ElBoxyBrown
Banned
An Evangelical Church isn't gonna want Ashley Judd to talk about the problems women face online. Completely irrelevant.
Ashley Judd calls out gaming industry in TEDtalk for hypocritical stance on GamerGate
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An Evangelical Church isn't gonna want Ashley Judd to talk about the problems women face online. Completely irrelevant.
Okay, WTF is wrong with the deaths of lara in the latest tomb raider? I never felt that they made those just to show abuse towards womans, it was just gore death that were included in a game that happened to be starred by a woman (which also kicks ass)
Isn't like people were up arms when marcus fenix suffered terrible deaths in gears of wars
Isn't like people were up arms when marcus fenix suffered terrible deaths in gears of wars
Last time I played Tomb Raider, I tried to avoid getting her maimed and killed - it's kind of the goal of the game to survive that experience and to grow stronger?
By the way: do you realize who actually wrote Tomb Raider? Is Rhianna Pratchett sexist?
And GTA is a sandbox. You can kill as many or as few people as you would like. They even toned down the 'scoring' of killing. If they add a female character to the mix next time, I hope that this example will also no longer be used, because it's pretty shaky as of right now.
I never said she was helpless. I actually like
Luna despite the issues with her character but the way she dies versus the way Noctis is killed is not handle the same at all. Even the death of Aerith is handled better. She is killed because she is a threat to Sephiroth and his plans while Luna is killed just to make Noctis sad.
The only part of the Lara Croft deaths in the Tomb Raider reboot that bugged me was how... overly sexual her voice actress sounded. It was bad enough that I felt guilty playing the game when someone was in the room next to me because without visuals it sounds like something completely different.
So you're basing your opinion on second hand biased knowledge of the game? Always a good position to argue from.
And? Should she explode in a clowd of pink smoke while the male enemies die horribly? What is your point and how does it relate to my original comment: the primary gameplay goal of TR is NOT to see Croft maimed and dumped for sport.
Didn't read the whole thread but I'd hazard a guess she's talking about the Dying Light statuette, and saw it in one of the Sarkeesian videos.
There's definitely a lot of misogyny and the industry itself is largely to blame, though personally I see it more as a result of the incessant pandering to male teenage geeky virgins than the other way around. That is, the games individually are not really to blame, just the amount of them is slanted towards a lack of diversity, in topics even more so than the treatment of characters. The games are not misogynistic quite often, but they feature gore and competition and power fantasies and therefore speak to 16 year old boys who feel not powerful in real life, leading to misogynistic communities. Meaning the publishers are more at fault here than the developers. I guess what I want to say is I always found that Leigh Alexander was much more bang on the money than Sarkeesian.
KazenY2J
Member
I don't know about this one.
But I would attribute that to GTA modeling, in video game form, the seedy/criminal/taboo aspects of city life.
It isn't a case of the game allowing the player to have sex with any woman, which I would consider an issue, it's a case of them representing female prostitution for a heterosexual protagonist, like they represent drug-dealing, or car stealing, or any number of criminal activities for the player to engage in.
Because it's a unserious game where the whole point is to arouse the player. Not be a serious story like Metal Gear or Final Fantasy.
Games like DOAX exist for the purpose of sexualization. It's the whole point.
Games like Metal Gear and Final Fantasy aren't, and their characters that are objectified are expected to be treated seriously by the player, yet they are treated in an unserious way by the game and no justification is given to the way they are.
Personally, I was appalled by the brutality of her death(s) while playing it. It's only when you die often or watch a supercut of all the possible death sequences on YT that you really notice that moaning thing.
Oh look already we have the slew of excuses of why X isn't really exploiting women in various games.
So blatant sexualization isn't sexist because its on purpose? Wow...
So blatant sexualization isn't sexist because its on purpose? Wow...
Jeevesmeister
Banned
You're willfully missing the point of the metaphor. TED Talks are a broken, worthless platform that is a pseduointellectual "enlightened" speech similar in concept to the evangelical megachurch sermon. There's no room to say this is bullshit, only positivity is allowed, and if you read the article I linked, misinformation is commonly spread through TED Talks.
