony and Microsoft going to do this thing where each year one trumps the other in power and then touts about it for 12 months?

This year and next for sure, we may (almost positive) have just seen the first possible NEO and Scorpio game versions. Horizon and BF1 respectively.

At some point they will become the new marketing version for all games and brands now.

 

[martino]

If not forcing negociations between two private parties is a thing that can happen.
Like help make our new hardware appealing we make an effort on licence fee for X of your others games on our platform or things like that.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

If Titanfall 2 and Overwatch don't get some type of patch for Scorprio then i can't see myself purchasing it in 2017.

well, we do know Sony forces developers to include a PS4 Neo mode starting September 20th, but not sooner. So, it's safe to asume that unlike Overwatch Titanfall 2 will also have a Scorpio mode. That said, I asume nobody will talk about Titanfall 2 anymore when Scorpio finally arrives in stores...

 

[MilkyJoe]

like plenty of other industries too.

It does mean there is never a fixed hardware target so any 'woot we're the best' rhetoric is only ever transient as the other team will be out in a year or two with something bigger and better.

Maybe fewer console willy waving wars?

This is how I see it. A cold console war, as it were.

 

[Avid Reading Horse]

well, we do know Sony forces developers to include a PS4 Neo mode starting September 20th, but not sooner. So, it's safe to asume that unlike Overwatch Titanfall 2 will also have a Scorpio mode. That said, I asume nobody will talk about Titanfall 2 anymore when Scorpio finally arrives in stores...

Because everyone will be hella hyped for Titanfall 3?!?!?!?!?? Is that the reason why they won't be talking about Titanfall 2 so much?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

 

[iceatcs]

Because everyone will be hella hyped for Titanfall 3?!?!?!?!?? Is that the reason why they won't be talking about Titanfall 2 so much?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

Once it released the hype gone. Applied every games.

 

[AP90]

My prediction for Scorpio pacthes.
1.) Halo 5
2.) Destiny
3.) Call of Duty
4.) Forza
5.) Major Sport titles
6.) The Division
7.) Fallout4
8.) Quantum Break
9.) The Witcher 3
10.) Battlefield 1
11.) Titanfall 2

The list above seems good, minus Fallout 4..

Other Considerations:
-Doom
-Ryse (highly unlikely, but would love it if they did.)
-Battleborn (maybe?)
------------------------
On separate note, maybe with Scorpio release they will also have a Halo Reach Remaster? (don't think they would call it an anniversary)

 

[oldergamer]

Game written in objective C and then compiled into machine code.

There won't be a game written in object C and subsequently shipped on Scorpio. Nor will the SDK for Scorpio have support for Objective C, in the same way that any of the various Android SDK don't have support for Objective C. We can wager on this if you want.

Of course one can always write his / her own translator and translate logic from Objective C to C++. But then you'll need to take care of API calls. A massive waste of time for more inefficient code.



I am professional Android developer. I know as much about that as I need to in order for me to program and ship apps.

Congrats on being an app developer.

Android is far more restrictive for what you can and can't do compared to x86/pc console development. Regardless translators exist on any platform. U should know that. U can use c++ c# any scripting language u want on consoles. Need Java, then convert your code. Objective C is for Apple apps and it's an extension that sits on top of C

Also not sure what your point is? Who gives a crap what languages you can use? It doesn't legitimize what you stated in regards to performance.

You are clearly wrong that you won't see improved performance on games with the new hardware. Game performance is typically limited by three factors, CPU, Gpu and bandwidth. If you increase all three,you can see performance in a game that doesn't already have a locked framerate. It could be the difference in a game fluctuating between 40 - 60 fps to achieving a locked 60.

Will u suddenly see games run in a different resolution? No not without a patch.

 

[nekkid]

uhh thats not what hes saying at all... read it again

You can read it both ways and it still makes sense, grammatically.

 

[Mabufu]

"Scorpio mode" sounds awful D :

 

[takriel]

I might seriously jump on this new console if it can play third party games at 1080/60 compared to the PS4K.

