Support NeoGAF

[Tak3n]

I feel like this in this thread

and for that reason I am going to take my leave, it is like wading through mud where any viewpoint against a fake utopia being promised is round upon

We are now at a point where experts for the remain camp can make all these wonderful flower filled promises about how your life will be so much better staying in....(of course it will for them) but the unwillingness to listen to any viewpoint based on the same conjecture as your so called experts is shouted down if it disagrees with them, you can not have it both ways you know.

some other leave voter can take up the mantel

Good luck on Friday, lets hope we vote leave, I wont be replying anymore

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

Man, now I'd kill for some pork scratchings... Will there be any effect on them if we leave?

Mr Porky may have to leave the UK and base his operations in Denmark.

 

[PJV3]

Man, now I'd kill for some pork scratchings... Will there be any effect on them if we leave?

We're going imperial and using old money.

You can get a quarter of British pork scratchings for £1, 8 shillings and thruppance.

 

[Camp Freddie]

There are obviously many reasons why the poor/working class are voting to leave. I am poor/working class and voting to leave because I believe this is the best chance the UK has of staying out of a United States of Europe. Do I give a shit about the middle class ? Nope, I care about the middle class about as much as they care about the poor and working class.

Naturally you think my decision is wrong I equally think people voting to remain are wrong and basing their decisions in part on lies they've been told by the remain campaign.

Really trying to understand the logic here.
The "middle class" have elected a government that has screwed over the "working class".
Your solution is to take power back from Europe and give it to the government.
Sure, that'll show 'em who's boss!

The working class would suffer disproportionately from Brexit. Food prices will go up and there will be a race-to-the-bottom cost-cutting/austerity drive by business and the public sector.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I feel like this in this thread

and for that reason I am going to take my leave, it is like wading through mud where any viewpoint against a fake utopia being promised is round upon

We are now at a point where experts for the remain camp can make all these wonderful flower filled promises about how your life will be so much better staying in....(of course it will for them) but the unwillingness to listen to any viewpoint based on the same conjecture as your so called experts is shouted down if it disagrees with them, you can not have it both ways you know.

some other leave voter can take up the mantel

Good luck on Friday, lets hope we vote leave

Please point me to the expert that is saying that this ruling will be overturned in the future then. Back your statements up with facts instead of taking sentences out of context. Because that image is exactly how most here feel talking to you I'm afraid.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

well remain and leave are using hypothetical to get your vote, but now it is not allowed?

do you think your 500 experts you remain lot keep rolling out every page really know what will happen

Nobody knows what will happen. Nobody is mystic meg.

That doesn't mean people can't make very good predictions for for what will and won't happen.

For instance, I'm quite sure that if we vote to leave, the world won't end, even if it does get shitter. It also will not turn out to have been a divine test from the lord and that on a vote to leave, he actually won't take his chosen people the British to dine with him now that all the darker skin coloured people are gone.

Now obviously not being an economist, I can't really make good predictions on that front. But I trust the large majority of educated people in that field that are saying, "you know what, leaving is probably a bad idea".

The biggest problem with leave is they have no plan. When scotland had a referendum from the UK, they had a 600page document anyone could read ont he steps the country would take on leaving.
http://www.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf
The "leave" campaign has either got fuck all in terms of a hard plan like that, or its so poorly known about that very few are aware of it. Which is why I think voting leave is insanity, they've got no idea what they'll do if they actually win.

 

[Wrestlemania]

I feel like this in this thread

and for that reason I am going to take my leave, it is like wading through mud where any viewpoint against a fake utopia being promised is round upon

We are now at a point where experts for the remain camp can make all these wonderful flower filled promises about how your life will be so much better staying in....(of course it will for them) but the unwillingness to listen to any viewpoint based on the same conjecture as your so called experts is shouted down if it disagrees with them, you can not have it both ways you know.

some other leave voter can take up the mantel

Good luck on Friday, lets hope we vote leave, I wont be replying anymore

Bye!

