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[Bounceounce]

If it's immoral that you can't get their consent to create them, then do you think it's immoral to end their life without their consent (abortion)?

Pre-conception you're working with the idea of a potentially fully birthed human being in your head.
After conception you're dealing with a non-thinking cluster of cells that can be observed, not even a person yet.
So yes I support abortions.

 

[The Mule]

I've always wondered how someone with this view is able to reconcile it with their own existence.

 

[RetroMG]

My answer to the problem is that I believe that life's worth it on balance. Yes you're rolling the dice on someone else's life when you have kids, but as long as you realize what's at stake and do everything in your power to raise your children to lead a good life, then (I think) it's a moral decision.

This. This is the best post I've seen so far.

I had a daughter a month or so ago, and before we got pregnant, my wife and I had a serious discussion about whether or not we should have kids, given the overall state of the world. Given recent events, I'm even more worried now that she's here. But my conclusion is that while the world is in bad shape, how do I know that my baby girl won't play a part in fixing it? I don't. I can't. She could be a politician someday who enacts meaningful change. She could be an astronaut who helps colonize a new planet to stop overcrowding. She could be a scientist who repairs our environment.

And if she's none of those things, I will love her anyway, because in a few short weeks, she has completely stolen my heart. The possibilities in this little girl are endless, and it's up to me to guide her as well as I can. Because ultimately, you can't win if you don't play.

 

[msdstc]

Pre-conception you're working with the idea of a potentially fully birthed human being in your head.
After conception you're dealing with a non-thinking cluster of cells that can be observed, not even a person yet.
So yes I support abortions.

Omg this is pure insanity.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

I'd say suicide routinely affects more than just the person committing suicide -- chiefly their friends and family. Their act can leave very deep, painful and lasting scars.

So can being forced to continue to live in a world that you had no choice in entering.

And I certainly hope you're not taking the parents into account when bringing up that it can affect their family.

 

[takriel]

Let's turn this around: Wouldn't it be immoral to not grant your unborn child the wish to be born?

 

[Media]

I understand not wanting to have kids. You do you. But this, from the wikihow:

"I recently learned about an interesting philosophy, antinatalism, which suggests that being born is actually harmful to humans.”

...they aren't fucking humans if they aren't born. There is not such thing as consent before birth. Hell there no such thing as consent before 18 in most places.

By this logic, I should murder my three children because they haven't consented to anything in their lives so far. It's baffling.

 

[BarringGaffner]

If I see a family with more than 2 kids... I get a little annoyed. And that increases the more and more that number grows. That is more to due with just the strain we are putting on the earth with numbers.

And no you're not crazy to have that stance.. it's a quite fine tuned philosophical point of view. Though I think that there is also an argument that it's immoral to deny someone existence/possible happiness.

 

[Bounceounce]

I don't think he considers suicide to be immoral. If his philosophy explores the idea of giving people full control of their lives, then he's basically in favour of being able to decide whether to live (be born) / die (cease to exist - suicide).

Or am I wrong?

I don't support suicide, as in if faced with a suicidal friend or even a stranger, I'll try to talk them out of it and through their issues, would never advocate for it unless it's physician assisted suicide.
But ultimately it's a personal choice up to them and it's their right.
Though they may want to consider the effect it could have on loved ones (if they have them),strangers or loved ones who find their body, and whatever would happen if they up and left their responsibilities.

 

[Speely]

Anyone can choose to get out at any time. No one can choose to get in.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I've always wondered how someone with this view is able to reconcile it with their own existence.

By thinking up stupid and nonsense philosophical hogwash.

 

[Mawnster]

Pre-conception you're working with the idea of a potentially fully birthed human being in your head.
After conception you're dealing with a non-thinking cluster of cells that can be observed, not even a person yet.
So yes I support abortions.

Yeah, not a person yet. Just like your idea of that baby who hasn't even been born yet. In fact, it might not be a fully birthed human being yet, but at least you got cells inside your body. That's more than... a whole lot of nothing, when you're thinking about that someone who doesn't exist yet.

I was honestly expecting you to be against this. I'm even more confused now.

Edit: I'm actually in favour of abortion. I'm just trying to follow Bounceounce's thoughts here, trying to apply his logic.

 

[Eumi]

Nobody exists to consent. This argument makes zero sense in any logical way. You can't act against the wishes of nothing.