Instant buy for me:

Enhanced 1080/60 versions of

- Fallout 4
- Witcher 3
- Dark Souls 3

Whichever new console can give me that gets my money.

 

[arhra]

Just saying no one will make a published Xb1 game with objective C. And the Sdk will not have objective C support.

I can say the above with the same certainty as saying Scorpio will not have a coffee maker built in.

I dont have the SDK access, so I can't prove it. Same way i cant prove that Scorpio won't have a coffee maker built in.

You name the stakes if you want a wager.

You might wanna reconsider that particular wager. The Xbox SDK will essentially be the UWP SDK going forwards, and there's an iOS bridge for UWP that supports Objective-C (and some of the same tools can actually be used to just add Objective-C code to existing C++ UWP projects, if you just wanted to use it for some unfathomable reason.

Not that it's gonna be used for AAA games, but iOS ports releasing via ID@Xbox and using the bridge are a real possibility.

 

[RedAssedApe]

"Scorpio mode" sounds awful D :

Most code names do. It's like how Sony was advertising firmware updates with those corny ass sword names thinking it sounded cool lol

 

[jeff_rigby]

Congrats on being an app developer.

Android is far more restrictive for what you can and can't do compared to x86/pc console development. Regardless translators exist on any platform. U should know that. U can use c++ c# any scripting language u want on consoles. Need Java, then convert your code. Objective C is for Apple apps and it's an extension that sits on top of C

Also not sure what your point is? Who gives a crap what languages you can use? It doesn't legitimize what you stated in regards to performance.

You are clearly wrong that you won't see improved performance on games with the new hardware. Game performance is typically limited by three factors, CPU, Gpu and bandwidth. If you increase all three,you can see performance in a game that doesn't already have a locked framerate. It could be the difference in a game fluctuating between 40 - 60 fps to achieving a locked 60.

Will u suddenly see games run in a different resolution? No not without a patch.

What about memory bandwidth? NEO will get some of it's additional bandwidth from asset compression for which decompression is built into the hardware. With a PS4 Launch game that does not have that compression, it won't gain much memory bandwidth for the GPU. Same applies to a XB1 slim if it's using DDR4; asset compression and DDR4 give enough bandwidth for the XB1 slim to approach PS4 Launch performance only if the XB1 game is compiled to use compression. This is not spelled out but implied in Sony stating the PS4 NEO will not run Launch games faster until they are patched.

Note that a XB1 slim coming in 2016 is wild speculation. It's possible as a cheaper alternative (Cheaper than the current XB1) to the more expensive 2017 Scorpio.

 

[c0de]

What about memory bandwidth? NEO will get some of it's additional bandwidth from asset compression for which decompression is built into the hardware. With a PS4 Launch game that does not have that compression, it won't gain much memory bandwidth for the GPU. Same applies to a XB1 slim if it's using DDR4; asset compression and DDR4 give enough bandwidth for the XB1 slim to approach PS4 Launch performance only if the XB1 game is compiled to use compression. This is not spelled out but implied in Sony stating the PS4 NEO will not run Launch games faster until they are patched.

Note that a XB1 slim coming in 2016 is wild speculation. It's possible as a cheaper alternative (Cheaper than the current XB1) to the more expensive 2017 Scorpio.

Seriously, what? Asset compression? What are you talking about? How does memory (bandwidth) increase performance? Like at all?

 

[justsomeguy]

like plenty of other industries too.

It does mean there is never a fixed hardware target so any 'woot we're the best' rhetoric is only ever transient as the other team will be out in a year or two with something bigger and better.

Maybe fewer console willy waving wars?

Dear God that would be amazing. Focus on the games instead as it should be.

 

[justsomeguy]

You might wanna reconsider that particular wager. The Xbox SDK will essentially be the UWP SDK going forwards, and there's an iOS bridge for UWP that supports Objective-C (and some of the same tools can actually be used to just add Objective-C code to existing C++ UWP projects, if you just wanted to use it for some unfathomable reason.

