ElBoxyBrown
Banned
The person simply asked if they were gonna be in the game and the dev responded. And you are freaking the fuck out for no reason. Or maybe there is a reason........
Also, global illumination? GLOBAL ILLUMINATION?! REALLY?! LMAO
Dishonored 2 to feature prominent LGBT characters
- Thread starter theecakee
- Start date
Also, global illumination? GLOBAL ILLUMINATION?! REALLY?! LMAO
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
As an LGBT member...I just don't really see why so many people care, if someone is in there or not. I mean Lesbian and Gay people are what like 3-4% of the population? And honestly unless someone is explicitly stated you can't know unless there's the stereotypical gay voice for me and short spikey hair stereotype for women...how do you really know? Hell transgender and the + are even less of the populous. It just seems as if we are trying to mimic real life and it is hard to get there. I just don't know honestly.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Mr.Monitor
Member
noticed there seemed to be quite a lot of women in their E3 trailer, too. exciting if true, I trust arkane to handle it well. they're great at worldbuilding and "behind the scenes" storytelling, so I'm anticipating it'll be handled with grace.
jacob armitage
Banned
Yay, while this was certainly on my radar i am more included to support games with a strong level of diversity. Plus, i quite liked the first one.
Jonneh3003
Banned
I don't see how sexual preference should make a difference to anything regarding a games narrative but I'm all for this.
yeah, let's maybe work on that by having more gay characters that aren't just that.
like, for example, a male character receiving a kiss for good luck by another character. Little things. A female character's desk or nightstand that has a framed picture of another woman on it.
You don't have to always "rub it into people's faces" by using stereotypes and tropes.
also, way, WAY more people than 3-4% of the population would certainly be considered part of the LGBT spectrum.
GandalftheRainbow
Neo Member
There, fixed it.
I'm torn on the Emily thing. On one hand it may fall into the trap of "androgynous lesbian character" but, on the other, how many AAA titles with leading LGBT characters did we have? Because I can't think of any other than Fear Effect which was an obvious case of pandering to straight men.
Also, if someone, who is a part of the LGBTQ+ community doesn't feel the need to represented in the media, then that's fine. But many do and I feel that it's extremely important. Especially for queer youth. It empowers poeple and stops them from feeling alone and invisible. I remember when, as a very young teenager, I was playing Fahrenheit and realised that a friend of one of the protagonists was gay. I felt like, "woah, I'm represented in my favorite medium", even though he appeared for like, I dunno, ten minutes and never reappeared.
No, but for certain a game will go for "porn lesbians". Straight male focused long nail lesbians.
I would love to see more videogame lesbians show a little diversity
SlipperyFishes
Banned
LGBT people are a fad?
Dragonslayer_023
Banned
What games are you thinking of where this is the case? Almost all games go with the manly or masculine lesbian trope. At least in the West.
thank you. I don't appreciate people dogpiling on Moff, when he was clearly trying to say very much this.
This is a game where you can turn into a shadow monster in order to get past people undetected or rip them in half, time travel at will, teleport, etc, it's not going for realism.
It's important because representation matters. It helps normalize minorities in the eyes of the general public (which is why negative stereotypes can be so harmful), it gives people heroes and role models that are like them, and for kids it might be the only way they learn about this stuff.
you know a LGBT character's story doesn't need to revolve around their LGBT-ness? You do know they're normal people, with normal issues, right? Apart from shoehorned love interests, a straight white male's story barely revovles around their heterosexuality.
also, AC:S ... so good
AC:S and Ubisoft in general has decent representation for most minorities and groups.
GandalftheRainbow
Neo Member
And, honestly, since when realism is a viable criteria in video games? Despite simulations and sport games. "Realism" is mostly brought when poeple want to attack putting LGBTQ+ poeple in games.
How is that helpful in anyway to the discussion?
I seriously don't understand how i represent a negative stereotype when i had previously said that i don't care if games have homosexual characters and that it is perfectly normal to be one. All i said that in most games sexuality doesn't really matter.