 

[jufonuk]

I feel like this in this thread

and for that reason I am going to take my leave, it is like wading through mud where any viewpoint against a fake utopia being promised is round upon

We are now at a point where experts for the remain camp can make all these wonderful flower filled promises about how your life will be so much better staying in....(of course it will for them) but the unwillingness to listen to any viewpoint based on the same conjecture as your so called experts is shouted down if it disagrees with them, you can not have it both ways you know.

some other leave voter can take up the mantel

Good luck on Friday, lets hope we vote leave

If any leave people had an argument that didn't delve into immigrants , Brussels or take back control and presented hard data and plans . I would listen. I would read more and I would take it in.

 

[Hasney]

They'll be considerably more British and delicious.

Mr Porky may have to leave the UK and base his operations in Denmark.

We're going imperial and using old money.

You can get a quarter of British pork scratchings for £1, 8 shillings and thruppance.

Damn, all compelling reasons to vote leave/ Especially the second one because FUCK Mr. Porky. Mr. Trotter is where it's at.

 

[Undead]

The question we are being asked is
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union"

Nowhere does it even suggest that we will have no EU rules in force.
Nowhere does it even suggest that we will have no payments to the EU.
There isn't even a hint of regaining democracy in the question.

Look at Norway and Switzerland, they aren't members and yet they still have a shitload of EU rules in place.

Both campaigns can say all the lies they like right now but bottom line is they can accept any future EU deals which include freedom of movement etc.. because ultimately they can turn round and say you didn't vote to get rid of these rules, you only voted to have no say in the running of the EU.

Considering how many times politicians are so hypocritical vocally and use wording to get around certain things, am I wrong in thinking this?

 

[cabot]

Did Tak3n just commit Threxit?


Didn't see that one coming, I'm floored.

 

[PJV3]

Did Tak3n just commit Threxit?


Didn't see that one coming, I'm floored.

When will he start negotiating?

 

[Kabouter]

Considering how many times politicians are so hypocritical vocally and use wording to get around certain things, am I wrong in thinking this?

Probably not, no.

 

[Number45]

The question we are being asked is
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union"

Nowhere does it even suggest that we will have no EU rules in force.
Nowhere does it even suggest that we will have no payments to the EU.
There isn't even a hint of regaining democracy in the question.

Look at Norway and Switzerland, they aren't members and yet they still have a shitload of EU rules in place.

Both campaigns can say all the lies they like right now but bottom line is they can accept any future EU deals which include freedom of movement etc.. because ultimately they can turn round and say you didn't vote to get rid of these rules, you only voted to have no say in the running of the EU.

Considering how many times politicians are so hypocritical vocally and use wording to get around certain things, am I wrong in thinking this?

This was posted here a few pages back and answers those exact questions (and pretty much comes to the same conclusion). Worth a watch - not at all biased in its analysis of the points he addresses and by someone who's job it is to analyse this kind of thing.

 

[RedSparrows]

It's quite astounding the amount of people that don't understand that this is a two way street.

That's a pretty common failing, actually. Just look at the image the darker side of Leave presents: Britain, prostrate, helpless, utterly at the mercy of foreign deviousness. There is never, never, EVER a bit of news about British success in Europe, British negotiation, British initiative, British exploitation, British manipulation, i.e. anything pro-active, for good or ill.

No. We apparently live in a world where foreigners take both our jobs and our benefits, nothing is done that is of any benefit to Britons, who are the hardest done by people in the world. Everything has been deliberately engineered to fuck us over.

 

[cabot]

When will he start negotiating?

QuicheFontaine must help show us the way, as OP.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

Really trying to understand the logic here.
The "middle class" have elected a government that has screwed over the "working class".
Your solution is to take power back from Europe and give it to the government.
Sure, that'll show 'em who's boss!

The working class would suffer disproportionately from Brexit. Food prices will go up and there will be a race-to-the-bottom cost-cutting/austerity drive by business and the public sector.