If you don't wanna have kids that's perfectly fine, but it almost seems like you're just trying to justify not wanting them. Because if you are you don't need to, it's completely fine to not want children. We don't exactly have a low population crisis right now.

 

[PBalfredo]

Pre-conception you're working with the idea of a potentially fully birthed human being in your head.
After conception you're dealing with a non-thinking cluster of cells that can be observed, not even a person yet.
So yes I support abortions.

So their personhood actually degrades as they go from non-existence to actual existing fertilized embryo?

 

[Kas]

See, my thing about having is a kid is that I don't want them to have to experience the fear of death.

But yours is nuts, man.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

See, my thing about having is a kid is that I don't want them to have to experience the fear of death.

But yours is nuts, man.

That's a new one.

 

[BarringGaffner]

I understand not wanting to have kids. You do you. But this, from the wikihow:

"I recently learned about an interesting philosophy, antinatalism, which suggests that being born is actually harmful to humans.”

...they aren't fucking humans if they aren't born. There is not such thing as consent before birth. Hell there no such thing as consent before 18 in most places.

By this logic, I should murder my three children because they haven't consented to anything in their lives so far. It's baffling.

Speak to someone with depression/suicidal thoughts and you'll often hear that they didn't ask to be born.

Quite simply, to bring someone into this world means to force a being an immense amount of suffering, and death. Suffering and death are a reality for us but if you could avoid it, you would. Anti-natalism is stopping death and suffering.

Most people (including yourself?) believe that life has a net-positive so bringing a being into existence is worth it for that being. I personally believe that it is.. but I have been lucky to not been born into a life of depression!

 

[siddx]

I get not wanting to have kids. Girlfriend and I have both have zero interest and agree we are far too selfish about our money and time to have children.
And I understand not wanting to bring a child into a world that looks like it's spiraling down the drain at the moment.
But not having a child because you don't have their consent to birth them is one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard of.

 

[Darkman M]

Wow...

edit: Lmao wow......

 

[Airola]

Better to give the one who exists a chance to judge existence than one who has not existed.

This. Very well said.

Just because you think the world is doomed and the child will be living a horrible life without their consent, doesn't mean the child will be living a horrible life. But one thing you definitely are doing is to never let a new person to have a chance to experience nice things, such as love and the joy of tasting and smelling something wonderful.

 

[BarringGaffner]

See, my thing about having is a kid is that I don't want them to have to experience the fear of death.

But yours is nuts, man.

You are just coming to a similar conclusion for a different reason.

Think about it this way- you have a child and they grew up and say to you 'why did you bring me into a world where I will certainly die?'.

 

[Salty Rice]

Thanks OP gonna ask my kids first if they wanna be born.

 

[Stahsky]

Wow...

edit: Lmao wow......

basically this

 

[mrkgoo]

Pre-conception you're working with the idea of a potentially fully birthed human being in your head.
After conception you're dealing with a non-thinking cluster of cells that can be observed, not even a person yet.
So yes I support abortions.

I don't get this. How can you say that when before it is conceived it's a POTENTIAL fully birthed human but after conception it's just a ball of cells? How is the ball of cells not POTENTIALLY a fully
Birthed human being as well?

You've drawn a line in the sand that refers to a concept on one side but only the physical on the other.

Somehow you've reconciled that there is something akin to a human soul or essence waiting to be born, but once conceived, the ball of cells doesn't get that essence? When does it?

 

[Antiwhippy]

You are just coming to a similar conclusion for a different reason.

Think about it this way- you have a child and they grew up and say to you 'why did you bring me into a world where I will certainly die?'.

Because to experience death is to have lived.

 

[msdstc]

If I see a family with more than 2 kids... I get a little annoyed. And that increases the more and more that number grows. That is more to due with just the strain we are putting on the earth with numbers.

And no you're not crazy to have that stance.. it's a quite fine tuned philosophical point of view. Though I think that there is also an argument that it's immoral to deny someone existence/possible happiness.

I'm sorry but you are wayyyyyyyyy over thinking this.

 

[Kas]

You are just coming to a similar conclusion for a different reason.

Think about it this way- you have a child and they grew up and say to you 'why did you bring me into a world where I will certainly die?'.

That's my main reason. Its an issue that paralyzes me to this day, and has since I was 9.

I'm not 100% opposed to having kids. If it happens, it happens. But I'm not going to run looking to have one.