There are plenty of games that do at the very least strongly hint at their protagonists' sexual orientations, though. Just off the top of my head, there's God of War, The Last of Us, Uncharted, the first Dishonored, several of the Assassin's Creed games, Dante's Inferno,... All games that feature male protagonists who're shown to have sexual and/or romantic relationships with women and, in some cases, these relationships are either crucial to the story or at least add to it in a meaningful way but in quite a few cases they could've just as well had relationships with men and that wouldn't have made much of a difference (because even though the relationship itself may have been important, the gender of the protagonist's partner wasn't necessarily). Out of the examples I listed, I'd say pretty much every single one but the first Dishonored (and possibly Dante's Inferno) could've changed (one of) their characters' romantic or sexual relationship(s) to be a same-sex relationship without it having any negative impact on the story. That's not to say they should have necessarily, I'm not trying to criticise the creators of those games here, just trying to show you that your point is kinda non-sensical. Because yes, there are games where the characters' sexual orientations come up, no it's not always shoe-horned in and yes, when characters are shown to be in sexual or romantic relationships it wouldn't hurt to have a certain proportion of those relationships be of a homosexual nature.
Theanine3D
Member
This. You'd be surprised WaffleTaco by how many people are actually bi but stick to straight relationships because it's "safe." Way more than we've been led to believe.
hairygreenpeas
Neo Member
THIS.
I feel like there are a lot of femme lesbians on TV and video games and not enough tomboy/butch lesbians. They exist, people. It would be awesome to see such diversity represented in video games as well, though I have a feeling it's going to take game developers a while to do so given that many of them are just dipping their toes in making prominent LGBT characters. I could also imagine the outcry from people concerning character design, stereotypes, and sexuality.
RealityCheque
Banned
Does anyone remember when we played Mario and Sonic and this didn't matter?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
kamineko
Does his best thinking in the flying car
Does anyone remember when we played Mario and Sonic and this didn't matter?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Representation has always mattered to people, but it wasn't always ok to talk about it. It's still not OK for a lot of folks, who fondly misremember the repression of the past as innocence.
Back in those days, they also called AIDS "gay cancer" on the news. Remember that?
BossDarkseid
Member
noice. lgbt is a fad.
Go check the 3rd post in this thread by Bish.
And then check the one you made that is getting negative response.
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
Good news, for sure. Hope they handle the characters well.
In my opinion that's the right way of doing it, i might have jumped to conclusions but when the tweet said prominent characters all i could see them doing is making the character obviously gay, either by stereotypical mannerism or something like that.
Also somebody linked a picture from Assassins creed syndicate, and after checking the wiki on her she seemed like a cool side character done right.
Does anyone remember when we played Mario and Sonic and this didn't matter?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
The good old days when everyone was terrified of us because they thought they'd get AIDS if we so much as sneezed on them.
He. The wiki page even calls him a businessman.
Does anyone remember when we played Mario and Sonic and this didn't matter?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
I remember playing Phantasy Star II and IV and loving Nei and Alys, actually. It never didn't matter, people are just realizing it matters to more than just binary sexes.
Leks
Member
You can play both games without killing anyone, even the targets.
Awesome! 🎉🎉🎉🎉
Yeah it's pretty hard to applaud LGBT representation when it comes in the form of stereotypes. I don't like it when it's done to minorities so why like it when it's done to the LGBT community? It's just encouraging people to stereotype and that's unhealthy and counterproductive.
I think this situation would apply to the thread about the lack of empowered heterosexual female leads. This really drives the point home that a girl who's empowered or has masculine characteristics can't be straight.
Sorry if I seem to detract from the topic everyone. These two situations are definitely related however. There's a very toxic belief that masculine traits on a woman implies she's a lesbian and feminine characteristics on a man implies he's gay. As if the opposite is default and default is straight.
Let's hope this is how it's done. In a way that doesn't involve tasteless pandering to the perceived audiences desires or stereotypes that do more harm than good.
Yeah it's pretty hard to applaud LGBT representation when it comes in the form of stereotypes. I don't like it when it's done to minorities so why like it when it's done to the LGBT community? It's just encouraging people to stereotype and that's unhealthy and counterproductive.