The Tory Government will not be in power forever (hell at the rate they are fucking up they may not even be in power next week). Now if I could do something about the Tory Government today I would. Right now I can't but I have been given an opportunity to leave an organisation I do not like and do not want to be a part of. If that hands more power to the Tories then that is an unfortunate price to pay to leave an organisation I fundamentally disagree with and want no part in.

As for the "but but you will face food price hikes, austerity and race to the bottom" what you mean like how the poor are already facing food price hikes, austerity and the race to the bottom. All the doom and gloom the remain side are spouting the poor are already facing. The poor and working class literally have nothing else to lose.

 

[Maledict]

That's a pretty common failing, actually. Just look at the image the darker side of Leave presents: Britain, prostrate, helpless, utterly at the mercy of foreign deviousness. There is never, never, EVER a bit of news about British success in Europe, British negotiation, British initiative, British exploitation, British manipulation, i.e. anything pro-active, for good or ill.

No. We apparently live in a world where foreigners take both our jobs and our benefits, nothing is done that is of any benefit to Britons, who are the hardest done by people in the world. Everything has been deliberately engineered to fuck us over.

Considering that we were the major EU power pushing for eastern expansion, it's amazingly hypocritical. We were right to do that, and now we may leave because of it...

 

[liquidtmd]

That's a pretty common failing, actually. Just look at the image the darker side of Leave presents: Britain, prostrate, helpless, utterly at the mercy of foreign deviousness. There is never, never, EVER a bit of news about British success in Europe, British negotiation, British initiative, British exploitation, British manipulation, i.e. anything pro-active, for good or ill.

No. We apparently live in a world where foreigners take both our jobs and our benefits, nothing is done that is of any benefit to Britons, who are the hardest done by people in the world. Everything has been deliberately engineered to fuck us over.

Absolutely, although I'd argue the same about an equally Darker side of the Remain Camp that paints everyone who wants to Leave as racists, Little Englanders or (as Cameron inferred on QT on Sunday) just 'confused'.

The middle ground, sensible voters trying to cut through the extreme views of both Campaigns are having to do a lot more digging.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Absolutely, although I'd argue the same about an equally Darker side of the Remain Camp that paints everyone who wants to Leave as racists, Little Englanders or (as Cameron inferred on QT on Sunday) just 'confused'.

The middle ground, sensible voters trying to cut through the extreme views of both Campaigns are having to do a lot more digging.

I feel that is the way politics in general has been heading over the past years sadly. Lots of yelling and no substance.

 

[jufonuk]

Why couldn't this be should we remain with these deals In place or vote to change and renegotiate .

Not stay or fuck off into the unknown

 

[Kabouter]

I feel that is the way politics in general has been heading over the past years sadly. Lots of yelling and no substance.

Apart from the general trend which I agree exists, I think a harsh tone also stems from the fact that it's two completely opposed choices you're given. There is no room for nuance in the voting, which also makes nuance rare in the debate.

 

[liquidtmd]

.

 

[PJV3]

Why couldn't this be should we remain with these deals In place or vote to change and renegotiate .

Not stay or fuck off into the unknown

There was a good article recently about how little the English actually talk about what they want or the nation to look like.

So if we leave it will probably kick start a chain reaction of highly contentious decisions. Should be fun.

 

[danowat]

Why couldn't this be should we remain with these deals In place or vote to change and renegotiate .

Not stay or fuck off into the unknown

Many people can barely get their head around stay or leave, let alone another option.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

QuicheFontaine must help show us the way, as OP.

I'm just the public face of the thread. The real machinations will take place behind the scenes by unelected bureaucrats (Mods).

 

[Camp Freddie]

I feel like this in this thread

and for that reason I am going to take my leave, it is like wading through mud where any viewpoint against a fake utopia being promised is round upon

We are now at a point where experts for the remain camp can make all these wonderful flower filled promises about how your life will be so much better staying in....(of course it will for them) but the unwillingness to listen to any viewpoint based on the same conjecture as your so called experts is shouted down if it disagrees with them, you can not have it both ways you know.

