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Pokémon Sun & Moon | Info and speculation thread
- Thread starter Galava
- Start date
Dude, you're basically saying "because I say so". You can't sit there and say that there factually are not 4 new ice types and 5 new dark types just because they don't fit your silly criteria.
So the one thing that has classified every new Pokemon up until now doesn't matter just because you say so?
Neoleo2143
Member
Amusingly, the term "Alolan _____" doesn't actually exist in the game when talking to the inhabitants of Alola. Alolan Meowth is just a Meowth to them. I suppose you have a point in that regard, But when Alolan Pokemon are far different from the normal Form change of past games (They often didn't change the overworld behavior, nor did they drastically overhaul the movesets, most were like Oricorio Forms), one can implicitly treat them as effectively new pokemon.
So if they changed the color of Charizard tail fire to purple and gave it a new dex number while maintaining its typing, move pool, and base stats, you would consider that a new Pokemon? And not these significantly different creatures that add diversity to the line-up? Does that not sound tremendously stupid to you? Dex number being the ONLY defining trait that makes every single species of Pokemon different in the face of height, weight, type, appearance, stats, and move pool makes no sense whatsoever, and ,again, is tantamount to saying "because I said so".
Yes but nothing like that has ever happened before. Stuff like that is rightfully relegated to being just a different form like the various Unown.
If you don;t have to catch it to complete the Pokedex then it's not a new Pokemon.
Neoleo2143
Member
They are Sub Species. Though, not really related to pokemon I recall that an originally endangered species got reclassified as a subspecies actually ended up in having them taken off the endangered species list. It's kinda silly if you ask me to not consider Sub species to be new animals.
I couldn't catch an Alolan Ninetails in gen 6. I can in gen 5, thus it is a new pokémon for me.
I think it's something that is in the eyes of the beholder. I would personally never consider rotom wash or rotom heat the same pokémon, but yes they have the same pokédex number.
Ultimately it doesn't really matter. It's new content for a new game that many are looking forward to!
I think it's something that is in the eyes of the beholder. I would personally never consider rotom wash or rotom heat the same pokémon, but yes they have the same pokédex number.
Ultimately it doesn't really matter. It's new content for a new game that many are looking forward to!
I agree, but my thinking was that Pokemon doesn't seem to be going too deep with it. On second thought you could consider the different forms listed in the Pokedex as a listing of sub species I guess.
Hey, that's a neat thing to do, here's mine (apologies for the lazy Paint job):
I absolutely do not care for Alolan Forms. Exeggutor gets a pass because dank memes.
Didn't color the final starter evos yet because I want to see them in motion first and get a few more details (typing, lore and such).
Please show me where a single person involved in the creation of Pokemon has ever stated that nonsense. Just because you made up this
to be blunt, completely horseshit
If it's not classified as a new Pokemon then it's not a new Pokemon. There doesn't have to be any room for nuance.
Sparkedglory
Member
Eh, I don't consider Alolan forms new Pokemon personally. They're certainly new, but they're still Pokemon we'be seen before
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Some of the Alola forms are pushing the "regional variant" thing pretty damn far honestly. Marowak and Exceggutor could definitely pass for third stage evos if nobody knew better.
So type, appearance, stats, move pool, and differences in height and weight contribute absolutely nothing to being a new Pokemon? I'm sorry, but no. That's just flat out wrong.
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
UK GAF, where's the place most likely to get this to me for launch day or earlier? I don't think amazon are that reliable anymore.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
They already do stuff like this and very purposefully don't give it a new Dex number because it's just a variation of an existing Pokemon. Much like Megas and Alolan variants are. Which is why they don't get new Dex numbers either. The logic of a Pokemon not being new unless it gets a Dex number is consistent and sound throughout the history of the game.
Things like stats, appearance, types, and move pools have already changed between games for existing Pokemon and they don't try and claim they're new Pokemon. They just treat them as variations or minor changes of existing creatures.
Right.
Cosplay Pikachu has a different movepool and look. Do you also consider her to be a new Pokemon?
Cloud Strife
Member
How? It's still a sandshrew.
Neoleo2143
Member
Should've called it Iceschrew to see if they could have gotten away with it.
Belgian Dude
Member
If different forms can't be considered different Pokemon then I'll only have 3 Pokemon in my team in Sun & Moon
Because I'll have 4 Oricorios
Is cosplay Pikachu anywhere near as extreme of a difference as Alolan forms are? Does having one exclusive move make up the same difference as being biologically different capabilities that non-Alolan counterparts? Does it make any sense whatsoever that because some Pokemon experience insignificant changes, that there's this giant blanket over Pokemon who do become extremely different things? No, that doesn't make any fucking sense at all.
Snowshrew and Snowslash have a better ring to them IMO.
Yeah. They're all Oricorio after all.
It makes perfect sense. If they want people to consider these things to be new Pokemon then they never should have had radical form changes in the past like Sky Shaymin.
Diprosalic
Banned
those images are a mess for us colorblinds. i have no idea what you or the others think of any pokemon.
Cloud Strife
Member
Lmao, would have been hilarious
Sun and Moon are making a point to be very different from the historical mainline Pokemon game. These aren't slight quirks that make Alolan forms a little different, these are biologically diverse overhauls that are very clearly distinct from their non-Alolan forms. These aren't "minor changes", these are dramatic shakeups, and going by some lame ass standard dictated by no one straight up disallows any changes to the old formula.