I think this situation would apply to the thread about the lack of empowered heterosexual female leads. This really drives the point home that a girl who's empowered or has masculine characteristics can't be straight.
Sorry if I seem to detract from the topic everyone. These two situations are definitely related however. There's a very toxic belief that masculine traits on a woman implies she's a lesbian and feminine characteristics on a man implies he's gay. As if the opposite is default and default is straight.
Let's hope this is how it's done. In a way that doesn't involve tasteless pandering to the perceived audiences desires or stereotypes that do more harm than good.
Does anyone remember when we played Mario and Sonic and this didn't matter?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
I have some google proof that LGBT did matter in the time we played Mario and Sonic ... SPECIALY Sonic
RealityCheque
Banned
Honestly, I think I get it. It's horrible to be sidelined and ignored. It's not a situation I've been in to that degree and I bet it sucks in a huge way.
I think the thing that bugs me about this whole thing is that it feels like a lot of these huge businesses are pandering to a cultural trend without really meaning a word of it. And in a year or two we'll be back to muscle-bound white guys because that'll be the new-old hotness.
I'm probably not putting this in the right words and I'm probably offending someone but that's honestly just the way a lot of it comes across to me. Apologies if I'm upsetting anyone.
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
Ohhh? Really? Interesting... I shall investigate. Thanks!
Does anyone remember when we played Mario and Sonic and this didn't matter?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Ah yes, the good times when people believed gay people were child molesters and AIDs was seen as God's punishment for our sinful ways.
Also, Birdo:
And don't get me started on the Sonic x Tails fanfiction that started in the mid-90s... *shivers*
Nostalgic Nightmare
Member
If this helps people feel represented in games then thats great.
I don't know if I'm just numb or what, but I've never cared what I was playing as or what was represented in games but I do see this come up more and more. If people are feeling bonds to characters in games to this capacity then it's a great thing for gaming overall and just proves what an important medium it is and has become.
I don't know if I'm just numb or what, but I've never cared what I was playing as or what was represented in games but I do see this come up more and more. If people are feeling bonds to characters in games to this capacity then it's a great thing for gaming overall and just proves what an important medium it is and has become.
I wonder how they'll present those characters, since it isn't quite as simple as having a racial minority in your game. A character's sexuality is not apparent just from looking at them, and in some ways it can be a fine line figuring out how much to address it without doing it too much and making the sexuality define the character, which isn't great.
Gormless Noodle
Member
Ah yes, the good times when people believed gay people were child molesters and AIDs was seen as God's punishment for our sinful ways.
Also, Birdo:
And don't get me started on the Sonic x Tails fanfiction that started in the mid-90s... *shivers*
YOU LEAVE BIRDO ALONE!
Waylon Drums
Member
Does anyone remember when we played Mario and Sonic and this didn't matter?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Yup. That was about the time that young me was learning how terrible it is to be gay. Wasn't it awesome?
TharpDaddy
Member
I have a question about trans representation in games. Since the trans individual will just be a man or a woman, is it difficult to let the player know a character is trans without it coming across as overly blunt? It seems like it's harder to give subtle cues about someone being trans as compared to sexuality.
For example you can just have someone kiss their SO in a game, and if that person is the same gender then you know that person is gay, or even saying their SO's name can give insight into that character's sexuality. A trans person is just another man or woman, so it feels like it would be difficult to let the player know that a character is trans in a similarly subtle way. In an RPG I can see it being easier since you can have conversations with characters, so it can come up when discussing their backstory, but how do you do it in, say, a shooter? Are there any games that pull off a trans character well? Sorry if i'm not explaining this well.
For example you can just have someone kiss their SO in a game, and if that person is the same gender then you know that person is gay, or even saying their SO's name can give insight into that character's sexuality. A trans person is just another man or woman, so it feels like it would be difficult to let the player know that a character is trans in a similarly subtle way. In an RPG I can see it being easier since you can have conversations with characters, so it can come up when discussing their backstory, but how do you do it in, say, a shooter? Are there any games that pull off a trans character well? Sorry if i'm not explaining this well.