Pretty sure the remain argument is "things will stay the same", rather than saying that things will reach some sort of utopia.
The main argument from remain is that leaving will fuck shit up and be a massive step backwards that is obviously against our own interests.

Until recently, my next door neighbours were a Polish couple. When we were kids, we were enemies in a cold war. Thanks to the EU, we were mowing each others lawns and borrowing each other's power tools - instead of waiting to see who gets nuked first, or subsequently wondering what happens to a bunch of failed states that have a large population of unemployed men of fighting age.

 

[jufonuk]

http://newsthump.com/2016/06/20/majority-of-lemmings-in-favour-of-jumping-off-cliff/


My reasons for staying are its not perfect as it is but isn't the worse either and leaving will probably screw it up even more so.

Plus I like having my human rights and other sensible laws . Oh an I have a massive area I could choose to visit and stay in and work should I wish.

I hate our island mentality sometimes . We act like we are hot shit and johnny big bollocks.. Sometimes I am embarrassed by the English and this brexit thing is bringing the worse out in people. From both sides yes. But the leave camp are looking batshit at times

 

[JonathanEx]

Also most of the Michael Gove experts line seems to have wonderfully predicted in a comedy sketch five years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrhjWjhi1Pw&feature=youtu.be

 

[RedSparrows]

Absolutely, although I'd argue the same about an equally Darker side of the Remain Camp that paints everyone who wants to Leave as racists, Little Englanders or (as Cameron inferred on QT on Sunday) just 'confused'.

The middle ground, sensible voters trying to cut through the extreme views of both Campaigns are having to do a lot more digging.

Aye, there is a condescending attitude towards much of the Leave camp. That said, that is at times somewhat accurate. There are a bunch of racist idiots panting about the EU's evils.

Where it's not accurate is where Labour and co need to step the fuck in.

 

[Psychotext]

The poor and working class literally have nothing else to lose.

That shows a severe lack of imagination. No matter how bad things get, they can always get a hell of a lot worse.

 

[OverBlood 3]

I feel like this in this thread

and for that reason I am going to take my leave, it is like wading through mud where any viewpoint against a fake utopia being promised is round upon

We are now at a point where experts for the remain camp can make all these wonderful flower filled promises about how your life will be so much better staying in....(of course it will for them) but the unwillingness to listen to any viewpoint based on the same conjecture as your so called experts is shouted down if it disagrees with them, you can not have it both ways you know.

some other leave voter can take up the mantel

Good luck on Friday, lets hope we vote leave, I wont be replying anymore

Bye

 

[Kabouter]

That shows a severe lack of imagination. No matter how bad things get, they can always get a hell of a lot worse.

While that is true, and they probably will get worse if leave wins, if things are already bad, you can't really expect someone to enthusiastically support the status quo.

 

[RedSparrows]

Also most of the Michael Gove experts line seems to have wonderfully predicted in a comedy sketch five years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrhjWjhi1Pw&feature=youtu.be

Finnemore is great. Nails it. 100%.

 

[ferrasvansen]

While that is true, and they probably will get worse if leave wins, if things are already bad, you can't really expect someone to enthusiastically support the status quo.

Very true but the folk who think waking up on Friday to a leave vote will mean quick changes and such happening are in for a shock. I can't wait to Boris Johnson goes on tv to explain ok folks we left the EU but we retained single market status, oh and free movement remains, can you imagine the reaction.

 

[Ashes]

Not saying there is a issue, I was merely a response to a map that showed just how weird it looks with the counties...that is all

All it shows is that the cities are more efficient at herding people than counties.
If you had towers representing population you'd see how flat GB&NI mostly is, with huge spikes in certain areas.

