Several French cities ban Burkinis on beaches, citing "public order" concerns
- Thread starter RustyNails
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I'm not sweet talking anything, I'm referring to a basic fundamental human right, something you are complaining that the "other" violate whilst simultaneously toying with the idea of revoke the rights of others.
The only one suffering from cognitive dissonance is you.
I don't agree with wahabism or salafist belief but I also don't agree that changing someone's belief by banning the most benign forms of it out of some sort of misguided public safety policy.
And additionally, if you think women cannot make decisions for themselves unless society does the thinking for them, I don't know what to say.
If you feel any way for those women though, the first priority would be to create safe spaces for them to wear what they want to wear without judgement and engage with other French women who have differing worldviews.
It would probably be overruled otherwise... A kind of trick, I'd say (think how Al Capone was convicted for tax issues). And I think the security reasons are strange, because there's plently of clothes that make concealing a gun easier, to me.
Well, you won't kill a lot of people on the beach after 15 september even if you tried... There's far "better" targets once the summer is over.
The security issue is about fightings that could start at the beach between muslims and the others people like in sissco
That's the allegated reason, so that it maybe could be enforced, but I'm definitively not sure it's the real reason.
Well, I don't think ANYONE can really make decision to themselves, the pressure from the society is huge, and totally unnoticed. People tend to behave like others, even for details. That's an animal behavior that we won't completely part from.
I don't think it would work, and I think it would be even worse.
The "problem" with thing like that is not the people that decide to wear them. They can do what the want, if it's their choice (although even that is a tricky question).
The main issue I see is the social pressure those behavior can do on other people with similar religious beliefs. Like "they're doing this and I don't, I must be wrong". I think that's really the issue at hand.
And having separate spaces (even if it was possible, which I kinda doubt), would be worse, like "I should go in the place where people with similar beliefs as mine went", thus increasing the pressure.
There's probably no good solution to this...
I've listen to lawyers and politics discussing the matter. They couldn't even agree on which ground the "security concerns" were based. I seriously doubt it's that cleared cut.
eot
Banned
Facts about how Islam is practiced in western nation is not part of a conspiracy theory. Being tolerant towards misogynistic, intolerant subcultures is just as bad as islamophobia.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
There is not such thing as a monolithic culture. You have expression of islam which are misogynistic as you have in any religious community. To say that most of the muslim western subculture are like that, is not knowing theses communities from first hand. You have anything from feminist and gayfriendly muslim to hardcore fundamentalist puritans.
eot
Banned
Why do you assume I have no first hand experience with muslim culture in the west?
And no, I can't say that every muslim community is the same, but I can still extrapolate from my experience and see patterns in how they express themselves. To be frank, my benefit of the doubt account is running quite low on this particular issue.
If you happen to be a practicing muslim who doesn't hold any backwards ass views, then I understand why people attacking Islam would bother you because it seems an attack on you as well. But I can't help you with that because I think parts of Islam need attacking.
And no, I can't say that every muslim community is the same, but I can still extrapolate from my experience and see patterns in how they express themselves. To be frank, my benefit of the doubt account is running quite low on this particular issue.
If you happen to be a practicing muslim who doesn't hold any backwards ass views, then I understand why people attacking Islam would bother you because it seems an attack on you as well. But I can't help you with that because I think parts of Islam need attacking.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Because it have nothing to do with the community i know and i am part of.
Just speak to the radicals and they will tell you what they think about the muslims masses.
Part of the issue is that it's mostly the radicals men who wear islamic garnment, so they are doing bad press to the entire group. At least is like that in France.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
Take THAT terrorism!!
Emperor_Uriel
Member
While I'm not in favor of the ban, if you become a radical because a country is telling you not to wear a certain article of clothing, you probably weren't a gem of a person to begin with.
I also think that every country has the right to say "this is our identity and if you don't like it, then you can leave." It's not the cuddliest of messages, sure, but I can understand France's stance that all of its citizens should be French first and foremost, especially before religion.
It's literally blowing my mind that someone can say/type this with a straight face in 2016.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
What being french have to do with wearing this thing or the other at the beach ?
One hundred years ago, most french women would have been to the beach fully dressed.