Not that it's gonna be used for AAA games, but iOS ports releasing via ID@Xbox and using the bridge are a real possibility.

Agreed. Windows store already has bridged games I believe - eg candy crush et Al.

 

[ekim]

Seriously, what? Asset compression? What are you talking about? How does memory (bandwidth) increase performance? Like at all?

[smattering]
Compressed textures save bandwidth and so I guess it is shortening the time the GPU has to wait for the texture and is idle while it could do something.
[/smattering]

 

[hardseppo]

Sometimes I still read the MisterX forums for fun, but since that "Parasite76" fiasco at E3 they don't trust "insiders" anymore. However, there is one guy called Reverseboom who posted something interesting on May 3rd. They don't believe him, but who would make up stuph like this?

I saw two demos running on the new prototype.

The first demo was running in real-time 2160P @ 60FPS with a new AA system developed by the engineering team of 343i, the delivery system better results over the TXAA 2X with free performance over 64MB of SRAM new system.

It has been said that the prototype has dedicated physical processors, particles, audio, upscaling, and a new chip that works in color / HDR in order to improve the final quality of the images.

Textures and shadows in HLSL 6.0 and a new version of TILED RESOURCES are superb.

The second demo was running in real time 2160 @ 60FPS developed by DICE, the latest version of Frostbite. I think it's part of a new RPG, it is absurd. The forest, vegetation, water, textures, lighting and shadows, it seems some video of Graphine, seems reality, it looks like a movie.

The system is still in development and has huge margins for optimizations and improvements until the launch next year. Panos Panay is under the creative control. I saw some of the designs, and all of then is amazing. They are testing new liquid cooling system more efficient in order to have better margins optimizations and increased clock.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

^^ All bull shit. AAA games are not going to be 4K on Scorpio or Neo. Let alone 60fps 4K games lol.

 

[What A Time To Be Alive]

Sometimes I still read the MisterX forums for fun, but since that "Parasite76" fiasco at E3 they don't trust "insiders" anymore. However, there is one guy called Reverseboom who posted something interesting on May 3rd. They don't believe him, but who would make up stuph like this?

Believing anything off of MisterX forums >_>

 

[gamz]

Sometimes I still read the MisterX forums for fun, but since that "Parasite76" fiasco at E3 they don't trust "insiders" anymore. However, there is one guy called Reverseboom who posted something interesting on May 3rd. They don't believe him, but who would make up stuph like this?

#creativechatter indeed!

 

[ekim]

^^ All bull shit. AAA games are not going to be 4K on Scorpio or Neo. Let alone 60fps 4K games lol.

To be fair - a small scale demo that's just about rendering could be possible at 4k/60FPS on a 6TFlop GPU.

 

[c0de]

[smattering]
Compressed textures save bandwidth and so I guess it is shortening the time the GPU has to wait for the texture and is idle while it could do something.
[/smattering]

But texture compression was something even the Dreamcast could do. This is nothing new and... I don't know what he thinks that it will improve *anything*.

 

[justsomeguy]

Sometimes I still read the MisterX forums for fun, but since that "Parasite76" fiasco at E3 they don't trust "insiders" anymore. However, there is one guy called Reverseboom who posted something interesting on May 3rd. They don't believe him, but who would make up stuph like this?

Anybody on that forum.

Spoiler

Be amazing if it was true tho

😂

 

[c0de]

Sometimes I still read the MisterX forums for fun, but since that "Parasite76" fiasco at E3 they don't trust "insiders" anymore. However, there is one guy called Reverseboom who posted something interesting on May 3rd. They don't believe him, but who would make up stuph like this?

To be fair: the asset compression stuff is not that far away...

 

[hardseppo]

#creativechatter indeed!

yes, hahahaha - didn't want to offend anyone

 

[JumPeRJumPzZ]

well, we do know Sony forces developers to include a PS4 Neo mode starting September 20th, but not sooner. So, it's safe to asume that unlike Overwatch Titanfall 2 will also have a Scorpio mode. That said, I asume nobody will talk about Titanfall 2 anymore when Scorpio finally arrives in stores...