 

[Kabouter]

Very true but the folk who think waking up on Friday to a leave vote will mean quick changes and such happening are in for a shock. I can't wait to Boris Johnson goes on tv to explain ok folks we left the EU but we retained single market status, oh and free movement remains, can you imagine the reaction.

I don't believe he will to be honest. Given what was campaigned on, they can't go back to the voters and say that they did nothing about EEA immigration. I think Britain will have to exit the single market if it votes leave, there's no room to maneuver there for the leave side.

 

[King_Moc]

Very true but the folk who think waking up on Friday to a leave vote will mean quick changes and such happening are in for a shock. I can't wait to Boris Johnson goes on tv to explain ok folks we left the EU but we retained single market status, oh and free movement remains, can you imagine the reaction.

But your workers rights and minimum standards for food etc are gone. Also immigration will be through the roof for the next two years.

I'll just have to convince myself to enjoy watching the world burn. I guess.

 

[ferrasvansen]

I don't believe he will to be honest. Given what was campaigned on, they can't go back to the voters and say that they did nothing about immigration. I think Britain will have to exit the single market if it votes leave, there's no room to maneuver there for the leave side.

Then they risk literally millions of jobs and explaining of many more millions why everyone is much worse off, either way they lose. They will also lose half their voting base, ah well good things often come out of bad things in the end.

 

[Hasney]

Aye, there is a condescending attitude towards much of the Leave camp. That said, that is at times somewhat accurate. There are a bunch of racist idiots panting about the EU's evils.

Where it's not accurate is where Labour and co need to step the fuck in.

It's true, and the stupidest thing Leave ever did was to let celebrity racist Nigel Farage join in. His views aren't exactly well hidden despite what he tries to say in public.

Much like in America, I'm sure there are some voters that are on the fence as they want republican values in their president, but are pushed away because they don't want to get behind Trump. What reasonable right winger wants to hitch their trailer to Farage?

It is hard not to kneejerk when immigration comes up and think that's where a lot of leave are racist when Farage is the one talking the most about it. If he was out of the picture, I'm sure the discourse in general would have at least bee slightly higher.

 

[liquidtmd]

Aye, there is a condescending attitude towards much of the Leave camp. That said, that is at times somewhat accurate. There are a bunch of racist idiots panting about the EU's evils.

Where it's not accurate is where Labour and co need to step the fuck in.

Agreed.

IMO the Remain campaign could have done a hell of a lot better in addressing this concern and specifically the distinction more directly and made this not come down so close to the wire.

Conversely, how Farage has been allowed to become effectively the face of the Leave Campaign is bemusing. I appreciate the media and press will flock to Farage because he winds people and an audience up, hence ratings, but a co-ordinated Leave Campaign if they meant business would have seriously locked him down about a week ago.

At this point - Im voting Remain. Barely. For reasons I won't go into. However I feel Leave lost the momentum with that 'Breaking Point / Farage' moment last week and that has unsurped them and I feel that's a shame - if Leave were going to be defeated, it would have been far better to dismantle the Brexiters legitimate concerns one by one head on than have some UKIP idiot pimp some godawful poster that was a PR misfire.

Because, as such, the concerns of such a crowd go unanswered and they all get tarred with the Farage brush. Which leads to simmering discontent for another day.

 

[Jackpot]

I feel like this in this thread

and for that reason I am going to take my leave, it is like wading through mud where any viewpoint against a fake utopia being promised is round upon

We are now at a point where experts for the remain camp can make all these wonderful flower filled promises about how your life will be so much better staying in....(of course it will for them) but the unwillingness to listen to any viewpoint based on the same conjecture as your so called experts is shouted down if it disagrees with them, you can not have it both ways you know.

some other leave voter can take up the mantel

Good luck on Friday, lets hope we vote leave, I wont be replying anymore

Hypocrisy is staggering. You perfectly encapsulate the small-minded stereotype who can't handle reality. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[ferrasvansen]

But your workers rights and minimum standards for food etc are gone. Also immigration will be through the roof for the next two years.