 

[Addnan]

So how should we go about creating more humans? Just trying to understand that part.

 

[Mendrox]

Pre-conception you're working with the idea of a potentially fully birthed human being in your head.
After conception you're dealing with a non-thinking cluster of cells that can be observed, not even a person yet.
So yes I support abortions.

Okay this is digusting. Please choose other words..wow. Crazy crazy, doesnt your body tell you to get out and make babies?Cluster of cells...lol

You sound like from another World Sorry, but perfect avatar to imagine who wrote this.

 

[mrkgoo]

This. Very well said.

Just because you think the world is doomed and the child will be living a horrible life without their consent, doesn't mean the child will be living a horrible life. But one thing you definitely are doing is to never let a new person to have a chance to experience nice things, such as love and the joy of tasting and smelling something wonderful.

There's this too. The notion of a "horrible life" can be subjective. Some people live the happiest of lives within their own means and confines of what they were born in, even if one might consider their life "horrible".

 

[orthodoxy1095]

You are just coming to a similar conclusion for a different reason.

Think about it this way- you have a child and they grew up and say to you 'why did you bring me into a world where I will certainly die?'.

...so that they could experience the world?

Because to experience death is to have lived.

Basically this.

 

[BarringGaffner]

I'm sorry but you are wayyyyyyyyy over thinking this.

Welcome to anti-natalism. I don't agree with it, just explaining it. There are plenty of philosphical ideas that are fun to think about.

There's a reason why people that think less have way more children.

 

[Ozigizo]

So how should we go about creating more humans? Just trying to understand that part.

There's literally no way, beyond somehow getting answers from God or something.

 

[Patrick S.]

 

[BarringGaffner]

Because to experience death is to have lived.

I personally agree.

 

[Kas]

So how should we go about creating more humans? Just trying to understand that part.

I'm not saying others shouldn't have kids, just that I don't want to.

 

[DOWN]

Like it was immoral for you to be born? It is immoral for anyone to be born?

I'm not saying others shouldn't have kids, just that I don't want to.

"I don't want to" is different from the OP argument that anyone being born is an immoral act against consent

 

[msdstc]

Welcome to anti-natalism. I don't agree with it, just explaining it. There are plenty of philosphical ideas that are fun to think about.

There's a reason why people that think less have way more children.

No I get it, however saying denying life is immoral is insane... By that logic unless you're constantly using your body for reproduction while you are capable, you are immoral. I and just about everyone ever have denied existence to countless lives by this logic.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

I'm sorry but you are wayyyyyyyyy over thinking this.

The decision to have a child is probably one of the biggest decisions that a person can make in life. I'm not sure you can really over think it.

 

[msdstc]

The decision to have a child is probably one of the biggest decisions that a person can make in life. I'm not sure you can really over think it.

This thread is absolute proof you can over think it.

 

[Randam]

How do you even know all these names?

For example: Don't believe in God, but didn't know for years that people call them selfs atheists.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

If you can explain how an un-conceived child can provide consent to being born, I'll join your cause.

 

[Breads]

I don't think you understand how morals work if your stance is anti-social and anti-biological imperative.

 

[Crayon]

Now that you mention it, Bounceounce, being conceived is the ultimate violation. The one that proceeds all others.

But my kids are going to be born as long as they are under my roof.

 

[Greddleok]

I would never choose so as I wouldn't want to force anyone into existence without consent, as it crosses a threshold in my personal moral code.

Is there an example where you could get consent from someone before you bring them into existence?

 

[Eumi]

The decision to have a child is probably one of the biggest decisions that a person can make in life. I'm not sure you can really over think it.

The OP and other people who follow his philosophy are arguing that the moral thing to do is to allow our species to die, undoing thousands of years of societal advancement, purely on the off chance that a child might not have wanted to be alive (post-birth I might add).

When the conclusion you've reached involves the self-extinction of a species I'd say you've probably overthought something somewhere.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Holy shit, is Tumblr leaking into NeoGaf?

Where have you been, my man?

 

[Laieon]

Nope, complete opposite. My number one goal in life is to be a dad.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I'm trying to figure out if OP is pro- or anti-abortion off the back of this.

<head scratch>

 

[Antiwhippy]

This is kinda related to a problem I've always struggled with though.

Is it immoral to have kids that will have birth defects that effect them for the rest of their lives?

Or is it more immoral to choose to not have them because of those problems?