I dont see why we can assume that fall games will have a Scorpio mode when the console and probably SDK stuff for it is over a year away...

Neo? Sure a lot/all fall games like TF2, BF1 and CoD will ship with Neo mode. But i dont see this games shipping with Scorpio modes...

My prediction for Scorpio pacthes.
1.) Halo 5 (nah)
2.) Destiny (way too old, Destiny 2 is next year)
3.) Call of Duty (maybe next years CoD by Sledgehammer)
4.) Forza (Next years Motorsport 7)
5.) Major Sport titles (Next years versions)
6.) The Division (nah)
7.) Fallout4 (Nope)
8.) Quantum Break (Nope)
9.) The Witcher 3 (nope)
10.) Battlefield 1 (nope)
11.) Titanfall 2

Added what i think.

All of this games most likely wont see Scorpio patches. A lot them will be over a year old when Scorpio releases.

The games coming next fall? Sure all will have some Scorpio stuff.

 

[TLZ]

Xbox fans waiting for that Scorpio unveiling during E3.... only to be disappointed for no show

 

[Jack cw]

Xbox fans waiting for that Scorpio unveiling during E3.... only to be disappointed for no show

Imagine it being weaker than they think or more expensive even.
They need a prototype though at E3, some random transitor numbers wont do anything.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

To be fair - a small scale demo that's just about rendering could be possible at 4k/60FPS on a 6TFlop GPU.

Technically possible sure, but highly unrealistic to be used full scale.

To render a current XB1 game in 4K would use almost the entire hardware budget of the Scorpio. And for what, to appease the small minority of people who actually have 4K sets? That would be a catastrophic waste of resources.

The Neo is even weaker so it's much more in the realm of not even being possible to run PS4 level graphics at 4K.

The much more likely outcome for both these new machines is to stick with 1080p. Then there's plenty of headroom to push everything else. Graphics, AA, framerates etc.

1080p with good anti-aliasing is still a perfectly viable and good resolution.

 

[ekim]

Technically possible sure, but highly unrealistic to be used full scale.

To render a current XB1 game in 4K would use almost the entire hardware budget of the Scorpio. And for what, to appease the small minority of people who actually have 4K sets? That would be a catastrophic waste of resources.

The Neo is even weaker so it's much more in the realm of not even being possible to run PS4 level graphics at 4K.

The much more likely outcome for both these new machines is to stick with 1080p. Then there's plenty of headroom to push everything else. Graphics, AA, framerates etc.

1080p with good anti aliasing is still a perfectly viable and good resolution.

I don't think there will be any game running at 4k/60FPS on Scorpio outside of 2D games or something like Minecraft.

 

[Obscuritas]

like plenty of other industries too.

It does mean there is never a fixed hardware target so any 'woot we're the best' rhetoric is only ever transient as the other team will be out in a year or two with something bigger and better.

Maybe fewer console willy waving wars?

That's not sustainable at all. We won't see yearly/biyearly refreshes.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

I don't think there will be any game running at 4k/60FPS on Scorpio outside of 2D games or something like Minecraft.

Yeah, I think it's possible that some indie games etc might have a native 4K option, but nothing really beyond that. Except of course for maybe 4K native dash / OS and multimedia films, apps and such.

 

[c0de]

Xbox fans waiting for that Scorpio unveiling during E3.... only to be disappointed for no show

I don't think there are many people expecting that. But people eagerly awaiting it to not be shown just to read how people are disappointed is one of the worst on forums in general.

 

[Zedox]

I know for a fact bits of XBone games have been written in the D language, this conversation about what is/isn't used and the relation to SDK's is so confusing.

Also it hurts my head to read people talk about what will be easy and what will be automatic for games running on whatever Scorpio could be, but I don't even know where I would begin to reply individually to that stuff.

Sure you can argue that just about anything is possible under the right circumstances but the likely realities are so far removed from the way people seem to think software development works it's just absurd.