I'll just have to convince myself to enjoy watching the world burn. I guess.

Oh I won't enjoy it, it's going to be painful. But I will enjoy it when the Tory press turns against him as they often do when unemployment etc starts rising again in large amounts and middle England suffers. I wish somehow I could watch from the outside, guess I just have to hope Scotland breaks free.

 

[Ashes]

I don't think I like the idea of this daily mail/metro stealth support of leave by taking advertising money instead of declaring it themselves. Seems really shady.

Same owners. Same political leanings.

 

[PJV3]

Oh I won't enjoy it, it's going to be painful. But I will enjoy it when the Tory press turns against him as they often do when unemployment etc starts rising again in large amounts and middle England suffers. I wish somehow I could watch from the outside, guess I just have to hope Scotland breaks free.

You need Boris asap.

Scotland Tories will split off from the main group.

 

[Garjon]

So if we Leave the EU (and after asking people at work, I am now preparing myself for that to be an inevitability) are we going to join the EEA like Switzerland? I know a lot of Leavers are dead against any sort of free movement and some of the Leave campaign has talked about blocking that but I've seen more than a few people on Twitter etc saying we should go the Switzerland/Norway route.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

Same owners. Same political leanings.

Yeah, I know. That's why I mentioned both ;]

 

[Hasney]

Oh I won't enjoy it, it's going to be painful. But I will enjoy it when the Tory press turns against him as they often do when unemployment etc starts rising again in large amounts and middle England suffers. I wish somehow I could watch from the outside, guess I just have to hope Scotland breaks free.

The negotiations will be done by the Prime Minister though. I think Boris will quickly go out of the limelight outside of some cabinet job if Leave wins and let all the issues happen, then mount a leadership challenge when it looks recoverable. He is far too smart to be the face of leaving the EU after the initial cheering.

So if we Leave the EU (and after asking people at work, I am now preparing myself for that to be an inevitability) are we going to join the EEA like Switzerland? I know a lot of Leavers are dead against any sort of free movement and some of the Leave campaign has talked about blocking that but I've seen more than a few people on Twitter etc saying we should go the Switzerland/Norway route.

Nobody knows. It's a vote to pull out, but nobody knows how much we will actually leave.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Did anyone here the newsbeat interview with a guy (Wade) working in Zante?

He said he wanted to leave because all the migrants coming over here and taking our jobs, when challenged on the irony of him working in Greece, he said, well, they just come over to England and sit around and claim benefits.

Beggers belief that there are people like that out there.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07f28zb

Starts about 8mins in.

Just wait until the million or so expats get kicked back from the Costa Del Sol after a Brexit, sure they'll all be claiming some sort of social support.

 

[Moobabe]

Agreed.

IMO the Remain campaign could have done a hell of a lot better in addressing this concern and specifically the distinction more directly and made this not come down so close to the wire.

Conversely, how Farage has been allowed to become effectively the face of the Leave Campaign is bemusing. I appreciate the media and press will flock to Farage because he winds people and an audience up, hence ratings, but a co-ordinated Leave Campaign if they meant business would have seriously locked him down about a week ago.

At this point - Im voting Remain. Barely. For reasons I won't go into. However I feel Leave lost the momentum with that 'Breaking Point / Farage' moment last week and that has unsurped them and I feel that's a shame - if Leave were going to be defeated, it would have been far better to dismantle the Brexiters legitimate concerns one by one head on than have some UKIP idiot pimp some godawful poster that was a PR misfire.

Because, as such, the concerns of such a crowd go unanswered and they all get tarred with the Farage brush. Which leads to simmering discontent for another day.

On the bolded. I wouldn't be surprised if Farage has been "allowed" to become the face of Leave so that if we do vote to remain the failings of the leave campaign can be pinned on him - while Gove and Johnson distance themselves from him in an attempt to save face.