If you have a yellow lab, and then get a black lab. You now have a new dog, even if they are both labs.
Like I said, it's convoluted, but I see where people are coming from. And again I don't really mind either way.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
By this logic, Deoxys is four different Pokemon.
Cloud Strife
Member
But it's not new. It's still a lab.
give up I am top tier debater
It's a new type of lab, not a new type of dog. Hence a new type of pokemon, not a new pokemon.
Sky Shaymin isn't a Shaymin from a non-Sinnoh region. Sky Shaymin is Shaymin by its own will changing its state. Alolan Vulpix can't flip flop between fire and ice just by holding an item. They evolved, actual evolution for the first time in the series, to adapt to their environment and survive. Is that not a very important distinction to make?
No.
I don't think we're going to change the others mind here so maybe we should just agree to disagree.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Not really. Crocodiles have adapted to their environment over thousands of years, but we still classify them as crocodiles. They aren't suddenly new animals just because they adapted to live. They're just seen as evolutionary variants of the crocodiles we know today.
Cloud Strife
Member
Yeah but we've already had this. Gastrodon West and East are still Gastrodon, despite clear evolutionary differences.
So you're saying that when one Pokemon who is VERY CLEARLY DISPLAYED TO HAVE CONTROL OVER THEIR FORM AND CAPABILITIES changes its form, it's the same as Pokemon naturally evolving into a new state, unable to go back and becoming extremely different in the process?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
If you want to go by that, see my point about how we classify actual animals, or what Cloud Strife has said about Gastrodon.
Also, I think your distinction of a Pokemon being able to change its form at will to one that does so out of naturally evolving isn't much of a distintion at all. They both fit almost all of the same criteria and you're picking and choosing when you want them to matter.
This is why going by the Pokedex is what most people do, it's very cut and dry. Whereas your method is completely up to interpretation.
Sparkedglory
Member
Not really, they're still labs...
I'd just like you all to take a step back and look at how fucking insane that argument sounds. Where you'd say a Pokemon undergoing minor aesthetic changes but given a new dex number is more of a new Pokemon than those that are dramatically different than their previous forms. Where you'd say that Pokemon that are expressly capable of changing their form at will are the same as Pokemon evolving over generations into extremely different states with no way of going back. East-West Gastrodan, sure, but even then that is not as extreme as the difference between Alolan forms and their originals. I'm sorry, but none of that is right. It is weirdly obtuse for little to no reason, and I'm not just going to go with it.
WonderRade
Member
I remember during the days of the daily smash 4 pic, people would argue some of the weirdest and silliest things.
At the end of the day there will be 4-5 ice and dark pokemon that were not available previously. /shrug
The real stickler IMO is whether or not the alolan forms are good enough for a lack of any other new types of non alolan variants. As a huge dark type fan, I would honestly be dissappointed if we didnt get any new dark types that aren't alolan variants. Even though im excited to see what alolan muk will bring to the table
At the end of the day there will be 4-5 ice and dark pokemon that were not available previously. /shrug
The real stickler IMO is whether or not the alolan forms are good enough for a lack of any other new types of non alolan variants. As a huge dark type fan, I would honestly be dissappointed if we didnt get any new dark types that aren't alolan variants. Even though im excited to see what alolan muk will bring to the table
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I didn't say this. In fact, I used this example to hammer home my point about how Game Freak specifically didn't give new Dex numbers to Pokemon who have those variations because they still classify them as the same Pokemon. Much like they're doing with Megas and Alolan forms.
At the end of the day, everything you said can be debated and left completely up to interpretation because there are tons of Pokemon with those aspects that you would have to overlook to get your point across. There is no hard and fast line you can draw because many Pokemon have one or many of the distinctions youre bringing up. Then we would have to debate where to draw the line. Whereas just going by the Pokedex (You know, the thing that exists specifically to catalog every Pokemon in existance.) is a much more clean cut and simple way to make these rulings.
Who is we? There are currently 15 extant species and 3 extant genera of crocodiles in the family Crocodylidae.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodylidae
You didn't, Kinsei did. I'm saying that dex number isn't the end all be all on whether or not something is a new Pokemon, and Alolan Pokemon are basically new Pokemon. That dex number argument feel like such a fucking cop out that it's actually irritating me.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Yes, but they're all still crocodiles. Much like regular and Alolan Grimers are both still Grimers. We don't consider them entirely new animals. Despite the fact that they might have evolved in different ways and have different strengths and weaknesses. We still catagorize them as variations of the same animal.
If you were to catalog every animal in existance you would make an entry for crocodiles, and then make a sub entry for every species of crocodile. In fact, thats exactly what is being done in that Wiki page you linked. There is an overall categorization for the animal, then it breaks it down into subfamily. Which is exactly what they're doing with Alolan forms of existing Pokemon in the Pokedex by the sound of things.
Except it is. That's literally why the Pokedex exists in the internal logic of the Pokemon universe. It was invented to catalog all existing Pokemon, therefore, everything with a new number is an new Pokemon.
Sparkedglory
Member
If this is legit irritating you then you have way too much time on your hands. This is a pointless argument in the grand scheme of things