Moff
Member
first of all, I did not say a lesbian emily would be bad, any non-stereotype LGBT characters are good, no doubt. I just hope it won't be that because it would be a bit disappointing after that announcement and not that progressive. and I used the word "effective" when i actually should have specified more "progressive", but to clear up the confusion I will gladly elaborate on that.
as others pointed out, a lesbian would be "the easy way out", it's not progressive because girl on girl action is not perceived as negative in our society, unlike man on man action. I use the stupid term "action" here because I want to specify that I am not talking about real relationships here but the "wow that's hot dude" mentality when two girls kiss at a club and the men are cheering. that's not a real homosexual relationship but sadly that's what most lesbian relationships are reduced to in games and other media because that way, and only that way it pleases the straight white male audience. if the lesbians are not sexualized porn stars they are ridiculed like gay men, so this is clearly not about including LGBT but to produce eye candy for the male straight audience. only in very rare cases is that done right, I want to point out the last of us dlc here.
but dishonored, and I absolutely love that game, I finished it three times in a row and it's my favorite new franchise of the last generation, is very stylized game. it has a victorian and burlesque character design, which I love, but I don't see a grounded lesbian relationship possible here.
and because of those reasons I would think a straight female player character with a male romance option would actually be far more progressive, because that is something that is surprisingly rare in videogames. female player characters are rare enough but a forced female character with a forced male relationship is next to non existent. while the opposite is happening in almost every story driven game. of course nathan drake hooks up with his female companion, it's completely natural. lara croft however does not find romance, her male companion remains just a friend. playing AC: Syndicate last year made me realize how rare that is, because there Evie Frye is actually pursuing a romantic interest, but she is only one of two main characters and the focus was much more on her brother in the latter half of the game and the romantic interest more or less disappeared.
and this is the main reason why I think a straight female would be far more progressive. as much as I want lesbian players to have an experience in games that suits them, I think there is a far bigger neglected audience that has not had their due, yet. the straight female audience, and I think it would be great to include them more, and not only in RPGs where all kinds of romantic relationships are possible anyway.
Gormless Noodle
Member
I've had these thoughts before as well. As you said, it's easy in RPGs but becomes a lot harder in games where these things are never really mentioned in general. You could create situations where bigotry is used against the trans character to make it apparent though, or maybe just a small comment during a passing conversation but you risk laying it on too thick and the character being nothing more than their sexuality.
But as Bishoptl mentioned, it doesn't need to be written well I suppose. Most games aren't, so I'm not expecting much in the way of subtlety. Maybe that's even the correct way to go.
I cant wait to tell my friend she doesnt deserve a character who is like her in games because its not progressive and just the easy way out as if we have this infinite supply of short haired lesbians in gaming
Like representation if youre not a straight white male sucks all around, this fucking game of "Well its not ~*~*~*actually*~*~*~ progressive" just serves to dehumanize people whether you intended it to or not.
Like representation if youre not a straight white male sucks all around, this fucking game of "Well its not ~*~*~*actually*~*~*~ progressive" just serves to dehumanize people whether you intended it to or not.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
I'm just going by statistics. They also state that many people think there are more LGBT, black and Hispanic than there actually is. For instance only 9% actually believe that LGBT is <5%, and that's amongst the higher educated in America.
Moff
Member
I take it that's an answer to my post so I'll bite.
I feel you are intentionally misreading me, I certainly don't think lesbians do not deserve representation in games, I never said Arkane Studios should NOT do a lesbian Emily and I spezifically cleared up that I do not think it would be bad. Obviously it would still be better and more progressive than a straight romantic interest for a male player character.
I tried to make my point why I think a straight female player character with a male romantic interest would be more progressive and a bigger deal for the video game medium. If I failed to do that that's my fault, if other simply disagree that's ok, but don't twist my words and tell me I think lesbians don't deserve a character who is like them in games, that's not what I said (the opposite actually in the last paragraph) and I certainly don't feel that way.
Make it something that requires player participation. Press X to have a quick homosexual kiss.
But it's not optional. If you don't press X, it just stays on that scene with the two guys making soulful eyes at each other waiting for you to continue.