It's a bad way to talk about this problem, which has admittedly been getting a lot better as of late, yet doesn't get due recognition. I mean hell, when Dishonored 2 pushed the female lead, some people were mad it wasn't an exclusively female playable character.
meltingparappa
Member
Apparently some people in this very thread at comfortable throwing Rhianna Pratchett and Lara's voice actress under the bus as doing a complete, possibly purposeful disservice to women.
Does anyone think that a cartoonishly despicable male voice director repeatedly told Lara's voice actress to make her sounds increasingly sexual, despite her protest? Or if it subjectively makes you uncomfortable, do you deflect into a universal nefarious intent.
Sexualized violence is still violence and the refrigerator trope isn't necessarily sexualized either, so I'm not sure why you can't see that games have had "maiming and dumping them for sport"
You would have a point if the male characters were given the same care for their death sequences...
SomedayTheFire
Member
The DOAX excuses are the funniest, "it's not exploiting women because it was DESIGNED to exploit women"
John Kowalski
Banned
Not to hammer on this point, because it's fruitless and likely not indicative of Judd's intent, but no game has to require you to do something to be complicit in activities that are secondary to its intended pathway. Games don't need to require you to kill women to be complacent and/or participant in gratuitous violence against women specifically. Often representations of sex workers in games include a number of indicators that explicitly show sex workers are victims of sexual and physical violence, often completely disregarding the ethical concerns this suggests by instead making use of those battered/dead women to elicit an atmosphere of fear and decadence. Such games don't require the player to kill those women to be disregardful and complacent about the violence that was acted upon them.
And it should come to no one's surprise that, yes, those things work as intended because it reflects attitudes of a society that feels just as little about sex workers.
But see, I agree with the things you listed (still didn't read the links, though), my point is precisely that it's an issue within the industry itself, and not just "you don't do anything because you want to sell to GamerGate". I think the more likely answer, and the list you made support this, is that a big part of the issue comes from inside the industry.
Shit treatment of minorities in games is, in my opinion, a reflection of the creators, not just marketing forcing great people to do things against their will to sell to sexists/racists/whatever.
It puts them in a detached position that I don't agree they're in. That's the reason I pointed to the noticeable improvement in AAA games in recent years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF_SGUHFWB8
Listening to it, I realize that he sounds like he was climaxing a lot...
That's why it is called TED Talks and not TED Roundtables, Panels or anything like that. And it's not "pseudointellectual". They're not calling John & Jane Doe to do a quick presentation on the subjects - these are people who work, study and dedicate their time to the subjects they present.
I mean, come on - there's nothing stopping you from researching more about a subject that has caught your attention there (even disputing any of these points, since your criticism is on its one-sidedness). You're not forced to agree on every word they speak, either. Think for yourself.
Why does Lara meet horrible gory ends which are meticulously animated while Nathan Drake doesn't get it anywhere near as bad in the Uncharted games even though he's in the same kinds of danger?
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Everything that she said isn't wrong. GG still exist, women still get treated like shit online, games still have a long way to go for better treatment of female characters. TED Talks exist to put out some ideas, not immediately cause revolutions.
But Dishonored 2 exists so I guess sexism is over, huh?
It's never over.
KazenY2J
Member
What about actual porn games? Also sexist and misogynistic?
chillybright
Banned
Was she referring GTA games?
meltingparappa
Member
Because they are different developers with a purposeful prerogative to achieve different tones in their games? Despite sharing the same genre and gameplay conventions, it's not an apples to apples comparison.
Back-In-Black
Banned
I thought
he killed her because she was the Oracle to the same Gods that spurned Ardyn and made him what he is.
My point is fine as is thank you. I'm not playing as random Henchmen #354. I'm playing as Lara Croft and no deciding not to have cinematic deaths for the NPCs does not render my point moot. I mean really, what an absolutely tedious distinction.