I feel the same.

 

[oti]

Sometimes I still read the MisterX forums for fun, but since that "Parasite76" fiasco at E3 they don't trust "insiders" anymore. However, there is one guy called Reverseboom who posted something interesting on May 3rd. They don't believe him, but who would make up stuph like this?

Come on.

 

[TLZ]

I don't think there are many people expecting that. But people eagerly awaiting it to not be shown just to read how people are disappointed is one of the worst on forums in general.

I don't think there are many people eagerly awaiting it to not be shown just to read how people are disappointed.

 

[nekkid]

I don't think there are many people eagerly awaiting it to not be shown just to read how people are disappointed.

I'm sure there are. Vocally on other areas of the Internet. Silently on GAF.

 

[mrklaw]

That's not sustainable at all. We won't see yearly/biyearly refreshes.

2013: PS4/XB1
2016: Neo
2017: Scorpio
2019: Neo2
2020: Scorpio 2

etc

you can get 3-4 years between each company's own refresh and 18-24 months between competing launches. Probably preferred by Sony/MS too as they avoid directly competing at launch.

 

[azertydu91]

Sometimes I still read the MisterX forums for fun, but since that "Parasite76" fiasco at E3 they don't trust "insiders" anymore. However, there is one guy called Reverseboom who posted something interesting on May 3rd. They don't believe him, but who would make up stuph like this?

Wait what was parasite76 fiasco?

 

[Outrun]

"Scorpio mode" sounds awful D :

...but it may look beautiful

 

[00ich]

It has been said that the prototype has dedicated physical processors, particles, audio, upscaling, and a new chip that works in color / HDR in order to improve the final quality of the images.

Textures and shadows in HLSL 6.0 and a new version of TILED RESOURCES are superb.

Fanboy mad libs. What does it even mean? It has a particle co-processor that works in color?

 

[In Service]

you can get 3-4 years between each company's own refresh and 18-24 months between competing launches. Probably preferred by Sony/MS too as they avoid directly competing at launch.

Strangely, this might increase my spend on Consoles. I'm an XBO user and had a 360 before that and PS2 before that. I buy each generation based upon exclusives, friends and graphics in that order but money isn't a problem.

I don't mind the graphical differences between the PS4 and XBO because it really isn't enough to make a difference to me.

However, if each company's refresh produced a "jump" in performance, I might be tempted to buy each iteration for me and my kids.

Backwards (and forwards) compatibility is a big deal for me in those cases though. I want to be playing through my backlog in years to come.

 

[Brudinho]

I have this strange feeling that they aren´t going to say a word about Scorpio at E3
Multiple console announcements, gameplay presentations and reveals within 90 minutes?
I don´t think that´s enough time to show a real successor of the Xbox One

 

[00ich]

2013: PS4/XB1
2016: Neo
2017: Scorpio
2019: Neo2
2020: Scorpio 2

etc

you can get 3-4 years between each company's own refresh and 18-24 months between competing launches. Probably preferred by Sony/MS too as they avoid directly competing at launch.

Still questionable if they can generate enough excitement to increase sales enough to offset the R&D costs with the kind of improvements they can offer.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Sometimes I still read the MisterX forums for fun, but since that "Parasite76" fiasco at E3 they don't trust "insiders" anymore. However, there is one guy called Reverseboom who posted something interesting on May 3rd. They don't believe him, but who would make up stuph like this?

I saw two demos running on the new prototype.

The first demo was running in real-time 2160P @ 60FPS with a new AA system developed by the engineering team of 343i, the delivery system better results over the TXAA 2X with free performance over 64MB of SRAM new system.

It has been said that the prototype has dedicated physical processors, particles, audio, upscaling, and a new chip that works in color / HDR in order to improve the final quality of the images.

Textures and shadows in HLSL 6.0 and a new version of TILED RESOURCES are superb.

The second demo was running in real time 2160 @ 60FPS developed by DICE, the latest version of Frostbite. I think it's part of a new RPG, it is absurd. The forest, vegetation, water, textures, lighting and shadows, it seems some video of Graphine, seems reality, it looks like a movie.