Since when religion have something to do with one nationality, you have thousands of conversion to Islam each year in France, those are not french anymore? French is supposed to be a secular state, so the national belonging have nothing to do with one religion.
This is a quiet totalitarian vision of a country identity.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It was actually made by a professional surfer and it's officially use in the lifeguards teams in Australia.
That doesnt work if your French, and this play of identity politics is a backwards way of thinking. Women can still wear a body suit and a Hijab if they like, but for families that already feel they're being marginilised, this does nothing but prove the state is working against them and believe they're radicals, outsiders, unwanted. More division, more mistrust at a time where theres already increasing tension. They really need to be working together, not this.
How does "working together" look like in your eyes?
Maybe some people think the existence of the burkini finally let's all those women who weren't "allowed" (or whatever reason) to go to the beach now participate, when the reality is probably that many (among the group) of those who went to the beach in normal clothing before will now wear this instead because with time the idea of "faithful muslim women have to wear this, the others are disgusting sluts" is being established by radical groups.
By being labeled as an extremist and a danger to simply cover yourself is not helping in anyway, to curb whatever action that causes these mass killings you need community trust, this sends the opposite message, just shows that they'll bend the law to curb your rights and will continue to.
If they believed they were "disgusting sluts" doubt they'd go to the beach to be surrounded by them. Maybe, just maybe, they were cool with those around them making thier choices. But now, the town is safe to call burkini users extremist and oppressed !
velociraptor
Junior Member
wow, some women really do look beautiful in the hijab.Burqa:
Hijab:
Burkini:
Burkini is obviously closer to hijab than burka.
I could understand a ban on something like the burqa, but this ban doesn't make any sense to me.
I don't see what this will achieve besides creating further friction between the Muslim community in France. You would think it would be smarter to build, as opposed to burn, any remaining bridges.
PdotMichael
Banned
Too bad that wearing a Burqa has the goal of isolating the women from the rest of society.
That was my thought at first, but it's actually not a similat situation. men were also fully dressed, so there wasn't a question of a possible influence of one sex over another (even if there was at this time).
From a philosophical point of view, I don't like those clothing rules. It's actually one of those kind of things that convince me that those religions are products of men and not of (a) g/God (I'm not talking about muslims in particular, it's the same for catholics for example, even if they're "clever" enough to have an escape path in that "there may be mistakes in the books").
I think ban won't help, but at the same time, I can't see what would help.
Well, except if a God exists and decide to come to say "stop with all your nonsense"... ^_^ And I'm sure that still wouldn't be enough.
100% agree.
"But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her headit is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.
7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels."
(New Testament 1cor11,3)
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimār over their breasts and not display their beauty except to their husband, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their (Muslim) women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.
(Quran 24:31)
Any way i look at it , i don't see how could this possibly be compatible with human dignity.
"But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her headit is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.
7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels."
(New Testament 1cor11,3)
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimār over their breasts and not display their beauty except to their husband, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their (Muslim) women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.
(Quran 24:31)
Any way i look at it , i don't see how could this possibly be compatible with human dignity.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Clothing is understood as part of humility and dignity in the religion, and a practicing muslim man would not go to the beach without a t-shirt, or even at the beach at all. Nudity is actually a really big deal for a muslim, it's why the picture of Abu Ghraib were so traumatizing for the muslim world. The exposition of the body is seen as the violation of the sacrality of the self.
The thing you mentioned about christian-muslim relation to their Book it's not at all a secondary issue. It's because Muslims have the same relation with the Quran than christian have with Jesus. Like hinduism or judaism, it's a religion based a lot more on the divine discourse, incarnated in an actual book than in an actual person, like Jesus or Buddha in christianity and buddhism.
For us, the Quran is the actual Word of God as for Christian the Word of God is Jesus itself. It's there is such an emphasis on the arabic language as a sacred language but very few christian will bother learn aramaic to understand the original gospel, since the Spirit of God speak the same through any translation. For us, the actual word is really important.
excelsiorlef
Member
How is that a response to the post you quoted?
Silent Chief
Member
The hijab originated in Syria and Iran, before the days of Muhammad and were a sign of social status since it's totally unpractical to women who had to work in the fields.
And yet, it doesn't appear to be mentioned directly in any verse.