Because Crystal Dynamics isn't Naughty Dog. Seriously what is with these retorts.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
It's possible. Being a woman does not exclude you from being a misogynist. But I couldn't conclude that based on what I'm criticizing as she did not design the game, nor did she render the scenes people criticized, nor did she direct the voice acting for those scenes.
I'm sure women could also have performed those roles, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume men were responsible for those specific tasks.
I would too. But it's the fact that it exists. Nothing in games is created for players to never see and to not be entertaining on some level to their players. At release those scenes generated a lot of buzz. and considering the performance of the game, I don't think the result of that was negative.
I'm basing it on the take away from people who played and enjoyed the game. The tone was always more jocular than critical when people bring up the hooker killing and seemed to inspire interest in those around me moreso than disgust.
Again this is not a new criticism. There were a lot of articles and threads on here about it around release. Clueless Gamer even made it a focal point of the humor in its episode promoting the game.
Because that kind of violence is not part of the UnCharted formula. It's like complaining that Indiana Jones is not a slasher horror movie, because of the dangers he faced.
That is also why I am more of a fan of Tomb Raider - the survival element of the game is very strong and they don't fool around while Drake is more of a mainstream smile-and-gun hero.
SomedayTheFire
Member
I can't make a blanket statement on that, I have never once in my life seen a "porn game". But porn is a very very sexist industry, you can extrapolate what you want from that.
Part of it is that after the 1983 crash video games were sold as toys for boys instead of the unisex electronics they used to be.
Companies since then have largely refused to change this, and we're just now starting to see game devs and publishers recognize that straight white men are not the only people who play video games.
Now we're seeing a lot more games now with protagonists of different races, genders, sexual orientations, ethnic backgrounds, and more. Certainly a lot more than we did a few years ago. I can't recall that many games in the 2000s and the 90s where you half extremely grandular character customization or the option to play form a choice of a variety of different characters.
I agree. As a gay guy, I often do the same with attractive men and there's nothing wrong with it either way. What's problematic is a) the imbalance of how much women tend to be portrayed in ways that invite sexualisation versus how much men tend to be portrayed in such ways and b) when people are only able to see other people (in this case especially women) as sexual objects regardless of the context. For example when a politician's form-fitting outfit becomes more important than the contents of their speech (again, sth that, in our current society, would mostly happen to a woman but the principle can theoretically apply to men, as well). There's nothing wrong with sexually objectifying someone, what's wrong is denying or dismissing someone as a person simply because one finds them sexually attractive or the idea that being sexually attractive (especially being a sexually attractive female) or presenting oneself in any manner that could be construed as sexual even just slightly precludes you from being anything else. To some people, those may be one and the same thing (and to be fair, I'm not sure if I've done a great job explaining the difference but I don't really know how else to put it right now) but I don't think they are.
Most female protagonists don't get similar style death animations too. I'm struggling to think of another.
I can think of Leon Kennedy in RE4 and Issac Clarke in Dead Space though.
theshape31
Member
.
Well Tomb Raider (2013) had some really gruesome death scenes and went out of their way to hurt Lara. In the very beginning of the game she gets punched in the face and then has a large nail stabbed in her gut. I'm sure that the developers had no ill intent but I know it bothered people.
Anyway, I agree with her. It's even small stuff like Shepard punching that reporter. I never thought it was funny, it just seemed really unnecessary.
Yeah, this one bugged me. I'm a freaking OP as fuck Batman in space... punch a civilian lady doing her job? Really? Is this a cop simulator?
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I disagree with her statement entirely. The gaming industry is a useful scapegoat. I don't know of any game in particular that is making anywhere near hundreds of millions, much less billions of dolalrs, where the explicit purpose of the game is to do as she suggests.
She's being a pretty big hypocrite here. She's tossing out accusations that can just as easily be associated with the Television and Movie industry. is she so eager to say the same about hollywood or the film industry in general? Maybe she did and I just didn't read it, but I'm focusing specifically on her making billions remark.