The system is still in development and has huge margins for optimizations and improvements until the launch next year. Panos Panay is under the creative control. I saw some of the designs, and all of then is amazing. They are testing new liquid cooling system more efficient in order to have better margins optimizations and increased clock.

The parts in bold are likely supported by the Launch XB1 but have not been firmware updated yet.....they are the ARM block accelerators that will be used by OpenVX which AMD just released version .9 for their APUs and dGPUs which are also used by UHD DRM and Player.

PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable
Launch (2013) consoles are UHD Capable and will be firmware updated .........(ARM TEE bus with Xtensa accelerators for PS4 in Southbridge and XB1 in the APU)
BDXL drives with 2010 specs can read UHD disks, BD-ROM Blu-ray drives are firmware updateable to read UHD Disks. (AACS 2 and BD+ still needed and they run in the TEE along with the Player and HEVC profile 10 codec).

AMD just released OpenVX beta (.9) for AMD APUs and dGPUs This is vision processing using Xtensa accelerators and OpenCV/OpenCL/GPU Compute. Prior to OpenVX, everything uses OpenCV which uses GPU compute. With OpenVX properly supported by the vendor, Accelerators are added (Xtensa processors) and vision processing becomes more efficient.

Sony and Microsoft should be releasing OpenVX APIs for the PS4 and XB1. OpenVX is vision processing released by Khronos October 2014 and updated April 2016 to version 1.1.

Open VX extensions for HTML and tiling beginning of 2015. The description mentions Tiling extension deals with the CPU only.

As with conventional User Kernels, Tiling User Kernels will typically be loaded and executed on HLOS/CPU-compatible targets, not on remote processors or other accelerators — the intent of this extension is to allow efficient scheduling and memory transfer between accelerators and user functions, not to provide code to run on an accelerator, since this capability is necessarily vendor-specific.

Micorosoft and Sony must write the extensions to use the Xtensa accelerators on the same ARM bus the TEE uses. The Xtensa accelerator is also used for the Codec which must be run in the TEE protected mode while the OpenVX can be run on the same bus without Trustzone protection.

Note: I in error assumed OpenVX would be supported by the PS4 soon after the October 2014 Khronos release of OpenVX 1.0. I should have understood that Sony would only release OpenVX when Game developers could use it on other Platforms (PC and XB1). OpenVX will be used by VR later this year so this release is timely.

OPENVX THE NEW KHRONOS API FOR COMPUTER VISION AND AR

OpenVX designed to improve the efficiency of computer vision from the camera to the compute, which can easily be handled by OpenCL 2.0, the new open heterogeneous compute standard that was finalized at the same time as OpenVX was announced.

it will do a whole host of image processing which range from mulitichannel color and BitDepth extraction and conversion to image resizing and warping. It will also do some 2D filtering and morphological operations in addition to the standard arithmetic, logical and statistical operations. It will also do core computer vision including pyramid computation and integral image computation. In addition to these major features, it will also be capable of histogram computation and equalization as well as canny edge detection and sparse optical flow. Harris and FAST corner detection are the final features of what OpenVX is epxected to do,

=> Warping the video out for VR goggles, UHD Blu-ray digital bridge video conversion, VR.....

Edit: The Launch XB1 should get a bump in performance if AA is handled by the Accelerators rather than the GPU. This would require a minor rewrite and recompile of the XB1 launch games. Upscaling to 4k should also be handled by the Xtensa accelerators.

 

[Obscuritas]

2013: PS4/XB1
2016: Neo
2017: Scorpio
2019: Neo2
2020: Scorpio 2

etc

you can get 3-4 years between each company's own refresh and 18-24 months between competing launches. Probably preferred by Sony/MS too as they avoid directly competing at launch.

I hope they'll be prepared to waste a lot of money in R&D, ads etc. cause developers won't go along with these hardware cycles and sure as hell consumers ain't gonna buy them.