I think the burkini looks ridiculous, but no more than many other cultural garbs.
I don't wear my "chemise carrotee" with my "ceinture flechee".
I don't expect the ban to be upheld long term. Aren't there topless women on those beaches?
And yet, it doesn't appear to be mentioned directly in any verse.
I think the burkini looks ridiculous, but no more than many other cultural garbs.
I don't wear my "chemise carrotee" with my "ceinture flechee".
I don't expect the ban to be upheld long term. Aren't there topless women on those beaches?
This incident seems to be the reason for the ban, I didn't see it mentioned here.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37077837
Seems perfectly justified if people rioting over some photos.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37077837
Seems perfectly justified if people rioting over some photos.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Quran (24:31):
"that they should draw their khimār over their breasts and not display their beauty"
The world khimar mean what we call today "hijab" in classical arabic, it's any garment that cover the hair.
You have a great explanation of the verse by Nouman Ali Khan.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
What human dignity have to do with covering ? Are we lacking dignity because we are all in burqa according the the norms of amazonian tribes ?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It have nothing to do with burkini ban since nobody was wearing burkini at this beach.
It's unrelated.
RevolverRoden
Member
I agree. Why don't people just wear normal (western) clothes? Enough with this ridiculous cultural wear.
BarringGaffner
Member
How do people not understand the difference between burkini's and wetsuits? One is there to oppress women, one protects you from the cold. Even when women say they choose to wear it, we have to question that as they are part of a culture where they unfortunately live in fear of being divorced from their families, or worse, for not wearing things like this.
I don't agree with banning it, but the difference is quite clear. It's a shame it was banned as a dumb response to the terrorist attacks.
I don't agree with banning it, but the difference is quite clear. It's a shame it was banned as a dumb response to the terrorist attacks.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Religion is not a culture and burkini is not a cultural wear. It's about covering body parts. Traditionally in many muslim countries, women and men used to go to the beach with their clothes on. Burkini is a modern phenomenon who try to accommodate modern concept of beaching and watersports and islamic piety.
RevolverRoden
Member
Hahahahahahaha there it is
I know. I was just sarcastically replying to that one comment
victreeb3l
Member
walking fiend
Member
And banning Burqa will only isolate them even more.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Or maybe they just want to live according to their faith ?
This is clearly sexist by the way, to deny even the possibility of muslim women agency based on cultural prejudice.
As always, i am pointing out the irony of the fact that as a muslim man i can wear a muslim dress covering my body parts as a burkini will do, but if a woman want the same, she will be called an "alienated poor oppressed creature unable to know what she really want".
Doesn't matter if she is a single convert, it must be the father/brother/husband forcing her to do so.
Just stop judging women about how they dress.
BarringGaffner
Member
That is absolutely possible as well.
walking fiend
Member
They are not enlightened enough in the way of bikini
RevolverRoden
Member
I don't like to write "/s" but I probably should heheh
No man its all oppression. Even if they don't know it. Even if women think they're practicing the faith they actually believe in. It's all internalized oppression. The only way for a woman to be free is to live according to western values.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
My sarcasm-o-meter is quite broken
BarringGaffner
Member
I am not denying the possibility. Are you denying the possibility that women wear burkini's because they live in fear of divorce from their family?
Also, do you think this is exclusive to women? Men aren't forced to wear burqa's but they live in the same fear of leaving religious faiths and all that entails.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
No i don't deny the possibility,but i don't have any reason to believe it's the case. I know many muslim women in France with different degree of religious practice and i never saw fear as a criteria. Most of them would wear hijab if it was not so damn hard in the french society, especially to find a job.
Surely it's exist but it's not something exclusive to muslim communities. I can evoke to you a convert woman who was beaten up by her christian husband everytime he saw her praying. That say anything about christians ? Nope.
Are you saying that i am living in fear? Without knowing it?
Now that's scary.
Regginator
Member
People here seem to conveniently forget the real problem: that a big decision like this can be made due to a meaningless reason as "public order". Meaning, what if in a few year the white French people decide they don't want people to wear hijabs/headscarves on the street, citing "public order", how would the majority of you react then? This is the exact same thing.
excelsiorlef
Member
Nevermind jumped too fast.
victreeb3l
Member
Cant be too sure these days!
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