She's being a pretty big hypocrite here. She's tossing out accusations that can just as easily be associated with the Television and Movie industry. is she so eager to say the same about hollywood or the film industry in general? Maybe she did and I just didn't read it, but I'm focusing specifically on her making billions remark.
RoboticWater
Banned
They're different games. The Tomb Raider devs were going for a darker tone. I'd argue that they don't pull it off very well, but their intent wasn't driven by misogyny. They were likely aping the absurd death scenes of survival horror games.
You can condemn an entire species to genetically engineered genocide. Punching a sensationalist reporter for being annoying isn't exactly the worst thing you can do. Under the purview of Renegade, it's pretty consistent with the rest of your actions.
In fairness mate that's down to awkward VA more than anything else.
Guardian Monkey
Member
when youre still making billions of dollars off games that maim and dump women for sport.
What does this even mean? Is she talking about gaming online where this happens? I watched the video but am confused by this statement.
What does this even mean? Is she talking about gaming online where this happens? I watched the video but am confused by this statement.
So because they didn't intend for it to be like that, its not a problem?
Yeah, when I die a lot in that game, I swear my wife overhears and thinks I'm watching porn.
If Shepard is female does she do the same thing? If so, technically it would be more sexist if it played out differently depending on the sex you choose. It's wrong to hit anyone, whether you or the other person is female or male, regardless.Well Tomb Raider (2013) had some really gruesome death scenes and went out of their way to hurt Lara. In the very beginning of the game she gets punched in the face and then has a large nail stabbed in her gut. I'm sure that the developers had no ill intent but I know it bothered people.
Anyway, I agree with her. It's even small stuff like Shepard punching that reporter. I never thought it was funny, it just seemed really unnecessary.
Sad but unsurprising to see that nearly all discussion in this thread is hung up on one single comment made in her speech and pure speculation around that comment. The speech was mostly about online interactions / harassment and how she is dealing with it. The comment everyone is discussing is being ripped out of this talk - both in this thread and on Polygon for their headline - and the speculation around it makes it look like the purpose of the talk was to attack specific ( types of ) videogames when that is not at all what the talk was about.
The OP also really needs a direct link to the video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSf6nij-SdA
The OP also really needs a direct link to the video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSf6nij-SdA
No it isn't. The point of the game is to create a fantasy for the player. You see similar things in other media for every gender and sexuality.
You've got romance novels, fanfiction, porn videos, visual novels and more that all attempt to cater to a person's sexual desires. And there is nothing inherently wrong with that.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
There was that time she told her story of being sexually harassed by a studio executive in Variety.
So nah, what she's doing doesn't read as hypocritical to me at all.
its the usual MO for the community, people latch onto one small point about how its not perfectly worded, so the person speaking is completely wrong and 'insert excuses' means there isn't a real problem.
and people circle around that instead of the actual problem.
You're misunderstanding or my point is not clear enough. I am saying that they're not intentionally and explicitly saying "let's sell to the bigots", but instead I am saying that they have structural and ingrained issues that make products that are comfortable to GG. The dominance of white straight dudes everywhere, the invisibility of black and brown people, the sexual objectification of (white) women, the invisibility and ridicule of LGBTQ people, and so on. These things are in the products out there.
And you have specific cases of publishers and marketing doing racist and sexist shit
- Publishers not wanting to greenlight Remember Me because it was a black female lead
- Microsoft marketing telling Lionhead that they can't put a black female lead on the cover of Fable 2
- Bioshock Infinite having to remove Elizabeth or whatever her name is from the game cover
- Naughty Dog being asked by Sony to relegate Ellie from the front of the cover to the back of visual piece
- Activision forcing United Front Games to change True Crime Hongkong from an original female protagonist to a male one
- Their silence and neutrality when Gamergate was a thing.
Guardian Monkey
Member
i think everyone is aware of that. But seeing that the comment wasnt clear or flushed out enough is what the question is. Of course the video game part is going to be brought out here, this is a gaming site.
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